Animal Fury question


Rules Questions


"Animal Fury (Ex): While raging, the barbarian gains a bite
attack. If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is
made at the barbarian’s full base attack bonus –5. If the bite
hits, it deals 1d4 points of damage (assuming the barbarian
is Medium; 1d3 points of damage if Small) plus half the
barbarian’s Strength modifier. A barbarian can make a bite
attack as part of the action to maintain or break free from a
grapple. This attack is resolved before the grapple check is
made. If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made by the
barbarian against the target this round are at a +2 bonus."

It says under the combat section:

"...In addition,
all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed
strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting...."

1) Does the rage power ability allow you to make a bite attack without needing the two weapon fighting feat? Or if I rage, have animal fury, and choose to make a bite attack in combination with attacking with my weapon do I suffer the additional twf penalties?

2)Do I add my strength modifier to the bite attack? Dexterity if I have weapon finese? Or is my bite attack simply my full base attack bonus -5?

So if I have a BaB of 6, and a strength modifer of +5...would my bite attack be (if I am also attacking with a weapon) +6 (6+5-5)? Or would it be +1 (6-5)?

thank you in advance.


It does exactly what it says it does...
IF you conform to the expectations of a humanoid PC, i.e. your Full Attack is done with weapons.
You get a bite attack at -5 BAB and 1x STR mod to DMG
on top of and without affecting the rest of the attacks of a Full Attack Action.

Your quote with regard to the general rules for combining natural and manufactured attacks is suspected to be Errata. In any event, even if those are the general rules, this Feat over-rides those because it is allowing you to make your normal Full Attack WITHOUT ANY STATED PENALTY in addition to the bite attack which is properly treated as a 2ndary attack in combo with an Iterative attack.

This ability is actually a good example of how mixing natural attacks and iterative attacks is SUPPOSED to work, i.e. NOT applying `2WF` penalties on top of the iterative attacks, but simply down-grading all the natural attacks to secondary (if they weren`t already) and giving them a -5 attack penalty. In fact, it`s widely thought that the last 3 sentences of the `Natural Attacks` sub-heading of the Attack Action in the Combat Chapter are Errata and should simply be ignored. (besides that all `attack` info should really be located under general attack heading, not the specific Attack Action, especially wierd for the Natural Attack section since it`s largely dealing with multiple attack scenarios normally reuiring a Standard Action `Attack Action`).

The RAW of the ability DOESN`T cover what happens if you don`t try to make an iterative attack with manufactured weapons or unarmed strikes, but instead want to combine it with other natural weapons. I`m not going to look up the quote, but Paizo has stated that the ability is indeed just another natural weapon, so in that case the bite would be another primary weapon at full STR mod to DMG, with no penalty to BAB. (If you already have a Bite attack, the ability doesn`t do anything besides the synergy with Grapple, unless you somehow had a bite attack that was below par for your size, in which case it would be raised to the damage value given in the ability)

To your specific questions:
1) Yes, it allows you to make a bite attack alone or in addition to other iterative or natural attacks, but that has nothing to do with 2WF. In any case, nobody needs any 2WF Feats to 2WF because the Feat only reduces the penalties, doesn`t give new capabilities (until higher level 2WF Feats which give off-hand attacks for 2nd and 3rd tier attacks). As my first paragraph says, you can safely use this ability as written in combo with manufactured weapon (or UAS) iterative attacks, i.e. without any penalties to any weapon (unless you already were 2WF`ing with the iteratives) or further penalties to the Bite beyond the -5 given in the Feat.

2) It`s a melee attack, so you add all appropriate modifiers. Weapon Finesse is actually pretty clear how Natural Weapons are treated (they count as Light Weapons).


Quandary wrote:

It does exactly what it says it does...

IF you conform to the expectations of a humanoid PC, i.e. your Full Attack is done with weapons.
You get a bite attack at -5 BAB and 1x STR mod to DMG
on top of and without affecting the rest of the attacks of a Full Attack Action.

Your quote with regard to the general rules for combining natural and manufactured attacks is suspected to be Errata. In any event, even if those are the general rules, this Feat over-rides those because it is allowing you to make your normal Full Attack WITHOUT ANY STATED PENALTY in addition to the bite attack which is properly treated as a 2ndary attack in combo with an Iterative attack.

