Alright, one thing I've been trying to avoid is a campaign where crafting magic items COSTS the character XP.
I think it should be the other way around. A mage who crafts items should gain XP simply by virtue of practice makes perfect.
It should be the same for any artisan or trades person. Characters should gain XP by doing what they are supposed to do. Blacksmiths should get XP by forging metals into items, farmers should get XP through growing and harvesting crops, etc. Why should XP only come from slaying monsters?
Anyway, what I'd really like some help on is the fact that spellcasters can't craft magic items without throwing away XP. I'm trying to find a sensible system where they don't spend XP, but still suffer some drawback. I've considered prolonged fatigue, nausea, sickness, exhaustion... but I can't hammer out a good system.
Anyone have any ideas? Please?
I agree with you philosophically and am interested in seeing what people suggest.
Here are a couple alternatives...
The current rules:
1. Spend a feat: Craft {whatever}
2. Spend XP and material costs for each item.
Alternate rules A:
1. Spend a feat: Craft {whatever}
2. Spend material costs only
3. Require a Craft {whatever} skill check against a DC appropriate to the item. Failure indicates loss of the materials costs with no resulting item. Note: such Craft skills don't exist in the normal rules. I'm suggesting adding them.
Alternate rules B:
1. Spend one or more feats:
Craft Minor {whatever}, Craft Medium {whatever}, Craft Major {whatever}
2. Spend only material costs for each item.
- rob
Cool! That's two ways I've never thought of trying it. Even if both methods go together... like Craft (minor), Craft (moderate), and Craft (major) feats are required to unlock different items, naybe a specific skill check could go with it.
Something to think about, at least. Or, maybe the feat tree and a Spellcraft check. Spellcraft has always been an underrated skill for standard level characters, then it becomes really important for epic spellcasters. Maybe this way the Spellcraft skill gains more oomph at lower levels, too.
But, I like the idea of crafting a magic item physically drains the magic-user. So, I'm gonna keep working on that aspect, too.
Thanx for the perspective, dude!
Cool! That's two ways I've never thought of trying it. Even if both methods go together... like Craft (minor), Craft (moderate), and Craft (major) feats are required to unlock different items, naybe a specific skill check could go with it.
Something to think about, at least. Or, maybe the feat tree and a Spellcraft check. Spellcraft has always been an underrated skill for standard level characters, then it becomes really important for epic spellcasters. Maybe this way the Spellcraft skill gains more oomph at lower levels, too.
But, I like the idea of crafting a magic item physically drains the magic-user. So, I'm gonna keep working on that aspect, too.
Thanx for the perspective, dude!
An idea I've been tossing around in my head for a while is a slight alternate to the existing system.
Normally crafting an item requires spending XP along with having the requisite feats and spells/levels. My idea is to keep that intact, but also offer an option where certain rare materials/events/locations may lessen or eliminate the XP requirement.
For example, a glowing crystal filled with a bit of raw magical essence. It contains 500xp worth of 'energy', useable for crafting an item. But during the process, the crystal is destroyed.
This would give the players an option to avoid the loss of XP, but only with effort/expense of money. It also makes an interesting alternate type of treasure.
Just my two copper worth of input.
The way I envisioned the XP cost was that if the item was something being crafted for a specific customer, the wizard could perform a ritual that would force the recipient of the item to pay the XP cost and not the wizard.
I used to create "personalized" magic items in my 1st edition game--they were only useful for the specific person they were created for and required a limited wish to convert them to "regular" magic items.
Here's an example of a spell that I use for such a purpose in my campaign:
Name: Crafting Life Essence School: Enchantment Descriptor: None Secondary Descriptor: None Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: VS CT: 10 minutes Range: Touch Effect: n/a Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: Wil negates if target is unwilling Spell Resistance: None Material Component: Item being created Focus: None
Description: Cast upon completion of the crafting of any magic item that costs XP, this spell transfers the XP cost to the person touched and not the item creator. The item then functions normally, but only for the person whose life essence is tied to the item. Removing this restriction requires a limited wish spell and a successful Spellcraft check (DC= 10+item creator's level + creator's INT bonus
I really didn't see NPC spellcasters paying their own XP, unless they were really hard up for money. Please note that the price they charge is still the same, and they still charge the 5gp per XP surcharge, even if they cast this spell....business is business.
Alright, one thing I've been trying to avoid is a campaign where crafting magic items COSTS the character XP.
I think it should be the other way around. A mage who crafts items should gain XP simply by virtue of practice makes perfect.
It should be the same for any artisan or trades person. Characters should gain XP by doing what they are supposed to do. Blacksmiths should get XP by forging metals into items, farmers should get XP through growing and harvesting crops, etc. Why should XP only come from slaying monsters?
