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Eadiebot lowers her helm's visor and salutes the pathfinders.

"I'll pin the golem so it can't get to the squishies! And may the ghost of Aunt Alix tan my hide if it overruns me!"

Adamantine falchion in her elongated hands, Eadie joins the battle:

power attack vs golem, furious focus, haste: 1d20 + 25 + 1 ⇒ (4) + 25 + 1 = 30adamantine good slashing damage: 2d4 + 26 + 12 ⇒ (1, 1) + 26 + 12 = 40

Eadie's AC is currently 36 and she has Displacement.

I'll suggest Eadie's buffs too - in case she's not able to post yet.

Eadie will get a Magic Vestment and a Shield of Faith from Quenly, which together will improve her AC to 31. She'll use an Oil of Bless Weapon on her adamantine falchion.

GM, Eadie carries a Clockwork Key which means that Golems (all Constructs actually) won't target her unless she's threatening them or they are directly commanded to do so. She can also expend the Key by striking a golem with it to have a chance to paralyse the golem. But I think she'll probably be better off swinging her adamantine sword.

Eadiebot draws and drinks the infusion of Air Walk she's been given by Korin, and tentatively steps forwards.

I'm assuming a move action to draw the infusion and a standard to drink. Then 5' step.

Eadie did not have one of her primary weapons in hand when she dismounted, so there's only a single attack available unless she just punches the warsworn. I think she'd use her falchion. Her stat line doesn't include Power Attack by default but with just one attack Furious Focus is in play.

Eadie-bot pulls out her trusty blade, and chops down at the undead horror.

falchion vs warsworn, haste, power attack, furious focus, flank: 1d20 + 25 + 1 + 2 ⇒ (20) + 25 + 1 + 2 = 48slashing magic adamantine damage: 2d6 + 9 + 12 + 2 + 2 + 3 ⇒ (5, 3) + 9 + 12 + 2 + 2 + 3 = 36

confirm?: 1d20 + 25 + 1 + 2 ⇒ (12) + 25 + 1 + 2 = 40crit damage: 2d6 + 28 ⇒ (6, 6) + 28 = 40

"As my Aunt Alix used to say: They don't like it up 'em!. At least I think that was Aunt Alix."

Quenly here, botting Eadie

Eadie-bot swallows her Potion of Em-Biggening as the warsworn blows chunks at her trusty steed.

Quenly deposits the warrior-woman at her desired range.

I've seen table variation on the timing of Enlarge Person potions - some GMs rule that they take effect immediately, some that it takes 1 round to take effect, and others that the drinker grows over the course of the round. Whilst I personally rule the first way, I'll just say that the intent her is to drop Eadie - whatever size she is - into a flanking position with Korin.

Does Eadie still have a standard action available?

Nokebot Reflex DC23: 1d20 + 14 ⇒ (19) + 14 = 33

Botting as per Claudia's Discussion post.

Claudia looks from Abaal to Nemesis as Janus zips past her. Sure that the Daring Sword of Katapesh will repay his injury in kind, she hops ahead of Nemesis to prevent the zombies from swarming her allies. She draws her little sword to defend herself, and evokes a blast of arcane fire.

fire damage: 5d4 ⇒ (2, 2, 1, 1, 1) = 7 Burning Hands vs red and orange zombies, DC15 Ref for half.

"Aw, man! There's a HUGE vault down here, there's gotta be a key somewhere!" complains Damielbot.

perception: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (16) + 6 = 22

Damielbot sizes up the opposition, and decides it's worth trying to get the finishing blow in. But preferably without burning friendlies. He pulls a dagger and throws it at the remaining assassin.

dagger vs blue, pbs, into melee: 1d20 + 3 + 1 - 4 ⇒ (11) + 3 + 1 - 4 = 11

Then he steps aside. "After you, ladies."

Damielbot tests the locks, with a little divine aid from Aurora (guidance).

disable device, coffer DC20, guidance: 1d20 + 7 + 1 ⇒ (12) + 7 + 1 = 20

...aaaand there she goes! Payday!" Damielbot fills his pockets with gold and silver.

"Now let's try the big boy."

But it doesn't take long for the alchemist to admit defeat. "Nah, too tough. It'd be easier to break down the wall than get through this door."

