Ok, I haven't played D&D in 20 years, and I'm starting AoW with all new players that have never played before (My girlfriend, her 12 year old son and 12 year old daughter). I've been looking through Whispering Cairn trying to find areas that could present major difficulties/tpk's to new players. The brown mold in area 11 looks to be one of them.
Being at work, I don't have my DM's Guide to reference, but the online srd says " "Living creatures within 5 feet of it take 3d6 points of nonlethal cold damage. Fire brought within 5 feet of brown mold causes it to instantly double in size. Cold damage, such as from a cone of cold, instantly destroys it. ", and also "For purposes of spells and other special effects, all slimes, molds, and fungi are treated as plants."
So how does the party go about overcoming this obstacle. 'Cone of cold' is well beyond a first level spell caster. Do they just have to book ass across the mold to area 13, taking non-lethal damage in each direction? Can they string a rope across it somehow that is more than 5 feet above it and avoid the damage?
I want to warn the party about trying to burn it somehow, because after dealing with the swarm of acid beetles, that is exactly what the party will want to do. But how to go about that. I was considering 2 options:
1) Put an adventurer's journal in the backpack in area 5. I wouldn't want the adventurer who wrote this journal to have made it to the lair of the architect, so it would have to be some sort of non area specific advice. Maybe instead of a journal it could be some sort of adventurers handbook like 'flora and fauna of the cairn hills cave systems' or something. That way I could include advice about swarms too. Or it could be more of a 'caving for dummies' type book.
2) I will most likely be playing an NPC, so maybe he/she could have some knowledge in regards to these things. The only problem is I don't want to turn the adventure into one where the players turn around and say 'what do you think, bob?' every 20 seconds.
Any advice would be great.
If somebody has ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering) this is the perfect opportunity to reward them for that skill point purchase. Barring that (since at least in my experience it's a skill that isn't selected much), you could rely on Knowledge (nature) - a skill that sees a little more gameplay.
I would personally avoid making an NPC with them anything more than "hired muscle." If the NPC begins solving riddles and such, they'll come to rely on such help.
I would personally avoid making an NPC with them anything more than "hired muscle." If the NPC begins solving riddles and such, they'll come to rely on such help.
Yes, I agree completely.
You could easily send an NPC along with them who has ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering). Make the check, if the NPC knows anything about brown mould he can help them. The PCs won't come to rely on him because the application of this skill is relatively limited, i.e., he won't be solving any puzzles for the PCs with this skill. It fits within the game rules and is quite plausible. (I am planning on sending my own version of Dram Cicaeda with my group and judging from his character background it sounds like he might have picked up some Knowledge (dungeoneering) from his time training in the garrison.)
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Ray of Frost is a 0 level spell for Sorcerors and Wizards; it deals a d3 of cold damage, so that Brown Mold should be toast.
I ran a 3rd-level party through the first part of this on Saturday and the Druid cast Chill Metal on a handful of coins then scattered the coins across the Brown Mold, which seemed valid to me. And it was fun visualizing/describing little spots of dead Mold appearing around the coins and expanding until the whole thing was dead.
They first tried to kill it by throwing a torch on it, the look on their faces was fun when I told them it doubled in size :D
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Because of a lot of dilly-dallying, we finally ran this encounter only last Thursday, making it the second-to-last encounter in the campaign and a fine capstone to the ten (10!) sessions it took us to get through the cairn.
One character made a Knowledge (dungeoneering) check to learn that brown mold was harmed by cold, and one ray of frost later, the mold was rendered inert.
Et voila.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
Sweet, thanks for all the advice. Didn't check for lower level spells. I'm going to pregenerate a standard party -- fighter, rogue, mage, cleric. I'll be sure to give the mage 'ray of frost' as a spell in his/her spell book.
Plus I'll probably put one more 'muscle' npc with the party. maybe a ranger or something. Someone that might have the knowledge(dungeoneering) skill. I'll also try to see to it that the party members have some ranks in different useful knowledges that fit their classes.
That might get me out of having to write up some sort of short 'dungeoneers survival guide' for the party, and also allow them to use the knowledge checks to help with the swarm encounter. Otherwise they're going to get torn apart when the swarm shows up :P
Still a little rough.
So we have 1 clear way to defeat (depending on the DM's leniency with other knowledge skills, or a higher level party with another cold spell), requiring 3 things:
a) somebody prepared Ray of Frost
b) somebody took ranks in Knowledge Dungeoneering
c) the dungeoneer wins their skill check roll
We're kinda narrow on the options. What about an atypical party that didn't have that perfect combo?