The alternitives put forward are all good ideas. That said there is a possible justification for magic items costing XP. In imbuing an item with magic the mage is draining some of their own essence. Binding a Demon to a sword for all eternity is not the same thing as bringing in a corn crop. You lose a little of yourself in the process when it comes to magic.
The alternitives put forward are all good ideas. That said there is a possible justification for magic items costing XP. In imbuing an item with magic the mage is draining some of their own essence. Binding a Demon to a sword for all eternity is not the same thing as bringing in a corn crop. You lose a little of yourself in the process when it comes to magic.
Nah, I see what you're sayin', and that's exactly what I'm lookin' for: "In imbuing an item with magic the mage is draining some of their own essence." I just don't think essence equals experience.
On another note, I think I've come up with a system I like. Using the standard Item Creation feats and requiring a Spellcraft check to determine how much of a drain the magic-user feels. I'll post more once I hammer out the details.
Alright, here's what I've come up with:
When any PC or NPC crafts a magic item it takes a toll on the magic-user, but it does not drain XP. Instead, the magic-user feels physically and mentally drained from the act of creating magic items. The level of drain is determined by a Spellcraft check vs. the item's creation DC.
Feat / DC
Scribe Scroll / 11
Brew Potion / 13
Craft Wondrous / 13
Craft Arms & Armour / 15
Craft Wand / 15
Craft Rod / 19
Craft Staff / 22
Forge Ring / 22
Check Beats DC / Effect
0-4 / Nauseated, Exhausted, Fatigued, Shaken
5-9 / Exhausted, Fatigued, Shaken
10-14 / Fatigued, Shaken
15-19 / Shaken
20+ / No Detrimental Condition
Note: Exhaustion lasts until one hour of rest, then fatigue sets in until eight more hours of rest. The nausea and shaken effects last one hour regardless. And, the effects occur in the order presented, not simultaneously.
It's a basic and straightforward system. The DCs are based on the prerequisite caster levels for taking each item creation feat, and the Spellcraft results are meant to reflect differing levels of aptitude amongst magic-users.
Of course, most of those conditions happen during downtime for PCs or NPCs while they're not adventuring, but it could make for interesting encounters if the PCs find the evil necromancer shortly after he crafted some major item... or even if the PC magic-user gets ambushed after doing the same!
Opinions, comments, and ideas are always welcome... I just came up with this, so there could be some flaws I haven't thought of, and there should still be room for improvement.
Thanx for all the feedback!
All of the ideas here are good options. My players are frustrated right now because they have a +3 keen longsword that was used on them that they can't use until they get a limited wish.
"You bastard" was a quote I heard, I seem to recall. He he he he he he
the only problem with your "no xp" plan is this i had a wiz pretty high lv. and the amount of crap he made, made him so out of balance for the party. one players a 12 lv. ftr and one is a wiz with 20 frikkin wands more potions than you can count and coated in magic. the XP cost is the equator for the wizard. If i was in your game id make a wizard too!
I like the skill check idea, especially if Alchemy was used for potions, but the checks need to be much higher, and based on the actual items worth (either in gp, or a DC the DM just comes up with) or caster level.
IMC, using craft to make nonmagical items nets the creator 1/2 the items worth in gp as XP. I use that primarily to explain how smiths get high enough level to make the things they DO make without taking forever.
I will also probably use the XP component as an item idea with my campaign- I really like the power component aspect and try to encorporate it as much as possible.
Anyone ever play The Elder Scrolls? (If not, I highly recomend them). Soulgems, anyone? In those games, you had to have a spell (soultrap), cast it on a target creature, and place it in a soulgem. There were different calibers of gems, and it had to be big enough to hold the spirit of the creature. That gem was then used in imbuing magic to any given item.
Using that method, one could determine how many HD of what type of creature (and with further description as needed) was required to make an item (this component could be a gem, dragon's blood, or whatever). Then you can measure what towns have what components availablle, sort of like the gp limit. This stops someone from making a Ring of Three Wishes in a thorp without some explanation of how they got the materials to do so (they may have the money, but that represents magical component costs, not that crafting an item "eats" gold, and I doubt a throp would have enough stuff to make something like that ring!)
Also, if the price of the most expensive soulgems is significantly lower than the location's gp limit (which makes sense, as they are much harder to obtain), this requires more visits to wealthy cities (and thus more chances for travel and sub-adventures), or even quests to find the creature of the right type and sufficient HD to make the item. Many many options there.
Possibly, the best combination is to keep the standard rules, but present a variety of these suggestions as alternative choices. You can also give your enemy NPCs much bigger items than normal without risking the unbalancing of the party using farewell2kings' "soulbound" item concept, and it answers questions of what happens to a character's wealth should he die. The party can get his stuff, but not without expending money (I would make this a spell or ritual that depended on the item's caster level, so if the party finds a +1 longsword on their enemy early on, they don't have to wait for a limited wish to use it, but still have to pay).
