Me, I like Downer and am enjoying following the story. The Downer story has already provided me with some game ideas. I had a character loose a leg, and the big clunky boot that Downer has replacing his foot was the kind of idea I needed. I also like the "window into the underdark" that Downer provides. I do agree, that the story is segments would be hard to follow if you didn't read it from the start, but that is why you read it from the start. I hope that the Needle Man is explained further. Yet another interesting NPC that could be added to one of my games.
ASEO out
Contributor
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Most of the time, I have no idea what's going on in Downer except for a few general ideas. I don't care, either. I love it for the crazy roller-coaster ride it is, and even if I don't get everything that occurs, at least it's fun to read (and to look at...I like Kyle's artwork). So put me down as a Downer upper. Ow, I think that sentence just broke my brain... ;)
I could come up with a few better ideas for Dungeon than the two pages Downer wastes.A second Map of Mystery perhaps?
I gotta agree that Downer is a Downer. It seems more like a sort of inside joke rather than a comic. I don't really get it, nor am I interested in it enough to even care about it.
It's just two pages of the mag that I skip through each month.
Downer rules. I read it mainly for the way it pokes fun at the game. I love lines like "Had I the time to level up -- I would have made short work of you!" Or the fact that Downer is in a Dungeon Workers Union. I like the wit more than the story.
downer is a waste of good space.
downer is a waste of good space.
Maybe I'd feel differently if I'd read it from the beginning, but I don't see the point of Downer either.
Then again, it's just two pages. Until the guys at Dungeon have another article type like "the Journey" or "the Dungeon" in mind to replace it, it's not really cutting into adventure space.
The only multi-page comic I liked better than Downer was Godlike...turns out that was juse a series of advertisements...too bad.
ASEO out
I personally haven't tried to follow or read this mainly because it seems to rely a lot on what has gone on before. I also am not high on the artwork. I do like the four panel quarter page comics that are generally pretty amusing I forgot the name of the one with the mushroom. Two pages for a comic that is hard to follow doesn't seem very useful to me.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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We've got a "The Story So Far" text update in issue #116 (it was supposed to go in 114 to coincide with the relaunch, but alas. . .). I'm hoping the article acts as a good entry point to the continuing story, which is definitely complex.
Check it out next month and let me know what you think, please.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
I'm one of those "down on Downer" people.
I'm behind on reading my Dungeon mags, so I just got to the issue with Downer #1 a couple of days ago... and it was atrocious. I hoped it would get better, but now that I've surpassed part 4 (yesterday), it's only gotten worse.
The artwork is okay - the style is fine with me - but the writing is absolutely horrendous. While some might find the heavy modern-day anachronistic speech amusing, I find it tedious and silly ("dicking around"? Give me a break; I'm sure there could be a happy medium, here) - and I especially find the D&Dism-laden dialogue to be particularly annoying.
I'm probably missing the point of Downer - but it looks to be a point that I dislike. A lot.
(However, since it's only 2 pages, I'll live. Can't expect a magazine to be perfect, hmmmm?)
I don't think Arnwyn is missing the point. Downer is certainly not for eveyone. I find most euro-centric high fantasy silly and really narrow in focus. Downer talks like my friends and I would talk. I'm from the post-video game school of role playing, and get really uncomfortable when players speak in character, especially with a Shakspearean affectation. Only thing I can think of worse, would be playing in an Oriental Adventures campaign and adopting a fake asian accent.
My gaming experiences have all been chaotic, heavily metagamed, and anachronistic. Thus, Downer shares more with Pulp Fiction and Tank Girl than Lord of the Rings. You high fantasy fans have that whole triology to gush over, Downer is aimed at the more disenfranchised gamer.
I went back and reread the entire run of Downer (so far) last night. It is not bad. I actually like the art and humor. What I think it suffers from is that it only gets two pages a month (and sometimes gets bumped out of an issue) and with an ongoing storyline this is problematic in sustaining the reader's interest. Adding to that problem, the transition between episodes are not the clearest.
Examples:
1. In the last panel of one episode we see Serjenko smash Manglecramps central eye. In the first panel of the following episode, we see Manglecramps tongue wrapped around the legs of somebody who's pleading with Manglecramps. We never see that this is Serjenko in this episode. I had to compare the previous episode's clothing to that of legs shown in this episode to determine that it was Serjenko and not some snivelling servant. What I missed in the transition was how Manglecramps got the upper hand on the previously impressive Serjenko.
