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If you have to take Spirit Sheath to overcome the action economy issues, then you aren't taking any of the other 1st or 2nd level class feats. Meaning no Combat Assessment, no Cantrip Expansion (which also feels almost obligatory), etc. As a 2nd level feat, while I like the flavor of Spirit Sheath, it's worse than Quick Draw, because you're limited to having a single weapon in the sheath and can only draw it as part of Striking Spell.
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If you have to take Spirit Sheath to overcome the action economy issues, then you aren't taking any of the other 1st or 2nd level class feats. Meaning no Combat Assessment, no Cantrip Expansion (which also feels almost obligatory), etc. As a 2nd level feat, while I like the flavor of Spirit Sheath, it's worse than Quick Draw, because you're limited to having a single weapon in the sheath and can only draw it as part of Striking Spell.
This I think is the biggest problem for most of the Summoner/Magus low level Feats. My Summoner's have outright avoided them.
They just really don't measure up to most archetype options, and while I know Archetypes cost you some investment, I do think Class Feats should be at least as good as most Dedication Feats
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Spirith Sheath being part of Striking Spell highlights how much the gamedesign wants you to use it a lot, but since it's not very good right now you often don't want or cannot use it.
Also Magus should get a feat at level 1.
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I mean, a lot of classes have some terrible level 1 and 2 feats, too. I don't mean to imply that's unique to the Magus. But yeah, not getting a level 1 class feat (unless you're Human and take that option) and most of the feats that they have to choose from at level 2 being pretty bad is rough. It's tough not to look for an archetype instead.
I know that 2E doesn't try to balance options against other class options, but a level 2 feat that allows you to draw a single weapon as part of a 2 action ability vs a level 2 feat that allows you to draw any weapon that you have in an easily accessible place as part of attacking with that weapon just doesn't compare, no matter what bonus it gives to conceal the weapon.
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Should Arcane Fists give you Unarmed training progression the way Martial Artist Dedication does? This is the part I'm talking about:
"Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in certain weapons, you also gain that proficiency rank in all unarmed attacks."
I believe there was an errata that everyone gets Unarmed progression.
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I mean, a lot of classes have some terrible level 1 and 2 feats, too. I don't mean to imply that's unique to the Magus. But yeah, not getting a level 1 class feat (unless you're Human and take that option) and most of the feats that they have to choose from at level 2 being pretty bad is rough. It's tough not to look for an archetype instead.
I know that 2E doesn't try to balance options against other class options, but a level 2 feat that allows you to draw a single weapon as part of a 2 action ability vs a level 2 feat that allows you to draw any weapon that you have in an easily accessible place as part of attacking with that weapon just doesn't compare, no matter what bonus it gives to conceal the weapon.
I would say that generally, for other classes, the level 1 Feats are relatively fine (though there are exceptions like Eschew Materials).
I would put Widen Spell on par with Sentinel if the context is the Wizard isn't exactly "looking" to get heavy armor. A high dex wizard probably wants Widen Spell over Sentinel.
But when your Class Feats basically amount to a weaker version of another option in the Class you originally chose that's a bit weird to me. Generally, you want to incentivize people to "stay in Class" for abilities and if the Class Feat concept for that Class is weaker at exemplifying that concept than an Archetype, that to me is an issue.
You should want to take an Archetype to cover a niche you can't fill, not because it's a better version of one of your own Class Feats. That to me signals that the Class Feat is failing to fulfill its concept.
Like Rogues get Quickdraw at level 2, which is nice because it means they don't have to do the Duelist Dedication investment and can go another Archetype.
A great example of this inside the Magus itself is the Arcane Fist Class Feat at level 1. It is a stronger version of Martial Artist because it is effectively 1 level lower and enables the Critical Specialization (which Magus don't even get).
Another is Quickbomber, its level 1, emulates Quickdraw but to the only weapons Alchemist are likely to need to draw that quickly. That to me is a powerbudget that makes sense and even then people don't consider the Quickbomber Feat amazing (though basically mandatory for Bombers).
A Magus can pick Spirit Sheath, which quite literally (without the conceal feature) is just a much more limited version of Quickdraw. Why not just go Duelist Archetype Dedication if you were so inclined?
If Spirit Sheath allowed storing multiple weapons (up to INT?) and worked the way it does, that enables Throw builds for Shooting Star, Iajutsu style attacks with different traited weapons, and various other combat tactics (such as starting with Deception).
Now that is worth a Feat even though logistically it's not much different from Quickdraw, you only get the Quickdraw benefits as part of Striking Spell which both incentivizes SS as well as allowing a little more "bang" in the power budget.
The Summoner I'm just not going to get into, but in general my Summoners just don't seem interested in their Feat options.
I mean I think combat assessment is a objectively good feat. But that's because I built my Magus around int skills and Athletics. I just wish it played better with spell strike.
Spirit sheathe has some benefit over quickdraw, in that conceal feature, but outside of fun places to hide your weapon is not particularly strong no.
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Combat Assessment is one of the better options and what I'm most likely to take in a build. And Familiar has its uses. Raise a Tome is just kind of incompatible with most builds. Eschew Materials is just not great in general.
The real issue is that I feel like if I don't take Cantrip Expansion, or an archetype, then I'll have very little utility spellcasting. The general strategy seems to be take a bunch of different attack cantrips so that you can target weaknesses/avoid resistances. But that adds up fast, leaving no room for detect magic, read aura, etc.
