Hello there!
I am readying the book and will start the campaign for my players this saturday. We will have a PC playing a paladin of WeeJas (Kelemvor), and I have seen that the temple will have a big role in the story later. Please let me know how to introduce the NPC WeeJas clerics to my PC who will have detect evil ready all the time. I has no chance to read the whole book yet, so i am asking for your advice on handling these NPCs at the start of the game. Can someone please summarize what the exact situation with them will be later? I saw that everyone NPC in the temple is evil. Are they like that from the beginning or do they s!+# alignment during the course of the adventure? Or should i tell my PC paladin that he detects evil in the whole place, yet he still serves the clergy? Please advise! Thanks a lot!
Well, first of all a paladin does not have detect evil all the time. It is a standard action to activate the detect evil ability and you should also look at the description of detect evil spell so you know exactly how it works. Both you and your player should be aware that you have to concentrate for 3 rounds to pinpoint a particular evil aura.
Now, the detect evil problem should not be news to neither Ike nor Embril, and they should have counter measures for it. The simplest solution is to give them a headband of undetectable alignment each. That's a wondrous item that gives them continuous use of the spell undetectable alignment. Price: 6,000 gp.
thanks mate i now all this (and what i ment was that a paladin of kelemvor probably had tried his detect thoughts ability in the temple at least once for 3 round in his life :)), and the headband/ring/whatever of undetectable alignment might prove to be a good solution... though i am not sure what really happens. can you summarize that for me? i saw that Embril and Ike are members of that secret organization, but are they like that from the beginning? also i am not sure how to play an evil cleric of kelemvor... but i will try figuring out some points whre the paladin PC might have conflicts with them... any help would be appretiated :) thanks!
...Also, while the main NPCs may be evil, remember that the Cagewrights / Ebon Triad Cultists are both secret societies. The average temple acolyte and various support people on the grounds have no idea what the higher ups are involved with, and the Ebon Triad is an off-shoot cult working without the official sanction of all three faiths.
If your Paladin will be visiting the church of Wee Jas early on, you can simply have Ike or any of the other specific NPCs that come into play later simply not around or unavailable. The Cathedral of Wee Jas is the largest church, so your Paladin can easily interact with faithful clergy that have no idea what's simmering in their own temple.
These guys are major villians for the campaign - I wouldn't try to keep the PCs from figuring this out. The hardcover encourages you to make Wee Jas a nemesis.
Random thoughts:
1) Don't do the headband thing. That's just the DM nerfing the paladin.
2) Wee Jas is Lawful Neutral. A Lawful Evil cleric is certainly possible for this faith.
3) All of the clerics aren't evil. Just the higher ups.
4) So what if they are evil? Being evil isn't against the law in Cauldron. The paladin will have to catch them doing something.
5) So what if the paladin finds out? What's a low level paladin going to do against the high level clerics from the most powerful church in town? If he causes problems, makes public accusations, etc. then he's going to be thrown out of the church, roughed up, and maybe killed if he doesn't keep his mouth shut.
6) For public appearances where a detect evil is likely, like a church service, I think Ambril/Ike could have a Misdirection cast on them. If the paladin tries this during a private meeting:
DM: Are you sure you want to do that? You're going to take a standard action, wave your hand, and detect evil on the high priestess of your church?
Player: Yep
Abril: WHAT ARE YOU DOING? (player continues) HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THE CHOOSEN OF WEE JAS! LEARN YOUR PLACE UNDERLING! :: draws mace, smacks paladin unconscious ::
In summary, these are the bad guys. Let the paladin find out they are evil if he wants. Let the clerics come down hard on him if he makes trouble. Make the clerics into enemies. It will make it all the sweeter when the player can eventually move against them.
DMFTodd, you are so right about this. I will make the PC paladin know from the beginning that there is taint in their temple, will lure him into organising the resistance from within the church, be cast out for some made up heressy if he interferes as a low level character, and create a whole lot of drama about the whole thing :) I will also place him in the royalty as the younger brother of Todd Vanderboren, the evil adpoted child of the Vanderborens who will make his life even harder. This will give the game lots of cool RPG elements. Now i have to figure out some similarly complicated background for the two other players... Thanks Todd, and guys! You've been lots of help for me!
