swirler's page

thank you

Unfortunately I cannot afford to keep getting Pathfinder right now. I am hoping to eventually be able to afford it again but for now I must stop.

Thank You

ah man, I JUST found this thread, sounds awesome
I've been wanting to do something like this forever!

I'd suggest the unisytem that Eden studios puts out, you have Buffy tVS, Angel, Army of Darkness, the ones I personally own and also AFMBE, and Terra Primate but I've never played those two.

I would also suggest WOD, and try a straight humans game, that can be a blast.

And I'm saying that a system DOES exist. It's the DM. It's just as consistent as stats. If you don't write things down, yeah you're going to forget them, but that goes for stats as well as DM fiat.

The problem with that is with some players. One person in my group is an economics guy. He likes numbers and he likes balances. He can't stand it when things do not add up. He is also very anti-handwave and fiat. The players and the GM should have the same rules, exactly." is kind of the vibe I get from him. He also feels genuine animosity towards GM screens and hates rolling behind them. He is also not the craziest person in the group. ;)

These are why we needs at least a token set of rules for that kind of stuff. Also let's say someone wants to be close to an npc, a non adventurer type. Say JoJo the barbarian (oops, no barbarians) JoJo the nomadic Fighter wants to woo the barmaid and even marry her. Sometimes the players might feel cheated if she doesn't get a sheet of her own.

Well, all together, and the huge amount of product that was all associated, the total came out to something like over 20 million books sold from the games division. Granted, this was a LOT of material, a goodling number of years, and during the height of the RPG industry - where we are nowhere near approaching.

Remember, that era ALSO had AD&D in most bookstores, but also in toy stores as well as Sears, Targets, Ayr*Ways, and the like. There was no Warcraft, no Magic, no Guild Wars, and the internet was were college professors went to hash out Star Trek. The d20 was the king, baby.. followed by two d10s that you made percentiles with.

Very different age. I won't argue that d20 wasn't overall successful, but I couldn't BEGIN to compare it to the 1980s for AD&D 2nd as anywhere near equivolent. It would be foolish to do so.

do you think that had anything to do with the approach of TSR compared to how Hasbro runs Wotc? Sure TSR became this rotting carcass by the end, but it used to be a might beast. they had diversity in products and genres. Sure not everything was golden but there was alot of good stuff. Marvel Super hero's is still one of the better goes at a supers game.

Per-encounter martial encounters make sense from the standpoint of "it's difficult to pull the same trick twice" during lethal melee combat. In my experience, you can only get away with a trick once per fight before it catches on.

that is kind of how I've made it make sense in my mind also.

crosswiredmind wrote:

Vance, vance, vance - so even when presented with first hand experience of what it is like to run an FLGS you seem dead set on your own opinion.

Because, in all honesty, I believe you would say and do anything to defend WotC's position, no matter how off-the-way it may be, up to and including lying, cheating, and stealing.

Yep - there is a glut of product on the market. One successful local chain owner calls it the smell of death. For the purposes of competitive research he travels to local shops in and around the Philadelphia area. He sees a whole lot of 3.0 and 3.5 OGL products clogging up shelves and bloating inventories. He said that one shop in NJ was selling 3e books for $1 per pound.

The trouble is that the OGL was far too open and the GSL is far too closed. The overreaction of WotC has understandable motivating factors but their solution has gone too far.

tadkil wrote:

I think it hurts the consumer.

Absolutely. I think we will see a big change in the GSL during the next year as the publishers react and WotC catches flack for not supporting the community it created with the OGL.

Just thought I'd repost these for clarity. I do not always agree with CWM and I'm not saying whether I do or not now, but what you had said Vance does not jive with what CWM said previously.

First, d20 Sales were LESS than 2nd edition.

which version of 2nd edition? Technically 3rd ed isn't the third. There were several revamps, and does first edition mean the original white box? or is that red box basic, or is 2nd ed just AD&D in general? That's all been very sketchy

Personally I'd like the GSL so-called "loosened" so publishers can produce dual-stat materials and thus satisfying everyone's tastes.

amen

Got Some Lemons?
Grab Some Licorice?
Go Shoot Lenny?
Go Shoot Lawyers?
God-awful Stinky Limburger?

Um, those aren't magazines. I get magazines at newsstands and coffee shops. They look like pdf's to me...</snark>

I agree but it's the closest thing we have now, isn't it?

