I have a player who has just gotten the shrink object spell and of course the first thing he wants to to is shrink a boulder, throw it at someone, and have it returned to it's original size before it hits them. He is able to shrink a 3 cubic ft. boulder which would weigh several tons. This is not a real high level spell, and there are so many different uses for the spell that I think the high number of hp damage this boulder or a shrunken ballista bolt could do is excessive. Has anyone dealt with this issue before in a satisfactory way that doesn't lend itself to abuse? This has had to have come up in someone's game as it seems to be an obvious use of this spell.
Thanks for the help!
DM Dave
Well, Dave, I guess this is another case of someone abusing the "spirit" of a spell because of creative interpretation. Why do players do this? I dunno. . .
On page 176 of the PH, it says that dismissing a spell is a standard action. Therefore, you can't make a ranged attack and dismiss the spell in the same round. However, the wording of the spell specifically states something about the object dispelling once it hits the ground, or by muttering a word or two. Personally, I would go ahead and rule that it requires a standard action to dismiss, especially if they want top try and make an attack out of it.
Let's say you don't like that idea:
Alternatively, you can rule that making a ranged attack with a shunken object is impossible. Here's why: First of all, your aiming your attack using a diminutive object. You throw with a particular application of force, and the object sails onward through its predicatable arc. Suddenly, on command the object is huge and very heavy. The force needed to propel the object on the expected path would be many, many times greater than what was used when the object was diminutive. Therefore, the boulder IMMEDIATELY drops straight down instead of continuing along the thrown arc.
If this STILL doesn't fly:
Tell the dude to pick another spell, because that particular use of it is kind of bunk.
I hope those are helpful sugesstions. :)
- Chris
Well, Dave, I guess this is another case of someone abusing the "spirit" of a spell because of creative interpretation. Why do players do this? I dunno. . .
Because players are Evil...Evil I tell you. Players are the bane of every DM...
If we could just figure a way of getting by without any players we could get rid of so many hassles and complications that crop up during the game.
From my experience players are the number one cause of frustration for the DM in nearly every campaign. The only other catagory of problem that comes even close is 'Real Life'. In fact it would be ideal if we could figure out a way of getting rid of the players and 'Real Life'. Then the game would be just about hassle free...
Ya know, it isn't the player's that bother so much. . . It's all the rice crispy squares I eat. I can't help it. I buy a box of 24 of 'em before most games, and then by the end, we've eaten them all.
We played last night.
Now, this morning, during my sugar hangover, I can still see the empty box, discarded by the couch. Snap, Crackle, and Pop stare hapily up at me, as my stomach does cartwheels and my head throbs.
Why, oh why, do I play this game?
Eh. I'd just let the player do it. It's just a game and he clearly fancies the idea. I'd just let the guy have his fun.
If you're playing with mature individuals, they can have some fun hitting people with boulders every now and then, but they won't do anything with this notion that would reduce the quality of the game.
Maybe I'm just weird, though.
Eh. I'd just let the player do it. It's just a game and he clearly fancies the idea. I'd just let the guy have his fun.
If you're playing with mature individuals, they can have some fun hitting people with boulders every now and then, but they won't do anything with this notion that would reduce the quality of the game.
That's a really good point.
Of course, in the case of a less-mature player, stricter rules may be needed to preserve everyone's fun.
There's no real right or wrong answer. It just has to be felt-out.
Ya know, it isn't the player's that bother so much. . . It's all the rice crispy squares I eat. I can't help it. I buy a box of 24 of 'em before most games, and then by the end, we've eaten them all.
We played last night.
Now, this morning, during my sugar hangover, I can still see the empty box, discarded by the couch. Snap, Crackle, and Pop stare hapily up at me, as my stomach does cartwheels and my head throbs.
Why, oh why, do I play this game?
Chris -
The snacks people bring are a particular frustration for me as well. It's really hard to keep to a diet when your entire gaming group is pigging out. - sigh -
- Ashavan
I have a player who has just gotten the shrink object spell and...