"Hang on, Damiel. The Divine Princess got you into the small box - have a little faith." Aurora bestows another blessing and encourages Damiel to try the vault one more time. Divine Vessel - Guidance cast on Aurora, +2 to everyone else's next skill check etc

disable device, vault door DC30, guidance, divine vessel: 1d20 + 7 + 1 + 2 ⇒ (1) + 7 + 1 + 2 = 11

"Your Divine Princess ain't looking at me now, that's for sure!" Damielbot laments as he breaks a lockpick. "We need to find a key if we're gonna get inside here."

Damielbot throws another bomb through the doorway.

Do splash weapons 'splash' around corners? Not sure if a bomb aimed at Red Assassin would splash Aurora and Zu or not. I think they'd at least have cover. Damiel's attack will be directed at Red Assassin if the splash won't affect Zu and Aurora, or at Blue Assassin in the back if it would.

bomb vs bad guy, small, pbs: 1d20 + 4 + 2 + 1 ⇒ (12) + 4 + 2 + 1 = 19damage: 1d6 + 4 + 1 ⇒ (6) + 4 + 1 = 11 5 splash damage, DC14 Reflex for half.

"Boom, baby, boom!"

Let's see if Damiel can help then.

Damielbot returns fire, lobbing a bomb into the back ranks of the enemies.

bomb vs blue assassin, small. pbs: 1d20 + 4 + 2 + 1 ⇒ (14) + 4 + 2 + 1 = 21damage: 1d6 + 4 + 1 ⇒ (2) + 4 + 1 = 7
5 splash damage to the rest of the bad guys, Ref DC14 for half.

"Who needs wizards, eh?"

Damielbot advances to get a better look. "Holy crap, Aurora, haul your watery arse out of there!"

With no reasonable likelihood of landing a bomb attack that wouldn't burn Aurora fiercely too, Damielbot quaffs an extract and shrinks down to the size of a halfling. Consume extract of Reduce Person - will help his accuracy and AC.

"Oh. OH! Okay, that's more impressive. I can think of a few uses for that. Can you repair it?" asks Damielbot.

Damielbot's eyes go wide. "I... I could make SO. MUCH. GEAR."

He only stops salivating when his attention is drawn to the chest. "Huh. Simple lock compared to the cells. Just a minute." The elf takes his tools and makes short work. Pass DC15 with a take 10.

"What the hells is this junk? A broken clockwork? Is this a joke, dwarf-guys?"

"Well that's alright then. I'm a craftsman too" Damielbot answers.

"You know where sneaky might be? Because it'll take me a couple of minutes to get each of you out and anyway I'd rather know he was out of the picture entirely." Damielbot glances nervously down the corridor, not wanting to experience another sudden stab in the bsck.

"Ow ow ow alright Hel, alright. They're offering a fair deal, and if they're secretly shapechangers I'll set them on fire, okay?"

Damielbot looks for the dwarves reactions, and as long as they're suitably afraid of being set on fire, he sets to work on the locks.

disable device: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (6) + 7 = 13

"Ack, I can't work with you digging me in the ribs, Hel!"

Assume we could take 20 though, given time?

Damielbot cracks a sunrod and throws one of the cloaks over himself by way of makeshift disguise. "Huh. This one belongs to 'Knuckles'."

The alchemist listens at the eastern door and examines it for traps.

perception: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (20) + 6 = 26

Having availed himself of a bow and arrows as backup weapons, Damielbot follows too.

The alchemist groans and stands up clutching his sides. "Owwww.... what hit me? Feels like the morning after a pesh bender. What? A skulk? Where?"

Damielbot looks from side to side, and steps around the boxes to glimpse the fleeing humanoid. "I see that bastard!"

Ah, a bomb is risky in a warehouse full of wooden crates. But I'll get him if he comes back.

"Yeah, you better keep running, or you'll go the same way as that... that blog-thing!"

Move to stand, free to 5' step, draw wand of clw if he has it otherwise ready a bomb if the skulk returns.

"Lemme see what I can do about that big blob of... whatever it is" says Damielbot, as he manoeuvres for a clear shot and then lobs an alchemical bomb at the ooze.

bomb vs ooze touch, pbs, into melee: 1d20 + 4 + 1 - 4 ⇒ (13) + 4 + 1 - 4 = 14damage: 1d6 + 4 + 1 ⇒ (5) + 4 + 1 = 10 x1.5
miss, direction: 1d8 ⇒ 3 Hopefully 14 hits it? If not, Damiel aimed at the bottom right square of the ooze. Ooze gets a DC14 Reflex save to take half of 5 damage (x1.5).

Ooops. already used Damiel's clw potion

Damielbot shakes his head at all the noise.

"Pipe down brats, I've got a hangover and I'm trying to only set the bad men on fire!"

