Kaklatath the Seeded

Yakman's page

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thorun09 wrote:

Just curious if anyone know Golarian calendar date for start of Battle of BloodMarch Hill

It was published in February 2015, so that would correspond to Calistril 4715.

The most important thing is really if you want to run the mountain parts of the AP, particularly Book 3 and 4, in the middle of impassable snows or not.

I'd probably opt for not, and run the AP as if it's happening in the summer when the snows have largely melted in Minderhal's Valley.

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Ardic Fell wrote:
So I just got done running the first trial and I feel like the Ap needed a lot more information on the ooze creatures. The book contains almost nothing besides that fact that they are oozes, that communicate with color, they have stumpy building and they "eat" fungus and bugs. my players were asking a ton of question I had to make up a lot on the fly, like there exact state of technological development, there social structure, there occupations, there religion. I decided they warship Aakriti. Anyway an actual stat block and description would have been nice. One of my players want to go back after the Adventure is concluded, to like follow up.

We had a lot of fun with them. And yeah, I just had to make stuff up, but I kept it pretty general. After all, even though the PCs are assumed to have established a means of communication with them, it's not like they are "fluent" and there's a pretty tight timeline (I think the PCs end up having maybe 4-5 hours of communication with them?)

I basically said that they were living in a classless utopia free of bias... and the dwarf introduced them to greed.

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A paladin is a very strong choice for this AP. Don't pick classes like alchemist or gunslinger (as the player's guide points out) which rely on consumable items.

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GM Cthulhu wrote:
Yakman wrote:
If you go w/ the Bastion, maybe they find a friendly ghost in the village who can tell them [something] that will help them get back inside?

I think I will go with the main action being in the Bastion. I'll close off the secret passage, maybe super-traps and alarms the scout doesn't think he can disarm. But I'll use your 'friendly ghost' idea and have the town spirit they encountered in the cemetery impress on them the urgency of the situation and offer to dimension door them on a one-way trip into the cathedral.

I'll beef up the welcoming party though.

one thing you might do is RELEASE THE BEAR.

such an awesome piece of art and a great monster, but most parties are just going to skip it.

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Ed Emmer wrote:
Does anyone know if there will be Society Play Sanctioning documents for this AP like they have for all of the other ones? I would ordinarily assume yes but since this is a remaster of a story arc that was already a Society season, I am not sure.

i can't see them not doing it.

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GM Cthulhu wrote:

In the last session, the party finished off the trip through Roslar's Tomb and made it into the Bastion of Light.

The only problem was that they took damage from the sarcophagus trap, fought the Venedaemons, the Living Walls and the Rot Grub Swarm before entering the cathedral of the Bastion WITHOUT RESTING or even healing. So they were in no fit state to fight the welcoming party. We're two rounds in and they've decided to run away and return later.

So: what should I have waiting for them? Now that the cult is aware of the secret way in, they should do something to secure themselves from attack from that direction. I'm thinking traps, alarms and a much larger contingent of cultists. Not to mention a greater level of alertness from the other denizens of the Bastion.

When my guys got into the Bastion, after the initial fight, they also wanted to retreat. I made it pretty clear to them that this was a no-go: they were out of food, and the Whispering Way could just shut the passage, leaving them in the apocalypse of RC, where they were going to starve to death if they were lucky. So they pushed on.

My take:you can either let them get back into the Bastion, but it's boosted up OR do something like have Valthazar & co. chase them into the village.

I had a fight in the village where I had our PCs fight one of the PCs' bullies, who were transformed into 2 Unrisen. To up the action, I kept adding zombies to the edge of the map, moving them slowly towards the PCs [leaving one less dangerous escape route]. It got TENSE, but eventually, the undead bullies were put down and the PCs managed to escape.

Maybe have the showdown happen in the village square? Maybe set the village on fire, throw some zombies around, and put the Whispering Way's assets into the burning streets of the town?

If you go w/ the Bastion, maybe they find a friendly ghost in the village who can tell them [something] that will help them get back inside?

