No Legionary DC?


Kineticist Class

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I noticed that the Melee and Ranged Skill is maxed out at master this I can understand but the class DC being max out also at masters seem like a big problem. Extract Element seems to be the main counter to Elemental resistance and I immunity but with the DC limited to master it’s going to be of very limited use at best. If your attacking a high saving thru vs a creature with immunity to your element you can literally be side lined in the combat trying to get them to fail the save just to do anything. Attacks get the benefit of runes but extract element doesn’t


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This is the trade-off for getting martial progression. It would be bad for balance if the class got both martial proficiencies and full caster proficiencies. Part of why I thought the class should be more of a caster than a martial, but here we are

Liberty's Edge

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Extract Element has its primary effect on any result other than a Critical Success. All you get from worse results is additional damage. That's not nothing, but you're not using the ability to get a few d4s of damage in.

Liberty's Edge

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Why ANY full Class doesn't get Legendary in their own Class DC as well as at LEAST their primary thing they're entirely focused around doing based on their chassis is... beyond me, but that's a confusion point that I've held since the CRB Playtest and I haven't yet heard a convincing answer as to why it would be impossible to balance around letting each Class at LEAST invest Class Feats to bring their DC or schtick up to Legendary that I bought...

/shrug


Except the only real time they use DC is for extract element which is entirely a way to bypass rest and immunity. Seems like it forces you to play a dual element


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tytalan wrote:

Except the only real time they use DC is for extract element which is entirely a way to bypass rest and immunity. Seems like it forces you to play a dual element

There are a lot of feats and at least 2 features that use the Class DC.

Scarab Sages

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Gaulin wrote:
This is the trade-off for getting martial progression. It would be bad for balance if the class got both martial proficiencies and full caster proficiencies. Part of why I thought the class should be more of a caster than a martial, but here we are

they don't really have martial proficiencies, it's more like warpriest proficiencies.


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Themetricsystem wrote:

Why ANY full Class doesn't get Legendary in their own Class DC as well as at LEAST their primary thing they're entirely focused around doing based on their chassis is... beyond me, but that's a confusion point that I've held since the CRB Playtest and I haven't yet heard a convincing answer as to why it would be impossible to balance around letting each Class at LEAST invest Class Feats to bring their DC or schtick up to Legendary that I bought...

/shrug

No your not doing it for damage directly but without legionary proficiency at higher levels you opponents are going to critical success on the save with the lower DC and if that creature is resistant or immune to your element your sidelined in the combat. Since this is a essential ability and almost the only ability that uses the class DC it seems to be a major problem. I’m running AoA and a fire Kineticist would be useless half the time because of this


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Angel Hunter D wrote:
Gaulin wrote:
This is the trade-off for getting martial progression. It would be bad for balance if the class got both martial proficiencies and full caster proficiencies. Part of why I thought the class should be more of a caster than a martial, but here we are
they don't really have martial proficiencies, it's more like warpriest proficiencies.

Warpriest caps at Expert for attack and defense. This caps at Master with the rest of the martials.


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On one hand, it would be weird if the Kineticist is better at getting targets to fail their saves than literally every caster. But on the other hand, it feels weird that legendary proficiency in class DC is a thing that's possible but no one ever gets it.

Since the Kineticist does not have an "pure power"analogue to "extra 10th level spell slot" at 20th level, I wonder if "legendary class DC" as a 20th level feat would work or if this is a place Burn could work its way back.


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Also almost every ability that requires a save has the Overflow tag. So I extract element if I succeed I can now attack a opponent that’s resistance or immune but if the ability I use has the overflow tag so if they make their save or not I still have to attempt a extract element again to attack them. And almost all the abilities I’ve seen to do extra damage or a effect requires a save

I suppose they consider them to be like the War Priest but they are already doing less damage with a lot less support abilities to make up for it.

Liberty's Edge

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tytalan wrote:
No your not doing it for damage directly but without legionary proficiency at higher levels you opponents are going to critical success on the save with the lower DC and if that creature is resistant or immune to your element your sidelined in the combat. Since this is a essential ability and almost the only ability that uses the class DC it seems to be a major problem. I’m running AoA and a fire Kineticist would be useless half the time because of this

Well, specializing in fire and fire only in an AP that puts you up against a lot of things with resistance or immunity to fire is definitely playing on hard mode, but fortunately you've got Extract Element, which forces an enemy to Critically Succeed if they don't want those defenses to be ignored or trivialized. The fact that you're also placing a powerful debuff on them and gaining resistance to their attacks is a nice bonus. Hard to think of many other abilities that give you anything half as nice even if the target Succeeds on their save.