2. In the last panel of one episode we see Astrid blow off Downer's foot. In the first panel of the following episode we see Downer and his brother walking alone in the underdark with Downer's foot in stasis. What I missed in the transition is what happened to Astrid. Did she run away after shooting off Downer's foot? Did Downer and his brother attack her and kill her? If Astrid continued to attack, how did a wounded Downer and his wounded brother escape?
When there is a month between issues and there are only two pages to tell a story, the transitions between episodes should be clear and serve to jog the readers' memories. Instead, there have been times where I've wondered whether I've missed an issue.
This might be solved by the forthcoming "Story so far" inclusion. But it should also be dealt with by visual cues within the panels.
I'm interested in seeing the story continue.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I like Downer. The things I like best in D&D are there. Great monsters, dangerous combat, witty repartee, even an artifact. I like the idea that Downer lives near a graveyard filled with undead. That he knows a mind flayer who doesn't like to eat brains. And he is tough.
The art really captures what the Underdark would look like to me if I were to imagine it myself. I'm no artist and seeing everything in a cartoon like style just seems to fit the swashbuckling story and over the top action.
Dragon used to have the Wormtongue cartoon and it was even harder to follow than Downer. At least in Downer I know he has an artifact that adventurers would die to get. And a beholder, drow priestess, githyanki, and other assorted bad guys want to get hold of it as well.
Personally I like Downer, it's fun and at least no one seems to act like Drizzt! Thank god. I have only seen it from Manglecramps eating some guy, then missed the next three issues, so can someone tell me what happened before that?
Basically what the heck is going on?
I've tried to read it piecemeal, and have never been impressed, but these posts have convinced me to get all of my magazines in order and read it through.
Thanks everyone.
It's not funny, interesting or useful in anyway. I wish they'd ditch it.
We've got a "The Story So Far" text update in issue #116. I'm hoping the article acts as a good entry point to the continuing story, which is definitely complex.
Looking forward to it. I love it visually, but have a hard time following it as a non-comic book kind of guy.
Downer Rocks! Thanks for posting here, Kyle.
Although I missed before like episode 9, I still get the general jist of what's going on. Basically it is great, and I totally agree with Kyle about the whole Lord of the Rings voices etc. It was wonderful in Lord of the rings but I like the style of Downer too.
By the way, when is Kyle's site going to come back on line?
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It's not funny, interesting or useful in anyway. I wish they'd ditch it.
Amen. I share these exact sentiments, Yamo. I have read "Downer" from the beginning, and I still don't understand or like it. Those two pages can certainly serve a better purpose. "Downer" and "Wil Save" are the two elements of "Dungeon" I do not like.
By the way, when is Kyle's site going to come back on line?
Sometime soon, I'm sure. There's a lot of work that needs to go into the relauch of the site, and there's been some busyiness that has been keeping that from happening. ;)
Sean Glenn
Art Director Dragon and Dungeon magazines
We'll try to console ourselves with the 97% approval rating, then. ;)
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
There is your modivation to try harder.
j.
"Downer" and "Wil Save" are the two elements of "Dungeon" I do not like.We'll try to console ourselves with the 97% approval rating, then. ;)
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon
if it were based on those two elements alone... i'm afraid i'd have to agree with the other guy erik.
right now my approval rating of Dungeon is just slightly over 70%.
but at least that is up from where it was just 4 months ago.
you got rid of Poly which made me happier
you added an Old Skool Castle Greyhawk
and you changed the formats to reflect the readers.
all of those are making me happier.
but still... downer, will save, and the fact i can't get my subscription on time are... well disappointing.
Loved the text explination of what's going on in Downer. Makes a bit more sense now (I missed the first nine chapters). Anyway, just wondering if all the strips are going to be on Kyle's site when it eventually comes back on line. (Much as I would love to order the issues I missed, my finances won't allow it! )
Thanks. Even I was surprised at how much stuff has happened. Pacing a complex story out at two pages a month does make it hard to follow.
Once we can free up the bandwidth, we will make Downer back issues available, probably right here on paizo.com. I'd like that to happen before the end of the year.
The last couple of years I've been too busy generating work to pull it all together onto Super Unicorn's website. Time, money or ideas; seems I only get one of those at a time.
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you got rid of Poly which made me happier
you added an Old Skool Castle Greyhawk
and you changed the formats to reflect the readers.all of those are making me happier.
