Bad witch! No touchy! (A playtest report)

[Kirth Gersen]

Piety Godfury wrote:

I was just pointing out that "Hey Hot Witch (called a -Witch-) in the Bible.

That's an excellent point, and one that is well-taken. The phrasing (no doubt inadvetent, in retrospect) implying that the Bible was the original source of the witch concept is what unfotunately set me off.

Hot witches, though? You'll get no argument from me on that point.

[Exiled Prince]

Reckless wrote:

Any chance of an actual (Paizo) response to this problem, rather than all the nonsensical side issues? Or is this a "feature" in PC talk?

I thought the whole point of quantifying abilities as Extraordinary, Spell-Like, or Supernatural was so that you could just go Ability (Su) in a stat block and know what rules to follow. Now it's like Ability (Su*)

* may not actually follow Supernatural Abilities rules, you'll have to look this up on a case by case basis, or consult Sebastian.

I agree.

And to get back to the original post,
I think he had a good point about the Hex that lets you join a coven. That should be a class feature.
I feel that the writers have dropped the ball somewhat on Pathfinder. In point the sorcerer.
Why can one sorcerer that gains wings fly all day when one from another bloodline can use them only for a short time??

[Petrus222]

RE the hex provoking an AoO, could you charge your touch attack in the prior round (and then step in to deliver it in the next round?

[Draeke Raefel]

I'd just make an touch attack hexes not provokes aoo as that seems to be standard with touch attacks. All spell melee touch attacks prevent aoo.

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

Exiled Prince wrote:

Reckless wrote:

Any chance of an actual (Paizo) response to this problem, rather than all the nonsensical side issues? Or is this a "feature" in PC talk?

I thought the whole point of quantifying abilities as Extraordinary, Spell-Like, or Supernatural was so that you could just go Ability (Su) in a stat block and know what rules to follow. Now it's like Ability (Su*)

* may not actually follow Supernatural Abilities rules, you'll have to look this up on a case by case basis, or consult Sebastian.

I agree.

And to get back to the original post,
I think he had a good point about the Hex that lets you join a coven. That should be a class feature.
I feel that the writers have dropped the ball somewhat on Pathfinder. In point the sorcerer.
Why can one sorcerer that gains wings fly all day when one from another bloodline can use them only for a short time??

Because flight is generally hunted with a nerf-bat because it's too useful for combat, but the nerf-bat instead just makes it only useful for combat. So the idea of witches flying off to the Sabbat is no longer possible, because the Fly spell is now useless outside of combat.

[Abraham spalding]

Exiled Prince wrote:

...

I feel that the writers have dropped the ball somewhat on Pathfinder. In point the sorcerer.
Why can one sorcerer that gains wings fly all day when one from another bloodline can use them only for a short time??

Somebody hasn't been reading the class features fully:

The Dragon gets flight at 15th level permanently (average)...
The Air Elemental gets flight at 15th level permanently (average)...
The Celestial gets flight at 6th level with limited use and unlimited use at 20th level (Good)...
Then the infernal gets flight at 15th level permanently (average)

As you can see all the bloodlines with flight get it permanently, however those with average maneuverability get it later but with longer duration sooner than the one that gets it with good maneuverability.

However they all get permanent usage at some point.

[Exiled Prince]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Exiled Prince wrote:

...

I feel that the writers have dropped the ball somewhat on Pathfinder. In point the sorcerer.
Why can one sorcerer that gains wings fly all day when one from another bloodline can use them only for a short time??

Somebody hasn't been reading the class features fully:

The Dragon gets flight at 15th level permanently (average)...
The Air Elemental gets flight at 15th level permanently (average)...
The Celestial gets flight at 6th level with limited use and unlimited use at 20th level (Good)...
Then the infernal gets flight at 15th level permanently (average)

As you can see all the bloodlines with flight get it permanently, however those with average maneuverability get it later but with longer duration sooner than the one that gets it with good maneuverability.

However they all get permanent usage at some point.

Ah!!!!

[ketrava]

sorry miss quoted first time

Reckless wrote:

Any chance of an actual (Paizo) response to this problem, rather than all the nonsensical side issues? Or is this a "feature" in PC talk?

I thought the whole point of quantifying abilities as Extraordinary, Spell-Like, or Supernatural was so that you could just go Ability (Su) in a stat block and know what rules to follow. Now it's like Ability (Su*)

* may not actually follow Supernatural Abilities rules, you'll have to look this up on a case by case basis, or consult Sebastian.

Dear god THIS THIS THIS!!! Please paizo don't become wizards where every single rule must be double checked every single time because each version of the same thing works differently.

