TheGentlemanDM wrote:
Pretty much this. We have hit the point, as I stated in other threads in the Magus sub forum, that without any further input we are basically talking in circles. That said we all should be setting this post by TheGentlemanDM as a favorite and try to up-vote all posts like it asking for feedback on our feedback to help try and get the message through to the DEV team.
kripdenn wrote:
You miss that the spell attack would also use the martial prof. So your looking at +1 stat and +2 prof. That actually helps quite a bit.
Unicore wrote:
I think it is a discussion that needs to happen regardless of the point in play testing. Since the beginning many have voiced the opinion that the magus seems to be somewhat disjointed like a really bad dual class rather than a single class that blends the facets of martial and arcane together. Moving the primary stat to Int has many benefits and combined with the martial proficiency helps to present a blend and not a martial class with some arcane tricks bolted on. Give a magus a melee strike option that lets them use the martial proficiency with Int stat to discharge a striking spell and you end up with a martial who excels at what he should be doing (using his core class feature) and is still passable at normal attacks. Do the same for the spell attack roll on a discharge (note still two rolls) and you end up with a caster who is good (but not better than a full caster) at using his core class feature and passable to less than passable in hard casting spells. This gives you a blend of martial and arcane that works better together and makes it seem like a whole class.
I can not understand why the magus is a Str primary class when even the investigator gets Int to attacks via devise stratagem and has class abilities that key off of getting Int to attacks yet the magus is left with a massive split in Stat requirements. If you want to make a hybrid martial caster then Use your weapon Proficiency and casting stat to make an attack. It just seems cleaner and more thematically sound IMO.
It's a complex mechanic in that it allows for multiple instances of the same ability ( attack trait and no attack trait) and pushes off negative effects in some of those cases (the spell has the attack trait). I can not think of another PF2E mechanic that is complicated this way. Because of this the formatting of abilities which they try to keep standardized needs to be tweaked some to avoid table confusion for how it operates. I can see PFS tables being wildly inconsistent with this mechanic if it is not spelled out more clearly. Remember it's not the good GM's that need the clarification but the bad ones, so over explaining something does take up book real estate but is worth it in some cases. I still have issue with my GM who is a former venture captain with over 250 PF1 and 250 starfinder tables about things being immune to crits still taking increased effect from striking spell and persistent damage from produce flame.
Nyhme wrote:
Spirit sheath let’s you pull a weapon as part of a striking spell cast. So turn 1 looks like: - free striking spell- 2 action cast (pull weapon + stride if sliding magus) - stride or strike or magus potency or runic impression In play turn 1 hasn’t been as big of a crunch as I expected at low levels. High levels may get worse.
Temperans wrote:
The warmagi from Terry Mancour’s spellmonger series fits rather well for prepared caster having to “hang” spells on themselves before a fight for quick use.
The best Gish main class I have ever played was the D&D 3.5 Duskblade out of the PHB2. I loved that class and how it functions. I still play it with a group who still runs 3.5. If I could have a direct port of any class that’s it. The PF2E magus is close. Martial, HP, saves are all spot on. Unlimited cantrips in PF are great. Give me a spontaneous version and address the accuracy issues with spell attacks and I am all good.
I imagine the magus not as a fighter/wizard dual class, not as someone who cast spells and swings swords but as someone who casts spells BY swinging his sword. Wizards trace runes and glyphs in the air as their somatic component, where as the magus builds tracing those glyphs and runes with the point of his sword like a conductor directing a symphony. This movement built in and modified to his sword dance or kata to confuse the opponent into an opening leading strike. This delivers the blow and when the tip of his blade is buried he unleashes the spell inside his opponent for maximum effect. After all, the best way to deal with your opponents defenses is to be inside of them.
Initial perception: I did not like the action economy. and thought there would be problems. After testing: The action economy is a minor problem but is still a problem. I am running through the slithering at level 5, 6 now, and I am constantly out damaged by the ranger with his animal companion and twin take down. But worst of all is the throwing multiple d20's on an attack. I have one for the initial, one for the spell, and one for evaluating strike recall knowledge roll which is the only 1 action strike we have other than the base, and rather vanilla and unfun, strike action. it would be nice if we had some 1 action attack feats that thematically play to the concept of blending martial and arcane strikes.
The more I try and build a shooting star magus the more I think it's just not good as a synthesis. As a lvl 2 class feat it works well especially given the range restrictions. Thematically slide casting and thrown weapons with shooting star go very well together. I really think moving it to a class feat and making a defensive synthesis would be better. Like a magus that specifically wields a tome in the off hand and gets a shield item bonus for using striking spell to charge a weapon. It's sword and shield except sword and tome.