DM Dave
Geez - I see what you mean. 2 cubic feet per level, dispel on command and the duration is one day per level.
Certianly the kind of spell that ruins DMs days. I'd consider nerfing the spell be removing the dispel on command feature and saying something like it slowly regrows to its original size over the course of X number of rounds. basically more rounds then would be usually useful in a fight. The way the spell is set up now its far to useful as a combat spell but I don't think of this as a combat spell but more of a spell useful in messing up the DMs day by shrinking the support beams holding up the Dungeon.
So the player should be able to make boulders from thrown stones...but not just before it hits the Drow Priestess. Especially since the boulder's no longer magical - all of a sudden this starts looking like the best combat spell in the game 3 ton boulders that ignores magic resistance.
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Eh. I'd just let the player do it. It's just a game and he clearly fancies the idea. I'd just let the guy have his fun.
If you're playing with mature individuals, they can have some fun hitting people with boulders every now and then, but they won't do anything with this notion that would reduce the quality of the game.
Maybe I'm just weird, though.
I actually agree with you, Yamo (and this is like the third or fourth time in as many days...stop it! You're creepin' me out! ;) ). Think about the fun situation you can have the first time your player forgets to use up a boulder before the duration wears off and he wakes up in camp with a...pressing problem sitting on his person or gear.
It's always difficult to determine what level of real physics vs. comic book/cinematic physics to use. Generally, I opt for the cinematic, just because it's a bit more swashbuckling and it tends to pump the players up a bit. Just decide on the level that's the most fun for everyone involved.
Now, you also mentioned a balista bolt, as well...Damn! That could be nasty...imagine shooting a shrunken balista bolt out of a crossbow, getting a good solid hit where the bolt imbeds, then dispelling the shrink. Holy crap, that's gonna leave a mark!! But it'll look really sweet if the player pulls it off.
Ok, Shrink Item can be dismissed by hitting it against something or a command word.
This means that your PC can Shrink Item bonfires, pools of acid or holy water, lava, or boulders.
Now, DnD rules about Polymorph show that when two objects superimposing the same square due to transmutation magic means that the expanding creature/object is shunted into the nearest open space with no damage to either party.
So tossing boulders and the like just gets you a boulder next to your enemy. Balls of lava or burning coals that spread to other squares will have to be houseruled by you, but 2d6 to 4d6 of damage per round sounds about right based on the exposure rules.
The spell gets deadly when you combine it with the "dropping objects on guys" rules in Heroes of Battle. If your PC is flying, he can fly over a target, dismiss the spell, make an attack roll vs 5(range increment of 40 ft) and using the scatter rules on a miss, then creatures in the square hit make a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid. Potentially, that means a lot of falling object damage(per the DMG).
Ok, Shrink Item can be dismissed by hitting it against something or a command word.
This means that your PC can Shrink Item bonfires, pools of acid or holy water, lava, or boulders.
Now, DnD rules about Polymorph show that when two objects superimposing the same square due to transmutation magic means that the expanding creature/object is shunted into the nearest open space with no damage to either party.
However I don't think the players plan to hit the Drow priestess with the rock and then unshrink it. The idea is you take your rock and throw it at the enemy - before it actually hits them and while it still has enough room to expand you dismiss the spell. Personally I'd want to try for pop flys if the space was available. That way you could throw the rock and when it was just coming out of its apex you dismiss it and a 6 ton rock squashes flat whatever annoying bad guy was below it. I guess they would probably get some kind of a reflex save to avoid being turned into so much pulp, though.
Though if your rules are correct regarding polymorphing and such then its actually better for the players. If they did forget about the 6 ton rock and it grows back while their trying to catch some sleep or something they will have a rude awakening when they are shunted aside but won't actually be harmed.
Ok, Shrink Item can be dismissed by hitting it against something or a command word.
This means that your PC can Shrink Item bonfires, pools of acid or holy water, lava, or boulders.