the more I look at it the more I think they need to break it apart like the cleric with the martial version getting getting master in armor and strikes but only expert in DC and the Effect version getting only Expert in armor and strikes but legionary in class DCs


Losonti wrote:
tytalan wrote:
No your not doing it for damage directly but without legionary proficiency at higher levels you opponents are going to critical success on the save with the lower DC and if that creature is resistant or immune to your element your sidelined in the combat. Since this is a essential ability and almost the only ability that uses the class DC it seems to be a major problem. I’m running AoA and a fire Kineticist would be useless half the time because of this
Well, specializing in fire and fire only in an AP that puts you up against a lot of things with resistance or immunity to fire is definitely playing on hard mode, but fortunately you've got Extract Element, which forces an enemy to Critically Succeed if they don't want those defenses to be ignored or trivialized. The fact that you're also placing a powerful debuff on them and gaining resistance to their attacks is a nice bonus. Hard to think of many other abilities that give you anything half as nice even if the target Succeeds on their save.

It could be any campaign. You have no ideal going into the campaign most of the time and in HB it could be actually worse. As it is now it almost forces the PC to go dual element especially if they add dual element feats in the final version


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Angel Hunter D wrote:
Gaulin wrote:
This is the trade-off for getting martial progression. It would be bad for balance if the class got both martial proficiencies and full caster proficiencies. Part of why I thought the class should be more of a caster than a martial, but here we are
they don't really have martial proficiencies, it's more like warpriest proficiencies.

Agreed, compared to the Magus, Rogue, and Swashbuckler, they get expert in their weapons 2 levels after the listed classes. Strangely, they get mastery at the same time as the listed classes.


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I think it would be interesting to have Kineticists be the class to be Legendary in class dcs. It seems that they have a lot more abilities focusing on class dcs than most other classes. Also I think it works flavor wise as the kineticist is described as working to control and master their elemental power within themselves.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
DiskJokky wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
Gaulin wrote:
This is the trade-off for getting martial progression. It would be bad for balance if the class got both martial proficiencies and full caster proficiencies. Part of why I thought the class should be more of a caster than a martial, but here we are
they don't really have martial proficiencies, it's more like warpriest proficiencies.
Agreed, compared to the Magus, Rogue, and Swashbuckler, they get expert in their weapons 2 levels after the listed classes. Strangely, they get mastery at the same time as the listed classes.

It’s only that level 5 thing that’s different. Otherwise they’re pretty standard martial, even get weapon specialization and greater specialization at the right levels.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

On one hand, it would be weird if the Kineticist is better at getting targets to fail their saves than literally every caster. But on the other hand, it feels weird that legendary proficiency in class DC is a thing that's possible but no one ever gets it.

Since the Kineticist does not have an "pure power"analogue to "extra 10th level spell slot" at 20th level, I wonder if "legendary class DC" as a 20th level feat would work or if this is a place Burn could work its way back.

I'm not sure how kineticists having legendary proficiency would make their DCs higher than casters, who also get legendary proficiency.

It's not like weapon potency runes affect that or anything.

Anyway, it seems a bit silly to give kineticists all these class dc-using abilities if they're just going to become impotent at higher levels because they stop having a passable DC to use them with.


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Thaumaturge gets away with having Master in class DC because Cursed Effigy exists, if Legendary is off the table then something like that for the Kineticist would be fine.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Goodham wrote:
Anyway, it seems a bit silly to give kineticists all these class dc-using abilities if they're just going to become impotent at higher levels because they stop having a passable DC to use them with.

I mean, just to be clear, it's 6 levels that they're behind.

Now on the one hand, that's an argument for improving class DC imo because there's nothing about those specific levels that warrants them being worse and it's another example of mismatched proficiency scaling doing nothing good for the game. There's no real compelling reason every class isn't legendary in their own DC. It's just something Paizo did and now we're kinda stuck with it.

But it also seems a little extreme to call their abilities impotent because their DCs are slightly worse for 6 of 20 levels. Even at those levels the majority of die rolls will not be any different.


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Losonti wrote:
fortunately you've got Extract Element, which forces an enemy to Critically Succeed if they don't want those defenses to be ignored or trivialized

Only enemies with that element trait or composed of this element. Devils aren't any of that for example.

Silver Crusade

Right now the class has tools like Elemental Weapon, but it might just be cleaner for the class to let players chose if they want to focus more on their class DC or attack bonus (not unlike a warpriest and the other kind of cleric).