I suppose the issue is that you said the poster's statement "irks" you - which implied you actively found it offensive or annoying. The thing is, while you have may have had success in building a fighter with more options, the default fighter really was just "hit, repeat until dead." Clearly this poster was dissatisfied about that, and is excited the default is now more interesting - is now the fighter you seem to have enjoyed in your own gaming.

Is it really that offensive that he looks forward to easily gaining the same enjoyment from the game that you have experienced?

it's that it has been said by alot of people w/o them explaining why they think that. it's kind of like the people who say "4E sucks" or "this sucks" or "that sucks" w/o giving examples of why, or how. That is the part that irks me about it. It's like it's become some kind of mantra, kind of like if you want a crowd on your side anywhere just stamp and chant "USA USA!!" over and over w/o actually caring about it.

I think it is a reasonable thing for the poster to have been excited about - the chance for his fighter to really be a hero, and have an interesting array of options before him in every combat.

and my point was, I always have. Then again I didnt just "hit, repeat until dead"

One of the first responses on that page irks me. I've never understood the "there's nothing for the fighter to do" mentality. I have never ever ever felt that way about any character I've played in D&D in any edition. Sure there are times when your normal plans of attack don't work, so you have to rethink things and find something that will. As much as I hate buzzwords and catchphrases that use them, "Think Outside the Box" people!!!

plus side
free mags until its up
heh

to a certain degree yeah
I've been reading more and it is making more sense and I can see the potential. Unfortunately it's still pretty much just me reading/learning it and then teaching everyone else here to play. No one else is interested in trying to learn on their own or cooperatively with me. So I have decided to just learn as I can and if I can find online games to try out in I will. I'm not going to rush our group into it.
Kinda sucks but it's less stressful that way.

the help I've gotten here has really, well, helped me though.
Thanks all

Ravenloft is probably my favorite Setting, but I just don't think that 4e would do it justice. It just doesn't have the right feel to it.

After what some others have mentioned here I'm wondering if the problem would not be the system but in the mindset of the people who would write it. I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just thinking that the current people working at wotc have a different goal in mind than what "Ravenloft" is.

try and layer Gothic Horror on top of Cinematic RPGing and go with something thats more 'Gothic Horror with a big special effects budget' feel to it.

Like if "Dark Shadows" had the production budget for LOTR?

Chris?
am I not seeing some posts?

In all fairness, I am a fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants GM so making things up on the fly is easier for me. Also, I am more interested in the story than rules minutia.

That describes me perfectly. I'm all about fast and loose, "fun over perfection" playing.

swirler wrote:

not letting me on even though I'm logged in

You don't need to log in, ever--no one does.

Leave the fields blank and just click the Log In button.

Having to log in is a sham.

doesn't work, it says gleemax cant find your account, the same thing it says when I use my log in

The first two games my group played were slow. I'll be totally upfront in that combat took forever. I mean, we'd have one combat and it'd be 2+ hours. Sure there were big fights, but we were 1st level!

But then, something happened. One player left, but I don't really think she was the problem. Did everyone suddenly grok the rules? I'm not sure.

But last night, we went through 3 combats; HUGE, giant, sprawling, drag out, knock down brawls, all in a single night. Maybe an hour for each combat, as a guess (didn't notice the time, really).

4E definitely is starting to move fast for us. :)

Man I envy that, the chance to get in and really make it work. And to get to keep going until it makes sense.

The resolution mechanics are streamlined. That has taken quite a bit of the complexity out of the game. You are correct that there are now seemingly more variable to track but I don't think that is the case.

I think it is a different mode of play and once players and GMs begin to adjust to it then it will play quicker and smoother.

So I guess what i am saying is that there is actually less to track but we need to adjust to tracking it.

maybe

grrr

It's very hard to get a hold of it

Just what the topic says. It seems to me the more I read, that 4e is way more complicated than any other version. There is more to constantly keep track of, how many times you do this or that, and all the little piddly bonuses that may or may not effect things. Whether or not they stack and how and so forth and so on. Sure some of these things occurred before, but not to this degree, not to the point that everyone had to do it all the time. Being basically forced to use miniatures also complicates (IE slows down) things.

How is this making things simpler?

