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My PC's will post here, hopefully. Let me preface by saying that I am not sure if I did a bad job running the encounter, or if it " the hook " was not set up well.
Here is what happened.
I replaced the Rogue, with the doppleganger, and he was cooperative. In short, without having to type for an hour, he had several occasions to murder party members, but since it said that he was "gathering info" I did not encourage him to do so. They, and I, were also disappointed when the suprise was sprung. Having the Dopplegangers look like the PC's, after having encoutered Dopplegangers, was no suprise at all. They just assumed that they were Dopplegangers, and attacked right away. In hindsight, I would have the Dopplegangers that are tied up, look like merchants or such, with the PC mixed in there. Also, having the Dopplegangers be pudly ones in that room, well, they just waded through them.
I'll let the guys post here, and you can read their experience, and perhaps other GM's will benefit from this. I like the adventure, and it has alot of promise, but I think a few tweaks need to be made.
Pat
On a related note, I would never tell my players about this board. Most of mine aren't the inquisitive type, but human nature would have them reading all these threads if the link was just handed to them.
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That too is my biggest concern/fear/anger source that my players have caught on to these wonderful boards and are gleaning them for details. So I keep dropping not-so-subtle hints like this that the first hint of preternatural knowledge of the AP that the campaign will take a dramatic left-turn to something less heroic...
Back on topic, the whole doppelganger theme to Hall of Harsh Reflections has had more of a negative feedback thus far. Whether this is because of the complex manner the game needs to be metagamed to pull it off well, or because it's just another doppelganger plot, I don't know. I do appreciate reading other people's thoughts on the matter, even if they're players. ::sardonic grin::
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I played the Bard (I'm NOT a rogue!) who was replaced by the doppleganger in Pat's game. I think it was run well and for the most part the adventure was a lot of fun. Being the spy was great. Trying to keep my cover but also trying to weaken party and encourage them to waste power was a blast.
My big problem with the adventure was the surprise encounter.
1) Why would the dopplegangers all look like the party... after encountering dozens of DGs, there was no surprise. The characters just waded in with murderous fury.
2) It was also very frustrating that after watching the party slaughter 3/4 of my DG friends, the final trap was sprung with such weak opposition. Granted we are a pretty solid combat party, but those 3 DGs were gone in 2 rounds. Certainly the GM can beef them up, but as is, I can't see any group with a decent warrior having a problem with this encounter.
3) Ix was supposed to be gathering information on the party, but there didn't seem to be a way that any information I had could have affected the surprise fight.
A couple of suggestions - (I haven't read the module so these are just from a player's perspective)
Move the CLW wand from the water/logs room to some place after the surprise encounter or lower the charges on it. I think the party was pretty beaten up until we found that. Or at least give it optional locations depending on how depleted the party is.
Give Ixiaxian a better defined role and have his work pay off somehow. Maybe have a selection of DGs available for the GM to tailor the encounter based on what Ix is able to uncover about the PCs.
Also, shouldn't Ixiaxian have some knowledge about the HQ that he could use to steer the PCs into traps?
Sorry for the length of the post and for the overall negative tone. I really do think the AP is excellent.
On a lighter note, having watched his DG allies fall so quickly, and knowing he was next, Ix did the only thing that would make a difference... shoved his spear into the bound and helpless character... rolled a critical and killed myself.
-Lylo
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Hi all.
I too play in Pat's game. I play a Grey Elf Wizard who has taken the Generalist Wizardry racial subtitution level from Races of the Wild. At the time of this session, I was just a plain old 7th level wizard who, after this session, went up a level and took my first level of Force Missile Mage (PRC from Dragon Magazine #328).
Anyway, I don't have a lot more to say than what Pat or Lylo has said already except that I really think the best way for a DM to alter the encounter would be to change three of the four Doppelgangers that were tied up in the room to just some random city folk instead of the player characters. The fourth tied-up person of course would stay the actual character.
That way the party wouldn't assume they were all doppelgangers and would lead to some more interesting interactions between the actual tied-up character and his doppelganger which is, by now, a member of the party.
Anyway, I did like the idea of giving the PC who got replaced some extra experience points but only if they do a good job. In our party's case, the guy who played Lylo ended up having to kill himself (actually the Lylo doppelganger killed Lylo) and we had no inkling that a switch had taken place. He definitely deserved the extra exp.
