Kobold Devilspeaker

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I’m a bit stomped.

It might because of the wording and the language barrier (as the google translation is giving me a headache).

A player (a Witch) is telling me that she can copy a spell (that she doesn’t know) from a spell book (the she just found) onto a scroll via the Scribe Scroll Feat. Then learn it the she normally would by feeding it to her familiar.

I can’t find anything that directly says she can or can’t. And I followed a few threads but I haven’t found one that answer my question.

Can anyone help me out?


Hi everyone,

I will be starting a new campaign (placed in a city) and one of my players came to me with a very good background & character concept for his PC. However, I have a problem with his class archetype – which doesn’t exist (to my knowledge) in pathfinder, but should. So I need your help/constructive input/etc…

His background in short:
His character comes from a long line of apothecaries that serves many nobles of a city. Few know that they also provide those same nobles with certain illegal substance, such as drugs & poisons. Due to an indiscretion of his character, he now has to leave his family & home to escape retribution from certain nobles.

His class concept in short:
The player chooses to play an (gentlemen) alchemist who has vast knowledge in the art of “poison-crafting”.

I was surprise to see that there was no alchemist archetype for poisoners. With some brainstorming between ourselves, we came up with the basic idea of allowing him to take certain rogue abilities (such as: lasting poison & deadly cocktail) as discoveries.

What I need help with is another idea that we had; replacing his bomb ability with a poison-like ability. We came up with this;

“Virulent Poison”
This volatile concoction of your own creation his extremely potent, mere contact to this substance causes terrible pain.
This ability functions like the alchemist bomb ability. This new ability follows the same “damage track” & the same “use per day” as the bomb ability. It has only one notable difference from the bomb ability; it does not deal any splash damage of any kind. This ability replaces the alchemist bomb ability that the character would get at level 1.

Opinions about this change of ability?

From this homebrewed ability, we quickly adapted certain existing discoveries that could be taken to augment this new ability, often only replacing the word “bomb” with poison and restricting their use with the “virulent poison” ability.

Example:
Acid Poison (Bomb): your poison deals acid damage.
Blinding Poison (Bomb): your poison Blinds enemy.
Madness Poison (Bomb): Deal wisdom damage with your poison
etc…

Another idea that he had was that his character would carry a cane/walking stick that would double as a blowgun. No big deal there. He also came up with the notion of being able to use this blowgun to shoot his extracts, potions & alchemical substance (you all see where this is going right?).

If he plays a small character, the blowgun dart only does 1 point of damage with a range of 20 feet. I can easily see him standing back in a fight, shooting his allies with “healing potion/infusion/extract darts”.

I’m also looking at some special weapons for him that would fit well with an alchemist or to replace the use of his blowgun to “shoot” his potions/infusions/extracts.

What is your opinion about that? Is it unbalancing or is it why didn't I think of that before?

If I recall correctly there was something called a “blood spike” from an Eberron Book. In short it was a throw-able teardrop shaped vial that the pointy end would break and discharged the liquid inside it when it pierced the skin of an opponent. Do you believe this would be a good option for him?

I’m also looking at allowing him to be proficient with the "alchemical blade", also found in an Eberron Book. It was a knife or a short sword with a space in the pummel that could be filled with an alchemical substance such as alchemist fire. When a trigger was pulled the substance would run along the grooves in the blade enflaming the blade for 1 attack (or was it 1 round). Would this weapon render him to powerful at lower levels?

Does anything else come to mind that would complement his character concept?

Constructive inputs and opinions are always welcomed.


I’ve just finished playing through the Curse of the Crimson Throne series with a magus. So with our GM’s extra “quest/background/story” add-on’s I’m just shy of my 20th level.

Arcane Pool :

At first level, the +1 enhancement off-sets the -2 of spell combat. However, the GM wasn’t so sure what to do with the other +1 that came from masterwork quality weapons. He simply ruled that one was a magical bonus and the other a material bonus. At higher levels I often used this ability to give me an edge in combat, allowing me to do greater damage against certain type of creatures. I was often reluctant to use this ability in every battle due to the cost.

Although a useful ability, in my opinion, it should resemble a bit more the Ki Pool of the Monk. What I mean, is that it should give a +1 enhancement bonus as long as there is 1 point remaining in the pool.

On the other hand, my GM thought it should allow the magus to enhance his weapon for a day, by writing temporary runes on it for example, which would only work for the magus of course.

Spell combat, Improved Spell Combat & Greater Spell Combat :

At lower levels those handy unlimited cantrips help out a bit, but their low damage/save DC made the spell useless half the time.