I am still trying to see what others are seeing in the system but I'm not seeing it. The WotC site being defective and not letting me on even though I'm logged in is definitly not helping, but I have been mulling this topic over in my head aslong as I've been hearing about powers and how the game was to work and I just finally gave in and asked.

again I ask

How is this making things simpler?

mine didn't work either. I know there were problems before but since Gleemax took over...
ugg
I should not have to make a new account
this is lame

vance wrote:

They... can't... do the GSL can they? The GSL forbids a 'relicense' arrangement, and Earthdawn is owned by Microsoft-FASA, last I knew...

Hi,

The Earthdawn property is owned by FASA Corporation. And yes RedBrick can do this (which is why we are).

Kind regards,

JAMES FLOWERS
Managing Director, RedBrick Limited,
AUCKLAND, New Zealand, http://www.redbrick.co.nz

okay but this brings up an interesting potential problem dealing with WOTC claiming ownership of anything under GSL or however it was worded, It seems like licensed stuff is kinda dangerous in that regard.

see thats what I'm talking about, making the game work w/o having to change things. Okay some things will most likely be changed, but only in the spirit of the earlier incarnations of Ravenloft. Like how some spells just didn't work or some powers changed. How some gave you dark powers checks.

I think one of the main hurdles is getting past the "combat is the first answer to any question" idea.

Jeremy MacDonald wrote:

Oh No! I've got Newbs! Whatever Shall I Do?

[threadjack] I sped-read this as 'Oh No! I've got Bewbs! Whatever Shall I Do?'

The answer seems to be the same for either version. Play with them. [/threadjack]

heh

okay, here's a question then. What about 4E makes it not work for horror?
How would you make it work? Let's see if we can figure some ideas out. The first things I'm sure alot of people would say would be either A: Pump up the Baddies, or B: Nerf The Goodies. Is that the only way? Does this really help? I would like to believe there might be other ways around this problem.

Anyone heard any news on this front? Next to homemade and some of Greyhawk, Ravenloft is my favorite world easy. Has anyone heard any news abotu what's to be done with the Demiplane of Dread?

Of course I'm looking across the room at my "Hollow world" Box set and thinking that might be interesting to do in 4e (not that that setting has been touched by anyone official in years).

I started making one from the wotc one from the website but had to stop. I felt like the task was eating my brain.
heh
I also figured/hoped someone more used to doing it was going to have it done long before I would.

I would suggest, if you have the time, pregen several different characters so that they have a pool to choose from. I would also suggest having a human of each class, just in case some of them don't feel up to playing other races. In my experience there are some people who only play humans.

EDIT: Under Theivery it does say your DM might decide certain things can't be done unless trained. I'd rule that disabling traps and picking locks (and any other thing that might come up that requires implements) needs training to use.

I would think so also.

It just seems expensive to have to burn a feat for every skill. Skills IMHO help with character diversity.

So... unless you burn feats to get them, you never gain any more skills after first level? Or am I missing the part that says you get more?

well we know alot of rules are "in other books, coming soon"
I'm sure something akin to DMG 2 will be down the pike for more stuff that may address some of this.
yeah I know, some stuff we would rather have "NOW".

It is almost like more of that videogame feel
we pay and pay and the game gets patched and added on to as we play

"what? Where'd my Creature Handler class go? My Rancor! NOOOOOO!!!!!"

;)

swirler wrote:

I think they were referring to your comparison of npcs to the party. Saying someone is or is not a challenge does not have to mean they have to be an opponent, it's just an ability comparison.

I never MADE a comparison to the party.. nor am I thinking of such a thing. I'm just saying that there are occaisions that some DMs would want, even need, statistics on NPCs that aren't just combat-monsters. 4E doesn't currently allow this in the RAW.

i had thought it was referring tot he overall "noone is special" argument.

Side note, two people I know who loved tome of battle because it "made them awesome" hate 4e

Antioch wrote:

Very rarely I could see an adventure have a NPC that had both NPC class levels and be a challenge to the party.

Who said anything about making them opponents? Can you not envision a scenario where NPCs may be in a 'do or die' situation during the course of a normal campaign, yet they're NOT the opponents?