I'll deffinately be using some of these concepts!
Yeah, I played Morrowind. That game was wicked! And, that just added to my thoughts that creating magic items shouldn't cost the character thier XP... in Morrowind you'd gain XP. My character was all about the Enchanting skill, he made himself some seriously kick-arse weapons!
I gotta say, I think I'm gonna stick with this kinda formula in my campaign. And, I wanna use power components to alleviate some of the material costs, instead of XP costs. The soul gem idea works really well with power components, too. Ya think someone would have done a Silicon Sorcery article on that matter. Oh, well....
the only problem with your "no xp" plan is this i had a wiz pretty high lv. and the amount of crap he made, made him so out of balance for the party. one players a 12 lv. ftr and one is a wiz with 20 frikkin wands more potions than you can count and coated in magic. the XP cost is the equator for the wizard. If i was in your game id make a wizard too!
Yeah - thats a big one for me too. My CLeric took scribe scroll at 1st level. You let these guys do as they please and your going to have to come up with something so they can't make 20 wands on their down time. Thinking that up can be annoying - they be really unhappy if you suddenly take away their feats - they had to pick them after all. At least they think about the price they are paying with XP.
If I just say - you feel ill afterword I'm going to get something like "so I eat some chicken soup."
I appreciate that no one wants to lose experience, for any reason. And I get the rationale that making items is an experience, and should therefore earn XP for the creator. That said, the xp requirement for item creation is an important part of game balance, skirting that requirement should (IMHO) be difficult or expensive in some other way. There are feats that reduce but don't eliminate the xp requirement, and power components. In my understanding (which I readily conceed is not perfect) power components are particularly rare, and simply having the money doesn't mean the local magic shop has them in stock. A low DC skill check for a skill most item creators would max out (especially if since they can take 10), plus a little a fatigue on a day when the can't do anything anyway appears to me as a too little a trade off.
If you want something simple, double or triple the creation time, plus and additional 10 to 20 gp per xp in supplemental component cost might be something I considered balanced, and even allow the character to earn the standard creation xp cost as xp. But in the campaigns I have been part of downtime was always at a premium.
Just a thought.
Yeah, I played Morrowind. That game was wicked! And, that just added to my thoughts that creating magic items shouldn't cost the character thier XP... in Morrowind you'd gain XP. My character was all about the Enchanting skill, he made himself some seriously kick-arse weapons!
I gotta say, I think I'm gonna stick with this kinda formula in my campaign. And, I wanna use power components to alleviate some of the material costs, instead of XP costs. The soul gem idea works really well with power components, too. Ya think someone would have done a Silicon Sorcery article on that matter. Oh, well....
Unfortunately Flava there are two main problems using your method.
The first is that most adventurers make magic items when they're at home or resting after an adventure. I don't know of any spellcasters who create magic items in the middle of a dungeon or while they're in some other dangerous area. While being nauseated is debilitating, the effect is temporary and probably won't have any impact on the character at all. Who cares if the wizard feels a bit sick while he safely esconced in some tower or tavern. He'll get over it and then the party has another magic item they can add to their equipment list. Now you could make the wizard get attacked while he's making a magic item or shortly thereafter, but if this happens continuously it just won't make any sense and the PC will get annoyed. You need to come up with a more debilitating condition (like ability drain or ability damage) so spellcasters are actually hampered.
The second problem you have is that your DC's are way too low. Most spellcasters with decent Intelligence scores and maximum ranks in the necessary skills will breeze through your DC's without a problem. Most spellcasters will make every DC roll by the time their 9th or 10th level with no side-effects or problems whatsoever. Frankly if I was a wizard in your campaign I'd be jumping for joy, as your revised procedure for making magic items is way to good to maintain game balance, unless your players are all brainless dolts.
the only problem with your "no xp" plan is this i had a wiz pretty high lv. and the amount of crap he made, made him so out of balance for the party. one players a 12 lv. ftr and one is a wiz with 20 frikkin wands more potions than you can count and coated in magic. the XP cost is the equator for the wizard. If i was in your game id make a wizard too!
Yeah - thats a big one for me too. My CLeric took scribe scroll at 1st level. You let these guys do as they please and your going to have to come up with something so they can't make 20 wands on their down time.
If the characters are out of control, there are always options.
First, sounds like they're getting too much gold. At best, they are cutting their magic costs in half, and they had to spend feats to do so, plus (potentially) the skills to make certain items.
Second, items can be destroyed, stolen, rusted, dispelled, etc. Sick a couple of Destrachen on them. That's what they're for! : )
Or, perhaps, let them enjoy it! Is it making the game less fun for the other players?