A metagamer who knows the DMG might recognize it as brown mold. But would a typical roleplayer experiment by shooting different energy spells at it? A low level party doesn't have many spells at their disposal anyway.
I don't like the idea of using an NPC to solve the party's problems, there's gotta be another way.
Even if an NPC provides Dungeoneering, they still need Ray of Frost or something cold. A bucket of ice lying around in another room? Too improbable. How about snowy weather outside...
The thing I don't like about the Brown Mold situation, and its obviously of no fault of dungeon, is that this is some sort of plant that is strengthened by flame and generates cold, yet is most susceptible to cold.
?????
If my players run into this problem (how to deal with the mold), I am going to let both heat and cold damage it. They've got enough worries already.
And by the way, 3d6 cold in subdual damage must be the equivelant to arctic conditions, unless the cold effect is generated by something other than actaul "cold".
The thing I don't like about the Brown Mold situation, and its obviously of no fault of dungeon, is that this is some sort of plant that is strengthened by flame and generates cold, yet is most susceptible to cold.
?????
If my players run into this problem (how to deal with the mold), I am going to let both heat and cold damage it. They've got enough worries already.
And by the way, 3d6 cold in subdual damage must be the equivelant to arctic conditions, unless the cold effect is generated by something other than actaul "cold".
I have always assumed that the mold works like this: It absorbs the heat from the air around it to nourish itself (thus causing the extreme cold), just like a plant pulling nutrients from the soil it sits in. Hence fire feeds it (the heat) and why it produces cold (from sapping the heat from the environment. Seems like a logical (or as logical as fantasy can get) enough reason to me!
The reason it suffers from cold damage but grows from heat is simple. It feeds off nearby heat sources. Figuring out that heat is what the mould wants shouldn't be too difficult for a group of clever PCs. The next logical step is that it would be vulnerable to cold.
I say let them figure it out. The damage is only nonlethal and destroying the mould is not crucial to success in the adventure. If they screw up and burning hands it, it doubles in size and they can't explore further until they figure out to use ray of frost (which should be a no-brainer after the burning hands mistake). If one character gets knocked out from the cold, they drag him to safety and learn their lesson. I see this as a chance for smart PCs to get some extra treasure, a reward for intelligent play/varied skill selection. As has been mentioned, one 0-level arcane spell finishes this encounter once and for all.
One more thing. So it is not "radiating cold" that causes the chill, rather an absence of heat....
BUT for all those who really don't like the brown mold, why not switch it out for another kind of mold?
I have always assumed that the mold works like this: It absorbs the heat from the air around it to nourish itself (thus causing the extreme cold), just like a plant pulling nutrients from the soil it sits in. Hence fire feeds it (the heat) and why it produces cold (from sapping the heat from the environment. Seems like a logical (or as logical as fantasy can get) enough reason to me!
OK, I get it now...thanks for the clarification, Lex. Since its only subdual, maybe I wont adjust the plant. Still, 3d6 is alot of damage when you compare it to exposure to elements. For a frame of reference, isn't it like 1d6 subdual cold damage per hour in severe cold?
Yeah, brown mold is a real pain in the ass, but I've never seen a PC actually die from it as long as there were adventuring companions nearby. It makes for a nice "thinking" challenge.
Ten-foot pole + shovel + rope = 3d6 on a stick!
Yes, as any hardy adventurer has all three of these things, you as the DM will then have to deal with the "3d6 on a stick Area of Effect melee weapon" condundrum.
It gets even sillier if the PCs start tossing the stuff at monsters.
My advice is to replace it with a nice fungus/mold that has a short-term Confusion effect and can be lit on fire. Brown Mold is a puzzle trap(all the fun of a Puzzle monster and a trap) and will generally nail inexperienced players.
Best of luck!
Ten-foot pole + shovel + rope = 3d6 on a stick!
Yes, as any hardy adventurer has all three of these things, you as the DM will then have to deal with the "3d6 on a stick Area of Effect melee weapon" condundrum.
It gets even sillier if the PCs start tossing the stuff at monsters.
Now that is BEAUTIFUL!!!! I would love to see a PC do that.... it would just make my day!
Ten-foot pole + shovel + rope = 3d6 on a stick!
Yes, as any hardy adventurer has all three of these things, you as the DM will then have to deal with the "3d6 on a stick Area of Effect melee weapon" condundrum.
