Possession and Hit Die

[iGMYT]

Hi all

Can I get some clarification on the Possession rules, specifically regarding Hit Die?

The Possession rules make clear that the body retains its hit points.
However, the rules never mention “Hit Die” for either side.

So my question is, do you count as having your original HD or the HD of the creature you are possessing?
For example, what happens if you are hit by Colour or Prismatic Spray?

[OmniMage]

Well, the spell does say that you keep your level, class, and base save bonuses. So the impression I get is you use your level (or hit dice) and saves, but you use the body's hit points.

[OmniMage]

I have a question. It says in the spell description that its possible for your body to die while you are possessing someone else. Is there anyway to revive your body so you don't die after the possession spell ends?

[iGMYT]

OmniMage wrote:

Well, the spell does say that you keep your level, class, and base save bonuses. So the impression I get is you use your level (or hit dice) and saves, but you use the body's hit points.

Hi OmniMage.

Thank you for your reply.
“Level” and HD aren’t one and the same, as you can have more HD than levels (eg. Monsters with class levels).
So because the spell says you retain your level, doesn’t mean you retain your HD.

[iGMYT]

OmniMage wrote:

I have a question. It says in the spell description that its possible for your body to die while you are possessing someone else. Is there anyway to revive your body so you don't die after the possession spell ends?

That’s a good question. How can you Raise Dead on your corpse if your soul is currently busy possessing someone?

My guess is that the raise dead spell would fail until you stopped possessing and were truly dead

[OmniMage]

Well, the best plan is to have a friend that can cast resurrection on you. Convince them to cast it after your spell ends and you pass on (you can dismiss it at any time).

My current best idea (for a do it yourself solution) is to use a clone spell. The clone can wait preserved until your soul is free and willing to return to life. Best to prepare it in advance cause its going to take at least a few months to grow. The downside is its an 8th level spell, so by the time you can cast it, you can cast greater possession and avoid leaving a body behind that could be killed in the first place.

The next best bet would be to use a contingency spell followed by what ever resurrection spell you got. Since wizards don't get resurrection magic, you would need some use magic device ranks and a scroll with whatever resurrection spell you can get.

[OmniMage]

This one is perhaps the most obvious, but has a great risk of failure, is keep possessing people so you don't die. You need to be able to cast the spell 2 to 3 times a day (whatever amount that will give you enough time to prepare your spells each day). Each time you cast the spell, there is a risk of failure. Even if you manage to find someone with an abysmal will score, there is still the 5% risk of automatic failure. I don't think failing a possession roll will cause your current possession spell to end, but it will cost you a spell slot you are in short supply of.

Perhaps your best bet is to find a willing host that will willingly fail their will save so you don't have to worry about automatic failure. You probably have to pay them something in exchange for this service. You can communicate with your host at any time.

Uncooperative hosts are risky, especially if you by pass some of your traps and security while possessing their body. They get to see and hear everything you do with their body, so they might remember you saying a password or pushing a hidden button.

[willuwontu]

OmniMage wrote:

Each time you cast the spell, there is a risk of failure.

Nah, just use Esoterum on your victim first.

[iGMYT]

Can we circle back to the Hit Die issue?

It has been suggested to me that because the spell doesn’t specifically call out that either you or the body retain your hit die, that it is assumed that you keep yours.
This feels counter intuitive to me as this means a Shadow Demon could possess a Balor and make it susceptible to Circle of Death.

[Diego Rossi]

Magic Jar/Possession was discussed at length in Occult adventures: Possession, but I haven't seen anything there about HD.
They refer back to Magic Jar.
Magic Jar only speaks of hit points.

As we have no RAW text, we have to fall back to logic.

What happens if the body's HDs change?
The constitution bonus to hp changes. And that will change the total hp.
That is a clear point for "the body keeps its original HDs".

Magic Jar doesn't say that the target HDs are replaced by your levels, or that your levels are added to the HDs. So, apparently, the two values are kept separated.

The Circle of Death example. That is a nice corundum.
What is targeting CoD?
It is a Necromancy spell, so it can target either the body or the soul.
RAW both Necromantic and Death spell attack the target "life force", something not well defined. But Magic Jar says: "If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar."
Based on that text the caster life force is the target of Circle of Death, not the target body.

Considering all the above, my ruling will be:
- for things that affect the body, the possessed creature HDs are used;
- for things that affect the life force/soul, the possessor's HDs/levels are used.

It is my personal take, not an official rule, but it is the one that best reflects my playstyle.

So, for the Circle of Deat example, the Shadow Demon life force will be shuffled (without returning into the Magic Jar), the Balor body will stay alive but empty. If it is still alive and in range, at the end of the spell the Balor life force will return to it. If some other entity has taken control of it in the meantime, some kind of mental battle for domination could ensue, depending on how the other creature did take control of the body.