I definitely share diaglo's sentiments, as quoted above. And, while I made a negative comment each about Downer and Wil Save (which I still hold to), I am negligent if I don't extol Dungeon as a whole. The rest of the magazine is tremendously well done, and I am very excited about each issue - despite my dislike of the two offenders heretofore discussed.
It's like eating watermelon. I love watermelon - I just have to spit out a couple of seeds. But, I'll never stop eating it. It's too good.
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Just to add my two cents - put with in with the 97% approval rating for Downer. I like the dark comedy and subtle gaming references. I only wish we had more of the series. (It does move a bit slowly ... but this is more likely caused through the format than the storyboard.)
However, I am sadly disappointed with Wil save thus far. I had hoped it'd be a little more in depth rather than retellings of Wil's past gaming adventures/mishaps and his clinginess to his dice. But hey - that's just me.
I like...ed Downer, but the story got a bit too hard to follow. I think the problem with it is that the writer is not very good at the "flow" of comic panels into communication the story and action. Following what is going on in Downer is kinda like reading a manga from right to left, when it goes from left to right, disjointed.
First off, let me say I own and have read every Downer comic since #1. The plot is confusing and it seems to go no where fast, but it has some witty moments.
It's no Mt. Zogon, however.
IMHO, every Dungeon/Dragon comic strip should aspire to be as entertaining as Knights of the Dinner Table, by far my favorite strip of all time!
I am still not a fan of Downer, even after reading the history in the most recent issue. I am enjoying the rest of the magazine though!
after reading this thread for the past month and then reading the summary in the last issue I am now a Downer fan, before hand I didn't read it cuz I didn't know what was going on.
I re-read the whole thing and now love it. The first time we hear from Downer he cheers a crit when he offs a wussy bard.
awsome.
I too share in the disorientation some readers feel while reading Downer, but I think of that as a strength rather than a drawback.
What's the plot? Who cares?
Where's it going? Who cares?
I like it because it paints in odd detail the world in which D&D creatures exist. I won't say that it humanizes them, for that would be insulting to the creatures themselves, but I will say that it gives me a perspective unavailable to most readers of D&D material.
I like it. More, please.
I think that a)it's unfortunate that any cartoon series needs to have a two page "the story so far" review to explain what's going on in order for the readers to enjoy it (Dungeon 116) and b) it's unfortunate that the publishers of the magazine didn't realize that if the cartoon NEEDED the story explained that means that overall it's a crappy comic.
The writer has some interesting ideas, but the story is so all over the place and it's so hard to follow that they had to print a summary.
SnarfQuest was funny every time you read it whether or not you had read it from episode 1. Reading the whole thing made it funnier, but each episode stood on it's own as well. Free up the space for better comic material - or get Kyle Stanly Hunter an editor who knows something about pacing, who can trim away the excess crap out of his story and pick up up a bit.
I think it is a bit unfair to say that because a comic needs a summary it is "crappy". Unlike some other strips in Dungeon and Dragon, Downer has an actual storyline. I really like the other comics too, but they don't leave you wanting to find out what happens next. This could of course be because they are stand alone strips. Downer has a different style to some of the other comics and I like the fact that it isn't as generic.
Also I don't feel that it is hard to follow, unless you have missed a couple of issues (as I had done) or are perhaps new to roleplaying and don't automatically recognise a beholder on sight etc.
But each to their own view I guess.
I actually have a subscription, so I haven't missed any issues, and I have been playing since about 1980, so I'm fairly up on all of the references in the strip. I'm all for a continuing storyline, but too many characters are vying for panel space which - in a monthly publication - makes it really hard to follow. I don't want to be hauling out back issues every time I read a strip so I can refresh my memory of the storylines that have been going on. After issue 4 of Downer I just stopped caring about the strip. I read it, but I really didn’t care what was happening. I was recently talking about it with a few gaming friends of mine and was commenting that it was so poorly written it needed a synopsis with every issue – and then issue 116 came out with the summary – so I guess I’m not the only one who thinks it needs a bit of support.
But each to his own, I guess - ;)
BTW: SnarfQuest was a series that ran in Dragon magazine starting around issue 75. Usually one page per issue – a continuing storyline – great characters and easy to follow from anywhere you pick it up. Worthwhile checking out for anyone who’s interested. Done by Larry Elmore of Dragon-Lance fame.