Now, DnD rules about Polymorph show that when two objects superimposing the same square due to transmutation magic means that the expanding creature/object is shunted into the nearest open space with no damage to either party.
However I don't think the players plan to hit the Drow priestess with the rock and then unshrink it. The idea is you take your rock and throw it at the enemy - before it actually hits them and while it still has enough room to expand you dismiss the spell. Personally I'd want to try for pop flys if the space was available. That way you could throw the rock and when it was just coming out of its apex you dismiss it and a 6 ton rock squashes flat whatever annoying bad guy was below it. I guess they would probably get some kind of a reflex save to avoid being turned into so much pulp, though.
Though if your rules are correct regarding polymorphing and such then its actually better for the players. If they did forget about the 6 ton rock and it grows back while their trying to catch some sleep or something they will have a rude awakening when they are shunted aside but won't actually be harmed.
I really appreciate everyone's help with this issue. I think I will end up using either the polymorph rules on superimposed objects, or increase the time it takes to grow an object back to it's original size to 10 rounds. The 10 round rule for returning an object to it's normal size could still be useful in some trap making scenario and leaves all of the other uses of the spell intact. Another alternative, if I wanted to let the spell be useful as a combat spell, would be to increase the spell level from a 2 to a 7 or thereabouts. I don't know of any 2nd level offensive spell that can do up to 27d6 of damage such as this one could if I let the player go with the "throw the rock and turn it into a boulder right before it hits" ploy. Alternatively, if he wants an offensive spell, I can give him the opportunity to ditch this one in favor of an offensive spell. Some of the other uses this player has come up with for the spell are shrinking locked doors or portcullises and returning them to a regular size in a narrow passageway when being chased. The fun never ends!
DM Dave
Some of the other uses this player has come up with for the spell are shrinking locked doors or portcullises and returning them to a regular size in a narrow passageway when being chased. The fun never ends!
Wow! THAT is a great use of the spell, and it's still in the original spirit of the spell.
Also, if you cast the spell, and it's technically "active," is the slot used up until Shrink Object is dispelled? I don't remember how this works, but it't another possible wrinkle. . .
I would say let the player do it. Now there might need to be a spot check or something to see the rock and thus dispell the spell right before it strikes the target.
I would agree that the enlarged item would not continue to fly though the air with the force needed to throw it while shrunk. High lobs would be the order of the day.
A couple other notes.
Others could learn the trick and use it back on the players
How many rocks is this PC lugging around? What would 'Dispell Magic' do to the PC? The expanding rocks would at the least tear pockets and clothing, and could even possibly crush the PC or his gear...or familiar.
ASEO out
Some of the other uses this player has come up with for the spell are shrinking locked doors or portcullises and returning them to a regular size in a narrow passageway when being chased. The fun never ends!
Wow! THAT is a great use of the spell, and it's still in the original spirit of the spell.
Also, if you cast the spell, and it's technically "active," is the slot used up until Shrink Object is dispelled? I don't remember how this works, but it't another possible wrinkle. . .
My interpretation is that the object remains shrunk until it is dispelled or the spell duration expires (5 days I think, but I would have to look it up). The PC is able to cast it as many times a day as he has 2nd level spell slots. His plan is to carry up to 5 items at all times, and to just recast the spell on the object before the duration expires. It is one of the prerequisite spells to have if he later wants to make a Robe of Useful Items. He is tracking his timing, and I trust him to be truthful with it. I think another interesting variation might be to have the item remain shrunken for 1d4+1 days and have the dm make the roll and not tell him the result. That could make the spell more dangerous for the PC but it would be just another thing for the DM to keep track of. It could make for some funny or nailbiting gameplay though!
DM Dave
Others could learn the trick and use it back on the players
Thats my problem with the spell - as a DM you I can't reasonably use this on the players. My 3rd levele mage baddie tosses the shruncken boulder and I tell some player to make a reflex save or take 27d6 damage. Until one is high level this essentially amounts to save or die. My players are going to revolt if this happens more then very occasionaly. Most players don't fancy being faced with save or die situations where they don't even bring things down on themselves but just have the DM arbitrarly squash them.