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

The Drow being absent doesn't change that much from the Jinin's perspective:

-A bunch of elves fled into the Darklands to survive Earthfall.

- Over time, these elves lost touch with each other since the darklands are large and magic was unreliable.

- The precursors of the Jinin noticed the corrupting influence of Rovagug, and decided to organize their society around self-discipline to avoid those effects and also to get out of here when it's safe.

The Ayindilar might be their distant cousins. Unspecified other groups of Darklands elves might also be their distant cousins.

Cavern Elf is right there in Player Core.

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AvarielGray wrote:
Yakman wrote:
nah, at my table, she DED. or as a helpful nosoi explained to the party, *POOF!*
Was that nosoi Umble? "She has "Poof!"ed with decidedly pooficious permanentatiousness!"

I renamed him to 'Coco!' (the exclamation point is mandatory) but yes.

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Souls At War wrote:
As for Asmodeus and the whole OGL/D&D thing, might be useful to remember this would hold true for a lot of Hell's power players (and some from the Abyss).

the names are mostly fine. some of the characterizations might not be (thinking of Beelzebub, Belial, Asmodeus, Dagon, etc.)

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So, we have a ghoran mechanic in our AP.

He wanted to take the 'bud drone' feature, and I said, cool, and he's got a plant, rather than aberration drone. Here's the unaltered benefit text for the feat:

"Your drone has living components. You can use Medicine instead of Engineering to repair it, and your drone naturally heals to full Hit Points when you rest for 8 hours. A drone modified in this way is considered an aberration rather than a construct for the purpose of spells and effects targeting it. In addition, Life Science and Medicine become class skills for you."

Last session, in the thick of combat the drone goes down. He wanted to use a Mk 1 healing serum to bring it back up... I said "No" because it's still a construct, and healing serums don't work on constructs.

But... is the healing serum causing an "effect" ?

If not... since the drone a construct which is considered a plant, "mend" shouldn't work on it. So... how else would you fix the drone during combat?

Thoughts from the table?

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what is a good adventure to get pcs to 5th level?

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Also, there's no reason why Arazni can't be wandering around. And no reason why the Council Libertine isn't already looking for her.

high level stuff, to actually encounter, but it's pretty easy to have a meeting with a hooded woman who reeks of spices and does something mysterious (i emphasized how expensive her clothing looked (her cloak could buy a major ranch... none of the lords of Vigil owned such fine boots, etc.), and when the oracle tried detect magic on her, he almost went blind from the radiance of the gear), and then later on find just PILES OF BODIES in the direction she went and our PCs seeing in the distance a quartet of riders on spectral horses, carrying the black banner of Mechitar and howling in delight...

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Patman wrote:
What is to keep the players from just skipping over the forest around Hammer Rock. At 16th level, they can fly, teleport without error or eve assuming they go into the forest, why would they participate in the Wild Hunt instead of just whacking the Fey? I'm confused. This would have been cooler as an earlier type thing. I'd rather have some stuff about Absalom or a big attack on a "rag tag" band of refugees.

So, if you want to get them into the forest around Hammer Rock, remember, the forest is WEIRD. I think the Fey / Wild Hunt encounter is one of the best parts of Book 6, personally, so I'll assume that you are trying to get the players there. Here's some thoughts:

A magical weapon of apocalyptic power was detonated on Hammer Rock and is literally twisting reality.

Teleport? Don't work. Or you teleport, but you auto-fail, and boom, you end up with the Fey. Flying? There's insane clouds, just over the mutant forest which are twisting and dangerous. On approach, you see massive tentacles or fangs, or something, spiraling dangerous and massive in the multi-colored expanse. It's much less dangerous under the tree tops. If they still want to fly, then drop a CR 18 dragon on them (one of the less common ones, like an Outer or Esoteric dragon). It doesn't try to kill them so much as drive them under the treetops, wherein our players encounter the fey.

Finally, for the fey, hopefully your players like to roleplay and go along with it, rather than just whacking the fey. Or you know, what, make there LOTS of these high fey. Tell your players that they all look pretty tough. It's better to negotiate.