How exactly would an area effect of brown mold fit on a shovel? I would treat it as an improvised ranged weapon attack if PCs were to fling bits of it from the shovel, but I would also have the mould die within an hour of it being removed from its home. Can't see it sticking to the shovel for it to be a melee weapon.
How exactly would an area effect of brown mold fit on a shovel? I would treat it as an improvised ranged weapon attack if PCs were to fling bits of it from the shovel, but I would also have the mould die within an hour of it being removed from its home. Can't see it sticking to the shovel for it to be a melee weapon.
I'd say that the damage would have to be lower. The brown mold covers a decent amount of area. Also, it has the benefit of having been in the same place a decent amount of time. To do that much damage with some of it sticking to a shovel and moving around an environment might be a stretch. Plus the accuracy of a 10' pole, a rope, and a shovel sounds like it leaves a little to be desired.
But yes, I'd love to see a group of players think it up too.
I think that they could put about a 5' square mass on the shovel and according to the DMG that is enough to justify the 3d6 damage. Although, I think that I would reduce the damage by 1d6 for every hour that it was taken away from it's source...
HOWEVER, clever PCs could farm the mold by feeding the 5' detachment fire (this could also revive a "dying" mold)... This could open the door to a trap... the PC's lure a enemy into an area that they have transported a bit of mold to, then drop their torch on it as the "ugly" come chasing after.... The possibilities are numerous.
Thanks Lex for the laughs.
My comments (coming from an enginerd's point of view):
3d6 is for a 5 foot diameter mass of mold but a shovel of it would be only 1 foot diameter. So I would have to agree (again) with EbbTide that the damage would be much less. Not to mention it would take time to drop the ambient temperature to the point that it would even cause damage at that volume.
Also, the weight of a shovel with a scoop full of mold would get rather heavy at the end of a 10 foot pole. Unless you have someone with the constitution of a storm giant in your party, I doubt they could weld that for more than a 15 minutes (course I guess they could pull it around with them or push it).
Funny never the less and I would love to have my PCs be that ingenuitive. I would even give them the benefit of the doubt and let them play with it for a bit if they come up with that on their own.
Ten-foot pole + shovel + rope = 3d6 on a stick!
Monte Cook used this trick in his module "A Paladin in Hell". Since the devils were resistant to cold they were lobbing it about everywhere.
There are of course several problems with your brown mold on a stick attack, but lets not quibble over what is an otherwise entertaining idea.
The thing I don't like about the Brown Mold situation, and its obviously of no fault of dungeon, is that this is some sort of plant that is strengthened by flame and generates cold, yet is most susceptible to cold.
?????
If my players run into this problem (how to deal with the mold), I am going to let both heat and cold damage it. They've got enough worries already.
And by the way, 3d6 cold in subdual damage must be the equivelant to arctic conditions, unless the cold effect is generated by something other than actaul "cold".
Brown mold is meant to be nasty. I once created an adventure with an old white dragon that had covered its entire lair in brown mold. O'h the pain!
If you wanted to, you could scale down the damage a bit or give the PCs a saving throw, but the mold doesn't move so PCs can avoid the damage just by leaving the area. This also means that the PCs can come back to the mold time and time again until they have come up with a suitable way to get around it or destroy it.
If there was only some way you could coax the beetle swarm into the brown mold. You might get rid of at least one problem!
Zoiks, Shaggy! "Cold damage, such as from a cone of cold, instantly destroys it." There is a HUGE difference between CoC and Ray of Frost. Like about nine levels of caster level. IMC, a puny Ray of Frost (d3) or chilly coins will not be able to destroy a 5' patch of brown mold.
Zoiks, Shaggy! "Cold damage, such as from a cone of cold, instantly destroys it." There is a HUGE difference between CoC and Ray of Frost. Like about nine levels of caster level. IMC, a puny Ray of Frost (d3) or chilly coins will not be able to destroy a 5' patch of brown mold.
I would agree that they are pointing out something different, but I don't really think that it was the level of caster that stands out as different to me.
For me, the difference is that Cone of cold will affect an area (which is what the brown mold is spread out across) where as a ray of frost only affects a single target.
However, as Brown Mold is supposed to be a CR2 encounter I think it would excessive to expect the PCs to have an area affecting cold affect handy. As is, it is likely to take down a PC or two and then they will figure it out. They may need to rest to rememorize spells.
