You make a good point, but I think the strength of the box helps explain why the treasure the party is trying to recover has not already been plundered.
You could always change the adventure so that the party finds an easy to open - but unfortunately empty! - box instead. This of course spawns more adventures as they try to track down each of the missing items...
Having read this adventure myself, the explanation, which I think the writer is trying to convey, is that this lockbox was crafted during the merchant's heyday. i.e., he had a lot of money at that point in his life and could afford such nice things. It also balances out the level of magic items that are inside of it.
A rust proof box is a no brainer considering his profession and magically treated materials is no stretch of game mechanics. It's there for any and all to use in the DMG pg. 60. The table there is a listing of walls, but it can be applied to any material, really. Because Mike has left the exacts statistics of the box out means that he is leaving the details up to your discretion as the DM.
I've seen some things in Dungeon that I really disagreed with, like huge snakes entering rooms through 6" wide arrow slits. Sorry, Greg Vaughn, either you or the editors at Paizo screwed up on that one ;). But this isn't one I would get nuts over.
I don't have any problem with the box's properties -- it was well within the merchant's former power to have such a box made. In fact, the box is too easy to open, IMO. A CL 14 arcane lock is certainly difficult for 2nd level PCs to dispel, but wouldn't just a CL 3 knock spell bypass the arcane lock automatically? The PCs would just need to acquire a scroll of knock or a helpful wizard. What the box needs is a high-level abjuration that seals containers and can only be bypassed by dispel magic or antimagic fields.
I think it's a great idea to have such a tough box. It's a devicer that accounts for immaturity and backstabbing players.
The whole point is that there is supposed to be something of great value in the box. Making it impossible to open prevents your PCs from just taking the treasure tehmselves.
If you want, just reduce the stats to something normal. . . capable of easily being opened by the PCs, but not the baddies on board. In that case, just remember that you should ONLY run this particular adventure with a party of good-aligned PCs (and mature players) who wouldn't go back on their word, or find some silly way to circumvent their verbal contract to "justify" taking the booty.
I'll agree with Nuke's premise: A box that has been DM'd into an unopenable box would not be good. But looking at Steve's post, I'm not sure that is what the adventure says.
The adventure says "magically enhanced iron. Resistant to rust and weapon blows". Checking page 60 of the DMG as Steve points out, we find that "magically treated" increases a break DC by 20, x2 hardness, and doubles the hit points. (I didn't know about this rule til Steve mentioned it).
That section is for walls though, this is a box. So take an iron wall, hit points 90, and divide by about 4 to get 22 hit points. Apply "magically enhanced" and you get a box with break DC50 (and another +10 for Arcane Lock), Hardness 20, and 77HP (using the +50 variant). That's pretty difficult to open (especially for 2nd level characaters), but not impossible.
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And I will say that I really liked this adventure. The spiders swarming out of the woodwork is good and creepy.
I also really liked this adventure. I'm looking at running it as a follow-up to Box of Flumph. I like the idea of the box because it represents the merchant trying to jump start his business again.
I think a great alternative "treasure" that the PCs can gain in this adventure is becoming business partners with Aubrek (sp?) and shareholders in the business that he starts up with the funds from selling off the magic items in the box. The gains could start out small, but as the characters have a greater stake in the profits, Aubrek could become a really good recurring adventure hook NPC.
Just some of my thoughts on another really great adventure in Dungeon.
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I've seen some things in Dungeon that I really disagreed with, like huge snakes entering rooms through 6" wide arrow slits. Sorry, Greg Vaughn, either you or the editors at Paizo screwed up on that one ;).
One of my favorite gaffes was from the Ravenloft module "Ship of Horrors". During a portion of the adventure, the party must recover the bones of some ghosts to lay them to rest. The bones are on the seabed and when the players decend to get them they are attacked by skeletal sharks. Sharks are cartilaginous fish, as the druid I was playing knew. That was the most disturbing feature of Ravenloft for him... The DM was really annoyed by my nit-picking, but it made for some funny RP..."This is a world gone mad...The sharks have bony skeletons!"
To go back on thread...I really like this adventure and can't wait to use it. The end has that great 20000 Leagues under the sea feel (the Disney version with James Mason as Nemo, of course) I just need to make sure to have an NPC on board when the squid attacks to holler out "FOR PELOR'S SAKE, STRAP YOURSELVES DOWN!!"