When my players are looking like they are going to do something which is less cool than what I've planned, I just TELL THEM "Guys, this is a fun thing in the book, so, I know you want to hunt the baldersnatch (or far more lamely, use teleport), but I think this will be cool."

This all being said, if you want to skip Book 6, just have the teleporter from Book 5 send them to Kortos. I was strongly leaning that way when sketching out the AP but I really like that fey encounter and I've been low-key building towards that with one of the PCs since Book 2. We are in the back third of Book 5 right now, although that's been heavily reworked.

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rokeca wrote:
I'm starting a new 2e campaign for friends and family. I'm looking for good options for a game that is strong on the role playing/skill side of the game (no interest in dungeon crawls). I've heard Strength of Thousands could be a good option. Is that the case? Also open to modules that Paizo has published. Thanks!

I'm really strongly leaning towards Sky King's Tomb as our next AP because of the many and varied RP opportunities.

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Warped Savant wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
To the OP: don't believe what you hear about Hell's Rebels. It is very much a traditionally combat-focused game, and the cast of NPCs who matter is actually vanishingly small.

I'm a year and a half late but, oh man, do I ever disagree with you on this one.

Hell's Rebels was the most RP intensive campaign my group has had and it's easy for a group to get the NPCs involved and for the GM to allow the NPCs to be important throughout the entire story.
Are they mentioned thoughout the books? No.
Do the PCs toss them to the side after the main plot for each NPC is finished? I would hope not! If they're doing that, Zimmerwald, that's a problem with your group not getting invested or the GM not allowing the NPCs to matter. Sorry to see that happened to you.

NPCs that featured prominently throughout the Hell's Rebels game I ran included:
Laria, Hetamon, Zea, Raenna Solstine's grandchildren (I introduced them in book 1), Setrona, Blosodriette, Vendalfek, Octavio, Marquel, Strea, Luculla, Tiarise (also introduced her in book 1), of course Thrune (but that's a given), as well as a few I added in like the previous duxotar of the Dottari.
Hell, even Odexidie made a few appearances after the initial encounter he's introduced in.

there's also a ton of really fun humanoid villains who you can sprinkle into RP sessions before your Silver Ravens run into them. The Gardener in particular might be a wonderful addition to Books 2 & 3 before he's encountered in Book 4.

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GM Cthulhu wrote:

The party's working their way through the real Roslar's Tomb. One of the players has a pretty good memory and can remember a lot of the tomb from the Dead Roads, even though we played it months ago. So he's picking up details/differences that the others are missing.

The party is getting really, really sick of monsters that do ability damage. Last session they were up against the xenopteid zombie and the vampiric mists, both of which did con damage. That's fine, because next week they're up against the Guecubu which will curse them instead.

you are going to have to be careful with those, since the fight in the Bastion is not easy. Might want to swap monsters out. There's a lot of good undead monsters at or around that CR who are more "basic".

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Briarstone Asylum in Book 1 of Strange Aeons. There's no competition in my opinion.

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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Wow! I'd love to know what level 1-3 adventure GMs would run as a lead in?

suspect Junker's Delight will be a popular suggestion

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Kevin Mack wrote:
To be honest I felt the last 3 ap's could have each done being a book or two longer (Gate walkers and stolen fate while I really like them felt rushed in a few places and the Dwarf one could possibly have done with ending at a higher lvl.)

Respectfully disagree, although I haven't read through Stolen Fate, I liked the speed and thoughtfulness in both Gatewalkers and Sky King's Tomb.

They both had really good "Continuing the Adventure" sections for DMs to work in some higher-level homebrew.

Personally, I'm looking at running one or the other when we finish our current AP. I like that they are both "contained" and tell a full storyline in a 'compact' package.

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Very fun. One thing - did you consider the time line? That might help sort out the Reginald theory?

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Congratulations!

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the Queen should have had some. she has a big role in the story and would be a great recurring NPC.