I guess if you wanted to stretch the adventure out a bit more you could make available back in town a scroll of Icy Spray (a cold version of burning hands... not a real spell, just made it up but I am sure there is a legit spell out there somewhere that just subs cold for fire damage on burning hands). This would mean this is kind of like the encounter with the howling door in that the PCs have to leave the dungeon before continuing on to explore this area. Not a bad thing necessarily, but that is the effect that it will have. If you want more RP and less dungeon... split up the dungeon. If you want more action, don't slow it down with side trips.
Sean Mahoney
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You know, the room beyond the brown mold isn't essential to completing the adventure anyway- if the PCs give up, they're just out one encounter and about six hundred bucks (a lot of money at 1st-2nd level, but survivable- 4 PCs would only get 150 gold). If the PCs are having a tough time with it, they should just avoid it.
I don't know about you guys, but my group shows a reasonable amount of pragmatism when it comes to things like that. If it looks like too much danger to be worth the effort, they'll just leave (perhaps to come back later with the right equipment and knowledge for the job).
Besides, after reading the min/maxing thread earlier today, I thought everyone played half-white dragon/half-fire giants (immune to cold and fire!) with 46 Strength. What are they worried about? :)
Another good point, Sean. Yes, significant cold to the entire brown mold, not just a ray point.
How exactly would an area effect of brown mold fit on a shovel? I would treat it as an improvised ranged weapon attack if PCs were to fling bits of it from the shovel, but I would also have the mould die within an hour of it being removed from its home. Can't see it sticking to the shovel for it to be a melee weapon.Ten-foot pole + shovel + rope = 3d6 on a stick!
Yes, as any hardy adventurer has all three of these things, you as the DM will then have to deal with the "3d6 on a stick Area of Effect melee weapon" condundrum.
Well, you don't have to hit anyone with it. You just have to get it within 5' of someone, which is an AC 5 ranged attack(if thrown) or automatic if done as a melee action. Ideally, you want to get it within 5' of several someones. Tossing it is less than ideal as its an improvised weapon(-4 to hit).
With half a sack, a pole, and some rope(netted around the half sack and then tied to the pole) you can make an open-topped bag that can be tied to the end of a 10' pole and moved around at will and with line of effect. I'm guessing that a 5' patch of brown mold weights as much as a large bag of grass cuttings, so a counterweight on your pole might be needed if you are a low Strength wizard or something. In a caves/corridors, you can just carry it in front of you and every monster that wants to attack you has to cross the area of the Mold and take damage(and you can drop the bag and force monsters to fight with the Brown Mold's effect).
It even does subdual damage, so you can interrogate enemies after the battle.
I'm also not sure, but it might also be useful for putting out fires as well.
Overall, its totally worth it for a low-level character to do this as its basically an unlimited use Energy Substitution{cold) Subdual Burning Hands spell cast by a 4th level caster(though it can be used tactically like an unlimited duration Wall spell and it ignores SR!). As a longtime Wizard/Sorcerer player, I could find uses for it well into 8th-9th level. Eventually, you can store it in your Bag of Holding for when you don't need it, though I would be tempted to ring my campsites with it at night to keep those wandering orcs on their toes.
Happy adventuring!
How exactly would an area effect of brown mold fit on a shovel? I would treat it as an improvised ranged weapon attack if PCs were to fling bits of it from the shovel, but I would also have the mould die within an hour of it being removed from its home. Can't see it sticking to the shovel for it to be a melee weapon.Ten-foot pole + shovel + rope = 3d6 on a stick!
Yes, as any hardy adventurer has all three of these things, you as the DM will then have to deal with the "3d6 on a stick Area of Effect melee weapon" condundrum.
Well, you don't have to hit anyone with it. You just have to get it within 5' of someone, which is an AC 5 ranged attack(if thrown) or automatic if done as a melee action. Ideally, you want to get it within 5' of several someones. Tossing it is less than ideal as its an improvised weapon(-4 to hit).
With half a sack, a pole, and some rope(netted around the half sack and then tied to the pole) you can make an open-topped bag that can be tied to the end of a 10' pole and moved around at will and with line of effect. I'm guessing that a 5' patch of brown mold weights as much as a large bag of grass cuttings, so a counterweight on your pole might be needed if you are a low Strength wizard or something. In a caves/corridors, you can just carry it in front of you and every monster that wants to attack you has to cross the area of the Mold and take damage(and you can drop the bag and force monsters to fight with the Brown Mold's effect).
It even does subdual damage, so you can interrogate enemies after the battle.