Until I saw this thread I hadn't even considered there to be an issue with the box at all.
I'm starting from the assumption the PC's are not meant to have what's in the box. When I read what the contents were I nearly leapt out of my chair (this being a 2nd Level Adventure and all). I know my PC's and if it were possible to get a better deal by ripping Aubreck off they'd do it. So, when I read the protections for the box I said: "Whew that should keep the adventure on its intended track".
This leaves me a little confused as to what all the fuss is about. Do any other DM's actually want their PC's to have access to this stuff? Or, is it just the principal of the thing (which, by the way, I'm fine with - PC's don't always have to be able to get whatever they want)?
One minor thing that did irritate me was an inconsistency in the description of the doors on the Emperor’s deck. The general paragraph in area one says both doors open easily; however, the description of area 3 says the door is webbed shut. A goof up like this in the description to the PC's could easily ruin the surprise waiting for them in area 3. But I digress - I think the box is fine the way it is.
Great adventure though. It came at just the right time as I was looking for a 2nd level adventure to run (not enough are offered at this level IMHO).
Nuff fer now
Creative Director
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Sometimes, the D&D economy system doesn't work. This is one of those cases. Plot-wise, it makes sense to have a considerable treasure in the box. If it contained a treasure worthy of 2nd level characters then it wouldn't properly represent what a powerful merchant at the height of his game would consider his "life's savings". And if we up the level of the PCs so that they'll be of a level appropriate for the box treasure, Aubreck can't afford to hire them and the nature of the dungeon becomes child's play, since the PCs can cast fly and water breathing and dominate animal and repel vermin.
Same thing happened with "Throne of Iuz." A 9th level orc has 12,000 gp, but when you have an adventure with a hundred such orcs, you either have a big pile of nerfed orcs or a big pile of treasure.
Sometimes, we at Dungeon make decisions for the story rather than decisions for the game, is what I'm saying. Usually, we err on the side of the game, but once in a while a story's too cool to let the rules get in the way.
Do any other DM's actually want their PC's to have access to this stuff? Or, is it just the principal of the thing (which, by the way, I'm fine with - PC's don't always have to be able to get whatever they want)?
I was planning on running this adventure, but I was not really concerned if the PCs get what’s in the box or not. I am pretty sure that my PCs will try to get the shiny prizes, and when they do then I will have Aubreck hire some other adventurers to mug the backstabbing PCs and take back his stuff. I love when the PCs give NPCs reason to hate them.
Sometimes, the D&D economy system doesn't work. This is one of those cases.
It's not just the D&D economy. The same thing would happen in real life.
If I knew where a horde of $1 million cash was hidden, and was unable to retrieve it myself, I wouldn't be able to hire anyone to retrieve it for me. For if I offered less than $1 million, they'd just keep the cash for themselves, and it would be crazy for me to pay more than $1 million.
There are two things that will allow an transaction like this to work. The first is an enforceable contract. In real life, we do this with lawyers and courts. In D&D, this can be done with a Mark of Justice spell.
The second is if the item to be retrieved is worth more to the employer than the employee. This is what the unbreakable box amounts to. If you don't like the unbreakable box, you could change the treasure to something else more valuable to the employer than the PCs, e.g. a magic potion whose only power is to remove the terrible curse that makes him a business failure.
I had some other thoughts on what to replace the treasure with, if the box should be opened. All these examples are of things valuable to the merchant, but not the PCs:
1. Patents of Nobility - Merchant circles in this particular region only get the good contracts if they have legal patents. His only remaining copy (With a royaa seal) is in the box.
2. Deed to land - this would be in the mercahnt's name, and could not be used by the Pcs. He plans on liquidating this property to get his merchant house back in order.
3. A cursed magic item - this is what is causing the merchant to have such hard luck in the first place... the curse is attuned to him, and if he can finally retrieve the item, he can appease/dispel the curse once and for all.
4. Art Deco objects - these have no value in the open market, but the merchant is in posession of a Djinni ring that can summon a Djinni with a particular taste for such items.
And so on.
I for one, will stick with the magic items. My PCs are mature enough to handle it, and even if they aren't, they can't open the box anyway.