The doorway is too narrow and is full of fighting plants anyway, but to satisfy his own frustration the unlucky alchemist grabs the nearest child's toy and throws it at the thug.

throw anything! vs blue, cover, into melee, pbs: 1d20 + 3 + 1 - 4 - 4 ⇒ (10) + 3 + 1 - 4 - 4 = 6damage, pbs: 1d4 + 1 ⇒ (1) + 1 = 2 -ish, depends on size of the toy really

"Huh. Almost had me there. Who're these fools anyway? What's going on here?" Damielbot exclaims as he reaches into his pack and pops a potion. Using Damiels' clw potion.

cure light wounds: 1d8 + 1 ⇒ (7) + 1 = 8

"Have a quick rummage, see if there's anything we can use and then let's get after Helvetica - I mean, their boss. Er, right?"

Thomas Hutchins wrote:

if 70% success with just a little investment

A trait, a feat, your species, that species alternate race trait, and 30% of your gold is not a little investment by any measure

And there is a very good argument for a 70% success rate not being very good. It comes up often enough that you wind up spending a fight every other session not getting to play your character.

I'll second that...

I get to choose between getting possessed and becoming a meat puppet, or building characters which spend their time devoting the interesting option part of their customization selecting things to not get possessed.n If you chuck bombs, you need to have point blank shot, precise shot, and precise bomb... it's hard to have an effective bomb type alchemist without that.

The overall number of feat slots and options isn't a reflection of the number of actual choices you get with a build... sometimes your build simply does not work without certain things.

Yes, you can make an alchemist who doesn't fail ALL the time... or succeeds more.. but your build is basically completely set.

The cleric/druid over there? He's doing what he wanted to do anyway.

Let's do Rogue next. :-/

I mean, I'm gonna ask the question: why are we banning things at all.

Is Lore Warden ruining someone's fun? Are the characters who have it ruining people's fun?

Pathfinder is a game which sells monthly content with more options.

The core mechanics of this game are pretty terribly balanced.. when certain classes can win initiative and 1-shot other classes with a high DC spell, it's about as bad as it can get. Rocket tag.

And Lore Warden in the problem?

I don't actually think the problem is the classes with saving throw based spells.. the problem is that the other classes don't have options to compete. And they KEEP HITTING the martial classes with nerfs. It's unreal.

Things were so much better at the time of the ACG for martial characters in comparison.

If the argument is, 'Too many additional resources is hard for the new character', then reprint the Core Rulebook. Or include a list of core feats and equipment from alternate resources in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide.

But nerfing 'must haves' is silly. Are we going to nerf 'Cloak of Resistance' since it's effective at pumping saves?

The clear spindle nerf is another martial blow... I understand the reasoning for the nerf - but I think it takes the game into an even more rocket-tag state.

at lv9 you're looking at 3+3+1+2+2-1= will save of +10, +12 with heroism. Against DC 20 you have 45% chance to fail pre heroism, 35% with heroism.

3 (cloak of resist)

Tumor Familiar, Iron Will and a Trait is basically 2.5 feats patching will...

But I don't see anything vital or critical we're sacrificing for this build. +13 will save didn't require any perfect race, gear or build for this alchemist. All it required was choosing to build a character to compensate for their poor save. Tumor protector familiar's are all the rage with alchemists, so why not fix the will save with it!

I think the issue here is that if you buy a special wayfinder, you've purchased an item for your character. The character is unchanged only it has different gear. This character is a specific character which has been optimized for will saves. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does put you in a pretty small box - it's just as restrictive as the 'powergaming builds' that people rail against. It's not doing something abusive of the game (it's trying to not be taken over), but it IS restricting your character by taking certain class specific options to patch a weakness.

This is equal to a cleric lv9 with +3 cloak and 16 wisdom. This is putting us around what most clerics, wizards, and other classes that have a good will save are at.

A level 9 cleric is going to be 18-20 for his starting stat, putting 2 points into it for level ups, and a +2 hat (at least). So generally, a +6 for the stat, and +6 for their good save. They'll sit at +15 before heroism. +17 if they've maxed their casting stat and bought a +4 hat. +19 with heroism.

For me, I can tell you that I would rather play a will based character every time than have to spend 2.5 feats on will saves.

Okay, I'll bite.

It's good that the Spindle is (probably) going. It was bad for the game.

The risk of being "taken over" is part of the game. It's a key ability for various schools of magic and classes that use them. It's also a key ability of several classic monsters.