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Right now the class has tools like Elemental Weapon, but it might just be cleaner for the class to let players chose if they want to focus more on their class DC or attack bonus (not unlike a warpriest and the other kind of cleric).

Maybe on paper it makes sense.

Issue with warpriest is I view it as a flawed subclass and would never play it beyond a certain relatively early level.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Right now the class has tools like Elemental Weapon, but it might just be cleaner for the class to let players chose if they want to focus more on their class DC or attack bonus (not unlike a warpriest and the other kind of cleric).

Maybe on paper it makes sense.

Issue with warpriest is I view it as a flawed subclass and would never play it beyond a certain relatively early level.

Agreed

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I honestly think legendary DC is absolutely needed here while maintaining mastery in normal kinetic blast attacks.


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Verzen wrote:
I honestly think legendary DC is absolutely needed here while maintaining mastery in normal kinetic blast attacks.

I seriously doubt this will happen as it straight up breaks 2e design philosophy.


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Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
I honestly think legendary DC is absolutely needed here while maintaining mastery in normal kinetic blast attacks.

I seriously doubt this will happen as it straight up breaks 2e design philosophy.

How? Which design philosophy is getting broken? Full casters get legendary DCs, but martials don't? Because if that's the case, the Kine is in this weird middle zone like Magus where it's not quite one or the other, and I think if ANY class that isn't a full caster should get Legendary Class DC Proficiency, it's the gosh darn Kineticist! Like... What other class does it make sense on?


They didn't give it to the inventor ( they are both martial combatants unable to get STR/DEX 18 by the beginning of the game ), so I doubt they will give it to the kineticist either.

Plus, even with legendary DC it would be either STR/DEX apex or CON Apex, if we want to compare them to a spellcaster, resulting into:

1) -2 hit ( CON APEX )

or

2) -1 hit and -1 DC ( STR/DEX APEX )

But considering any other martial class has master, giving legendary to just the kineticist may be kinda broken.


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Kinda like Fighter?

I agree that Kineticist should probably get Legendary. A ton of their feats are based on it, and on first read they don't do amazing damage to begin with.


nick1wasd wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:
I honestly think legendary DC is absolutely needed here while maintaining mastery in normal kinetic blast attacks.

I seriously doubt this will happen as it straight up breaks 2e design philosophy.

How? Which design philosophy is getting broken? Full casters get legendary DCs, but martials don't? Because if that's the case, the Kine is in this weird middle zone like Magus where it's not quite one or the other, and I think if ANY class that isn't a full caster should get Legendary Class DC Proficiency, it's the gosh darn Kineticist! Like... What other class does it make sense on?

Magus is absolutely a full martial.

Envoy's Alliance

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Maybe a class ability or Feature that gives the choice to the player "You gain Either Legendary in unarmed attacks or Legendary in Class DC. Which ever one you choose, no matter what features you take, you cannot increase the other to Legendary"


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I wouldn't say Legendary DC is impossible but the problem is on a martial it would take up a huge amount of the class value budget, that's almost ten percent of the class budget per the BCS. To get Legendary Class DC, they'd have to lose something(s) pretty big. Same way you'll never see Legendary casting and Master Attacks together, there's just not room in the budget for both without taking away spell slots or save progression or unique class features and leaving a class with either very few slots or the worst save proficiencies or almost no unique features. So either a weak class overall or a bland bag if proficiencies. Just look at Magus, in order to get Master attacks and defense, it had to give up like 80+ percent of spell slots AND legendary casting.


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Zoken44 wrote:
Maybe a class ability or Feature that gives the choice to the player "You gain Either Legendary in unarmed attacks or Legendary in Class DC. Which ever one you choose, no matter what features you take, you cannot increase the other to Legendary"

You mean master in unarmed or legendary in class DC?


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I feel like it should be fine. There's two classes that have Legendary in attacks and still have Master in class DC. Clearly it's possible to have a legendary and a master.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Lazarus Dark wrote:
I wouldn't say Legendary DC is impossible but the problem is on a martial it would take up a huge amount of the class value budget

That doesn't make a lot of sense mathematically. Right now, the difference between a kineticist's current class DC and caster progression is 6 levels out of 20.

The reality is that a significant majority of the time, the difference in their DC is actually completely irrelevant. At level 5, you have the same DC as a caster. At level 10, you have the same DC as a caster. At level 7 and 8 and 15 and 16 and 19 and 20, your DC is one tier behind, which still only matters for 4 die values out of 20.

In other words, 30% of the time, 20% of the time, your proficiency will make your abilities worse. Your proficiency tier is relevant 6% of the time.