Okay i spose i didnt write what i ment to say. I found that the equator between loosing a couple of levels to "coat" yourself in magic items IS a fair trade. A 12th Lv. ftr and a 10th Lv. wiz. with say 2-3 wands seems pretty balanced to me. And in my game it was. I've never herd anyone complain about this before, but then again i'm not much of a power gamer. I think the Xp cost stops a wizard from making everyone in the group every possible magic item, becuse if im just making skill checks whats to stop me from "holeing" up for 6mths and making countless items. Not only this it gives the wiz. somthing to whine about i.e "You want me to make you boots of springing and striding, you know thats going to cost me Xp". And as for maliciously sundering, stealing, and soaking the players out of there goods, well thats just not my style. Whats the point of minusing the Xp just to make a "boatload of magic" just for the Dm to steal it, why not charge the Xp cost and the wiz will be carful of what he makes and how much.
Well, of course magic-users don't make frikkin' items in the middle of an adventure. I addressed that issue before anyone else bothered to bring it up.
And, other people might wanna run campaigns where XP cost is a big deal. I'm not tryin' to preach some holy jyhad against the official all-balancing rules of Wizard's D20 system. Not at all. I'm using this for my own campaign.
And, the bottom line is it'll work great in my campaign. The spellcaster won't be willing to take a coupla years off adventuring to sit around and make items that make him feel like crap all the time. It's called "in character."
And, the players won't be hounding on the party magic-user any more than they'd be houndin' on any other NPC magic-user to make 'em items. My PC magic-user would charge 'em full price.
And, really? Would ya rather have a group of adventurers loaded up on "game balance" with a pile of random magic items they pick up off the bodies of some mind flayers in a random dungeon encounter? Or, would you rather have players incredibly psyched to have items that their characters can actually use!?!
Well... that was my rant. Not meant to offend anyone, only meant to deffend my case. I like the system. And everyone else can have their own opinion. Why d'ya feel the need to dis on someone elses ideas as if they're forcin' it on ya like a dictator of some fascist regime? Serious.
Side note: The DCs could be a little higher. HA!
1) The spellcaster won't be willing to take a coupla years off adventuring to sit around and make items that make him feel like crap all the time. It's called "in character."
2) the players won't be hounding on the party magic-user any more than they'd be houndin' on any other NPC magic-user to make 'em items. My PC magic-user would charge 'em full price.
3) Would ya rather have a group of adventurers loaded up on "game balance" with a pile of random magic items they pick up off the bodies of some mind flayers in a random dungeon encounter? Or, would you rather have players incredibly psyched to have items that their characters can actually use!?!
4) Why d'ya feel the need to dis on someone elses ideas as if they're forcin' it on ya like a dictator of some fascist regime? Serious.
1) sure if thats the kinda guy that plays that kinda wizard, never herd it before, every wiz. that my players played, even the wiz. that i've played likes takin a couple of mths. off, its what wizards do, slow down time so your not gaining lvs. so fast it helps create err, a perception of time i spose
2)we'll what ever i spose?
3)random items are good in my opinion, its cool to get an item you thaught you'd never use untill u use it.
4) i belive the title of this board is General Discussion and maybe it would help you to look up the word discussion in the dictionary before you use words like fascist?
Je comprends.
Your editing skills make it look like I tried to attack you.
Dude, calm down. Expression is good, and I only said I'm not forcin' my theories of game mechanics onto other people as if I were a fascist dictator of what rules must be used.
Further, "discussion" and "fascism" can logically coexist according to linguistics.
In other news....
Whatever happened to Smash Mouth... "WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS!"
More power to you for sticking to your guns Flava. Someone else might call it blind stubborness, but if you want to ignore constructive criticism then go right ahead. None of my friends listen to my words of wisdom either.
Yeah - thats a big one for me too. My CLeric took scribe scroll at 1st level. You let these guys do as they please and your going to have to come up with something so they can't make 20 wands on their down time.If the characters are out of control, there are always options.
First, sounds like they're getting too much gold. At best, they are cutting their magic costs in half, and they had to spend feats to do so, plus (potentially) the skills to make certain items.
Second, items can be destroyed, stolen, rusted, dispelled, etc. Sick a couple of Destrachen on them. That's what they're for! : )
Or, perhaps, let them enjoy it! Is it making the game less fun for the other players?
He doesn't even know how much gold he is getting...one of the first two feats he took. That said the cost for a 1st level cleric scroll is 12 GP and 1 XP. Not so pricey really. He can almost certianly get enough money to make at least 20 before reaching 2nd level...He's even got the other players in on the plot - kind of a system where healing scrolls made by the cleric are a party expence. The only saving grace is it takes him a day or something to make them. They'll probably not want to hole up for 3 months making 90 scrolls of cure light wounds and lesser rejuvination before embarking on another adventure so I'll probably not have to deal with more then 20 or so scrolls at first level.