I really enjoyed playing this class ability when I got the “wand wielder” arcana. Later on, with a glove of storing, I was able to use the wand whenever I needed and switch to a two-handed hold on my dwarven waraxe at a moments notice (it’s fun to be a dwarf). A good wand of vampiric touch saved my bacon on more then one occasion.

The Greater version of this ability wasn’t very useful for me. I had maxed out my concentration check for casting defensively by the time I reached that level (traits : focus mind +2, combat casting +4, skill focus +3, improved spell combat +2 & skill points equal to my level = 11+lvl).

Spellstrike :

I used this quite often at certain levels rarely bothering to use spell combat in conjuncture with it. With touch spell allowing multiple touches (such as calcific touch) it was very useful.

However, the low quantity of such spells (especially on the magus spell list) didn’t make this ability worthwhile. My GM ruled that the magus was a touch spell specialist and must have a lot more touch spells in its list of spells. So he added/allowed a few touch spells from various books (such as the for mentioned calcific touch).

Magus Arcana :

3rd : Haste Assault : is very good for a dwaven magus and pretty frightening at higher level while wearing heavy armor. I used this ability quite often.

6th : Wand Wielder : as I mentioned before, a must have in my opinion.

9th : Reflection : or how to make the GM cry

12th : Dispelling Strike : costly, but pumping a couple of points in this is very worth while.

15th : Familiar : used the bonded object version on this one with a dwarven waraxe (yes I stayed with my concept of a dwarven axeman).

18th : at this level, I didn’t know what to take. In my opinion all those once per day abilities would be a waste of a good ability. So I took spell shield to gain that little edge in defence.

I loved the idea of this ability but it needs a few adjustments.

Pool Spell, Improved Pool Spell & Greater Pool Spell :

It would be more useful if the arcane pool was bigger at low levels, at higher levels it help a bit more, being able to cast that unprepared or spent spell once more.

The greater version was fun to have but would be more useful if it wasn’t at such a high cost.

Knowledge Pool :

Useful to get those spells you don’t have from your magus spell list, but a “meh” ability in my book. In a few levels I was able to get all magus spells.

My GM and I thought that this ability should give some other kind of bonus and our idea ranged from : skill bonuses, spell DC increase, add a spell from another spell list, concentration bonuses equal to half magus level, etc…

Fighter Training :

Barely used this ability since the ½ level differential didn’t help much to get fighter only feats.

Counterstrike :

Very fun to use. As soon as I was in melee range of an enemy caster, my GM hesitated to cast any spell at all. The GM allowed me to make AoO with spellstrike (a melee attack) and calcific touch or other multiple touch spell “active” it was devastating.

Overall, it’s a nice class.

It’s a high requirement class needing high ability scores from 2/3 of the 6 ability scores. The average BAB progression means that you need a good str or dex bonus to make your attack count. Aiming for a dervish style magus, as proposed by other board members, means that you lack the higher up class ability of the heavy armor (unless you can see a half-plated magus dancing around on the battlefield). Not to mention the 2 feats cost of weapon finesse and dervish dance while you’re at it. With a d8 in hp, you also need a good AC or a good constitution score to be in melee either to dodge those attacks or take the hit. Finally you need a decent intel bonus to get those extra spells per day and increase those DC’s.

My GM suggested giving it a bonus to AC and/or BAB equal to its Intelligence modifier.

He also proposed a variant of the class to aim for the arcane archer prestige class. Allowing most melee abilities, such as spell combat and spellstrike, to be placed on ranged weapons

I enjoyed playing that class and look forward to try the final version of the class when it comes out.


During our last gaming session ( a filler game between “Council of Thieves” 3 & 4, to introduce a players new character to replace the dead one. ), a question concerning my alchemists bombs came up :

“What are they and how do they affect DR (and other type of protective effects)?”

Some players said they were only alchemical devices and as such not magical. If so, then they would become less powerful at higher levels as they would be unable to overcome DR and other protective effect.

The GM & I said that it was a Supernatural Ability, going as far as stating that the alchemist puts a bit of his magical essence into the bomb. In that case, based on the general interpretation of a supernatural ability (PF 221), they can overcome SR.

However, there is no mention of a supernatural ability that can overcome DR.

So are they magical in nature and do they overcome DR?


I’ve been thinking this one over in my head for a while, and after 8 levels of playing an Alchemist in Council of Thieves I find that the number of formulae (or the number of “spells” he knows) is to low, greatly limiting his abilities in my opinion.