It would be nice if we could get a dev to come and codify what has been said about the magus in other threads. At this point many on the forum are talking in circles with no new guidance to go by. I would love to hear what the Dev team feels is sub par, what’s going by the way side and what’s being looked at. Of course they won’t be telling us how things will end up but it would be nice to know what’s being looked at.
Midnightoker wrote:
During play test my best use of the magus was a bandolier filled with scrolls of true strike and bespell weapon. At level 5 I was more effective using scroll and striking twice. It’s a decent feat in that it will trigger off of scrolls and staves but as you say it is clunky.
1- Shooting star upgraded to be at least as decent as eldrtich archer. The range requirement on shooting star kills it. At bare minimum let shooting star spell strike use the weapons range instead of the spells. 2- switch levels for bespell strikes and energized strikes. Or just give us a better bespell strikes. It’s a copy / paste from sorcerer and wizard and while it fits the theme a magus should be better at it then a pure caster. 3- deal with crit fishing in some way be it fortune tags or other method that lets some feats and abilities be improved without worry of things getting out of hand. 4- we really need at least 1 more 1 action strike mechanic at level 2 or 4 for a spell strike discharge option. At this point I think most everyone would take fighter dedication plus a 4th level feat just to gain a decent attack option. I’ve tried that route and a turn 2 sudden charge + spell strike is actually quite fun.
So my group is doing the slithering in campaign mode to play test the new classes. We have a summoner and to magi. one is sustaining steel and I am playing a slide casting magus. We decided to play by the strict rule of law on it as we are playtesting and home ruling a bunch of stuff defeats the purpose. We hit an interesting situation when we encountered the invisible stalker. When the invisible stalker attack he becomes hidden and not invisible. Someone said wrote:
Since spell strike requires it's own attack roll then by RAW you have to roll the DC 11 flat check for both the melee attack and the spell attack just like a fighter making multiple attacks or our hunter in the group doing dual swing. This made life a living hell for us. combined with it's innate fly speed our sustaining steel magus gave up trying to spell strike completely as he could never get near it and even then the misses where piling up. I had taken 10 scrolls of truestrike and handed him one of my bandoliers of them as all we could do was truestrike, move and strike. They really need some clause that states the spell attack is not subject to hidden and concealed targets. P.S. all slimes can go to hell.
Magus Revamp
1- Striking spell is broken into 2 abilities called Spell Combat and
Spell Combat:
Spell Strike:
2- Battle Spells: Magus Potency removed and replaced with Spell Recall Spell Recall FOCUS 1
3- Magus Synthesis: slightly tweaked.
4- Feats remain as they are except as noted here: 1st level:
4th level:
At expert martial Proficiency you deal 2 extra damage per weapon damage die.
- Spell Perry: Remains Active until you loose the spell surge condition. Then it has to be recast. 6th level: - martial caster reworked to add 1 additional spell slot to your highest and second highest spell slot making you 3/3. - bespell strikes reads as follows
8th level: - Spell Swipe gains: You make this attack with your Martial proficiency and INT bonus along with any applicable bonuses as normal for a melee strike. Additionally if you discharge your stored spell this way you use your martial proficiency and INT bonus for the spell attack roll if needed More feats to follow when I have time.
I would actually like to see spell trike able to store a spell in a blade for a number of rounds equal to your int modifier and see class feats that give you bonuses or abilities when you have your weapon charged. This is an option that has been kicked around the forums a lot. Gives far more mileage out of our 4 spell slots.
They tried something like this with the solarian in starfinder. You can only attune during stressful situations like combat. It's an RP nightmare for GM's and very unsatisfying for players to have more than half their class abilities (which look cool and could be really handy in creative ways)locked behind initiative.
Unicore wrote:
It’s arguably better because the action it takes up has a significant value due to action economy constraints when you can achieve the same thing with currency. Taking that into account along with positioning and fight dynamics the majority of the time the magus will not be attacking round 1. Ramp up classes suck to play and the magus has several ramp up abilities. 1st edition 2nd level: I can imbue blade from the arcana pool as a swift action, move, and spell strike. the ability to imbue does not interfere with the turn. 2nd edition 2nd level: I spend an action to use magus potency, 2 actions to spell strike charging a weapon (and if sliding synthesis move) and that's my turn. The ability has interfered with my action.