I know that there has already been a "discussion" on this, but having been the one to bring up Morrowind-style crafting in the first place, I'd like to reiterate some of my points.
Who said anything about crafting in a dungeon? Research is done to figure out what type and power level (HD) of soul is needed, and the wizard goes out to find and capture it, then comes back and does the crafting. I'm currently thinking that the D&D version of the Soultrap spell (not to be confused with Trap the Soul, perhaps a new name is needed but that can come later) will capture 1/2 of a creature's HD, and each HD "stores" a preset amount of XP (the process isn't efficient and you loose a lot of power in each stage of transfer). Also, this spell needs to be Universal; if it were Necromancy or something, then anyone who took those as prohibited schools could never make items.
Also, I believe I addressed going to the store to buy these soulgems. They are much rarer than normal items, even other magical ones, and thus are available in much fewer quantities, especially the high-level ones. The weaker ones could be bought easily enough- so that low-level casters don't have to do so much or put themselves at too much risk. The prices of these soulgems is assumed in the price to create the item.
It should be noted that even if the soulgem isn't available for purchase at the local store, one could still buy them via doing the research and then paying mercenaries (or the PCs if the crafter is an NPC) to go capture creature X's soul.
If one needed the soul of a powerful demon to make a unholy or vorpal weapon, it might be as simple as just using Planar Binding to call the creature, but often it might entail a trip to a lower plane to find the beast oneself (especially for high-level items like vorpal weapons).
I've presented this idea to my group of 4 players. Three of them wanted to find a way to put soulgems in the game when they first played Morrowind, but the idea was set aside. Now that I've presented it again, one of those original three is set against it (the other two like it, and the 4th hasn't approved or disapproved yet). His view is that he would rather just take the XP penalty and then go out and fight a few weak creatures single-handedly to regain the lost amount (since it wouldn't be divided up between party members if he is solo-ing).
I don't like this; it seems very meta-game to me. But, his character obviously has an idea of HD by the very rules presented here, as well as others such as Trap the Soul (even if they don't have that name for it and don't use numbers, the character understand power levels of life essences). Further, he understand XP on a basic level because he has spent it in crafting items (before implementing this rule), and realizes that "life essence (XP)" can be drained without taking away a "power level (HD)". He also figures that his characters are aware of the fact that their own HD increase after fighting monsters (A long standing joke in my play group: A commoner kills a rat and says "Wow, I feel so much stronger!"). So, anytime the party encounters XP loss for anything, the "wounded" character merely wanders off and fixes it.
This can be stopped by making it dangerous to go out on one's own like that (I currently use level-scaled random encounter charts, but that could change here soon). If the whole party goes, it defeats his purpose, because the crafter remains proportionately (sp?) weaker. But I'd rather use some in-game reason as to why his character doesn't know that fighting makes him stronger (ESPECIALLY wizards!).
As I previously stated, the costs to make magic items has always assumed magical processes like this. I'm just seeking good ways to make it more fun, detailed, and interactive.
Alternate rules A:
1. Spend a feat: Craft {whatever}
2. Require a Craft {whatever} skill check against a DC appropriate to the item. Failure indicates loss of the materials costs. Note: such Craft skills don't exist in the normal rules. I'm suggesting adding them.
I like this option, but with a little twist:
I'd suggest the addition of a single skill: "Infuse Item (all types - scrolls, wands, weapons, vestments)" with an appropriate DC check (rather easy for 1st lvl scrolls, extremely hard for an artifact). Material costs and time are still the same, but no XP loss or gain. If you succeed on the DC, that's great, if you fail then you still lose the material costs and time. Feats would still be required in order to "learn the basics" of crafting specific kinds of things. That seems more than fair, really. Not sure how it would play out in game, though.
You could have separate skills for Infusing / Imbuing with arcane energy, spiritual power, or psionics... and each of these would only be available based on class. Then it makes sense that a wizard could prepare an item to specifications (feat: craft item) and have a cleric come by and put in the necessary spells (skill: infuse holy power) if the cleric didn't yet have the item creation feat. This also adds some nice roleplaying options to boot (cooperating with other PCs, and NPCs).
The idea of spending XP never quite made sense to me, because XP is typically only "lost" when one loses a level or life "energy". In the DnD system, magic hasn't usually been tied to an expenditure of personal energy or "power points" like psionics (where spending XP to make a psionic item might make more sense... since personal power is being used there, but I still think the addition of the skill above would be better).
... But, I like the idea of crafting a magic item physically drains the magic-user. So, I'm gonna keep working on that aspect, too.