:)
Pending Mike Mearls coming on here and giving the exact stats he had for this box, here is my 2 coppers if anyone wants some actual stats for it.
Mind you, this is simply using what's in the books. An ordinary treasure chest (PHB pg. 166) has hardness 5 (wood), 15 hp, and a Break DC of 23.
Make that same chest magically treated, non-rusting iron and you have an object with hardness 20, 80 hp, and Break DC 53 (43 if the arcane lock is dispelled).
A group of very persistent and greedy PCs should be able to find a way to open it, but that's another story...
Steve -
Those stats sound good. Basically, I wanted the box to be difficult, almost impossible, for the party to open. As James pointed out, sometimes we have to take liberties with the rules for a story to make sense. Believe me, I cringed when I had to deal with the box, since I really don't like DM fiat, but in this case it made sense to me. Otherwise, the entire story falls apart.
I also liked the alternatives that a few people mentioned - making the box contain a potion to break the curse, or an otherwise worthless item that is very useful to Aubreck, is a great idea. If I ran/wrote Salvage Operation again, I'd do something like that.
Frankly, I don't think the "problem" of the box is a problem at all. While, certainly, adventurers should have the chance to try anything that they want, sometimes things can't be done. Just like in real life, sometimes things fail. The characters can't open the box. What's the big deal? They're not supposed to, anyway!
BTW: I thought this was a great adventure! I plan on running it as the first in a new game. :)
I'm also a little disappointed that the handouts and maps from #123 haven't been uploaded yet. :(
BTW: I thought this was a great adventure! I plan on running it as the first in a new game. :)
This is a great adventure. I plan on running it at a higher level, as soon as I take over Dming duties again. I may have to put it in the middle of a large, saltwater lake, considering where the PCs are when I last left them, but I don't care. . . the kraken attack is too cool.
>> Just like in real life, sometimes things fail. The characters can't open the box. What's the big deal?
You're correct, sometimes players can't do something. It's the WHY of how they can't do it that is an issue. If the WHY falls within the rules of the game, that's understandable.
If the WHY is simply "because the DM says so", in violation of the rules, then that's not so good. It makes the players feel the DM is out to screw them, it's unfair that the players play by the rules and the DM doesn't, and destroys the "reality" of the game.
If you can trust your players around those magic items, then the stats for the magically treated box is a better solution. Or if you don't trust them, the ideas for treasure that is valuable to the merchant but not to the PCs is a good solution as well.
I agree with James position though, sometimes the DM will just have to break the rules. This wasn't one of those cases though.
I've seen some things in Dungeon that I really disagreed with, like huge snakes entering rooms through 6" wide arrow slits. Sorry, Greg Vaughn, either you or the editors at Paizo screwed up on that one ;). But this isn't one I would get nuts over.
Whew! No kidding, I mean come on...hey, wait a second that's me! Wow, you have really gone back in the archives (18 issues ago)on that one, I just hope you don't check my National Guard records. :-)
Actually, Steve, you have sent me on a wild internet goose chase for this meaningless tangent, but I had to ask myself, "what was I thinking?" Now I'm the first to admit that I'm no herpetologist, so you'll have to bear with me. And to everyone else I'm sure this has absolutely no interest to anyone but me...something a about a box on this thread? So you'll probably want to just skip over this post.
Umm...nice try.
I understand that errors creep in...but
As a rule of thumb I think the appearance of plausibility is in many ways more important then even strict adherence to reality.
In other words if my players call me on this I don't want to be trying to convince them that its actually, really, possible with a lot of squeezing as long as the snake is molting or something. I want them to immediately buy that this is possible so as not to endanger either my own or my players suspension of disbelief.
>> Just like in real life, sometimes things fail. The characters can't open the box. What's the big deal?
You're correct, sometimes players can't do something. It's the WHY of how they can't do it that is an issue. If the WHY falls within the rules of the game, that's understandable.
If the WHY is simply "because the DM says so", in violation of the rules, then that's not so good. It makes the players feel the DM is out to screw them, it's unfair that the players play by the rules and the DM doesn't, and destroys the "reality" of the game.
If you can trust your players around those magic items, then the stats for the magically treated box is a better solution. Or if you don't trust them, the ideas for treasure that is valuable to the merchant but not to the PCs is a good solution as well.