I really think that the hexs should be stronger in the scales with level aspect and have range. I think the evil curses should be a little more scary sounding like the curse from the movie thinner. I do also think that the curses should come with a flipable version for each one that cant be used at the same time I.E. goodluck charm/evil eye being one choice.

I hope this makes it to being posted my ideas on redoing the summoner because he reminds me more of the alienist class than a summoner vanished into the oblivion.

Witch has a distinct European meaning that is different from Greek legends.

[TheAuldGrump]

Hey! The Biblical Witch of Endor was downright grandmotherly! (Ye cads, she basically told King Saul 'you're too skinny, you need to eat more.'

As for European witches... when it came to burning they really didn't seem to care whether the witch was male or female - both fed the flames. And as for King James... do not get me started on King James.

The AoO does seem a bit much - it takes a good deal of the fun out of the class, and other classes can do similar things without provoking an attack. (Hit it! Mr Bard!)

The Auld Grump, and Pratchett's witches are wonderful. :)

[Mnemaxa]

It is an old trope that witches mark their victims in some manner - usually by using their fingernails to cut them. Would the witch still provoke an AoO with the Unarmed Combat feat even when using a touch attack hex? Hexes, as a general rule, are often not as potent as many touch attack spells, and touch attack spells do not provoke.

I can see why they use it - touch attacks are potent, and there is almost no defense other than distance - even at low levels, a touch attack is going to get through almsot any AC 50% of the time, even against creatures with a much higher CR rating....but the spells can still do the same.

[Chris Kenney]

Touch abilities provoking an AoO by itself breaks an assumption (Touch attacks don't provoke under most circumstances because the threat has to be taken too seriously to consider it leaving yourself open.) I know there have been exceptions to this in the past, though they escape me right now. But balancing an entire class on an exception is, at best, very strange and doesn't seem to be a worthwhile tradeoff in this case.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

The Witch of Endor?

[Dissinger]

I believe its been universally accepted that the touch attack doesn't provoke, and everyone is treating it as a spell touch attack. The idea is SOME kind of energy has to be infusing that hand, and any warrior worth their salt is going to stay far away from that hand, rather than lean into it to try and get a swing.

[TheAuldGrump]

Endora?

Actually 1 Samuel 28:7-20.... (Yes, I had to look it up.)

The Auld Grump

[Clark Whittle]

I can understand the need for the Witch to have touch attacks (from a cool concept perspective) and I hope some of them stay as such, but I agree that they need to have ranged hexes as well. As has been mentioned above, there are simply too many rolls that need to go your way to pull it off effectively, putting the Witch at grave risk. I also agree with having the Witch's hexes be classified as supernatural abilities for the sake of not provoking attacks of opportunity. Imo, the witch personifies supernatural more than any other class so I was surprised to see this.

While I really love the basic concept and flavor of this class, I feel the hexes as written are a bit underpowered, and not a fair trade off for having a much more limited spell list than a wizard. Maybe this could be balanced by offering a mid-BAB progression and the ability to wear light, non-metal armor ala Druid? This would be a perfect fit, not just for balance, but from a concept perspective as well.

In all fairness to the developers, however, the vast majority of the groundwork laid out for these new classes looks exceptional and I had to remind myself that the core classes have had a decade of playtesting to get to their current state of balance. My BIGGEST hope is that Paizo doesn't rush the playtest. I'd rather see the APG come out a bit later with more tweaking and more of the balance kinks worked out. We all know that the end product will be worth the wait. :)

[Lokie]

Clark Whittle wrote:

I can understand the need for the Witch to have touch attacks (from a cool concept perspective) and I hope some of them stay as such, but I agree that they need to have ranged hexes as well. As has been mentioned above, there are simply too many rolls that need to go your way to pull it off effectively, putting the Witch at grave risk. I also agree with having the Witch's hexes be classified as supernatural abilities for the sake of not provoking attacks of opportunity. Imo, the witch personifies supernatural more than any other class so I was surprised to see this.

While I really love the basic concept and flavor of this class, I feel the hexes as written are a bit underpowered, and not a fair trade off for having a much more limited spell list than a wizard. Maybe this could be balanced by offering a mid-BAB progression and the ability to wear light, non-metal armor ala Druid? This would be a perfect fit, not just for balance, but from a concept perspective as well.

