Is Zyrxog's CR wrong? Because a mind flayer is a CR 8 creature, and Zyrxog has 7 levels of sorcerer, shouldn't the CR for him be 15 instead of only 11? And after adding the other creatures as well as the black column, shouldn't that make the final encounter be EL 16 or so? Isn't that a wee bit high for a party that is expected to be about level 8?
I was just looking at the encounter last night, and realized that Zyrxog should be able to wipe out the party easily. He has a CR of 32(!) which means an 8th level wizard cannont overcome it. Even with greater spell penetration, he would have to roll a 20. Plus, he is levitating 40 feet off the ground, which neutralizes any melee attacks against him. Add the other monsters in the room and it seems to be a TPK waiting to happen.
So am I overlooking something which gives the party an advantage? Or is the encounter just way, way too hard?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Non-associated class levels aren't added one for one. Check the MM or the SRD.
"If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1."
Generally speaking a caster level isn't an associated level unless the creature already has spellcasting ability that is improved by the levels (e.g. aranea).
Sebastian
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If you take a look at the mind flayer entry in the Monsterous Manual, you'll see that their advanced version with nine levels in sorcerer and a challenge rating that makes it look like sorcerer is paying to his strengths.
OR if you prefer, you can give him psion levels in place of sorcerer levels (but only if you use Expanded Psionics). And I think everyone will agree that a psionic class is playing on a mindflayer's strengths
-Malkari
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If you take a look at the mind flayer entry in the Monsterous Manual, you'll see that their advanced version with nine levels in sorcerer and a challenge rating that makes it look like sorcerer is paying to his strengths.
OR if you prefer, you can give him psion levels in place of sorcerer levels (but only if you use Expanded Psionics). And I think everyone will agree that a psionic class is playing on a mindflayer's strengths
-Malkari
I don't have the MM in front of me. What is the CR? I believe a non-classed mindflayer has 8 HD and a CR of 8, so a mindflayer w/9 levels of sorc should be CR 12-13. Is it 17?
I also wouldn't agree that giving a mindflayer levels of psion necessarily plays to its strength. From the SRD:
"A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability."
Unless you allowed the psion levels to stack for purposes of the save DC for the mindflayer's psionic blast, there realy isn't any mechanical advantage to a mindflayer taking levels of psion. Compare w/the drider or araena, where caster levels directly improve their ability.
Giving a mindflayer 1 level of psion doesn't increase its challenge level by 1. The extra d4 hp and a handful of 1st level powers aren't a big deal. Giving an araena an extra level of sorcerer increases the effectiveness of all its natural spell casting ability, and gives it access to 2nd level spells. That's a significant boost.
But hey, I don't have the books in front of me, so maybe the sorcerer levels are added directly to the mindflayer HD and I don't know what I'm talking about.
Sebastian
In the MM, the example mindflayer with 9 levels of sorcerer is a CR 17. So sorcerer levels are considered "playing to its strengths" and added one-to-one to its CR, according to the MM itself.
EDIT: Even barring that, see my other concerns. Class levels add to a mind flayer's CR, making this particular mind flayer all but immune to spells from any caster below level 12. Melee attacks are negated, and if you take the recommended strategy of suggesting that the fighters throw their bows in the water, and you have an undefeatable enemy for the levels for which the adventure is intended.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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In the MM, the example mindflayer with 9 levels of sorcerer is a CR 17. So sorcerer levels are considered "playing to its strengths" and added one-to-one to its CR, according to the MM itself.
Alright then. I stand corrected. Looking at the other monsters w/classes in the SRD (mummy lord, aboleth mage), I see that there are other examples of caster levels being associated where the base creature doesn't have an innate spellcasting ability.
Oh well, that's what I get for reasoning from general principles and not looking at the books.
Sebastian
On a further note, does making him a 3rd level sorcerer weaken him too much? That puts his CR at 11 where it belongs, but he might not have enough defenses if I do that, because he only has two minions to protect him. He still needs to be a threat. Any suggestions are welcome.
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In the MM, the example mindflayer with 9 levels of sorcerer is a CR 17. So sorcerer levels are considered "playing to its strengths" and added one-to-one to its CR, according to the MM itself.Alright then. I stand corrected. Looking at the other monsters w/classes in the SRD (mummy lord, aboleth mage), I see that there are other examples of caster levels being associated where the base creature doesn't have an innate spellcasting ability.
Oh well, that's what I get for reasoning from general principles and not looking at the books.
Sebastian
What does CR have to do with Spell Resistance? As far as I remember, Mind Flayers have no Spell Resistance, so they would be affected by spells, or am I mistaken somehow?