Perhaps an XP loss for the wizard (or other character) if the item being created is a very powerful item (or, at epic levels, an artifact) which will intentionally have some level of intelligence... the XP loss could reflect an infusion of a fragment of the caster's personality, and personal power. And if the DC for infusing "energy" (based on a stat-related skill: Int for wizards, Wis for clerics, etc...) is failed, the backlash of energy could do temporary INT, WIS, or CHA damage that will then need to be healed?
Sounds like this could be a fun set of variant rules that could be published in Class Acts! You'd have skills for infusing power, a table for the DC being attempted, and some XP-loss rules related to infusing very powerful items.
I am really stubborn, and I'm really set on elliminating the XP cost from Item Creation. Construcivte criticism is wicked! It helps refresh the in-game consequences of screwing with the D20 system. I don't mind messsin' it up a little, cuz it's not flawless to begin with, so I'm gonna twist it whichever way will suit my campaign and players best.
Laeknir, I kinda like the idea of using a Spellcraft check over makin' up three new and specific skills just because it keeps things simpler. I prefer comin' up with a new skill use rather than forcin' PCs and NPCs to spread their few skill points even thinner by adding new skills. But, that's just how I see it.
Searn, your Soultrap/Soulgem conversion should work out fine. That way there's a lot less screwin' around with the D20 system that is already in place. It fundamentally works just like power components, but the Soulgems are like generic power components. I'm sure there have been rules done up about using power components to help reduce the XP costs of Item Creation, you should look it up, it'd definately help you hammer out the details of you Soultrap/Soulgem system. Really, I'd like to see what you get, cuz your way seems to be a lot more compatible with maintaining balance in the D20 system than what I've been workin' on.
But, I'm stubborn, so I'm gonna keep workin' on my sickness-system. The DCs really should be set up differently. I'd like to keep things simple, but things might get a little more complicated. Dammit.
'Til then... like Greg Graffen said... "against the grain, that's where i'll stay, swimming upstream, i maintain against the grain."
Perhaps an XP loss for the wizard (or other character) if the item being created is a very powerful item (or, at epic levels, an artifact)... the XP loss could reflect an infusion of a fragment of the caster's personality, and personal power.
Well... I kinda figure that epic level items are made by epic level characters. For superman to throw a fully-loaded transport truck, it's like me throwin' a frisbee. I figure, it's the same difference for an epic level character to try and make a Staff of the Magus, like a low level character tries to make an Apparatus of Kwallish. It's hard in both cases, but neither is more difficult than the other.
Of course, you could argue to support what you've said... but, I really wanna steer clear of XP costs all together.
That said, it's still a good idea you have there, man!
Speaking of power components, I think I might start using them in place of some of the penalties on Sanctified spells in the Book of Exalted Deeds- Armeggedon is nice, but not "lose one character level" nice (unless it's upped in power substantially).
I like the Imbue skill idea- you still have to take the feat, but rather than XP, you have to spend skill points to do it. I'm thinking DC 20 + caster level of the magic item? At 20th level, with 23 ranks and, say, +7 Int modifier, that brinks one's skill to +30. An item of CL 20 would have a DC of 40, giving the crafter a 55% chance of success. Spellcraft and various Knowledge skills (particularly Arcana and Relgion) could each give a +2 synergy bonus, increasing the crafter's odds to 75%. Considering the costs involved, and the time (which I would say one still has to spend 2/3 of), 25% chance of failure is a big enough price.
On the other hand, Flava's suggestion of using Spellcraft knocks the crafter's synergy from +4 to +2 (I think I like that better), and gives it MUCH more significance (I deffinately like that better!). On a low enough roll, the crafter could have a mishap. Magic is dangerous! One of the spell's he's putting in the item goes off on him; when making an Unholy weapon, the bound soul of the demon comes back out; etc.
I think I'm going to incorporate both soultrapping and spellcraft checks (alchemy for potions). I believe I might also put in a minimum HD limit on creature's soultrapped for different items, to stop the party from going out and slaughtering a bunch of goblins for their essences. Following that train of thought, useable souls will probably only come from innately "magical" creatures, such as magical beasts, dragons, outsiders, and just about anything with a supernatural/spell-like ability. (Note that many golems are a viable source for earth-elemental spirits). Not sure if undead will be applicable or not, especially the incorporeal ones. Hmmm....
Yeah I was thinking of using the prerequisite caster level for specific items in calculating the skill DC, too. I was thinking along the lines of say 10 (or maybe 15 or 20) + caster level prerequisite for the item creation feat + caster level prerequisite for the specific item.
So say a scroll might be a Spellcraft DC of 10 + 1 + 1 for a scroll of magic missle.
And, an Apparatus of Kwallish might be a Spellcraft DC of 10 + 3 + 19.
And, a Staff of Power would be a DC of 10 + 12 + 15.
But, then maybe the base DC should be 15 or 20 instead of just 10.