This however is the argument one uses to get the spell nerfed...if you could do it so could the baddies. Most players are going to agree that they don't want to be tossing killer rocks that nearly automatically kill the enemy if teh enemy is going to toss the rocks back nearly aurtomatically killing them.
Thats my problem with the spell - as a DM you I can't reasonably use this on the players. My 3rd levele mage baddie tosses the shruncken boulder and I tell some player to make a reflex save or take 27d6 damage.
I'd never introduce this idea to a game through the Bad guys. However if you, the DM, are finding your players using the spell in this manner, then I would think it would be fair to have word of this type use get out, and eventually find its way into the tactic inventory of some villian.
On a side note, What other "Legal" factors have you seen PCs use that caused a problem in your games?
I've been amazed by the power of a Grappling Barbarian character in my current game. He has the proper feats, and add in Rage and Bull's Stength along with the ocasional Enlarge, and he ends up with like a +30 to his Grapple.
I also was awed by the damage that a first level human fighter (32 pt character) with a 18 STR could do with a Great Sword.
Thoughts?
ASEO out
My interpretation is that the object remains shrunk until it is dispelled or the spell duration expires (5 days I think, but I would have to look it up). The PC is able to cast it as many times a day as he has 2nd level spell slots. His plan is to carry up to 5 items at all times, and to just recast the spell on the object before the duration expires. It is one of the prerequisite spells to have if he later wants to make a Robe of Useful Items. He is tracking his timing, and I trust him to be truthful with it. I think another interesting variation might be to have the item remain shrunken for 1d4+1 days and have the dm make the roll and not tell him the result. That could make the spell more dangerous for the PC but it would be just another thing for the DM to keep track of. It could make for some funny or nailbiting gameplay though!
In our campaign, I am playing an elf rogue/wizard who has this spell. So far our DM has been pretty strick about the use of it. Because the discription says that you can shrink boulders and a bonfire and fuel, I HAVE tried doing both (and even the holy water and acid...). The boulders were easy, but he ruled that I couldn't throw them for reasons similar to what some of you mentioned above. The bonfire he allowed, but each time I've done it I do take damage and must success on my Concentration checks. With a bonfire, the damage hasn't been so bad. The probelm with the acid was the damage and I seem to fail my Concentration saves each time...so I've pretty much given up on that. Holy water has been an issue because of the cost, since I am not a priest and we don't have one in our party.
But things like water have posed the problem of the area. You couldn't shrink 4 cubic feet out of a lake, because the body as a whole is much greater. Doors and support beams have posed the same problem, because they are usually connected somehow and not free-standing. I suppose that shrinking a door could work and it might bust off it's hinges in the process and even a support beam if it is a separate piece. But that is the kind of material you might only find in the crudest of mines and dungeons. Other ones we've tried have been large rectangular boards of spikes, large stone blocks for blocking doorways, and things like wagons. Of course no matter what the wizard shrinks, an always looming threat is the that the items unshrink. My companions forgot about my shrunken bonfire as they lugged my corpse back to town for a resurrection and it was only luck that it wasn't on my body when it expired and unshrunk. But also, things like impact hits on my backpack and falling have triggered these items to unshrink before.
Honestly it's been fun using this spell and seeing what the DM allows. Throwing shrunken boulders and unshrinking them before they hit does seem a bit unfair though. But that said, if the DM allows it, it is only fair that the bad guys might use similar tactics. And of course, making it interesting and unpredictable makes it that much more fun.
Anyways, that's my two cents...
I have a player who has just gotten the shrink object spell and of course the first thing he wants to to is shrink a boulder, throw it at someone, and have it returned to it's original size before it hits them.
Ok...
He is able to shrink a 3 cubic ft. boulder which would weigh several tons.