The Ioun Stone is forcing authors to put in questionable choices in adventures to circumvent it; labelling something which is obviously a possession effect as a "curse" just to get around it, or "can't believe he's not Evil" chaotic neutral villains.

If you're worried that you'll one-shot other PCs if possessed, maybe it's a moment to reflect on the soundness of your character building style. Maybe you've put so much trust in your spindlefinder that you thought you could get away with focusing all-out on attack, instead of a more healthy balance between attack and defense?

Let me first say that I agree with part of what you have said - I think an interactive game is better than a non-interactive one from a balance perspective. So, for instance it's better if you have to roll a roll to do something to another player (or stop a player from doing something) than if you don't have to roll anything.

HOWEVER, this is why I think the current situation post-removal from the clear spindle ioun stone is worse.

1. Now people pretty much auto-fail, and don't succeed a lot of the time even if they spend resources on it if they're certain classes.
2. Having your character taken over is not fun.
3. Killing other PC characters with your character isn't fun.
4. Being killed by other PC characters isn't fun.

An alchemist has no reason to have Wisdom, but let's say you have a 12 in it. You're level 9 and you buy a cloak +3 and +1 morale ioun stone. You've got a +7 to save. You fail on a 1-12 on DC 20, which is a 60% fail rate. And realistically, let's say you have a 10 wisdom (did not dump) and have a Dex mutagen up, you're looking at a 70% fail rate.

On the flip side, if you're a level 9 caster, you cast a level 5 spell, you started with 20 in your stat, increased it 2 times and have 2x spell focus. That's DC23 with no metamagics or other shinnanigans. It's pretty easy to get to an unsaveable save DC.

I've seen characters not able to make will saves on a 19 in 7-11 in PFS. Granted, those characters are not without guilt... but if trying and spending a lot of gold on saves gets you a 35% pass chance, I can understand why some people pass it up.

I feel like there should be something to stop you from murdering everyone around you. Why should they print 'No PVP' in PFS, then basically create (fairly unavoidable for some characters) PVP through the environment? It's the same end result!

In the absence of anything else being printed, UMD and magic circle 10ft seems like the choice now :-/

I understand why the 'I'm immune' response annoys people, but the, 'I can't save except on a 20' phenomenon is also troublesome. It indicates that even with buying help to their save, the character would still have a hard time passing.

You're going to love the seducer's bane, found in the wrists section of Ultimate Equipment!

:( Doesn't work, since it's a resistance bonus. If it were a circumstance bonus, or a sacred bonus, or a competence bonus, I would definitely consider. Although ~10k is a bit high to consider in addition to your normal cloak...

I strongly feel that while clear spindle ioun stone is very good, there should be more items which can be purchased to avoid your character being taken over by hostile forces.

Even if you purchase a +5 cloak of resistance, a character who doesn't CAST with Wisdom gets ruined by a halfway decent caster who can control him.

When the DCs start getting into or higher than 20, your +6 +1 (stat) and +4 from cloak, +1 morale (other ioun stone) = 12 is a 40% chance to lose against a DC20 willsave after spending 20k on saves (which is a decent chunk at level 12). A level 5 spell + a 20 attribute = 20.

And losing means murdering your party.

I think if you're going to take clear spindle ioun stone away, I would strongly advise printing a cleaner (more clear) item which does a +5 circumstance bonus for 8,000 gc against compulsion, charm, domination effects and possession effects. Without a cloak of resist, you will still lose against these types of saves without a good will save. Perhaps a minor and major version - with the Minor version being 2k gold for +2 circumstance bonus.

Such an item would still miss things that would make you afraid, sad, stunned, confusion, insanity ect...

Being taken over by other characters is not fun. Killing your party members is not fun. And building a fighter or weak willsaved character who can make these types of saves is not feasible.

We do feel the pain of players wanting games and are looking at ways to mitigate it while still keeping the campaign integrity intact.

I thank the posters, that they posited ideas politely and kept the discussion cordial. Let's keep the conversation going and see where it leads us!

I can completely see that there are valid reasons to have concerns about people replaying old adventures for credit.

From a personal standpoint, however, I have played 60% of all Pathfinder modules, most of which are not season 0 or season 1, which means that I now have a difficult time actually playing PFS regularly despite being *blessed* with living in an area where we have a great shop and 2-3 tables which fire every week to play since most of the content is season 3+ which I have played a lot of.

Unfortunately, there are also a lot of people who regularly GM there, so GMing will not be able to make up the difference. I know several people in the same boat here.