[iGMYT]

Thank you Diego Rossi. That’s how I’d want to rule it too.

I’ve now been shown the Familiar rules which prove that you can have hit points independent of hit die, so there is precedent that we can’t assume we’d get them during Possession.

What adds more fuel to this confusing fire is something Redditors have pointed out: the spell doesn’t say that you count as having anything that the body retains.
- so if you have the power attack feat and possess something with strength 11, could you still power attack because it looks at your strength and not the body’s?
- likewise, if you had used a belt of strength to qualify for the power attack feat but then lost the belt and so have an inactive feat, when you possess a creature with strength 20 would you still not be able to use your feat because “you” still don’t qualify?

In essence should we simply view Possession as sort of like a Dominate Monster where you control the creature in first person?

[Diego Rossi]

You use the creature's physical stats, so your physical feats (and skills) should be influenced by them.

[OmniMage]

Ah, some context. Yes, I agree that the Shadow Demon should be the target for Circle of Death, not the Balor. The Balor isn't a valid target for the spell, and its being is all there. Mind, body, and soul. Just some of it is suppressed for the time being. But the Shadow Demon's soul is there (and arguably its body too given it would be a Greater Possession spell that was used). I can't find anything in the spells involved that says this, but I think its a logical outcome.

I was thinking of other spells, and what if Dominate Monster was cast instead of Circle of Death? Would it not be the Shadow Demon be the target and not the Balor? The Balor wouldn't work because its not in control at the moment. The Shadow Demon would be the desired target, even if the caster didn't know it was in control at the time. Nothing in the Possession spell says it'd be deflected to the possessed being.

[willuwontu]

There's always the fun Possession rules.

The most relevant of which I think is:

Quote:

The possessor uses her skill ranks, along with any feats the possessor has for which she still qualifies in the host’s body. The possessor doesn’t gain any of the host’s feats or skill ranks, but does apply bonuses and penalties associated with the host’s body. For example, when attempting Fly checks, a character who possessed a bird would use her own ranks in the Fly skill, but the bird’s Dexterity modifier and racial, size, and maneuverability bonuses.

How I read that, you still use your own statistics for determining your abilities, and only modify their bonuses based on the physical characteristics of the host.

[Diego Rossi]

OmniMage wrote:

Ah, some context. Yes, I agree that the Shadow Demon should be the target for Circle of Death, not the Balor. The Balor isn't a valid target for the spell, and its being is all there. Mind, body, and soul. Just some of it is suppressed for the time being. But the Shadow Demon's soul is there (and arguably its body too given it would be a Greater Possession spell that was used). I can't find anything in the spells involved that says this, but I think its a logical outcome.

I was thinking of other spells, and what if Dominate Monster was cast instead of Circle of Death? Would it not be the Shadow Demon be the target and not the Balor? The Balor wouldn't work because its not in control at the moment. The Shadow Demon would be the desired target, even if the caster didn't know it was in control at the time. Nothing in the Possession spell says it'd be deflected to the possessed being.

Magic Jar wrote:

You possess the body and force the creature's soul into the magic jar unless the subject succeeds on a Will save.

Possession wrote:

If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body. The host’s soul is imprisoned with you, but can still use its own senses (though it can’t assert any influence or use even purely mental abilities).

With Possession, both souls/lifeforces are in the same body.

With Magic Jar the possessed soul/lifeforce is in the jar.

[OmniMage]

I'm not sure why you are correcting me. I am aware of the differences between magic jar, possession, and greater possession. I think I stated them correctly.

[Diego Rossi]

OmniMage wrote:

I'm not sure why you are correcting me. I am aware of the differences between magic jar, possession, and greater possession. I think I stated them correctly.

I am not correcting you, simply adding to your post.

Several posts (or at least mine) speak of both spells as the Possession rules suggest replacing the Magic Jar SLA with the Possession SLA for several monsters, so I think it is important to underline this big difference between the two.

[OmniMage]

Okay, never mind then.

[iGMYT]

I’m beginning to see Possession as “puppetry from within”.

You can make your puppet do a Power Attack, so long as the puppet has the strength for it and you have the knowledge (the feat) of how to do it.

The puppet is still not “you” though, so anything that requires something of you that is not a physical action targets you rather than the body.
So things like Deific Obedience would look at your HD rather than the HD of the body you are inhabiting. Your deity isn’t fooled!

Effects on a Possessed person are interesting because it depends how they are targeting. The host has been suppressed, but still can use their senses… so Colour Spray and Prismatic Spray should affect them. Magic Jar would actually be better for the host in this instance, since they would be elsewhere.

This has been really interesting! Thank you all for your help with this!