I have granite at 162.3 lb. per cubic foot. I think your boulder would only weigh about 487 lb., but let's just use the rules to figure this one out...
I think the high number of hp damage this boulder or a shrunken ballista bolt could do is excessive.
Shrink Item says "This change effectively reduces the object’s size by four categories."
So, let's say your Sor/Wiz player character flings his rock. Assuming he's a medium-sized fellow, we'll call it a medium-sized improvised weapon doing damage similar to a light hammer (1d4). He must make a normal ranged attack at -4 with a range increment of 10 ft.
In mid flight, the rock swells four size categories. If he's lucky enough to hit, it now deals 3d6 points of damage plus strength bonus. See Table 5-1: Damage for Larger Weapons on page 43 of Savage Species.
I'll bet you he prepares Scorching Ray next time!
I have a player who has just gotten the shrink object spell and of course the first thing he wants to to is shrink a boulder, throw it at someone, and have it returned to it's original size before it hits them.Ok...
He is able to shrink a 3 cubic ft. boulder which would weigh several tons.I have granite at 162.3 lb. per cubic foot. I think your boulder would only weigh about 487 lb., but let's just use the rules to figure this one out...
I think the high number of hp damage this boulder or a shrunken ballista bolt could do is excessive.Shrink Item says "This change effectively reduces the object’s size by four categories."
So, let's say your Sor/Wiz player character flings his rock. Assuming he's a medium-sized fellow, we'll call it a medium-sized improvised weapon doing damage similar to a light hammer (1d4). He must make a normal ranged attack at -4 with a range increment of 10 ft.
In mid flight, the rock swells four size categories. If he's lucky enough to hit, it now deals 3d6 points of damage plus strength bonus. See Table 5-1: Damage for Larger Weapons on page 43 of Savage Species.
I'll bet you he prepares Scorching Ray next time!
I'd hesitate before establishing that a half ton of rock does 10 or so points of damage if it falls on you. 3d6 is more for something like the 70 pound rocks the stone giants are tossing about.
If I say a half ton of rock does a mere 3d6 when dropped by players on enemies I'm stuck with that as damage when I drop a half ton of rock on the player from the cieling in a trap. Or I am in my game anyway as my players would remind me that the rules work both ways.
I'd hesitate before establishing that a half ton of rock does 10 or so points of damage if it falls on you. 3d6 is more for something like the 70 pound rocks the stone giants are tossing about.
If I say a half ton of rock does a mere 3d6 when dropped by players on enemies I'm stuck with that as damage when I drop a half ton of rock on the player from the cieling in a trap. Or I am in my game anyway as my players would remind me that the rules work both ways.
A few points to be made here:
1. Half-ton = 1000 lb.
2. We're talking about a thrown weapon here. Gravity isn't much of a factor in damage.
3. Nevertheless, let's look at the rules for damage from falling objects...
"For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage)."
Our 487 lb. boulder would deal 2d6 damage if dropped on a foe from 10 ft. above the target. A 1000 lb. (half-ton) rock would deal 5d6.
Here's a few more points to remember:
1) Dismissing a spell or using a command word is a standard action, so a wizard or sorcerer could not throw a pebble and command it to return to its normal size in the same round. He would have to give it to another player and use a readied action to command it to enlarge at the right time.
2) Because of the command word limitation you could never throw and enlarge more than one pebble at a time, but...
3) Remember that the shrunken object returns to its normal size when it strikes a solid object. When this happens is up to the DM. He may have the object return to normal size just in time to inflict damage or say that the pebble hits and then returns to its normal size after it has lost all momentum.
There are lots of other uses for shrink object. How 'bout someone come up with a list of uses for the shrink item spell. Also, can anyone say turn pebble to boulder. I'm sure that nifty old 2nd edition spell has been redone somewhere for 3.5.
Mmmmm... It seems that some of my points were already made by Chris. That's the trouble with threads, sometimes you end up hearing the same thing over and over again!