This ability is actually a good example of how mixing natural attacks and iterative attacks is SUPPOSED to work, i.e. NOT applying `2WF` penalties on top of the iterative attacks, but simply down-grading all the natural attacks to secondary (if they weren`t already) and giving them a -5 attack penalty. In fact, it`s widely thought that the last 3 sentences of the `Natural Attacks` sub-heading of the Attack Action in the Combat Chapter are Errata and should simply be ignored. (besides that all `attack` info should really be located under general attack heading, not the specific Attack Action, especially wierd for the Natural Attack section since it`s largely dealing with multiple attack scenarios normally reuiring a Standard Action `Attack Action`).

The RAW of the ability DOESN`T cover what happens if you don`t try to make an iterative attack with manufactured weapons or unarmed strikes, but instead want to combine it with other natural weapons. I`m not going to look up the quote, but Paizo has stated that the ability is indeed just another natural weapon, so in that case the bite would be another primary weapon at full STR mod to DMG, with no penalty to BAB. (If you already have a Bite attack, the ability doesn`t do anything besides the synergy with Grapple, unless you somehow had a bite attack that was below par for your size, in which case...

Okay cool Thanks.

Sovereign Court

It is a lovely rage power for any full attacking Barbarian. Its the minion-nommer :)


Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
It is a lovely rage power for any full attacking Barbarian. Its the minion-nommer :)

Using it on oozes and undead may not be advisable however, depending on how sadistic your DM is. ;)


That it is... (lovely)

I never could get Tejon`s DPR Calculator to work with it correctly, but Animal Fury seems a very nice deal, especially since it`s also has the synergy with Grapples as well as always giving you a close-in weapon even hile you are are wielding a Reach weapon (or are Disarmed).

The other thing I wanted to mention was that you should be able to make single Bite attacks (as Attack Action or Cleave or Spring Attack) without Grappling, or make a Bite as an AoO, since the ability does function as a Natural Attack in all ways (as per the words `While raging, the barbarian gains a bite attack`).

FYI, the rules for Natural Attacks under Universal Monster Rules in the Bestiary are much clearer than how it`s treated in the Combat chapter of the Core Rules, i.e. without the faulty 2WF wording which should be Errata`d.

Also FYI, it`s considered bad form to quote a long post in it`s entirety, as it`s redundant text that everybody has to scroll thru and maybe even read thru on the assumption there WAS a good reason to quote it in the first place. You can `cut out` (delete) portions that aren`t actually necessary to reference, and if you`re posting directly after the person you`re responding to, you don`t usually need to quote them at all, since their post is already immediately above yours to establish the context (which is what a quote is replicating).

Sovereign Court

In my SS PbP the 20 con barbarians chewing into undead with relish at the moment, tearing chunks out...


Quandary wrote:
The RAW of the ability DOESN`T cover what happens if you don`t try to make an iterative attack with manufactured weapons or unarmed strikes, but instead want to combine it with other natural weapons. I`m not going to look up the quote, but Paizo has stated that the ability is indeed just another natural weapon, so in that case the bite would be another primary weapon at full STR mod to DMG, with no penalty to BAB. (If you already have a Bite attack, the ability doesn`t do anything besides the synergy with Grapple, unless you somehow had a bite attack that was below par for your size, in which case it would be raised to the damage value given in the ability)

This was my question.

Is it confirmed now that this bite attack, when used as a full round attack action with only natural attacks, is made at full BAB?

Is it with full STR to damage, or only 1/2?

Sczarni

Just an FYI, when you're searching through past threads, look at the date of which the last post was made. This thread is almost 4 years old. Resurrecting such an old thread is usually frowned upon, because much discussion has likely taken place in those 4 years, and anything you quote is likely to have been answered elsewhere, or even have been added to the FAQ or errata.


I searched and this was the best I could find. Do you have an answer for me?


Sanjiv wrote:
I searched and this was the best I could find. Do you have an answer for me?

If you couldn't find an answer then create a new post for your question and you'll get answers there. I don't know your question. but if you make a new thread I'll look at it.

Sczarni

Indeed. It is better to create a new thread, and link any older discussions you've found during your search.

A lot can happen in 4 years.

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