Though a Wizard Dedication gets you the same number of cantrips as Cantrip Expansion plus a trained skill plus access to additional spells for a feat later, so that also doesn't make Cantrip Expansion look great. It's a feat that seems necessary if you're not going to go with a spell casting archetype.
See for me I'm ok with giving up that utility and often have because I don't feel like always solving a problem with a spell.
So for me, not having things like detect magic gives me absolutely zero pause, let alone worry.
Edit: in fact I went the other route and multicass fighter for dragging strike and lunge with slide casting.
Either way, Spirit Sheath stacks up very poorly against any of those options (Expanded Cantrip, caster dedication, or Fighter Dedication).
Maybe, but I'd still take it just to shore up my first round of combat for sliding Magus. Plus sneaking my weapon into places. I don't argue it being a bit weak in comparison though. It's just I hate HATE clunky. And losing my first round of attacking while using spell strike because I'm not paranoid and always have my weapon drawn irks me. As does pushing my gameplay back a round in favor of just running up and swinging (like energized strikes).
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Why not just go Duelist Archetype Dedication if you were so inclined?Without reference to the larger point about weak class feats, which I largely agree with, I think it's worth noting that Quick Draw is not generally compatible with Striking Spell.
This necessitates a class specific version of the feat. It doesn't necessitate a weaker class specific version of the feat. If it were just draw a weapon as you infuse it with a spell, that would be better than draw one specific weapon.
If someone takes Spirit Sheath, what I'd recommend is to put your backup weapon in the sheath. That way if someone disarms you or you get knocked unconscious in the middle of a fight, you can actually get some use out of the feat. If you end up in a situation at the start of combat where you really need to Striking Spell, Stride, and attack (and you're a Slide Caster), then just use your backup weapon for that fight.
The archetype that I really want to work with Magus is Aldori Duelist (partly selfishly so I can recreate my Kingmaker character). That version of quick draw (Duelist's Edge) would work with Striking Spell fine, because it's a free action as part of rolling initiative. And it gives a bonus to initiative in the process. But it's a 4th level feat, so I'd expect it to be better.
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This necessitates a class specific version of the feat. It doesn't necessitate a weaker class specific version of the feat. If it were just draw a weapon as you infuse it with a spell, that would be better than draw one specific weapon.Why not just go Duelist Archetype Dedication if you were so inclined?Without reference to the larger point about weak class feats, which I largely agree with, I think it's worth noting that Quick Draw is not generally compatible with Striking Spell.
Like I said, I agree with the point that the magus' feats are weak, including Spirit Sheath. All I'm pointing out is that, if you're using Quick Draw and Striking Spell, you're breaking the rules, which might be relevant for playtesting purposes.
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Like I said, I agree with the point that the magus' feats are weak, including Spirit Sheath. All I'm pointing out is that, if you're using Quick Draw and Striking Spell, you're breaking the rules, which might be relevant for playtesting purposes.This necessitates a class specific version of the feat. It doesn't necessitate a weaker class specific version of the feat. If it were just draw a weapon as you infuse it with a spell, that would be better than draw one specific weapon.Why not just go Duelist Archetype Dedication if you were so inclined?Without reference to the larger point about weak class feats, which I largely agree with, I think it's worth noting that Quick Draw is not generally compatible with Striking Spell.
I don't think anyone was suggesting actually combining striking spell and quick draw. Just pointing out that one 2nd level feat (quick draw) grants more benefit (to the classes that get it) than another 2nd level feat (Spirit Sheath) grants to the Magus.
But like I also said, 2E seem unconcerned with whether one class's options at a given level match up to another class's options at a given level. But even looking at the benefit Magus gets from Spirit Sheath, it's not great. Maybe for an intrigue campaign, but for the general type of adventuring in Pathfinder, it's not an exciting option, since most GMs are going to let you have your weapon out in most situations where you'll need it.
Quick Draw at least has in combat utility by letting you switch to a different weapon quickly for overcoming resistances. Spirit Sheath only offers that if you do what I suggested and put a backup weapon in the sheath instead of your main.
Depends I guess. If you mean I can’t make a strike that already has a striking spell in it, then yes because you have to be wielding the weapon to imbue it.
But you can still QuickDraw, Attack, striking spell, cast spell, hold til next turn, throw/strike weapon start of next, repeat.
Delays the rotation but still doable. And if you’re using the message sustaining steel combo, draw strike striking spell, message, strike isn’t a bad turn for not having one drawn
You just can’t start the turn with striking spell and follow with a QuickDraw, at least not with the spell in the weapon drawn (body is still legal).
Is it weaker for Magus to take QuickDraw vs Spirit Sheath considering their current action economy? Potentially so, but I’d like to see sheath get a tiny bit more considering its second level. If it was first and they got a level one class feat, I’d probably have no issues with it.
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The arcane spell list only and prepared casting only make the Magus very limited in which players are going to like the class. This is the fundamental flaw with the class as written.
I suspect that's a you issue. I haven't heard this mentioned once in any post on this class until you.
The issues are action economy. Accuracy. Beyond that it depends on the person. Like some want more slots.
Plus we're likely to get future class archétypes using other lists at some point. The arcane list is the wider one of all so being restricted to it isn't much of an issue.