Unicore wrote: I just know a lot of people are writing off striking spell because they think the crit rider only has a 5% chance of going off, and with the magus, they can pretty easily take steps to make sure that they always have a 10% chance of getting a critical hit on their first attack, which is a significant number. Where this relates to Magus Potency, is that I see that the magus really has a choice by 10th level, keep a minimally invested weapon with a +1 rune that they plan on boosting regularly with magus potency to stay pretty well ahead of the curve with potency and striking weapons, or invest wealth in the weapon, occasionally boosting it with magus potency when it gives you an important accuracy bonus over what you already have against a tough opponent, but using runic impression in almost every fight, only ever using 2 focus points when it is necessary to really double down against a powerful foe. It really does replicate the arcane pool pretty closely. No one is going to argue that runic impression is not a great ability. But several are questioning magus potency as being even decent compared to other class’s initial focus mechanic. Yet magus potency is our base ability with no choice where as runic impression is a feat choice. Those seem switched in priority. Of course RP is more powerful as it’s a higher level ability. But generally it’s considered “better” in terms of design, flexibility, and utility not just strength. Magus potency is arguable better than simply buying your own weapon half the time. Does that really seem okay as a class chassis ability? As a class feat I am fine with it. But if it’s going to be something that all magus have It should be something that all magus want to have.
I think the math as pointed out above shows that potency lags behind most of the time and the majority of opinions across this forum show that people like the ability thematically but find it lacking or drudge some to use. My opinion is that if you keep it as an action tax each combat it should be better. Otherwise move it to a prerequisite to spell strike (still thematically accurate) and use that prerequisite to buff spell strike in some way (action economy or attack bonus (int used for attack) or something). Otherwise get it out of the magus core chassis.
Cantrips are rather limited so maybe we could get a few new ones that could help the Magus out. Post your ideas below. Force Needle: cantrip
A needle of force strikes your target automatically dealing 1/2 your caster level (minimum 1) + your casting attribute force damage to the target. 2 actions to cast and short range and low damage but an auto hit. The other damage cantrips will potentially put out much more damage but might fail. This would be the safe go to for run of the mill fights
There is nothing in the RAW that says your weapon can only hold 1 spell.
If the first spell was magic missile there is no MAP as they don't take attack rolls. Weapon damage+str + 3d4+3 + 1d6+int damage at level 1
so get rid of energize and bespell strikes and bespelled persistence feats all together. imbue weapon changes damage type level 4 upgrade feat (replaces bespell strikes)
level 6 feat upgrade (replaces energized strikes)
level 12 feat upgrade (replaces bespelled persistence)
This gives you a solid feat tree for a core mechanic that not only is worth while but lets you get far more mileage out of your few spell slots.
I like the concept of dumping a spell into my weapon and letting it sit there augmenting my attacks until I use it. Though the damage bump at level 1 is a bit much but could be worked around. 1- change damage type.
With only having 2 spell slots would you want to set up a 2 round combo for 1 big hit or keep 2 true strikes memorized to make the most of 2 bad situations. Once you get consumables it becomes a moot point but at low levels you might almost be better served by the true strikes for overall damage output over a fight.
Unicore wrote:
I mind it costing an action when it’s a feature the class is balanced around and taking up a focus spell slot when we could get something besides a self buff for a focus spell to help out with the limited spells. As it stands it’s worse than a feat tax, it’s a once a fight action tax. That’s just my opinion though. Others may vary.
To me this seems me (action economy wise) like trying to stuff 10 lbs into a 5 lb bag. We are already stretched thin on actions and this is a critical must have for fights. Am I alone in thinking that this should be a morning spell prep ritual that lasts all day? Possibility: Magus Potency: Class ability
You imbue your weapon with arcane might granting it a +1 weapon potency rune, granting a +1 item bonus to attack rolls with the target weapon or your unarmed attacks if you target yourself. This spell functions only for the magus casting it. When so Imbued you can use the striking spell action with this weapon. Heightened 3rd: +1 striking
This ties your spell strike to a specific weapon and even gives a basis for a black blade magus with class archtypes down the line.
I agree that spell strike has to be better than attacking twice. Personally I would like to see:
Keep in mind by 6th level you will have striking runes and cantrips doing 3d4 + int plus 2 energized blade. I don’t think the Magus will fall behind in damage at that point. But overall the spell strike needs to be simplified if for no other reason class playability and not having to roll multiple times just to initiate an ability. But also take into account that magus potency is an action as is energized blades. So we will have a round start up before we can really do much. Ramp up time sucks to play regardless of class.
I actually don't mind the limited casting forcing the majority of spell strikes to be cantrips. However I so think there should be a class feat or two that helps bump the power of our cantrips. Between 2 attack rolls and a harsh action economy a little help isn't uncalled for. options: 1- Maybe something that drops it to 1 attack roll around level 6 or so. 2- Maybe something that drops the casting actions of cantrips only to 1 action with x (maybe half magus level rounded down)/day uses. Make it a prereq for quicken spell.
So I am a bit confused by raise a tome. It is a flavorful ability and sounds cool but I have to ask, who is going to use it? It requires you to be holding a book. Slide casting specifies that your off hand is empty so unless you are going unarmed you can't use it ,and Sustaining steel is 2h style so both hands are already occupied. So you are left with shooting star specifically using thrown weapons as bows, and crossbows are 2h weapons as well. This seems a very niche and while flavorful not really useful. |