Flava,
I am totally with you about the whole xp loss issue. I fully support your xp point gain for crafting items theory, in fact I use an almost identical system in my campaign. I really like your "sickness" system and will no doubt adopt some of its finer features as my own! On a personal note, I respect your views and "sticking to your guns" about your own opinions on this topic vs. "constructive criticism"
As I mentioned in my house rules post, I convert almost everything (especially feats) to a percentage roll. First a PC must choose the appropriate feat (or NWP, in my world). The chance of success starts at 10% and improves just one point with each attempt. A failed attempt to craft any item (from magical to mundane)results in experience points earned but total loss of raw materials (including gold pieces). The character earns experience whether they succeed or not (though obviously more for success) because a person learns SOMETHING - even if it's only what NOT to do! How much a character succeeds by when rolling the skill check determines the quality of the work done (this system also works for musical performances and artwork). Anything IMC that requires a "check" roll results in xps earned (as determined by the DM).
Anyway, this percentage system prevents the problems others have mentioned regarding whipping off 20 wands or creating countless potions at low levels or causing any game imbalance. The cost of materials alone is prohibitive especially considering the vast majority of early attempts will result in failures. Also, more difficult or high level magic items would have appropriate percentage penalties (5 to 10% difficulty challenge for medium level items and 20% and up for high level or epic level items/artifacts). With my system even a first level crafter could get lucky (with minor items) and a high level crafter can still fail (although this is logically less likely). After exceeding 75% chance of success in any skill/feat, characters have the option of becoming instructors and passing along their talents or aid others in making their skill checks. This is useful for one character to help or instruct a party member since I require a plausible excuse for any feat chosen by advancing characters (or newly created ones for that matter).
I also require all characters to "study" for a number of weeks equal to each higher level gained. For example, a character moving up from 9th level to 10th, would need to spend 10 weeks in "training". This training period is rarely role-played out but it often provides "down-time" for PCs whose characters have not gone up a level. This provides the perfect opportunity for characters to practice their crafts/trades. I have a character that retreats to his blacksmith shop during down times and hones his skills (while hopefully earning both experience and some extra coinage as well).
If there is a flaw in my scheme it is this ... all the money, time, and effort required to raise your skill/feat percentage to any kind of reasonable chance of success tends to discourage PCs from choosing "Craft" skills/feats in the first place - forcing them to rely on the capricious nature of random magic items. But PCs who have an interest or motivation to learn any craft or trade have almost limitless possibilities and creative opportunities.
Anyway, that's just my thoughts on the matter.
Time to throw in some more "constructive criticism" (hell, everyones agreeing with each other on this thread. We can't have that happening).
There is a certain moral ambiguity about using creatures souls to power magic items in D&D. Unless your PCs are evil, most of the time they will want to be making items with the holy or demon bane properties (not unholy). Does that mean they have to go out and steal the soul of an angel or other good creature? Since its a soul's energy that powers the item there's little difference between that and a devourer draining a soul to power its abilities. What if the wizard in your party buys the soulgem off a magic merchant (if these exist in your world)? How does the purchaser know that the soul in the gem isn't that of a lammasu or paladin?
Both trap the soul and soulbind are high level spells (8th and 9th respectively) so the vast majority of spellcasters don't have access to them. Thus soulgems would be incredibly expensive. Also, would every potion and scroll use a soulgem in its creation? Destroying the soul of a creature for a few potions reeks of incredible evil.
Remember that D&D is not Morrowwind for a reason. They are entirely different games with different sets of rules.
I think that the Infuse Item skill is actually a very good idea, and a good alternative to spending XP. Skills cost skill points though, and most spellcasters don't have a hell of a lot of skill points to spend in the first place. It means that your clerics and sorcerers (the ones with usually the least skill points in D&D) would find their other skills stunted more than they currently are. Also, there needs to be some refinement to the skill before it's ready for use. Remember that the CL for a lot of items is not the same as how powerful the item is. The CL for a major cloak of displacement is actually lower than the CL for boots of speed even though the former item is actually more powerful (and would cost more to make) the DC to make the cloak using the Infuse Skill method is actually lower than the DC to make the boots. Now that just doesn't make sense. This is not just an isolated case, but is littered throughout the DMG.
On a final note, those sickness rules for making magic items aren't necessarily bad they just won't hamper the spellcasters in your group unless you go out of your way to make it a problem. Being sick or nauseated for an hour just isn't debilitating enough. By the following morning the wizard or cleric is as right as rain, with nothing detrimental to show for his intensive labor.
Time to throw in some more "constructive criticism" (hell, everyones agreeing with each other on this thread. We can't have that happening).
On a final note, those sickness rules for making magic items aren't necessarily bad they just won't hamper the spellcasters in your group unless you go out of your way to make it a problem. Being sick or nauseated for an hour just isn't debilitating enough. By the following morning the wizard or cleric is as right as rain, with nothing detrimental to show for his intensive labor.