I should point out that Embril wears a Ring of the Thirteen which provides her with undetectable alignment automatically. She has this as written for the very reason that she does not want some random paladin to know what she is up to.
Ditto.
My group was Evil also, with both a priest of Vecna and one of Erythnul; I played up the angle that they were working together to "root out and destroy the heretics in the Church" - the paladin could play on the same angle.
Of course, he will be fighting an uphill battle, calling on Ike's superiors to help him once he's discovered the heretical Ebon Triad member Ike Iverson...imagine his horror when he learns that Embril is in on it, also - and that he's just warned her that someone is on their trail!
M
will do exactly that mate! :)
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Actually, *let* the Paladin detect Ike as evil. If he does this, he'll go report it to Embril -- who will do nothing. After all, Kelemvor is LN, and it takes all kinds to run the church ...
Everyone will suspect Ike, and when the confrontation comes, they'll have the irony that he was just a pawn in a bigger game.
There's an inherent problem anytime you allow a character to play a paladin of a god who could potentially have evil clergy. The paladin must not associate with evil characters and yet, in the heirarchy of the church, if an evil master is above him, it is also against the paladin's code to disobey legitimate authority. IMC paladins cannot serve gods that may have evil priests and must follow cleric rules for being within one step of the god's alignment. So a paladin could be a cleric of Saint Cuthbert (since he doesn't have evil priests) but not Wee Jas. If you think about it, it really makes a lot of sense given her portfolio. Wee Jas is a death goddess and she's going to grant divine abilities to a paladin, the foe of evil and undead?
This is just my opinion of course. I've heard of DMs allowing this before, but it always leads to conflict that either spoils the flavor of the paladin if the DM lets the paladin get away with it or spoils a character's paladinhood once he tells the evil priest of his temple that he respectfully disobeys because he's not allowed to associate with evil (catch-22).
I beleive the original poster was mentioning the Kelemvor possibility from the Realms. Remember, in the Realms, Kelemvor's paladins are an order of undead slayers, and have a separate heirarchy. They must be respectful of the clergy, but are not neccissarily under all of them. Many of the evil members of Kelemvor's clergy are holdouts from Myrkul's faith.
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Remember clerics radiate the alignment of their deity, not their own personal alignment. Thus Wee Jas, particularly if you are full on Greyhwak (I understand in this case we are looking at FR) is LN(E), thus all her clerics would radiate an faint evil taint even if they where lawful good (although personally I think LG Wee Jas clerics would be mental). She is from the third layer of Acheron, and Acheron is not a nice place, thus the planes LN(E).
Have a similar problem in my campaign in that we have a crusader(paladin) of Pelor (and thus a good as opposed to lawful biased paladin) and a LN cloistered cleric/wizard/mystic theurge of Wee Jas in the party. The party paladin can detect very faint evil about the Wee Jasian but has maxed ranks in Knowledge(religion) and thus understands how the holy aura rules work without having to metagame, he is also not a religiously bigotted zealot either. He is aware the Cathedral is evil though (which with all those unhallowed and desceration spells is hardly suprising).
Thus he associates with his friend (who he is positive is LN)but won't set foot in the Cathedral, he and Ike already loathe each other. Actually the Wee Jasian and Ike loathe each other as well but that's by the by. Check my other posts as well for a lot of the background to all this. Also older GH Wee Jas fluff makes it clear she does not like chaotic undead, such as vampires, running around causing mayhem, that is the province of Nerull, thus oddly enough the crusader of Pelor and the Mystic Theurge of Wee Jas philosophically have some aeas of common ground.
So how would this work for FR? Just say that it is well known that the vast majority of the Cathedral's clergy are known to have been Myrkulites in the past and thus the evil bent of the Cathedral is explained. Additionally as Kelemvor is LN then his clergy's holy aura's are also LN NOT LE.