I must say I also like the pace at which the game moves and the speed we seem to be advancing. The relatively frequent level-ups (about one every two to three weeks) is quite refreshing and keeps the game interesting.
I recruited the party paladin to be the one replaced, and the ruse went off without a hitch. When the rest of the PC's found the doppelganger PC's, they too assumed they were all doppelgangers, and attacked. However, I had the player who was playing the doppelganger/paladin continue to do so, while I ran his PC. So, when the party wizard dropped a fireball into the room, he roasted the real paladin. Then, the player playing the doppelganger/paladin, in a coup of role-playing genius, actually had the doppelganger attack his OWN character, trying to, in effect, kill himself. It was a shocker to my group when the found out what was really going on.
In a related note, I have banned my players from these boards, with the threat of no xp awards should it become obvious they have been sneaking peeks.
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Thanks for the posts Renspar and Lylo. I am really enjoying running this AP, and have made some minor cosmetic changes, to avoid TPK's, as y'all other GM's may notice. This adventure could easily have been a TPK in a few occasions, but having gotten this far into it, and really liking the makeup of the current party, unless they do something completely dumb, I do not want a TPK.
Lylo killing himself with a critical was really funny. The extra XP for the guy playing the DG was my idea, because he did such a good job with hiding the fact that he was not Lylo. I gave him a CR4 xp for roleplaying. I kept laughing to myself, that the rest of the party never questioned where his Bardic abailities suddenly disappeared to. Really cool in that sense
OK guys, back off the AOW boards with you.... Like the last guy said, if I even THINK there is OOC knowledge being used...XP reduction..this means you Renspar..
On a related note, I would never tell my players about this board. Most of mine aren't the inquisitive type, but human nature would have them reading all these threads if the link was just handed to them.
I told my players I was part of a secret cult of DMs and we held meetings deep in the woods by the light of torches. Not sure they buy that but at least it does not give away my true location and explains my tendency to call upon the authority of 'all DMs everywhere do it this way'.
Lylo had some great suggestions - move the wand based on party strength/weakness, have Ix be better defined, have Ix lead the party into the traps at the headquarters. Why is it the author's responsibility to "fix" those scenarios? 'Cause I don't know, but, gee, I thought that's what the DM is for.
Ix should have info on the hideout- and it doesn't take too much to alter it so that he has been feeding info to his friends all along. For example, whatever character gets replaced recieves a letter from a courier (another doppleganger), stating that some one in the city wants to converse with him about something (whatever works), so he has an excuse to slip off now and again. Then he meets with his doppleganger allies and tells them what he's learned. You could do this all "off-camera" or actually have the player step out of the room and tell the DM what his doppleganger spy has learned.
The DM slips all the information relating to the dopplegangers that Ix would know, so he can help guide the party into the traps. Say that, before they head off to the warehouse, Ix needs to go talk to his "friend" one last time (inform the others of the coming attack). When he comes back, he says that his friend was concerned, knew something about the warehouse (make a convincing backstory here), and told him a bit about the lay-out, so Ix be the guide.
Also, I believe the point of the room with the bound dopplegangers wasn't to fool the characters into thinking they weren't dopplegangers, but to make them ask the question: is one of us a spy, and who? This is easily facilitated if the DM has pulled each member off seperatly before hand to talk about something, fostering suspicion. The party can just assume that they're all lying, wade in, and kill them, but in doing so, they'll slay one of their own and leave Ix in a perfect position for an even better betrayal. Imagine their faces several rooms later, after killing all the fake hostages, when Ix reveals himself, and they realize they slaughtered one of their own.
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Great posts, thanks for responding.
Jolly - hilarious. When did Ix reveal himself? Right after the fight or later?
SirMarcus - yea, but what's the point of a published adventure if the GM has to rework too much of it. Some sure, but hopefully there is guidance in the adventure (might be - didn't read it, so don't kill me if there was)
Saern - Soca, his eyes open!!
Better that it goes that way. I didn't read it, so I don't know how that encounter was written. A couple of points from playing it.
My character was bound and couldn't escape while the DGs could. Seems like it would go better if all the people in the room were either equally bound or equally um.. unbound.
Maybe Ix's goal should have been to convince the party to kill one of their own (what's 3 more DGs when so many have died), then he could be revealed at the end with the bad guy making a speech like... "good? look what 'good' you have done... paladin!" Then Ix reveals himself and mayhem ensues.
Again, not sure how it was written.
Thanks again for the great responces.