I'm also not sure, but it might also be useful for putting out fires as well.
Overall, its totally worth it for a low-level character to do this as its basically an unlimited use Energy Substitution{cold) Subdual Burning Hands spell cast by a 4th level caster(though it can be used tactically like an unlimited duration Wall spell and it ignores SR!). As a longtime Wizard/Sorcerer player, I could find uses for...
the only problem with all these good ideas is that fire causes the brown mold to grow, so a fire spell lobbed at the PCs might cause the brown mold to burst the back or completely cover your shovel and probably grow over your armor or clothing! Also, you have to be able to avoid the cold damage yourself. Remember that if you take enough nonlethal damage (subdual damage in 3.0) then you start taking lethal damage. Finally, cold creatures you face would probably kill the mold on contact and not take any damage! You have to get around thses problems before the brown mold becomes a serviceable weapon (not to mention the trouble the PCs face with storing the mold).
Any cold spell that deals lethal damage destroys the mold. A ray of frost destroys a 5-foot patch, and a cone of cold destroys lots of 5-foot patches at once. The difference is the area the spells affect.
How does brown mold react with water? If you threw enough into a pool, would it freeze?
If it is really humid in the room, would it snow? lol
the only problem with all these good ideas is that fire causes the brown mold to grow, so a fire spell lobbed at the PCs might cause the brown mold to burst the back or completely cover your shovel and probably grow over your armor or clothing!
Well, the description of Brown Mold in the DMG doesn't say anything about it being especially stickier than normal moss, mold, or fungus, so we can assume that it obeys the laws of gravity and grows like a normal mold (time elapsed, of course).
Since you are carrying it on a 10' pole, it will have to grow twice to affect you, and three times to inconvenience you more than the initial damage and a 5' step (once to double and grow from the pole to the floor, twice to fill another 5 feet, and a third time to put you ankle-deep in it).
Basically, if you are a low-level party and you've been hit by three Area of Effect fire spells in one round (since a longer time period would allow you to drop the stick and back away before it could affect you), then you are already dead from fire damage and the subject of mold growing on you is moot. Low-level characters have few HPs and poor defenses, and the point where they can be hit by several Area of Effect spells and not get a TPK is well after Brown Mold has stopped being a useful weapon.
Also, you have to be able to avoid the cold damage yourself. Remember that if you take enough nonlethal damage (subdual damage in 3.0) then you start taking lethal damage. Finally, cold creatures you face would probably kill the mold on contact and not take any damage! You have to get around these problems before the brown mold becomes a serviceable weapon (not to mention the trouble the PCs face with storing the mold).
Why fight Cold-based creatures with Brown Mold? They'd be immune to it(as even Cold Resistance 10 effectively negates most of its effects).
And why invest in cold resistance? A Mold user should have no intention of ever being inside its effect, and if it happened by accident, then the damage is only nonlethal (which does not become lethal in 3.5). Cure spells also fix nonlethal damage especially well while people are curing real HP damage, and nonlethal damage heals while you are just walking around the adventure.
Since the mold uses a nonmagical efect to generate its cold, I see no reason why a normal, well-insulated chest couldn't serve as a way to transport it (and keep your beer cold!).
Any cold spell that deals lethal damage destroys the mold. A ray of frost destroys a 5-foot patch, and a cone of cold destroys lots of 5-foot patches at once. The difference is the area the spells affect.
If it forces a caster to waste an entire combat action to kill the Mold (assuming he had the necessary knowledge and spells), then that’s more than worth lugging it around.
Since Brown mold averages 10.5 damage a round, it ceases to be combat effective well before Cone of Cold comes into the game. If anyone is lugging it around at 10th level, then they deserve to have it get destroyed once in a while. Luckily, its easy to grow if you have access to cold magic and a dark spot.
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On the issue of whether it freezes water: I'd say no, or else it would be covered in frost (from condensed water in the air) that would insulate creatures from its effect and destroy itself (as cold damage kills it).
I assume it regularly stays at just above the freezing point of water (to water itself by condensing water) and then "flash freezes" when living creatures get near, using its own growth to break up any ice deposits on its surface.
From a flavor standpoint, its kind of cool and a little bit little creepier if the mold shivers a bit (to break up ice deposits) and crackles a bit (breaking ice) when it is sucking heat.
All of your points are valid K and deal with the issues I addressed, but that's why I posted the message in the first place. I wanted someone to answer the questions PCs or DMs might ask themselves. In fact, I once created an NPC knight who kept a sack of brown mold in his larder to keep it cool and the PCs were flabbergasted that he would do such a thing.