I agree with James position though, sometimes the DM will just have to break the rules. This wasn't one of those cases though.
I'm not really seeing how the DM is breaking the rules here. If the players REALLY WANTED TO they could get into this box. Even if it means holding onto it 'til they're higher level and not following the "real" outcome of the adventure. I guess I don't see any bastardization of the rules going on here.
Also, honestly, a DM "breaking the rules," happens pretty regularly, in my opinion. Sometimes the outcome is just way cooler if you fudge a dice-roll or two. What the players don't see doesn't hurt them, and in this case all they know is that it's too powerful for them. It's not like it says in the adventure "when the PCs try to open the box tell them that you're enacting zero rule and that they can't open it." It gives relatively reasonable, feasible ways for the players to not be able to open the box.
As I said above, no big deal.
This is a great adventure. I plan on running it at a higher level, as soon as I take over Dming duties again. I may have to put it in the middle of a large, saltwater lake, considering where the PCs are when I last left them, but I don't care. . . the kraken attack is too cool.
BTW: I thought this was a great adventure! I plan on running it as the first in a new game. :)
Yeah, I thought the peak of this adventure totally ruled! It's going to create a very awesome session, IMO.
Whew! No kidding, I mean come on...hey, wait a second that's me! Wow, you have really gone back in the archives (18 issues ago)on that one, I just hope you don't check my National Guard records. :-)Actually, Steve, you have sent me on a wild internet goose chase for this meaningless tangent, but I had to ask myself, "what was I thinking?" Now I'm the first to admit that I'm no herpetologist, so you'll have to bear with me. And to everyone else I'm sure this has absolutely no interest to anyone but me...something a about a box on this thread? So you'll probably want to just skip over this post.
But here is what I have discovered. A huge snake can be as short as 16 ft. per table 7-1 on page 314 of the MM. It only gives indications for bipeds and quadrepeds, but I'm going with a nose to tip of tail assumption here having seen nothing to indicate otherwise. So assuming I was being a minimalist (I mean, geez the arrow slit's only 6 inches wide after all!), we're talking about a snake length to girth ratio of 32:1. So is that realistic (at least for fantasy game purposes)?
Well we're talking about a single-lunged viper here rather than a bulky two-lunged constrictor so there's a lot less musculature and organ mass at stake. I couldn't find any sources to give me a good length to girth measurement (everbody talks about length, how come no one cares about girth?), so the best I could come up with was an anatomical drawing of a snake on a Snakes of Australia website. The drawing was 21 inches in length and had a maximum girth of 3/4 inches. So that is a 28:1 ratio right there. In addition we're not talking about a 6-inch-diamter hole here. The arrow slit is six inches wide but 3 feet tall. So that allows for some...
LOL. . . you really did some research on this. Is this attention to detail why you write such excelent adventures, Greg?
Greg, I'm laughing my ass off! You've just improved my mood considerably. Thanks! Check out the squeezing rules and Escape Artist description the next time you have a hankering for shoving snakes big enough to rival the one in Conan the Barbarian through 6" wide arrow slits. My players nearly mutinied on me when I tried to explain how the snakes had gotten into that room!!! But, that's the way my hard line players are on everything. Keeps me on my toes!
I enjoyed Tammeraut's Fate, though. So forgive me for illustrating a point on the topic of this thread at your expense ;)
LOL. . . you really did some research on this. Is this attention to detail why you write such excelent adventures, Greg?Man, I sure hope so. Either that or I'm just a big dork...
Thanks BTW.
You know, Greg - those two aren't mutually exclusive. ;)
Excuse me while I go squeeze through an arrow slit to hide in a corner and suck my thumb.
Better that, than sing in the voice of a lightning-struck dwarf who thinks he's an elven bard.
ASEO out
Greg - I kid because I like. ;)
As to the adventure - as with most of your stuff, I enjoyed it immensely. This struck me as a great adventure for a DM to use to get a party together. It's certainly a step above the cliched, "You meet in a tavern." :) I wish I had a group about to start out, so I could run this. At the very least, though, I found ideas I can use in my own adventures.
Kudos, Greg, for another fun and interesting adventure.
Pardon me while I bury my head in the sand and pretend nobody can see me. :blush:
Yes, of course. Salvage Op. is Mike's, and he deserves the kudos for a very cool low-level adventure.