Creative Director
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Zyrxog's CR is correct at 11; his sorcerer levels are not associated class levels (see page 294 of the Monser Manual). The only time sorcerer (or any primary spellcasting class, for that matter) would be an associated class level would be in the case of a monster that already has spellcasting levels, like an aranea or a naga or a nymph. Several of the sample monsters in the Monster Manual (the 9th-level sorcerer mind flayer included) unfortunatley have the wrong CR listed.
As for Zyrxog's spell resistance, yeah, it's pretty high. But that's normal for mind flayers, and has been for almost 30 years. A standard generic mind flayer's SR is still SR 25 and it's a CR 8 creature. An 8th level character has a 15% chance to get through its SR.
By the time the PCs reach Zyrxog, they should be 8th level; there's a slight chance they'll even be 9th level. But even a 9th level spellcaster won't be able to get through Zyrxog's SR. Does this make him immune to spells? Nope. Remember that conjuration spells (such as Melf's acid arrow, stinking cloud, Evard's black tentacles, solid fog, etc.) aren't stopped by spell resistance. Summoned monsters are also an excellent thing to throw at him. A fight with a mind flayer is also a great time to fall back and cast spells to help the rest of the party.
All this said, yeah, the fight with Zyrxog will be tough. For a properly equipped group of 8th level adventurers, it's by no means an impossible fight.
Regardless of Zyrxog's actual CR... I just wanted to say that the artwork for Zyrxog on pg. 56 is excellent! Please keep this artist (not sure of their name) on the payroll!
What does CR have to do with Spell Resistance? As far as I remember, Mind Flayers have no Spell Resistance, so they would be affected by spells, or am I mistaken somehow?
You are mistaken. Mind Flayers have a Spell Resistance of 25, and they get to add their number of class levels to their SR. So their SR is very high. Zyrxog has an SR 32.
(A bunch of stuff explaining that everything will be all right.)
Thank you James! I was basing the CR off of the example sorcerer in the Monster Manual.
I also forgot that the conjuration spells aren't stopped by spell resistance. One of my players is playing a warmage and thus doesn't really get buffs. I was afraid he would be helpless. I may remind him about the conjuration spells if he forgets, too.
I am just worried that if I play Zyrxog intelligently (as I should), then all my poor players will have their characters die. I will go ahead and keep him as he is, though. The tough fights are the ones the players tend to remember and appreciate.
One of my players is playing a warmage and thus doesn't really get buffs. I was afraid he would be helpless.
I played a Warmage/Fighter/Havoc Mage/Eldritch Knight up to level 20. He was never the best at damage for weapons or spells, but he was never helpless or useless.
If your player hasn't been using his Orb spells much, he will when you start to throw creatures with SR at him. If you want to throw him any hints or reminders about SR, point out those spells.
The Wizard in the group I am running is heading toward Force Mage. Not sure what this will do, but i know he has Orb spells, scorching Ray and the like.
Yeah, I had a brain fart with the whole SR thing. Sorry
While scorching ray tends to be an underappreciated spell (or is it overpowered?), Zyrxog has protection against flame and given enough time, protection to another energy type also. Likely he will protect himself from the type of energy that your Force mage tends to use as Zyrxog has been scrying on the party the whole time.
Although James is right about the way CR's are calculated, there still is something to be desired about how non-essential class levels affect the creatures CR. I play it by ear considering not only the creature and its capabilities, but the situation in which the players must face it.
I am just worried that if I play Zyrxog intelligently (as I should), then all my poor players will have their characters die. I will go ahead and keep him as he is, though. The tough fights are the ones the players tend to remember and appreciate.
You can do a few things here to avoid a TPK.
1) Have Zyrxog take the PCs captive. Perhaps he sees some sort of use for them somewhere down the line that requires them to not be his thralls. Whatever. Now, though, you get to run a really cool, "The players need to break out, find their stuff, and kick ass" scenario.
2) During his scrying, Zyrxog doesn't deem the PCs to be a threat at all, and leaves it to his minions. When the players get there, he's not there - he went to pick up his dry cleaning or something. Of course, Zyrxog will be pissed - and he'll look o gain revenge against the players. This gives you a cool, recurring villian the PCs may not even know about.
3) Play Zyrxog as a coward. The moment he takes any damage or other bad things (tm), he flees. Again, you get to have the recurring villian thing going. In this scenario, the PCs know who he is - and they can even get paranoid as they wonder if any NPCs they encounter are really agents of the Mind Flayer they pissed off.