I play this game socially to hang with people and it seems odd that we make it difficult for the most avid players to play, since you can't replay a game and play with your friends without being a GM. If I could play core characters in a non-core games, I would...

I don't have all the answers here as to the solution for the problem - but I think it is a real issue which causes you to lose players from the community which are by there very nature very devoted to your game.

Edit: And I would be 100% happy to be unable to get a single boon when replaying a scenario. Maybe that's a distinction as to what you can use a GM star to get or something... I just want to play the game.

Well, I have absolutely no interest in futuristic RPGs, including Starfinder. At all. And I also hate that it's in the same world as my fantasy genre.

Like, "Look, nothing bad can happen since we made it to the future OK." Did they have to lower the stakes on my Fantasy game??

So I hope they do not dial back their releases of the things that I do care about (Pathfinder) for the things which I do not (Starfinder).

(Not saying that it is a bad game or that other people who like it are wrong - just that I do not)

Beckman wrote:

If you do -2 to hit from Slashing Grace, you're about 55% chance to hit a CR9 critter with AC21.

Slashing Grace would not work with two-weapon fighting. Are you perhaps meaning Piranha Strike?

That's the one. Yup, Yup. Sorry :-/

Thomas Hutchins wrote:

EDIT:
Also because skills don't always come up. If you're the dex skills guy and those skill never come up then you're at effectively not having skills and not having combat. Combat happens far more than most skills you bring for the party are used.

It is not a either/or choice. Being a Skills PC does not mean we are unable to do anything in combat.

I build PCs to fill many roles - even Primary Combat ones. I try to play the ones other people DON'T bring to the table. As a result, I often play "Face" or "Trapsmith" or "Gadgets" or "Scout"... because no one else at the table fills those roles. I don't often have to play "Max Damage" or "Tank", as those seem to be the most common role other people play - and the 3rd (or 4th) Combat Specialist at the table doesn't really seem to add as much to the party as the "Face" (or "Trapsmith" or "Gadgets" or "Scout"...)

The reason I build very "optimized PCs" - specialists - is that I do not want to be the reason your PC dies. Sometimes when PCs die, the player looses everything they have worked for MONTHS or YEARS on. Nothing would bother me more than knowing that that 3rd level guy of yours, that you ran thru 8 scenarios (about 40 hours of table game time, maybe another 40 or 80 hours of hobby time at home tinkering - easily as much as a year of someones gameing) just got tossed in the trash,...

I generally object to the line of thinking that these are roles that need to be covered. In the VAST majority of scenarios we have no one who can disable traps. And it's fine. EVERYONE has good perception and so we see the trap and move on. Or we had the barbarian open the trap and it's fine. It's just not a role that's really needed for party success. Always LOOK for traps, but that doesn't mean you have to solve them. Unfortunately, for good or bad a scenario has to keep running after you fail to disarm the trap. This is because many groups have no one who can do this role, and therefore scenarios are not made for you to lose them when you can't do this.. unless you fall in a pit and die. Which means you should max perception ranks and check for traps cautiously like a good pathfinder.

Many characters can simply throw money and maybe a trait (Clever Wordplay for people who dump CHR) at being a face.
Buy a wand of honey tongue (2pp)
Raiment of Command?
Aspect of the Nightingale?
Ioun Stone?
Masterwork Tool (needs to be specific, but you can easily imagine some of these specific tools you could make. A stylish scarf for dealing with the upper crust of a Qadiran city, ect)

Yes, you do not have every CHR skill. Most scenarios you will only need some diplomacy to get by. But INT casting types (Wizards, Magus, ect) get a boatload of Knowledges. The investment is minimal for most characters.

When you do not have enough combat capable players, one or more than one people die and you CAN lose the scenario. Everyone, even characters who are good at social skills, should make significant contributions to combat. Encounters are balanced around combat capable PCs. The more people you have not contributing much, the more likely it is for very bad things to happen.

@Murdock

Yeah, Clerics have it hard for feats, and delaying PRC until 9 in order to get level 8 domains seems hard... So you're locked out of giving everyone freedom of movements :O

it seems like all the feats you're suggesting are nice to have feats. Not feats that are required for the build to operate.

TWF and ARCHERY needs the TWF feat and precise shot to function

...

You're getting an interesting character by your PrC instead of by extra traits.

I agree that these feats are not required to have the character function at all. However, the question is what you want your character to do. For a save or suck caster at level 11, my goal is generally to push the mechanics of the roll to easier affect the enemy and to be harder to pass.