Combined with the fact that he has only a very limited number of formulae levels ( 1 through 6 ), a specialized Elixir Alchemist is greatly limited. In addition, his “spell-list” is derived mostly form the transmutation school ( which is understandable with the whole concept of drinking potions to create an effect ), but could also include certain other spells or a full formulae list ( 0 through 9 ).

That is why, in my opinion, certain other spells from different schools could be added to the alchemist spell list. Certain touch spell come into mind pretty quickly, adding a bit more offensive power to the alchemist who specialize in elixirs without changing the theme of the character.

For this post, I concentrate my selection of formulae with the “half” list ( 1 through 6 ), only adding the spells that aren’t already in the list. Spells from the list below are taken from Spell Compendium (WoTC), Relics & Rituals (Sword & Sorcery) & The Complete Book of Eldritch Might (Sword & Sorcery).

1st level
Mage armor (That should replace shield)
Hypnotism
Disappear
Acid Spittle
Shocking Grasp
Corrosive Grasp
Guided Shot
Insightful Feint
Blood Wind
Luminous Gaze
Babau Slime
Cutting Hand
Ebon Eyes
Fist of Stone
Aspect of the Wolf
Camouflage
Claws of the Bear
Embrace the Wild
Hawkeye
Lay of the Land
Scent
Surefoot
Beast Claws
Ram’s Might
Snowshoes
Ice Gauntlet

2nd Level
Frog Tongue
Assassin’s senses
Ghoul Touch
Fireburst
Frost Breath
Veil of Shadow
Shadow Mask
Death Armor
Wracking touch
Balor Nimbus
Belker Claws
Body of the Sun
Razorfangs
Speak with allies
Jagged Tooth
Blinding Spittle
Healing Sting

3rd Level
Contagion
Poison
Dragon’s Breath
Shadow touch
Vampiric touch
Acid Breath
Mage Armor – Greater
Nauseating Breath
Vipergout
Mesmerizing Gaze
Light of Venya
Sound Lance
Claws of Darkness
Mind Poison
Spider Poison
Bite of the Wererat
Dragonskin
Spiderskin
Tremorsense
Bottle of Smoke
Charge of the Triceratops
Blindsight
Clutch of Orcus
Corona of Cold

4th Level
Rusting Grasp
Shout
Thief of Spells
Treasure Scent
Dragon Breath
Bite of the Werewolf
Displacer Form
Flight of the Dragon
Sharptooth
Voice of the Dragon
Snakebite
Wild Runner
Panacea

5th Level
Gird the Warrior
Spines of Death
Indomitability
Acid Sheath
Fireburst – Greater
Shadow Form
Death Throes
Night’s Caress
Bite of the Wereboar
Draconic Might
Elarge Person – Greater
Fiendform
Nightstalker’s Transformation
Reduce Person – Greater

6th Level
Belsameth’s Blessing
Resistance – Superior
Fires of Purity
Aura of Terror
Opalescent Glare
Spectral Touch
Bite of the Weretiger
Cloak of the Sea
Stone Body
IronGuard
Hiss of Sleep
Emerald Flame Fist
Evil Glare
Kiss of the Vampire
Bite of the Werebear


With the help of my GM I’ve been playtesting the alchemist up to level 8 in the AP : Council of Thieves part 1, 2 & 3. After each gaming session my group would talk about the game we just played and talk about the class. In my free time, I’ve read what other playtesters had to say about the class in the forum. Here are the further opinions of my group for the class and what change we did while we played.

As an Alchemist you can, or should be able with the help of feats and/or discoveries to specialize in :

Bombs
With all the type of bombs to choose from in the Discoveries, there should be no problem here. However, my group thought of some other type of bombs to be added to the list such as Bombs that alter the terrain : fire-wall bombs, isolation sphere bombs, grease bombs & web bombs.

We also talked about some bomb specific discoveries such as : allow a bombs to ricochet off surfaces before detonating, increase range of the bomb (throwing and radius wise), increase damage die, multiple throwing of bombs, etc...

Add a few feats that would help out with bombs, such as : Extra Bombs, shape splash/selective splash, etc...

Mutagens
We discovered that the series of discoveries for mutagen was missing a few discoveries to allow a “specialization”. There are 4 mutagen discoveries (not including the grand discovery) out of 7 discovery “slots”.