In scenarios 2 and 3, you can let your PCs gain a few more levels before they actually face off against Zyrxog. This is especially important if you truly believe he's too challenging for the party right now. In the meantime, you'll get to have the flayer work behind the scenes to ensure that when the PCs do face off against him, they despise him. Personally, I find it really awesome when my *players* hate an NPC, and I love those final battles against those types of NPCs - they're so much more emotional and robust.
So, anyway, there's a few tips in case you think the players can't handle the encounter right now even though it's close to an appropriate CR.
I don't have this issue yet, but I can see how this would be a TPK for Novice players and a moderately difficult encounter for Master players.
First of all, Levitate is a great ability to use if you want to avoid melee combat. That being said, a common Dispel Magic will drop him to the ground. With a caster level of 9, he's not going to avoid a Dispel or two.
Fly is also a common spell, and it negates his advantage. Consider leaving a few potions of [I]Fly[I] for the PCs to find.
Once he starts taking damage every round, he's not going to be able to cast spells, effectively turning his Sorcerer levels into extra crap HD and large SR.
You can do a few things here to avoid a TPK.
1) Have Zyrxog take the PCs captive. Perhaps he sees some sort of use for them somewhere down the line that requires them to not be his thralls. Whatever. Now, though, you get to run a really cool, "The players need to break out, find their stuff, and kick ass" scenario.
This makes perfect sense to me. The party has most likely seriously depleted his source of minions by this point, and Zyrxog needs more. Why not take the people who dispatched your last ones? They are obviously far more powerful! This works especailly well if you play him with a large ego, and he doesn't think that the party would ever really be able to harm him.
I have not liked the way CRs have been calculated for a long time, especially with regards to NPCs and monsters with class levels. I just wonder why a mind flayer with 7 levels of sorcerer has a CR only 4 higher than a human with 7 levels of sorcerer. Why does a monster with a +6 Charisma modifier not treat sorcerer as an associated class? It makes no sense at all. If that was the case a human sorcerer of 7th level should only have a CR of 4. I mean a human has a +0 Charisma modifier, so why would sorcerer be an associated level for humans?
My point is that Zyrxog's CR is wrong. If you put him up against an 11th level human sorcerer Zyrxog would have more hit points, probably a better AC, a better attack bonus, massive spell resistance, better stats (including the important one of Charisma), natural attacks that can kill PCs outright, special attacks that can stun large numbers of foes, a lot more skill points, more feats, and better saving throws. I know that an 11th level sorcerer has a lot more spells, but the mind flayer would still win a battle against one in an even fight.
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No, the mind flayers cr is correct. A 11 level PC is also going to have a boatload of magical items or even a specialized item that will definatly balance things out. Plus, 4 7 level pc's are a cr 11 compared to the cr 11 mindflayer. And if your party wizrobe is any good, he'll use conjuration spells, they dont have sr
I'll be adapting Zyrxog by turning him into a psionic mind flayer with three levels of psion. Of course, why a CR 8 creature is supposed to manifest like a 9th-level psion is a bit strange (almost as bad as CR 12 weirds casting at 17th caster level!). He has more hit points, spell resistance, can manifest 5th level powers, and he still gets mind blast! All he loses is his spell-like abilities. However, I think I'll just use as a starting point the sample mind flayer telepath, who isn't quite as deadly as a 9th-level psion could be since neither of his 5th-level powers are useful in combat.
*biting fingernails* Oh drats! I'm gonna die! My group just killed off the spell slinging drow in the illithid complex, and are heading toward Zyrxog. The DM of course said,"eh, he's not powerful enough. I'm gonna up him."
What do you think my chances of surviving are?
I'm playing a gestalt: Paladin of Freedom lvl 10/Sorceror lvl 6/ Divine Oracle lvl 4 and have used 4 of my 3rd lvl spells, 2 4th lvl spells, and 1 5th lvl spell. (cast as a 10th lvl Sorc).
I have a gestalt companion with me: Ranger lvl 10/ Fighter lvl 6/ Tempest lvl 4
Personally, I think it's time I head for the hills!
:D thx...and I promise no more spoiler boards :D
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to those of you just now reading this, don't forget that the Unhallow effect prevents a lot of summoned monsters from being introduced in the room (only evil ones) - so most clerics and such won't be able to use those conjuration spells.
For those of you thinking of haveing Zyrxog taking PCs captive, remember that Loris hired him to kill them. I say have him kill them as planned (he's Lawful Evil after all) or have him send them against Loris to attempt to get back the Apostolistic Scrolls and lots more money to boot.
Then he can re-sell them and give the PCs time to break the enchantment of their own accord.
Just my 2cp
FW