By the time I do that, I usually have a couple of feats left. Most of the feats above are pretty good, the question (to me, at least) is whether the PRCs which you would go into are better than what you get out of feats and if so, whether they power creep the game or disrupt other people's fun. On the flip side, it makes other options viable which were not before, so it's not all bad so long as those options are not -everywhere-.

Personally, I like seeing other people have cool abilities from a prestige class. Seems neat. I'd rather they have that, then +2 save DC on their super cool spell and +4 init.

More versatile is not always better, when your one trick is really, really, good. In this case, going first, casting spells first, and making those spells work is the boring and effective tactic, imo.

Or, honestly, summoning creatures is really powerful too. The utility of being able to pick creatures that I want to go fight for me it pretty awesome too. Making those creatures better is good utility also which competes for those slots that I would use for this feat.

People insisting that casters do not have need of their feats are being a bit disingenuous I think

I actually disagree here - I think their perspective is a valid one. They're disagreeing with what the definition of 'need' is.

Also, I think we've done a *very* good job this thread of putting forth ideas, builds and perspectives this thread without using words which have a negative connotation to describe other arguments.

plaidwandering wrote:

People insisting that casters do not have need of their feats are being a bit disingenuous I think

Can you provide an example of casters that need of all of their feats? I've been asking, and none have been given.

Spell focus, greater, spell pen and greater. this is a SoS wizard.
Spell focus, spell specialization, spell pen and greater. this is a blaster wizard.
both use rods for metamagic. or go *human to pick up a meta if needed/wanted. *humans are the best for a reason.

Spell focus, augment summons, superior summons. this is a summoning wizard.
open, open, open, open, buffing utility wizard.

so care to share some common or frequent builds that need a ton of feats for a caster?

Here are some feats which make your life better as a caster who makes people take Saving Throws:

All casters:
Improved Initiative
Additional Traits

CHR casters
Noble Scion of War

Any caster who casts spells which use SR, which is most of them:
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Allied Caster, if you have a way to give teamwork feats to a friend who has a spell of yours memorized.

Blasters:
Elemental Substitution: ____ (again, you can only apply one rod on a spell, so sometimes you do not want the rod to be an elemental damage change)

Want a better Familiar?
Improved Familiar
Familiar Feat - to give your improved familiar something silly

For the summoning Wizard, or someone who just has extra feats
Academae Graduate (standard action critters)
Augment Summoning
Superior Summoning

For the stealthing wizard:
Skill Focus: Stealth
Hellcat Stealth (Stealth in your friend's Daylight spell)
Dampen Presence

These are the feats I would mention at first blush as ones most wizards would like to have. It's even good to take the summoning feats if you're not a summoner. Summon 1d3+1 small earth elementals.. at level 5, this is not a bad option. You can eventually summon 1d3+1 Ankylosauruses as a standard. Or multiple succubi. It's pretty sweet. We have to weigh the things you get from the prestige class over these types of options. The ability to make 3 creatures which do melee attacks at +7 / 1d6+10 (inc power attack and augment summoning) at level 5 as a standard (whereas as a full round option you may be disrupted significantly easier) is a relevant alternative to spending feats elsewhere, and standard action summoning doesn't get much worse as you level up.

But it's not like it's the only possible strong option to be created from the above and it's not like my feats are somehow the only ones in the game which are good - I haven't done an exhaustive search.

Ryzoken wrote:

So we should ban power attack. After all, it's desired by virtually any character that swings a stick.

Power Attack, the big 6 magic items, etc. are all considered--in some ways--examples of how this design goal has not always been met in Pathfinder.

It's more complicated than that--I personally feel like there should be a way for people who want to get better at "hitting stuff" to become better at it other than gaining levels, so perhaps the problem lies more in the importance of damage or the limited number of ways you can improve it--but you are certainly not alone in pointing that out.

Edit: forgot the important part! Failing to accomplish a design goal does not mean you should give up on ever accomplishing it. A pretty good but imperfect game is better than a terribly broken one in almost every circumstance.

So I think what we're trying to get at here is how the feat changes build diversity. Will everyone take this feat and make PRCs? There seems to be interest in doing so, but will everyone build the same one?

How many people have Archers? Did they have point blank, precise shot, rapid shot, manyshot, deadly aim, clustered shots? That seems like a much more cookie-cutter and uninteresting progression to me - it's basically ALL the feats that a character gets unless they're a fighter.

Is the game more diverse or less diverse when you have 3 different PRCs which took this feat to get there as opposed to a game where everyone plays the core classes? I would argue more diverse, since there is a wider variety of things that characters do, although each of the characters choosing to gain additional options characters has a build restriction.