Using the mold as an effective weapon is still problematic though, as its an unwieldy way of inflicting cold damage on your enemies (and does not affect undead or constructs). Also, the PCs have to be careful they aren't catching each other (or allies, familiars, etc.) in the brown mold's effect. In the chaos of combat this could become impossible.
Here's a few more points:
1. I think the brown mold on a shovel in a bag attack is quite feasible, but must there must be some logic attached to it. Molds normally grow in wet or humid locations, and do poorly in bright or direct sunlight (or complete darkness) so PCs need to figure out some way of keeping the brown mold alive over extended periods of time (magic would help, as would the Knowledge {nature} skill). Of course not all molds follow these rules, let alone magic molds.
2. Fire brought within 5 feet of brown mold (it does not even have to be touching it) causes it to grow, so PCs relying on lanterns or normal torches have to be careful. The mold will grow and their light sources will fizzle. Then their are the mages...
3. Since a single patch of brown mold drops the temperature around it by 30 degrees this alone could be vexing for PCs, especially if they have to start making Fortitude saves to avoid cold fatigue or frostbite because their mold drops the temperature too dangerous levels (if they are in a cold climate already).
4. How secure or thick does a container need to be to stop the brown mold's effects? How do you get the mold out of the container or back into it without resorting to spells to protect yourself from the cold damage?
More problems for you to address K. I look forward to your responses.
by the way K, thanks for updating me on the nonlethal damage rule. Im not sure I fully agree with the change to the rule, but Im glad you pointed it out to me :-)
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Monte Cook used this trick in his module "A Paladin in Hell". Since the devils were resistant to cold they were lobbing it about everywhere.Ten-foot pole + shovel + rope = 3d6 on a stick!
The Barbazu who were lobbing the brown mold in aPiH were using staves enchanted with magical cold to manipulate it... Only a few baatezu are immune to cold (Gelugon and Amnizu come to mind as they roam the icy layers of Stygia and Cania).
-I am a Vrock, I'm a Tanar'ri!
Actually, I'm not sure gelugons have cold immunity in the 3.5 Monster Manual or the SRD. Perhaps there is errata for this, perhaps not. Most devils in 3.5 have cold resistance 10, so they could tolerate the brown mold for a while.
Phil that is one of the reasons why I suggested using it as a trap...
I would imagine that any sealed container could stem the effects so long as the PC handling it wore gloves. Kinda like handling dry ice, or "Nitro"...
The only foreseeable problem would be: where are a bunch of first level players going to get such a container (which would have to be big enough to hod a 5' mass of the stuff.
Unless they just take a "sample" like a scientist would then go home and "grow it in a test tube" for future use on future adventures. Might make a good research topic for the party mage during "down time".
Using the mold as an effective weapon is still problematic though, as its an unwieldy way of inflicting cold damage on your enemies (and does not affect undead or constructs). Also, the PCs have to be careful they aren't catching each other (or allies, familiars, etc.) in the brown mold's effect. In the chaos of combat this could become impossible.
I'd put in the same difficulty class as using AoO effects like Burning Hands or the Wall spells. A little foresight and you are good to go.
Here's a few more points:1. I think the brown mold on a shovel in a bag attack is quite feasible, but must there must be some logic attached to it. Molds normally grow in wet or humid locations, and do poorly in bright or direct sunlight (or complete darkness) so PCs need to figure out some way of keeping the brown mold alive over extended periods of time (magic would help, as would the Knowledge {nature} skill). Of course not all molds follow these rules, let alone magic molds.
Well, since the stuff doubles in the presence of open flame, I think that we can assume that its fairly hardy and easy to grow by anyone with access to fire. Cold climates are most likely the only place where they do not grow, as cold damage of any kind kills them.
2. Fire brought within 5 feet of brown mold (it does not even have to be touching it) causes it to grow, so PCs relying on lanterns or normal torches have to be careful. The mold will grow and their light sources will fizzle. Then their are the mages...
Everburning Torches cost 50 gp, and are not open flame (they are illusions). Since that’s well within the means of even a 2nd level character, I'd go that route (and keep the alchemist's fire handy for the times when I need the Brown Mold to grow and block off a large area).
3. Since a single patch of brown mold drops the temperature around it by 30 degrees this alone could be vexing for PCs, especially if they have to start making Fortitude saves to avoid cold fatigue or frostbite because their mold drops the temperature too dangerous levels (if they are in a cold climate already).