So let me get this straight, you guys hate downer but care for wil save!!!!???
I think the general tone here (as in, on these boards) is that Downer and Will Save are the the least favorite returning items. Although I believe Downer's still ahead of Will.
Nothing brings a comunity together like a shared disgust. If you ask me, that's a pretty good reason to keep running the items. :-)
Seriously, though, I think both have to grow on you for a while. Flip through some of your back issues, like Torpedo sugests. If nothing else, you get to revisit some good adventures.
get Kyle Stanly Hunter an editor who knows something about pacing, who can trim away the excess crap out
For the record, Erik edits Downer. You should see it before it gets to him. Each installment is wittled down from 6-9 pages, resampled from hexachrome to CMYK, and translated from my native Polish.
EM and I provided "The Story So Far" as a response to the cry that the narrative was getting hard to follow. I'm by no means a veteran story teller, so I hear you. Economy of narrative is a tough lesson to learn. However, we do our best to serve the reader who keeps up with all the little details. Let this be a lesson to all you DMs out there that are so eager to share all your cool ideas, that your gaming sessions are a confusing bore.
Not that I compare, but I don't think League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and the Invisibles suffer from requiring summaries and support material.
And I HATED Snarfquest.
My apologies to Die Fledermaus, who I seem to have offend. I did not mean to insult your gaming expertise. 1980, that is a long time gaming, I mean I would only have been a couple of months old around then, so clearly don't have as much knowledge of stuff.
However my comments were simply to suggets that I don't see why downer is hard to follow really, I just missed a couple of issues so didn't have the back ground and I don't think one summary in over a year is that bad. After all how many TV shows can you think of that begin with the phrase "and previously on" and then lots of clips.
Also 6-9 pages of Downer doesn't sound that bad really, although the Polish would be a bit tricky! Also with the adventure path I find you have to look at old issues anyway.
Kyle,
Thanks for the response. You know, quite honestly I would be very interested in seeing the 6-9 page version. Not to compare, but the League of Extraordinary Gentleman and the Invisibles both have the luxury of quite a few more pages per issue to expand their storylines. It would be nice to see your story arc in a larger format, because that what it seems to be aspiring to be. I would bet that either of the aforementioned comic book titles in a monthly periodical where they had only 2 pages to tell their story would be pretty hard to follow as well. (Not that the Invisibles goes out of its way to be a smooth read) ;)
One of the things I really enjoy about both Dungeon & Dragon magazines are the comics that allow the gaming community to laugh at ourselves (i.e.Dork Tower), and/ or explore a “role-playing situation” as you do in Downer. As I mentioned, I read it every time. Unfortunately I just don’t care what’s happening. It’s not that I don’t want to enjoy it or care. I do – I really enjoy the comics, it just takes a wee bit to much effort (for me) for the format you are being published in.
However I do read it, so 1 point for Kyle, and I do know your name – score 2 for Kyle, and you’re being published and I rant on message boards under a pseudonym – score 3 for Kyle.
Kyle = 3, Brad = 0 Doh!
And how did you know my games are a confusing bore? lol
I ‘m very impressed that you read the message board – given that everyone has different tastes, no matter how good of a product you put out there, there will always be those who don’t like it. And of course message boards are forums where some of the “stronger” opinions are shared. Good on ya.
SnarfQuest rules!
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Chief Technical Officer
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We have some stock of the SnarfQuest collection.... you can find it here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/store/products/brand/dragon/v5748btpy7359
-Vic.
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I hate Downer. Good space wasted that could be used for gaming material.
Even worse was that Dragon felt the need to waste space on a "the story so far" article. I figured those who cared would already know what was going on.
Just to add my two cents - put with in with the 97% approval rating for Downer. I like the dark comedy and subtle gaming references. I only wish we had more of the series.
subtle? i would hardly call "you dated a 12-HD medusa for three years before killing her" subtle game refrences,
still, good stuff, it's decent but it doesnt always make sense, there are some very good lines in there such as
...i didnt kill her..HA GHOULS(strike martial arts pose)
YEE-HA, thats what ya get for bringing a violin on a dungeon crawl!
nope, no ghouls here, just me, loops, the dead bard, you killed me back in chapter one
what? i figured theyed just raise you
nope, you need a full body to cast raise, your imp ate a couple of my fingers, i cant even play properly anymore
This is the last time you will interfere with infernel politics