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Chocolate Milkshake wrote:
Here's an idea: Make it a bit of a Darklands melting pot. Xulgaths are already there, and hryngars (that's what they're called now, right?) would make a decent fit for a corporate hellscape planet.

heckuva a idea.

maybe *something* chewed up all the NOW UNNAMED inhabitants, and it's a floating rock of death. the largest dungeon imaginable. and for some reason, it's off of its orbit...

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Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Yakman wrote:
when we almost had a player death in the opening encounter.
*insert obligatory joke about player vs character*

well... he was really into his new PC.

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The AP really needs more Technic League. Add them in. Maybe it's not the higher ups, who are scared of the danger - like, the resident technic league guys said they had a conference to go to - but some sniveling bootlicker is sent in, and he's this recurring thorn in the side of the PCs through the books, with his comeuppance / redemption in Book 6

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well... the fight to start out BLOOD LORDS is pretty memorable.

but, and this is 1E, it's hard to beat the start to GIANTSLAYER, where the PCs engage in a tug-of-war.

For the APs I've run, the start to TYRANT'S GRASP is so unique, and my guys really played into it, that's a special one for me. for STARFINDER, we are running ATTACK OF THE SWARM! and that AP's brutality was hit home straight away when we almost had a player death in the opening encounter.

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AvarielGray wrote:
Agree with Yakman here, a little bit of setup time for the PCs and you could have a really satisfying encounter of luring the Yaoguai into an ambush, completely turn the tables on it! There are very few points in this campaign where the PCs can really feel in control, and a little revenge ambush could certainly lighten some spirits.

oh, and hey, maybe have a friendly ghost, that they find in the ruins who suggests insane Rube Goldberg-esque machines to capture this foul creature.

and like... actually have it be friendly. and satisfied (a.k.a. gets to depart this world) when you succeed.

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Last session was another banger. Brought back Captain Rameem [the party captain!] from our Threefold Conspiracy campaign, where he was last seen - after being rescued from shapeshifters - stealing the PCs ship. That was fun, and something I was looking forward to since I opened up this volume.

Also really enjoyed the shade fight, made full use of them shifting in and out of the walls and targeting the Hylaxians in the party.

The final highlight was the quest into the memory[?] of the God-Host and the war against the Pact Worlds and the Veskarium. Four of my five players failed to help during the war effort, and we'll start out next session with them describing how the Swarm's victories effected each of the PCs personally.

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Yakman wrote:
I would like for the next PF campaign we run to take place in the same continuity, so might just have to tell my players that there's some differences w/ the new source material.
Considering how easy it is to resurrect mortals within the rules, and how there are no actual rules about divine mortality or lack thereof, it feels like "a God came back from what seemed like their death" is one of the easiest canon breaches to resolve. Like Aroden was prophecied to do this, and it was a surprise when he didn't. Arazni was his traveling companion for a while, so maybe she hitched the ride back that was waiting for Aroden. Heck, Arazni already died twice before Tyrant's Grasp and neither of those times took.

BUT... I don't want to do that ;-)

nah, at my table, she DED. or as a helpful nosoi explained to the party, *POOF!*

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GM Cthulhu wrote:

My party was having awful trouble with the Yaoguai. It wouldn't have been a TPK because they were preparing to run into the forest in different directions to get away. But it would have killed a few of them.

One of them still had the bead of force they got from Mrs Pedipalp in the Scriptorium and had the bright idea of using it. So now the Yaoguai is trapped for ten minutes, and I'm having to work out when/if to spring it onto the party later.

I think I'll have them be taken to a place of safety by Jando and have him offer to track the beast for them after they rest up. I'll have him strongly hint that leaving it alive might be very dangerous as it may be likely to ambush them at an inopportune time.

maybe have them help build a better trap for it? and like... he needs iron spikes from the blacksmith's shop or some ropes from the stablery, and the PCs have to go into town to get them for him?

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AvarielGray wrote:
keftiu wrote:

A few interesting pieces of the puzzle from

today’s stream: Lost Omens: Divine Mysteries is a 2024 book with a psychopomp narrator, aimed at bringing Gods & Magic into the Remaster and expanding on it. The cover shows a suspiciously alive-looking Arazni (stated to be joining the Core 20!) standing in front of stained glass depictions of Asmodeus (right), Pharasma (center), and Sarenrae battling Rovagug (left).