If you're playing a campaign that doesn't even go to 20 like Abomination Vaults, most Society stuff, or typical homegames which rarely seem to last that long, it's going to be even less often than that.

I know the kneejerk reaction is to treat these as a really big deal, but it's hard to call something the lynchpin of balance when what we're talking something that's relevant for such a tiny strip of actually relevant gameplay. If you're level 8 and the enemy rolls a 5 it might suck... but if they rolled a 7 it wouldn't matter and if you were level 9 it wouldn't matter.

It's clearly not something that the entire class is going to live or die on either way.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Lazarus Dark wrote:
that's almost ten percent of the class budget per the BCS.

Per the BCS?

What is that?


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Squiggit wrote:
Lazarus Dark wrote:
I wouldn't say Legendary DC is impossible but the problem is on a martial it would take up a huge amount of the class value budget

That doesn't make a lot of sense mathematically. Right now, the difference between a kineticist's current class DC and caster progression is 6 levels out of 20.

The reality is that a significant majority of the time, the difference in their DC is actually completely irrelevant. At level 5, you have the same DC as a caster. At level 10, you have the same DC as a caster. At level 7 and 8 and 15 and 16 and 19 and 20, your DC is one tier behind, which still only matters for 4 die values out of 20.

In other words, 30% of the time, 20% of the time, your proficiency will make your abilities worse. Your proficiency tier is relevant 6% of the time.

If you're playing a campaign that doesn't even go to 20 like Abomination Vaults, most Society stuff, or typical homegames which rarely seem to last that long, it's going to be even less often than that.

I know the kneejerk reaction is to treat these as a really big deal, but it's hard to call something the lynchpin of balance when what we're talking something that's relevant for such a tiny strip of actually relevant gameplay. If you're level 8 and the enemy rolls a 5 it might suck... but if they rolled a 7 it wouldn't matter and if you were level 9 it wouldn't matter.

It's clearly not something that the entire class is going to live or die on either way.

Actually it is a big deal. If you go universal gate not so much but dual and single gate it is a big deal especially if you building a blaster instead of a hitter. The blaster build already has 2 major disadvantages if you don’t include the weak DC. 1) their damage is low and stoke element which only adds 2 or 4 to the damage has a action tax. 2) every AOE attack also has a built in action tax in the form of overwhelm. So 5 actions to do a AOE with +4 to damage vs 1 action to do a strike with 4+ damage bonus plus runes added to it. This is a major issue


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Lazarus Dark wrote:
that's almost ten percent of the class budget per the BCS.

Per the BCS?

What is that?

https://www.reddit.com/r/OGL_BCS/comments/uzbkht/balanced_core_system_bcs_1 0_release_post_reverse/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

I reverse engineered the class system and released it to the community a couple months ago.


Lazarus Dark wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Lazarus Dark wrote:
that's almost ten percent of the class budget per the BCS.

Per the BCS?

What is that?

https://www.reddit.com/r/OGL_BCS/comments/uzbkht/balanced_core_system_bcs_1 0_release_post_reverse/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

I reverse engineered the class system and released it to the community a couple months ago.

So you guessed at the class design system and think you have if right. What you have is a guess it might be a educated guess but it’s still a guess. Trying to say you are right is misleading


tytalan wrote:
1) their damage is low and stoke element which only adds 2 or 4 to the damage has a action tax. 2) every AOE attack also has a built in action tax in the form of overwhelm. So 5 actions to do a AOE with +4 to damage vs 1 action to do a strike with 4+ damage bonus plus...

Did you miss that Stoke Element scales with level?


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RexAliquid wrote:
tytalan wrote:
1) their damage is low and stoke element which only adds 2 or 4 to the damage has a action tax. 2) every AOE attack also has a built in action tax in the form of overwhelm. So 5 actions to do a AOE with +4 to damage vs 1 action to do a strike with 4+ damage bonus plus...
Did you miss that Stoke Element scales with level?

So we pay a feat tax and a action tax causing our DC attack to take 4 action for a max of +10 to damage and we can’t do it back to back since Stoke Element is the last impulse you can do for a turn and you have to have elements gathered first. Turn one gather element, elemental blast which you have a good chance of missing, Stoke element. Turn two AOE which you will probably only do half damage with, gather element, turn three two more attempts of elemental blast, stoke element, turn four repeat turn two.

And since it is impossible to have a starting strength or dexterity of 18 you behind the ball there.


A consequence to legendary DC would be a fighter syndrome in different flavor.

