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joela wrote:
Complete post can be found here. My take? It's literally location, location, location. And that's fine. I'd like to have seen some examples, though.

Someone dropped me a line about this thread, so I thought I'd give a little more detail.

Pretty much at random, I decided that the OD&D dungeon would be an abandoned temple of Poseidon. I drew my map and started to stock it.

For the main altar area, I penciled in a huge statue of Poseidon, a bunch of columns carved to look like kraken, and a giant pool of water. My instincts at that point would then be to find monsters that would fit into that area, creatures that could use the pool in interesting ways (a aquatic spellcaster that the characters couldn't reach; critters that could climb the columns and attack from above), but OD&D doesn't really support that style. The creatures are really, really simple, so any special effects would have to come from the room.

That's when things got interesting. What if the room itself was the interesting bit, and whatever monsters were there just made the room more interesting, rather than vice versa?

I ended up with the following:

* The pool was a sacrificial pit, with offerings of gold and jewels thrown into it. Some treasure was still down there for the taking.

* Touching the pool was sacrilege, and any non-Poseidon worshiper who touched it sparked the sea god's wrath. The temple doors slammed shut and water poured from the columns to drown intruders. Of course, items could enter the pit just fine, so thinking of a way to use a pole or net to grab them would avoid Poseidon's anger.

* A trap door in the ceiling provided an escape from the flooded room, but you couldn't really spot it until the water level lifted you up to see it. Even then, you had to tap the ceiling/look for it.

* The state had a system of bellows and speaking tubes that allowed a high priest hidden in a secret chamber next door to "speak" with the voice of Poseidon.

* Later on, as I fleshed out the rest of the temple, I added short descriptions of murals on the walls that provided clues to other tricks and traps (a flooding chamber used for living sacrifices; a hidden door leading to a treasure room; the garb required to pass into the crypts). The murals also provided clues for the trap in the main temple.

* For the finishing touch, I decided that the "monster" in the room was a gnome illusionist who had discovered the secret speaking chamber. Speaking as Poseidon, he would demand sacrifices, order adventurers to engage in quests in his name, and so on. When dealing with troublemakers or adventurers who doubted him, he'd try to lure them into reaching into the pool to trigger the temple's death trap.

That's one example. Other stuff I've added to adventures with this process included the haunted skull of a dead adventurer that answered questions about the dungeon in return for a proper burial, the statue of a sea nymph that beguiled adventurers into adorning it with jewelry and other treasures, and a puzzle room where the priests of Poseidon ritually drowned heretics. That room had a sequence of actions you could take to unlock a sealed vault, but you could only learn the actions by studying the murals and tomes in a few, scattered rooms.

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EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
Ok, can anyone speculate why Mr. Mearls took the time to give us that post? This thread just got started so I'm guessing that the Paizo board is montitored fairly closely (as I assume other sites are as well). All I pretty much got out of his post was....Greyhawk would be to difficult to work with. Now there are similiar threads on other sites as well, some which are even more pro Greyhawk than Paizo. Stepping up to indicate that Greyhawk is to difficult to work with seems really odd to me. He could have just as easily ignored the thread. I can see posting if he wanted to make a positive announcement which would please folks here, but that wasn't the case. So really, why did he post in the first place? Anybody?

Uhhhh.... I like Greyhawk? I cruise the boards once in a while because I like Paizo, like the Paizo crew, and like Paizo's products?

I like attempting difficult things. Doing Greyhawk right is hard. Hence, it's something that interests me.

In any event, really interesting posts here, lots of stuff to digest...

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Greyhawk is probably the hardest setting in the stable of D&D worlds to do right. It's also probably the easiest one to do poorly.

Greyhawk has been stuck in this middle ground of years of benign neglect, punctuated with brief periods of tinkering and change. You have two customers you can chase with a Greyhawk book, and I think that puts up a really, really big hurdle to doing it right:

1. Greyhawk has existing fans who have studied the details, internalized the setting, and have a strong sense of ownership over it. When TSR let Greyhawk lie fallow, these were the guys who kept it going.

2. There are lots of potential Greyhawk fans out there who might like the setting if its presented to them correctly. They might know a little bit about the setting via the 3e core books and via the iconic adventures set there, but they don't know the details.

The problem is that these two groups want products that are mutually exclusive. You can't make both happy. Which one do you chase?

Other settings don't face this divide. They were put to pasture precisely because their fan bases had shrunk to the point they couldn't be sustained. Greyhawk has been cursed with existing at the edge of sustainability. It also still suffers from FR's "promotion" over it back in the 1980s; Yes, I, you, and most people reading this thread can rattle off how FR and GH are different, but can the typical D&D player?

Balancing the needs of the existing fans with the need to bring in new fans is probably one of the hardest things to do in game design, as 4e demonstrates. With Greyhawk, I think those difficulties are all the more daunting.

Of course, that doesn't mean we don't think about it. My desktop image is the awesome Greyhawk map that came in Dungeon.

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I dunno... Downer reminds me a bit of Wormy. The story wasn't always easy to follow, but the world is pretty interesting. I think an RPG based in Downer's setting would be pretty interesting.

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This is very cool news. I loved the Mad God's Key (just ran it a week back or so) and I'm anxious to see what Jason does with Dragon.

Congrats!