Exactly. That's what I was looking for. I don't want detrimental effects hindering magic-users. A severe shortage of XP puts spellcasters behind the rest of the group. That's part of the reason why I started thinking about an alternative method.
It's a great point you make about the morality of using soulgems, but it's no different than the problem of using any power components. It just comes down to what a DM wants his Holy Longsword to be made of, really. Maybe it inflicts that extra 2d6 damage because the steel is mingled with demon blood as the blade gets forged. Then it's not really evil for a good magic-user to slay an evil demon so he can make a Holy Longsword. But, it's still a good point you bring up.
Personally, the Infuse Item skill, I have to agree with what you said. Making up more skills means that characters have to focus in a few areas while ignoring many others, even if the only want to be adequately skillful. That's why I have to stick with the Spellcraft skill. That, and Spellcraft already has special rules and synnergy bonuses... so, it's less work for me.
Wow, how did I miss this thread?
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Anyway, here is a heads-up:
The Book of Vile Darkness has several ways to provide XP for item creation. They turn your magic items evil, but they do negate your XP costs. They are:
A. Sacrifice. Yes, blood sacrifice (the killing kind) to dark gods is worth "dark craft" points that are worth GP or XP for items. The rewards are small and its totally evil, but free XP for magic items is free XP.
B. Souls. They are worth 10 XP each. While many powerful and high level methods exist for nabbing souls, lets not forget that weapons made out of "thinaun" (an exotic material from Complete Warrior) captures souls from killed enemies. With a quiver full of thinuan arrows, you can cull the local orc tribe for all the XP you need to create items.
C. Liquid Pain. A simple 4th level spell and you can turn torture into a drug/XP substitute. The Book of Exalted Deeds called "liquid joy" or some other name that sounds like dishsoap and its a good-aligned variant that only works for "good" items and your subjects have to be all happy and stuff.
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Additionally, its been ruled that other characters can pay the XP costs for an item's creation costs. Simply paying someone to provide XP is a more than adequate solution.
Well... I kinda figure that epic level items are made by epic level characters. ...I figure, it's the same difference for an epic level character to try and make a Staff of the Magus, like a low level character tries to make an Apparatus of Kwallish. It's hard in both cases, but neither is more difficult than the other. Of course, you could argue to support what you've said... but, I really wanna steer clear of XP costs all together.
Whoops... sorry, I probably wasn't really clear. I'm agreeing with you, actually (especially about the above quote). I'm really against XP costs in almost every case... but I meant that if a character wanted to make an item which had Intelligence or personality, like a talking sword, then an XP loss might be justified in that case - because the caster could be seen as "donating" a fragment of his/her personality. Or someone else could serve as the "donor" (or even as a forced "donor", assuming the caster is doing something evil), and they'd lose their XP instead of the caster...). So this could justify an XP cost.
But I'm definitely against XP cost for creating "everyday" items. Also, I really didn't mean to imply that epic lvl items could be made by non-epic characters. I meant more that epic PCs would be the ones who could make epic items... and the requisite DC would be epic as well. Anyway, cool topic!
I actually did look at the major cloack of displacement right after making the post and was shocked by the low CL. Also, I did think about the Holy weapon ability- I was thinking that one might have to convince a celestial to bind himself to the weapon (not totally unfeasable, since he would be providing the world with another tool against evil). Mageware vendors, as I like to call them, would need to know what souls were in gems with a fair degree of accuracy, since it would be important in crafting. However, even just killing a bunch of elementals for the purposes of a magic suit of armor or a weapon isn't right.
I'm also getting a lot of rebellion to the idea from that one player still, so I think I might stick with the skill check. I'll use spellcraft, as I said, to stop massive synergies and to give it more importance. The DCs might needed to be modified by the DM somewhat, also. I do like the danger aspect of it, however, so low rolls are still going to make bad things happen.
As for the spell level, I do believe I stated making a new, lower level spell to make up for that (say, 4th or 5th), and I had forgotten about the special material in the Complete Warrior. I'm probably going to keep the soulgem idea, but only in certain circumstances. As I said in a much earlier post on this thread, the best option might be keeping the core rules, but presenting a list of alternatives to the players to compensate.
Geez, I had totally forgotten about all that stuff on torture and sacrifice from BoVD. That stuff is wicked for villains!
And, I had no idea there was a metal in that could steal souls. That sounds mest up.
I like the idea of risky and dangerous failure that Saern mentioned, tho! I've always used crit fails on skill checks, but I think I'll make it a little harsher for Item Creation.
Like, a Spellcraft check that fails by 1-5 simply wastes materials, a check that fails by 6-10 might have the magical energies explode in their face, and a roll of 1 would be really bad. Something to think about, for sure.