Fighter can take almost any martial shtick and make it better, barring hard limits on dice or static damage. Simply by virtue of their proficiency.

If a class were to gain legendary class DC progression they would experience the same privilege but in a different way.

Maybe this is fine. Or maybe they didn't want to make another fighter scenario. I don't know.


Stoke Element currently is just an additional action that Dedicated Gate chars that's buy it's feat can use to use as 3º action to improve next attack damage. IMO it's only useful for full focused Elemental Blast chars once that 3º MAP attack usually has a lot hit chance. But it's no so useful if you plan to use 3-actions Overflow Impulses. Usually in that's cases is better to just do 2 Impulse Attacks in next round.


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Martialmasters wrote:

A consequence to legendary DC would be a fighter syndrome in different flavor.

Fighter can take almost any martial shtick and make it better, barring hard limits on dice or static damage. Simply by virtue of their proficiency.

If a class were to gain legendary class DC progression they would experience the same privilege but in a different way.

Maybe this is fine. Or maybe they didn't want to make another fighter scenario. I don't know.

How many things scale with class DC that you can grab via feats? Off the top of my head there's like...Dragons Rage Breath.


Martialmasters wrote:

A consequence to legendary DC would be a fighter syndrome in different flavor.

Fighter can take almost any martial shtick and make it better, barring hard limits on dice or static damage. Simply by virtue of their proficiency.

If a class were to gain legendary class DC progression they would experience the same privilege but in a different way.

Maybe this is fine. Or maybe they didn't want to make another fighter scenario. I don't know.

Not exactly. Fighter Legendary Attack Proficiency is better than a Legendary DC due the runes Item bonus.

Legendary DC like casters usually only compensate the Resilient runes but still 1 point bellow (but for other side most opponents and monsters doesn't have an Evasion/Juggernaut/Resolve abilities to prevent the half-damage so this point bellow usually doesn't matter that much) and just like happens to AC the monsters saves is equivalent to resilient armored chars.

In the end the Legendary DC just give the casters a closer hit rate of a Martial with +3 atk runes.

But I don't believe that Paizo will give Legendary class DC to Kineticist for the same reason that it didn't give it to wavecasters. Because they already have a martial "Strike" that can benefit from runes.


Guntermench wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
If a class were to gain legendary class DC progression they would experience the same privilege but in a different way.
How many things scale with class DC that you can grab via feats? Off the top of my head there's like...Dragons Rage Breath.

Why do you think that class DCs aren't separated by classes?

You become trained in barbarian class DC.
You become trained in ranger class DC.
You become trained in alchemist class DC.
You become trained in fighter class DC.
And so on.
No, even if people would find some lawyery thing to state that class DCs are universal I don't see it as RAI.
"A class DC sets the difficulty for certain abilities granted by your character’s class."
And nothing in Archetype sections.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
YuriP wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:

A consequence to legendary DC would be a fighter syndrome in different flavor.

Fighter can take almost any martial shtick and make it better, barring hard limits on dice or static damage. Simply by virtue of their proficiency.

If a class were to gain legendary class DC progression they would experience the same privilege but in a different way.

Maybe this is fine. Or maybe they didn't want to make another fighter scenario. I don't know.

Not exactly. Fighter Legendary Attack Proficiency is better than a Legendary DC due the runes Item bonus.

Legendary DC like casters usually only compensate the Resilient runes but still 1 point bellow (but for other side most opponents and monsters doesn't have an Evasion/Juggernaut/Resolve abilities to prevent the half-damage so this point bellow usually doesn't matter that much) and just like happens to AC the monsters saves is equivalent to resilient armored chars.

In the end the Legendary DC just give the casters a closer hit rate of a Martial with +3 atk runes.

But I don't believe that Paizo will give Legendary class DC to Kineticist for the same reason that it didn't give it to wavecasters. Because they already have a martial "Strike" that can benefit from runes.

I honestly hope they get rid of that martial strike and focus more on the interesting abilities.


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One thing people need to understand is: Legendary Attacks is being above the curve. Legendary DC is not. Sure, currently all Class DCs only go to Master, but the word before the DC being changed from "Spell" to "Class" doesn't suddenly change the entire balance. Enemy AC is balanced around Master attacks, and Fighter is above that baseline. Enemy saves, however, are balanced around Legendary DCs, because every single spellcasting class gets those, and DCs do not have item bonuses. Heck, even with those Legendary DCs, the odds of enemies failing saves against your spells are not that great.


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People ask for that in every playtest, like the Summoner, Magus and Inventor one.

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