Check [url]http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050329a[/url], specifically "A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see the detect evil spell description for details), no matter what the cleric's alignment actually is. For example, a neutral good cleric of a lawful good deity has auras of law and good." Thus a lawful evil cleric of a lawful neutral deity radiates a strong lawful alignment.
Incidentally whilst paladins of Kelemvor are believeable, paladins of Wee Jas go beyond the pale. Given her clergy inflict and rebuke it doesn't really sit very well :)
>> A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment
Huh, learn something every day. But, I see nothing in the PH that supports Skip's statement. Is this a common thing?
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>> A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment
Huh, learn something every day. But, I see nothing in the PH that supports Skip's statement. Is this a common thing?
It's on page 32 of the PHB, under 'Aura'. Also under Detest Evil there's a chart stating the strength of the aura based on the level of the cleric. It's an oft overlooked bit of the rules, but I'm going to try to make use of it in my game.
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>> A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment
Huh, learn something every day. But, I see nothing in the PH that supports Skip's statement. Is this a common thing?
I learned something today too. That'll teach me to read things properly. The SRD says under the class description of a cleric:
Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity’s alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). Clerics who don’t worship a specific deity but choose the Chaotic, Evil, Good, or Lawful domain have a similarly powerful aura of the corresponding alignment.
That ol' read-all-the-way-through thing gets me again. It brings up a question though, the cleric's aura is for a "chaotic, evil, good, or lawful". Wee Jas is Lawful Neutral. So a cleric of Wee Jas definitely detects as Lawful even if Neutral. But what about the Good/Evil since Wee Jas is Neutral? Does Embril detect as Evil (her alignment) or not Evil (neutral like Wee Jas)?
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Wee Jasian's in Core D&D would radiate strong Lawful, whether Lawful Good (which I still think is odd, it would be like a lawful evil Saint Cuthbertian, in fact I am sure Wee Jas is only LN and LE and Saint Cuthbert is only LG and LN, it certainly applies to sponteous casting on PHB page 33 and just Saint Cutbert on page 108)), Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil.
Now according to Complete Divine (page 119) Wee Jas is defenitely Lawful Neutral, as does Deities and Demigods page 96. Now CD is probaly canon as far as Core D&D is concerned. However in the Living Greyhwak Gazeteer page 187 Wee Jas is LN(LE).
As I run Greyhawk and not Core D&D, and I'm an old fart who is opinionated enough to do what he likes I use LGG :) It adds that little bit of mystery and basically means even paladins won't be sure whether the Wee Jasian is actually LN or possibly LE :) Plus it means the Wee Jasian PC occiasionally gets to use evil descriptor spells under the paladins nose so long at they aren't too obvious by their effects and the paladin is not actively detecting evil. As the LGG Wee Jas effectively favours evil over good in makes sense that she cannot have good clerics, just like Saint Cuthbert cannot have evil clerics. Clearly in LGG paladins of Wee Jas just cannot exist but she could have blackguards. In fact my players are convinced that Ike is a Clr/Blk (Wee Jas) purely because he has full plate, a shield (with the Lady's Ruby Skull embossed as it's motif) and a bastard sword
To be honest the Wee Jasian is probably LN(LE) at times but there is little the paladin can do to ascertain that. In fact the Wee Jasian cast wave of grief from BoVD page 109 in front of the Saint Cutherbetian and the Pelorian. He did this on some Alleybashers and hillfolk at the Lucky Monkey, as he has Mind domain and thus Skill Focus(enchantment) feat as far as the others are concerned they just think it was a powerful mind-effecting spell. As neither was detecting evil and neither has ANY ranks in spellcraft they are none the wiser (in character). Read elsewhere as to why Embril is giving the Wee Jasian evil spells as a temptation.
First time I have ever had anyone play anyone sailing that close to the wind from an evil perspective and we even have a paladin in the party. What fun we have :)
Incidentally if you are in a mature adult group then having an evil character using BoVD and Libris Mortis is possible, and great RPing fun. Might get awkward when the paladin becomes a Saint from BoED though :) Things will also go downhill when the Wee Jasian gets his hands on the Soul Pillars. He has the Tomb-tainted soul feat already.