In all fairness to the developers, however, the vast majority of the groundwork laid out for these new classes looks exceptional and I had to remind myself that the core classes have had a decade of playtesting to get to their current state of balance. My BIGGEST hope is that Paizo doesn't rush the playtest. I'd rather see the APG come out a bit later with more tweaking and more of the balance kinks worked out. We all know that the end product will be worth the wait. :)

Odd... interesting

• Blight = Touch (but is suited for a plot of land)
• Cackle gives a range of 30 feet
• Cauldron is item creation
• Charm is "beckoning and soothing words" which implies it can be done at range
• Disguise is self
• Evil Eye gives a range of 30 feet
• Fortune is touch (but is a buff)
• Healing is touch but noncombative
• Misfortune is touch
• Slumber is touch

So of the list of lesser hexes, only 3 really run into the issue of worry as touch attacks. Blight is not really suited as a "combat" hex, Misfortune is... interesting, and Slumber seems better to do after Charming the enemy when it is least expecting it.

Am I wrong?

[Frerezar]

The way I see it, the witch´s ontribution to combat comes from her spells, that´s where their main arsenal is. However the hexes being at will seem to be ade mostly for social circumstances or non combat situations in general.Just my opinion thou.

[Galnörag]

Frerezar wrote:

The way I see it, the witch´s ontribution to combat comes from her spells, that´s where their main arsenal is. However the hexes being at will seem to be ade mostly for social circumstances or non combat situations in general.Just my opinion thou.

I don't know the slumber, healing, evil eye, retribution, misfortune, fortune and ward are all mega combat hexes (just plucking from memory.)

Retribution, slap that puppy on the tarasque and laugh.

[Malachi Tarchannen]

Oh, another question about the witch...

Do we have to play this class on a hexboard, or can we still use our 1-inch squares?

[Galnörag]

Malachi Tarchannen wrote:

Oh, another question about the witch...

Do we have to play this class on a hexboard, or can we still use our 1-inch squares?

Thread won

[Whited Sepulcher]

Galnörag wrote:

Malachi Tarchannen wrote:

Oh, another question about the witch...

Do we have to play this class on a hexboard, or can we still use our 1-inch squares?

Thread won

Heh, nice. That made want to put the link up...

'Hooray for Hexes!!'

Back on topic, I agree with the need to have some ranges for the hexes.

[Skizzy]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

The Witch of Endor?

Yeah you didn't see that in Return of the Jedi?

Lokie wrote:

Clark Whittle wrote:

I can understand the need for the Witch to have touch attacks (from a cool concept perspective) and I hope some of them stay as such, but I agree that they need to have ranged hexes as well. As has been mentioned above, there are simply too many rolls that need to go your way to pull it off effectively, putting the Witch at grave risk. I also agree with having the Witch's hexes be classified as supernatural abilities for the sake of not provoking attacks of opportunity. Imo, the witch personifies supernatural more than any other class so I was surprised to see this.

While I really love the basic concept and flavor of this class, I feel the hexes as written are a bit underpowered, and not a fair trade off for having a much more limited spell list than a wizard. Maybe this could be balanced by offering a mid-BAB progression and the ability to wear light, non-metal armor ala Druid? This would be a perfect fit, not just for balance, but from a concept perspective as well.

In all fairness to the developers, however, the vast majority of the groundwork laid out for these new classes looks exceptional and I had to remind myself that the core classes have had a decade of playtesting to get to their current state of balance. My BIGGEST hope is that Paizo doesn't rush the playtest. I'd rather see the APG come out a bit later with more tweaking and more of the balance kinks worked out. We all know that the end product will be worth the wait. :)

Odd... interesting

• Blight = Touch (but is suited for a plot of land)
• Cackle gives a range of 30 feet
• Cauldron is item creation
• Charm is "beckoning and soothing words" which implies it can be done at range
• Disguise is self
• Evil Eye gives a range of 30 feet
• Fortune is touch (but is a buff)
• Healing is touch but noncombative
• Misfortune is touch
• Slumber is touch

So of the list of lesser hexes, only 3 really run into the issue of worry as touch attacks. Blight is not really suited as a "combat" hex,...

You make an interesting point.

Slumber would better balance the class if it were a ranged ability however.

I argue this on the side that the witch in Wizard of Oz was able to do such an effect through her seeing crystal.

And some other games I've seen have used such ability at a distance.
Last Chaos Witch for example.

[Lokie]

Skizzy wrote:

You make an interesting point.

Slumber would better balance the class if it were a ranged ability however.

I argue this on the side that the witch in Wizard of Oz was able to do such an effect through her seeing crystal.

And some other games I've seen have used such ability at a distance.
Last Chaos Witch for example.

I'll agree that slumber would make a good "power word" kind of hex. "Sleep Now" and wave your hand at them.