Whoever dies, Arazni’s filling in their slot - and maybe getting to be less corpse-y. Pharasma giving her the Boneyard job? Urgathoa kicking the bucket as a middle finger to necromancers everywhere? Gozreh gifting a big burst of vitality as they beef it? I truly have no idea.

Okay I should have read this first. Scratch that. Also holy wow this is a reveal! I mean I adore Arazni - I'm running a party through Tyrant's Grasp at the moment and I can't wait for them to get into her situation. But... wow. Core 20. I'm happy for her. I hope I'm happy for her...

yeah... running TG as well, and I killed her off permanently.

I would like for the next PF campaign we run to take place in the same continuity, so might just have to tell my players that there's some differences w/ the new source material.

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vyshan wrote:
keftiu wrote:

I worry that Urgathoa beefing it leaves Team Bad Guy a little empty in the Core 20. Asmodeus, Lamashtu, Norgorber, Zon-Kuthon, and an imprisoned Rovagug is kind of a thin rogue's gallery.

Losing a more 'heroic' deity feels more interesting.

I wonder if Rovagug would drop out of the 20 core gods. Not that he isn't a big deal in the setting he is, but he isn't really one that players should be worshiping and one that basically is outlawed for good reason everywhere. I could make a follower of Nogober, Urgathoa, Zon-Kuthon, Asmodeus, or even Lamashtu that could be played and part of a group. Might be tricky and difficult to work, but it is possible. Rovagug on the other hand I don't think can really be done.

and to me the core 20 should be deities that the players look at having as patrons.

if you are playing in an evil campaign, Rovagug sure sounds pretty awesome as a choice of deity.

He's also literally 'central' to the Golarion setting, being that Rovagug is trapped in the core of the planet.

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Cellion wrote:
Take a look at Dawn of Flame, that's the sun-based AP. Lots of interesting intra-stellar locations.

i assume you mean "intra-solar" locations?

played the first 2 books, and they were both bangers.

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just gotta say, after being critical of this book, our most recent session was one of the most fun that i've had running a game in a while. my pcs as unbeatable monsters started attacking each other to save their friends was muah.

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Morhek wrote:
Irori strikes me as one of those gods who mostly exist to embody a philosophy to justify its presence in-universe to make the world feel broader, filling a niche in the worldbuilding, but who most players are going to go glazen-eyed when they came to pick a god for their cleric. And if you're going to play an Iroran then chances are you're playing a monk anyway. Which doesn't mean he's not important, but it is a bit of an odd niche. It's the same problem I have with Gorum, where he's just The War God because the world needs a war god, with not much mythology to him, though at least Irori has more to him to work with.

There's at least some fun tension in the Gorum / Iomedae rivalry. Irori? Snore-city.

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Vorsk, Follower or Erastil wrote:
Gisher wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

...

"Cayden's luck runs out" would be a fitting end to his story, but I don't see it.
I've long suspected that Aroden's death was connected to the Starstone. If we did have another Starstone-raised deity experience a mysterious death, that would be an interesting pattern.
That would make it Norgorber next on the chopping block, which I actually could see being interesting. He recently lost herald and champions in Agents of Edgewatch. Clearly him being ripped apart and all his secrets revealed would be fascinating. (And clearly they can kill multiple gods in one when it's revealed he is actually 4 halflings in a cloak pretending to be one god)

Norgorber is interesting b/c he's mysterious. Revealing his secrets makes him boring, even in death, thus he's safe.

Besides, we can't kill the true god of humanity, can we?

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Morhek wrote:
Given the city is run by duergar/hryngar, I imagine they really put the "trap" in "tourist trap." Overpriced accomodations, overpriced food, overpriced souvenirs, and really rude, unpleasant customer service. And people still keep going back for The Experience.

oh, but there's a free option. you just have to sit in on a seminar regarding real estate opportunities...