I think they were referring to your comparison of npcs to the party. Saying someone is or is not a challenge does not have to mean they have to be an opponent, it's just an ability comparison.

one of the things I'm seeing, let's call it a trend, in 4E is the leaving off of things you may not need rules for, or pairing down. Granted while making combat 'simpler and more streamlined' they have also managed to make it seem more complicated and give you more things to keep track of, at least IMHO. I have said on many occasions though I haven't yet gotten a good reign on the rules and assume it's just because I haven't gotten them in here the right way yet. *taps head*

Okay I rambled, sorry.
what I was trying to say is, the game was revamped to mostly just handle combat and things you need checks for. It reminds me of a complaint one of my friends in my group has about some games, how the way the rules are set up you can do weird things but if you rolled to tie your shoes you would fail alot of the time. I looked at him, paused then said "why the hell are you having to roll to tie your shoes, is there a question about that ability? Are you being shot at while you do it? have your hands been removed?" I think atleast for most non combat things games are trying to follow the K.I.S.S. strategy (Keep It Simple, Stupid) I think the rules for npcs are just for exceptional npcs that are needed for a specific reason. That doesn't meant there aren't others who are just normal, who can't do "powers". One can argue about the things in the monster manual, but I would just have to point at the name of the book. It's the 'monster manual', not the 'average schlub manual'.

why hate gnomes?
gnomes are cool, and useful. If you don't like gnomes then you've just never seen them used properly.

so my question is this,

How long will it be before someone sits down, and nails down all the ways you can write stuff for 4th w/o "officially writing for 4th" and the things you have to avoid in your work and then makes an FAQ site for it?

people are funny that way.

Nah, the names need to remain the same. It's not as if you can't change it in your own games, but it would play merry hell with 3.5 material. "Why doesn't this kobold warrior have his warrior bonus feats?" "That's a 3.5 warrior, which is an NPC class there."

I personally don't like barbarian, either. Berserker would be better I think, as barbarian is more a culture / lifestyle. You have barbarian barbarians, but also barbarian clerics or barbarian commoners. On the other hand, you can have civilised barbarians. All quite weird. But since everything else would cause too much trouble with former material, all because of a single word, I vote for it to stay.

/nod

Since I had accidentally hi-jacked that other thread I though I should make this one to ask this question in.

Anyone have any games open or planning to start any 4E games? I'd love to get in on one just to get a better feel for the rules. I learn by doing more than reading. I'm figuring playing it some should help me get a grip on it.

okay I will
I'm sure I had some but yeah I need to write them down. brain like a sieve.
anyone planning on doing some games online, like over IMs or chats?

edit; Hmm i started a new thread asking that but the forums ate it
bye bye little thread

If you're not getting the PHB (as in, muddling with it), it may do a better job of introducing some of the concepts, yes. Not sure it's worth it for the tutorial, since it's fixed characters and all that, but it may ease some of the basics.

yeah for some reason this ones not sticking in my head

vance wrote:

swirler wrote:

I havent purchased that module yet.

is it recommended?

Really hard to recommend if you've already got the PHB and all that. The module itself is passable, but really just a series of map-based encounters. (First edition meets Hero Quest). Much of the module's price tag and worth come from the 'preview rules' included.

I concur with vance here. I thought the module was kinda worth its price when it was a preview taste of the new ruleset, but it doesn't have a whole lot going for it other than that preview. It's a by-the-numbers tour of a string of combat challenges. I do find that the three double-sided maps are nice, but not nice enough to carry the module as a whole.

The physical production quality is the lowest I have ever seen (with the exception of some 1980s era third party D&D stuff). The paper is thinner than magazine paper and the ink sticks to fingers, producing fingermarks and smudges on the paper seconds after handling them.

hmm

I miss having someone around who's "played it before" to walk through games

KotS is Keep on the Shadowfell, the First 4e Adventure form Wizards. (Just stating because of your question mark to cover the bases)

The link. Cheap Plastic mini bases make this easy to move around.. or even cardboard.

Keep comes with 4 battle maps relevant to the adventure as well.

ah very cool

I do not have an extensive mini collection and I find 4e works well with paper tokens. I live in a town house with a 4 person table. Its not too cramped with 6 people playing, when we setup a card table for additonal space.

Kots has some paper tokens put out for it by Fiery Dragon. Wonderful stuff

Kots? Fiery Dragon? do you have a link?

Part of my thing too is, I mean I like miniatures, but I don't care about extensive use of them. I kind of see the whole battlemat thing as often being a chore and I'm all for tactics, but I don't understand the need for exact measurements all the time.