My group thought about this and we came to the conclusion that there should be more discoveries for mutagens. After thinking about it we came up with these ideas : An improve or greater feral mutagen, which improved claw/bite damage, rend/pounce/scent ability and any other “feral induced” change that comes up to mind. Mutagens that allow environmental and/or energy adaptations (think endure element/energy resistance). Mutagens that could alter you physically, giving you greater abilities, such as a swim, climb, burrow, fly or greater land speed. Or grow a tail, another set of arms, horns, darkvison, chameleon abilities, etc…

We also discussed the Charisma damage a lot. This aspect of the mutagen is a big drawback as it should be, but we believe that it should become temporary damage that ends when the mutagen ends. If not, you’re either using your Elixirs (yes plurals since you can roll a 4 on your Cha damage and a 1 on your restoration roll) to repair the damage you’ve done to yourself. Or another spell-caster can spend his resources to restore you to your normal charismatic self. Another option is to buy a wand of restoration (lesser) for 4.500 gp, which in itself is not a bad thing and use it to fix the problem. Potions could be a good option too for only 300 gp.

So with all the trouble this gave us after 3 games, we changed for the temporary ability damage.

We talked about giving another ability damage ( Int. or Wis )while the mutagen is in effect and adding other “use per day” for every 5 class level.

Elixirs
1 feat that should be added to discoveries for an Elixirs specialist is the “Master Craftsman” feat that would allow the creation of potions or at least an ability to create potions like the “brew potion” feat. Players won be brewing potions constantly simply due to the cost and time restriction (just like you don’t see a spellcaster spending all his free time creating magical devices for the entire party)

We also discussed the Formulae list, which we would bring certain change. In our playtest we changed “shield” with “mage armor”, since mage armor fits more with the idea of an alchemist altering himself than creating an invisible floating disc in front of himself (yes we know that the duration is different).

We also enlarged the Formulae list with spells found in other books such as Spell Compendium (a post will soon be added)

Alchemically created devices & poisons

More Discoveries that increased the DC of Alchemical Items and or Poison

Discoveries

With all our ideas with discoveries, we came up with the idea of having a lesser discovery at every 3rd level and a greater discovery at every 5th level


Playtesting the Alchemist

After playing an alchemist from level 1 to level 8, I can clearly see the potential that this class has. The few things that my GM and I would change are minor at best.

Weapon & Armor Proficiency:
We added the Alchemy Blade (an exotic weapon from Magic of Eberron) to the list of weapon proficiency of the alchemist.

Alchemy:
After a while we discovered that the basic DC of most alchemical items are good at low-level but begin to be less challenging as the opponents encountered are of higher level. We played around with an increase in the save DC as part of the Alchemy class ability ( a +1 DC at every odd level or at every 3rd level ). We also tried a +1 DC per +2 craft DC increase of the base item created. This caused alchemical items to still be useful at higher levels.

We also tried increasing the damage output of alchemical items ( by increasing the damage die : 1d6 to 1d8 & etc. or doubling the damage die : 1d6 = 2d6 ) but found it overbalancing as a class ability. We are now thinking of using feats ( as seen for the sneak attack damage increase in the “Swashbuckling adventures campaign setting rulebook”) or as a Discovery class ability.

Throw Anything:
We thought of adding a few other feats as class abilities or as basic feats, such as :
• Quick Draw : keyed to alchemical items only
• Far Shot : keyed to alchemical items only
• Shape Splash ( Races of Eberron ) : Removing the racial requirements
• Grenadier ( D&D Players Handbook II )
• Mad Alchemist ( D&D Players Handbook II )
• Exceptional Artisan ( Eberron Campaign Setting ) : keyed to alchemical items only
• Extraordinary Artisan ( Eberron Campaign Setting ) keyed to alchemical items only
• Extra Bombs : like any “extra (insert class ability)” feat

Mutagen:
We believed that the Charisma penalty was more like a “Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde” kind of thing and as such is only temporary. Especially since it can be cancelled pretty quickly with an extract We also thought of having Wisdom penalties to play more into that role with the mutagen giving a rush of power and over-confidence lowering your overall judgment.

We also thought about scaling the ability & AC bonus with the level-ing of the class giving the mutagen a more interesting appeal for the player.

We didn't believe that the 1 hour creation time was overpowering since, unless a discovery is used, characters don't usually have the time to set up camp for 1 hour in the middle of a monster infested area (think about doing that in Foxglove Mansion or the Black Arrow Fort in Rise of the Runelords). Any good GM would RP something about the smell of the concoctions attracting the residents, a simple patrol or something else to disturb the creation process, etc...

But if the alchemist has the time, then go ahead and while some other PC is out getting information, confronting an impromptu encounter and advancing the plot, let him stay in his room make a mutagen that he might not even use that day.

Bombs
After encountering several :

"I can't use my class ability because : A) I might hit my allies. B) It's a full round action and I can't get there in time."