(I'm speaking about the diversity, not about the power level)

Citing arcane archer seriously? One of the worst offenders

Arcane Archer is a great class if you can early entry (there previously were ways to do this), but currently that does not exist...

and I think to your point, since every archer is going to want/need weapon focus longbow) (it's a prereq) point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, many shot and then now 2 additional feats at minimum, adding 2 more feats to this is 7 feats. It's a very narrow build.

The deal is the prestigious spellcaster feats will be considered mandatory on any PrC that grants casting.

Yes? Many of these PRC classes are not played because they are so bad. I'd rather people take a "mandatory" feat on a class they otherwise would not even consider than have those classes remain bad.

Boon Companion is mandatory on any character with an animal companion which starts off having the animal at -3 levels progression?

Also with full casting on PrC there's little to no reason to stay pure wizard or pure cleric and not go into a PrC class of some sort. My bet is they don't want the majority of people to play PrC, so if PrC are easily and popularly viewed as better than the base class then PrC are in a spot that is not where they want them to be.

Largely, I agree with this point - Although I would point out that with Wizard you will likely cost yourself a bonus feat if you stay in the class long enough. In addition to the two feats you paid to gain access. And whatever you had to satisfy to get into the prestige class.

So we're back to the point of, so, like, what PRCs are better the 2-3 feat slots you will lose. Let's stat it out. Is it better than a non-PRC character?

I was given a Pathfinder Companion subscription as a gift, which was a good idea, since I play PFS avidly.

However, given the fact that anything remotely interesting in the Paths of the Righteous book was withheld to be a boon, I am having it disabled and will evaluate the books as they are put onto the Additional Resources page.

Basically 50% of that book is banned. Prestigious Spellcaster, to me, was the lowest blow, since they left the prerequisite feat which is basically like worse Toughness / Skill focus. (Suffice it to say I do believe that Prestigious Spellcaster is a balanced feat, but whether it is or isn't is outside the scope of what I'm trying to say).

I bought this book to play it in PFS, and options are being withheld on a whim. Taking pieces of the product away, then doling them back out as a reward for playing certain chronicles doesn't engender positive feelings.

I am of the opinion that the large majority of options which appear in PF content should be legal - the only reason for not doing so being item creation, they're an evil option, too campaign specific, or too laborious to run at a PFS table (Master Summoner), etc. But banning things because of balance shows poor (or no) playtesting.

Not sure what went on with that book, but I'm sorry that it was printed in such a way that you could buy it, then not be able to use anything that you wanted to.

So a good GM should be able to challenge the group. The difficult part is when one player is significantly better than others to the extent that now in order to challenge one player, he risks throwing too much to the party at large.

Your stats are good. Your character seems good, and you're playing Mythic. If other people are built badly, then maybe you're overpowered by comparison?

Also, putting yourself in the GM's shoes, if you have a high threat melee combatant who is really hard to kill, charges into the combat and deals a lot of damage... when the GM hasn't scaled the encounter, this seems like he might feel stuff just melts and he can't even challenge you. If the above (characters being at different power levels) isn't true, then he needs to scale better.

I feel that with the magic specializations especially, they are pretty handicapped compared to other comparable classes.

If you take your spells at levels 4, 8, 12, ect that leaves you with extra talents at levels 2,6,10

This means that you functionally get 3 cool things during PFS play.

3 cool things is a lot worse than the other options that you could get.

Arcane Example:
EX: Bard vs Warlock (if you still care about the social)
OR Magus vs Warlock (if you're more combat oriented)

Bard just gets his spells and can use them in any form. Bard has mind affecting abilities, can buff the party AND has a bunch of skill points with 3/4 BAB.

By comparison, the Vigilante gets some social powers and 3 abilities that are a little better than feats.

Your best options are:
1. Concealed Casting - if I had a dime for every time I got into the 'I cast suggestion' and the GM says, 'Combat Begins, roll initiative', I would be rich. This makes it hard to argue that. I think it would be good to have a reminder of what happens when someone casts a save spell on a target from no known source - Does the target know? What does the target know? But this is a good power. It's a shame the save DC of your powers will be low.
2. Educated Defense - This is a pretty cool thing.
3. Bombs - even with less bombs per day and having to splash a level of Alchemist to get INTMOD damage, this is still a good option.

I think there needs to be a lot more on the table to justify giving up on 9 levels of spellcasting for 6 levels and 3/4 BAB. Bards beat you in the combat game by a fair margin.