Any temperature cold enough to inflict cold damage kills Brown Mold, so either Brown Mold suicides in mildly chilly ambient weather, or goes into some kind of dormant state. I vote for the dormant state.
4. How secure or thick does a container need to be to stop the brown mold's effects? How do you get the mold out of the container or back into it without resorting to spells to protect yourself from the cold damage?
Well, Dungeon #98 (a 3.5 compliant issue), page`38, has Brown Mold safely contained by a small metal box (where it was providing enough cold to store meat, but not kill anyone in the area). I'd use a regular chest insulated with my extra winter blanket, possibly with half-filled water bladders that would ice up and force the mold to go dormant. Once you get back to civilization, construct something more permanent (and trapped.... Brown Mold is dangerous!).
The ideal solution is a Bag of Holding, but by the time you can afford that, you are phasing out Brown Mold as a viable weapon.
Taking it in and out of the box is merely a matter of using the 10 foot pole/shovel. Several kinds of polearms are also quite fine for cutting the mold into manageable sections for transport or scraping it up if it falls off your stick.
Excellent responses K. Yet again you have come up with some interesting points of clarification. If I come up with any more conundrums regarding the use of brown mold I'll post them. Until then, I hope to see you on some of the other boards.
K, I can't find any definitive text to refer you to at the moment, but a brown mold will definitely kill you if you are exposed to it for too long. If it reduces you to negative hp in nonlethal damage, if you're still hanging around there on the following round, it's going to deal real damage and basically suck every last bit of warmth out of your body, effectively freezing you to death.
Check out pgs. 302-304 of the Dungeon Master's Guide for some more insight into the effects of nonlethal damage from your environment (i.e. cold). Also, a good read for more clarification on the effects of cold would be Frostburn.
Anyway, just wanted to point that out. The reason a Brown Mold is a CR 2 is because it is deadly. Just like green slime and yellow mold also in the same section of the DMG.
Taking nonlethal cold damage (from any source) results in frostbite (-2 penalty to Dex) and hypothermia (subject is fatigued). As Steve pointed out, the rules for both can be found in Chapter 8 of the DMG and in the Frostburn book. Since brown mold inflicts nonlethal cold damage it causes both frostbite and hypothermia to those affected by it.
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The whole idea of carrying brown mold with a 10' pole is a poor one. Try walking around your yard with a 10' pole for a demonstration of why. Pass around and between a few trees. Not so easy. Note that you can't hang onto the END of the 10' and hold it up at all, much less with a bag of mold attached to the other end. To even lift it, you have to hold onto the pole in the middle (hey, that's only 5' away from the end!) and even then it is a cumbersome, unwieldy burden. Now imagine trying to maneuver through your average dungeon with it. I initially thought the suggestion was a joke, but as discussion of it continues, I realize some are actually thinking this is a plausible idea.
K, I can't find any definitive text to refer you to at the moment, but a brown mold will definitely kill you if you are exposed to it for too long.
If I'm not mistaken, one of the things that they changed in 3.5 from 3.0 is that they (Dungeons & Dragons design staff) became very vague as to what happens when you drop below 0 hit points from non-lethal damage. In 3.0 it was very specific that if you took more non-lethal damage than you had maximum hit points, the non-lethal became lethal and you could die from these injuries (at least the way I remember the rules).
I'll check on it again, though. I don't have Frostburn, so I'm assuming that they have reincorporated the text from 3.0 back into 3.5? Is this the case, Steve?
But I'm in agreemment that it stands to reason that even subdual damage over time can kill.
K, I can't find any definitive text to refer you to at the moment, but a brown mold will definitely kill you if you are exposed to it for too long. If it reduces you to negative hp in nonlethal damage, if you're still hanging around there on the following round, it's going to deal real damage and basically suck every last bit of warmth out of your body, effectively freezing you to death.
Check out pgs. 302-304 of the Dungeon Master's Guide for some more insight into the effects of nonlethal damage from your environment (i.e. cold). Also, a good read for more clarification on the effects of cold would be Frostburn.
Mmm, I was looking at the 3.5 rules on nonlethal damage.
After looking at the Frostburn and DMG rules, it seems that nonlethal cold damage uses a different set of rules than any other kind of nonlethal damage. It can start to kill you if you have taken your full HP in nonlethal damage and has hypothermia and frostbite rules attached to it.