We switch for an ability usable once a round that is considered a standard action & that can provoke an attack of opportunity.

We also played around with the idea of a skill check if the alchemist is ever hit in combat while using a bomb just like a spell-caster. This brought up the idea of a potential "blow up in your face scenario" (that our GM loved).

Extracts
Using an extract in combat is pretty dangerous and losing a few rounds to "buff-up" before hand is the downside of playing an alchemist. We ruled a Quick Draw feat resolved the problem of pulling out an extract, while drinking it swiftly was something else.

We played again with a skill check just as a spell-caster would normally do to "cast" his spell. And allowed the use of "Bloodspikes" : a needle-like vial that injects alchemical substances directly into the user of the item (Magic Of Eberron)

We also discussed the idea of being able to delay an extract after it is consumed.

Alchemist Formulae:
Since the Formulae are supposed to alter/augment the alchemist physically, we replaced Shield with Mage Armor believing that it would affect the alchemist’s aura or his skin, augmenting his AC, not create a floating invisible shield before him.

We also thought about adding Formulae based on touch spell or some “breath” spell found in Spell Compendium.

Alchemical Items:
Most of our after game discussions concerned the lack of alchemical items. So at each game, many of the other players and the GM ended up bringing copies of D20 RPG books with alchemical items and items for alchemist in general, which my group hopes, will be at least looked at by the game designers before the end of the BETA playtest.

The series of Ultimate Equipment Guide by Mongoose Publishing, contains a wealth of alchemical items that can emulate certain fun spells ( ex: Tripvine = Web spell ). It also contains the many “Quick(energy type)” oils that can be applied to weapons for a short while.

The Eberron Campaign Books also have many interesting alchemical items.

These are personal opinions of my gaming group and are up for constructive debate.


Playtesting the Alchemist

After playing an alchemist from level 1 to level 8, I can clearly see the potential that this class has. The few things that my GM and I would change are minor at best.

Weapon & Armor Proficiency:
We added the Alchemy Blade (an exotic weapon from Magic of Eberron) to the list of weapon proficiency of the alchemist.

Alchemy:
After a while we discovered that the basic DC of most alchemical items are good at low-level but begin to be less challenging as the opponents encountered are of higher level. We played around with an increase in the save DC as part of the Alchemy class ability ( a +1 DC at every odd level or at every 3rd level ). We also tried a +1 DC per +2 craft DC increase of the base item created. This caused alchemical items to still be useful at higher levels.

We also tried increasing the damage output of alchemical items ( by increasing the damage die : 1d6 to 1d8 & etc. or doubling the damage die : 1d6 = 2d6 ) but found it overbalancing as a class ability. We are now thinking of using feats ( as seen for the sneak attack damage increase in the “Swashbuckling adventures campaign setting rulebook”) or as a Discovery class ability.

Throw Anything:
We thought of adding a few other feats as class abilities or as basic feats, such as :
• Far Shot : keyed to alchemical items only
• Shape Splash ( Races of Eberron ) : Removing the racial requirements
• Grenadier ( D&D Players Handbook II )
• Mad Alchemist ( D&D Players Handbook II )
• Exceptional Artisan ( Eberron Campaign Setting ) : keyed to alchemical items only
• Extraordinary Artisan ( Eberron Campaign Setting ) keyed to alchemical items only
• Extra Bombs : like any “extra (insert class ability)” feat

Mutagen:
We believed that the Charisma penalty was more like a “Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde” kind of thingand as such is only temporary. We also thought of having Wisdom penalties to play more into that role with the mutagen giving a rush of power and over-confidence lowering your overall judgement.

Alchemist Formulae:
Since the Formulae are supposed to alter/augment the alchemist physically, we replaced Shield with Mage Armor believing that it would affect the alchemist’s aura or his skin, augmenting his AC, not create a floating invisible shield before him.

We also thought about adding Formulae based on touch spell or some “breath” spell found in Spell Compendium.

Alchemical Items:
Most of our after game discussions concerned the lack of alchemical items. So at each game, many of the other players and the GM ended up bringing copies of D20 RPG books with alchemical items and items for alchemist in general, which my group hopes, will be at least looked at by the game designers before the end of the BETA playtest.

The series of Ultimate Equipment Guide by Mongoose Publishing, contains a wealth of alchemical items that can emulate certain fun spells ( ex: Tripvine = Web spell ). It also contains the many “Quick(energy type)” oils that can be applied to weapons for a short while.

The Eberron Campaign Books also have many interesting alchemical items.

These are personal opinions of my gaming group and are up for constructive debate.