Divine / Zealot Example:
Just look at a Knowledge Oracle. It's got 9 levels of magic to do whatever you wanted to do, only better.

A more linear example would be the Inquisitor - they get Domains, only they don't have to pay class resources for them. And they also have some social standing. And they have Judgements. And prolific archetypes doing whatever you wanted to do.

Let's exclude Life Bond from the discussion, since it has some potential - you could give every zealot talent for free to this class and it would be worse than an inquisitor in combat by a fair margin (Although, obviously you couldn't front load it or people would splash the class).

Last, this class's casting specializations are falling into a 3/4 BAB trap with the Arcane and Divine casters. If you're playing a spellcaster, you need INT or CHR because you cast your spells with it. You can sac the other, but will be bad at one of the better things about the class - the skill list.

If you're intending to physically interact with monsters, you will have to invest in physical stats which will make you MAD and you will need to dump something to be effective - which will most likely be INT, CHA, or WIS. Even with high STR, you have no inbuilt to-hit buffs, and you have 3/4 BAB with 6 levels of spellcasting as your only way to buff.

If you decide not to participate in smashing face with weapons, your DCs will be low like Bards. You don't get the raw number of spells to buff yourself heavily like an Oracle or Cleric would. You don't have the Inquisitor or Warpriest's side abilities to help with combat.

Since you don't get to hit abilities, you're either going to be unable to hit / deal damage in combat without buffing. When you buff, you'll end up where many classes start out which makes the 3/4 BAB pretty worthless. Which then forces you to play the buff / support game / save or die bot, which you do worse than other classes

You CAN be a very skilled character, but the issue with this is that while you can do 12 (6+INTMOD + hat + human) skills with INT as a primary stat, it's reasonable for another class to have around 8 (2+INTMOD + hat + human) and the other class may also be effective at those 8, which doesn't give you very much of a niche.

So here's my feedback so far:

What is this class supposed to do?

Look at the other 3/4s focus classes in the game. Magus, Alchemist, Summoner, Hunter, ect. I feel like I have a reason to take them. They DO something better than taking a Cleric or a Druid. If I took a Cleric or Druid I would get 9 levels of casting, 3/4 BAB and some random powers. If I take a Magus, though, I can cast spells through my weapon and eventually nova people for huge damage. A warpriest can buff up with Cleric powers faster than a cleric, gets some domains and can smash face.

It just feels like these resonant power are the ONLY thing they get to do that's special, and it doesn't make up for them having 3/4ths BAB. I tried to make a fighter, and he's just bad compared to a regular fighter. EVEN AT FULL FOCUS. It seems like some of the best things I could do would to be make a saves based character.

You also start out with a VERY NARROW starting spell list that upgrades to a slightly less restrictive restricted spell list. It's a million times worse than the Bard's spell list. A bard is actually easier to make a fighter than this class, since it has access to all the buffs it wants.

As it stands now, I can't find a reason to play this class that another class doesn't already have. It has an identity, but it's just very weak. One thing that entrances me about this class are the focus powers. They are very good, but you get so few of them. If you got more of these powers it might make the class more playable - you would have more options that would make the class more distinct. Maybe change this to something like 1st level, 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter.

The focus powers seem like what this class wants to do, and Focus already limits what you can do with most of them. I think the class could do for some more options. A feat to let them take another focus power with an implement they know would also be welcome.

Last, I want to talk about my favorite power for this class - Distortion - and how by my reading you have to be level 16 before you can get permanently invisible? 5%+5%/2levels? harsh. I really would like to play this character. It's such a cool concept. If I had my way, it would be 25%+5%/level after level 1. Which would mean you could permanently invis yourself at level 6. Which I think is by no means game breaking. The invisibility aspect is explained so much that I want to play it... But then it's snatched out of your reach by a level limit. I WANNA BE FRODO :(

Too Much Text

Really, quoting a novel at someone and telling them to read and dissect it is pretty lazy...

If you want to role play apart from your stats, sure... The point of games is to have fun. If you can find people who think like you do, then again... go for it.

I don't think that it makes the position logical.

I think it makes no sense. It takes away from my enjoyment of the game, and I would have to think seriously about whether I wanted to be in a game with a DM who was OK with the INT 3 barbarian who speaks and acts perfectly normal... and comes up with battle strategies.

Pick your stats to match your character, if you wanted a smart character who's a fighter... you may have to not be optimal. Or if you wanted a foolish cleric, play a cleric of battle... and just charge into a fight every five seconds.