I guess we also have to now note that the Brown mold causes fatigue (-2 STR and DEX, no run or charge) and hypothermia (-2 DEX). Since it doesn't have a save, you technically can't get any of the more advanced forms or hypothermia, since those require that you fail a Fort check vs the effect to get the medium and advanced forms of hypothermia, and Brown Mold doesn't allow saves. It's a technicality, but there you go.
This does mean that, from now on, all of my low-level mages will be taking the feat Nonlethal Substitution and casting Ray of Frost as a viable combat action!
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The 10' pole with Brown Mold on the end is awkward for low STR characters. Not arguing that. In that case, its really a "during this adventure" technique where you end up dragging and sliding it on the floor most of the time (pole end scraping the floor while the bag hangs suspended). For further adventures, you'd get a metal-tipped Darkwood pole with a counterweight that breaks down into 3' sections with a "Mold dish" made of hardened leather (maybe with metal wheels), or just using a Tenser's Floating Disk with a platform to move it around, as this spell can move up to 25 +(5 per level) feet away from you at your command and lasts an hour per level.
I applaud your enthusiasm but make a technical point. TFD is not commandable except as to the distance it remains from the caster. It only follows. This has been the base description since 1E and is covered in WOTC FAQ. Of course, some play by house rules involving a directable TFD. If this is your case, chill on!
From the FAQ:
"Can you ride your own Tenser’s floating disk?
No. While you could command your Tenser’s floating disk to move close enough for you to sit upon it, it has no ability to move under its own power. It can only follow you at a maximum rate equal to your normal speed."
The vagueness of it really bugs me. I hate not knowing for sure how to treat an encounter with a brown mold. It isn't really a cold attack, per se. It's the warmth being sucked out of a creature's body to feed the mold. So, you wouldn't need to make Fort saves against exposure to cold or a cold enviroment. But it stands to reason that if you have lost all your hit points in nonlethal damage that the next round will be real damage, IMO. Sorry to confuse the issue further. You may opt to add the penalties of frostbite and hypothermia in to the mix, but those affects usually allow a Fort save against the elements that cause them and a brown mold simply is not a cold subtype creature.
Very confusing. I sent off an e-mail to sageadvice@paizo.com for clarification. I will share whatever answer I get with you all. I have a brown mold encounter of my own I plan to run within the next couple weeks and would hate to screw my players over because of a misinterpration of the game rules ;)
The vagueness of it really bugs me. I hate not knowing for sure how to treat an encounter with a brown mold. It isn't really a cold attack, per se. It's the warmth being sucked out of a creature's body to feed the mold. So, you wouldn't need to make Fort saves against exposure to cold or a cold enviroment. But it stands to reason that if you have lost all your hit points in nonlethal damage that the next round will be real damage, IMO. Sorry to confuse the issue further. You may opt to add the penalties of frostbite and hypothermia in to the mix, but those affects usually allow a Fort save against the elements that cause them and a brown mold simply is not a cold subtype creature.
Hypothermia is the result of the body losing too much heat due to exposure to cold weather. Since brown mold sucks the warmth directly from your body it would definitely cause hypothermia. Frostbite is the freezing of extremeties due to cold exposure. Whether having the heat sucked from your body in large doses freezes your extremities is something that players could debate. I think that brown mold would do both, but that's just me.
At some point nonlethal damage would have to transform into lethal damage, otherwise what happens when someone keeps on beating your head in with a sap after you have been knocked out. I could go on, but talking about nonlethal damage probably belongs on another thread.
At some point nonlethal damage would have to transform into lethal damage, otherwise what happens when someone keeps on beating your head in with a sap after you have been knocked out. I could go on, but talking about nonlethal damage probably belongs on another thread.
Agreed. When in doubt I go with the common sense approach, but it's nice to have a definitive game rule so I don't have to make judgement calls ;)
Hypothermia is the result of the body losing too much heat due to exposure to cold weather. Since brown mold sucks the warmth directly from your body it would definitely cause hypothermia. Frostbite is the freezing of extremeties due to cold exposure. Whether having the heat sucked from your body in large doses freezes your extremities is something that players could debate. I think that brown mold would do both, but that's just me.
That's just me too. As you stated, frostbite is the result of your tissue freezing and dying due to the lack of oxygen since circulation is decreased. The act of sticking your hand in a COLD environment and it freezing is no different than having the heat removed from your hand. It is still being frozen. It is all about the differences in temperature trying to reach an equilibrium, regardless of the method (unfortunately your body loses).