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Grankless wrote:
Yakman wrote:
Leon Aquilla wrote:

343 megabytes for 197 pages. The Devastation Ark compression bug has returned, dethroning Starstone Blockade as the second largest SF book by overall PDF size on release. Coming in 4th is Pact Worlds at 235mb for 220 pages. Waking the Worldseed still in 1st at 347mb.

Per page, Starstone Blockade, Waking the Worldseed, and Whispers of the Eclipse (Horizons of the Vast #3) are still undefeated.

(Looking at my digital library, it looks like Waking the Worldseed and Starstone Blockade got fixed...but Whispers of the Eclipse is actually 35mb bigger than it used to be. Wack.)

Crazy.

I deleted my Threefold Conspiracy books from my hard drive b/c they were so massive.

Weird how this doesn't happen with the longer Pathfinder AP volumes... ;-)

I assure you, it does.

you made me check... Book 1 of Stolen Fate clocks in at a massive 195 MB...

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Vorsk, Follower or Erastil wrote:

Depending on how much you view it as "cannon" Jason Bulmahn ran a 2e 1 shot set in Trunau for Glass Cannon for a live show at Pax Unplugged in 2019 I believe. Was set after the fall of lastwall with the city now needing to get by without able to recieve supplies easily from lastwall.

But I too would personally love to know what happened "officially" to the cloud keep and to the red dragon orb from Giantslayer though I guess with the OGL shenanigans I doubt that second one will ever now be addressed...

the "after the adventure" stuff at the end of Giantslayer is great. Love the idea of a dream gigas deciding to intervene in Golarion.

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pixierose wrote:
I mean they have changed Iconics in the past but that came with a change in edition. Remaster is still second edition. Again maybe they will change the iconic but I feel like it would only be likely if we Iomaedae is the one to go. If they do it just as a red herring then that would be way to silly, messing with brand, and identity for something short sighted I feel.

Iomedae is probably pretty low on the list for the chopping block... but a new iconic CHAMPION rather than an updated PALADIN would still be fun.

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Wonky Chewbacca wrote:
I was rolling with the mildly military manner in which the PCs get treated up to this point, but the bit where the admirals or what have you say "You there, random lieutenants we've never met, you seem awesome! Decide these force dispositions!" blows it for me. However, I like the overall mechanic. Suggestions? I'm thinking command is holding them in reserve, and then their ship explodes or communications get disrupted, leaving the PCs to decide where they need to go, but I'd welcome any input.

I really don't like the set up of this book. Midnight Squad was last running a minor guerilla operation off system and is now considered the strategists AND the tip of the spear?

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i played some of the scenarios, but I think most of my players haven't - or if they have, it was also probably years ago as well. Kinda wanna run this as our next AP with the pitch being : "You can swap out PCs"

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keftiu wrote:
PF2Nethys deity block wrote:

Edicts seek out magical power and use it

Anathema pursue mundane paths over magical ones
I’ve never really seen Nethys as some kind of howling mad scientist, and I think his Edicts and Anathema speak to that. This is the guy who founded Osirion - he’s not just an explosion on two legs.

but what if he wanted to go bigger?

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pixierose wrote:
Yakman wrote:
pixierose wrote:

I still feel like Sarenrae and Iomedae are pretty safe considering the Iconics that focus on them. The only real way I can see one of them being killed is if we do get a replacement that is taken up their mantle. Or we suddenly get a new iconic cleric and champion, which uh also seems unlikely. Maybe if Player Core 2 was coming after War of The Immortals, but its coming out first.

But then again this is all based off of assumptions that could be way off. Maybe they don't factor that kind of stuff into it, or they have plans in place.

Well... with Player Core 2 coming out, maybe there's a new champion iconic?

It would make some sense as Champion is not the same as Paladin, but Paizo's 2E iconic champion is just an updated 1E iconic Paladin.

Yeah but Player Core 2 comes out *before* War of Immortals, which would mean potentially spoiling the reveal in War of Immortals, or releasing Player Core 2 with Seelah as the Champion Iconic and then, just a few months later getting a new Champion iconic. That was a point of my first post.

nah. just change the iconic to be a champion of some other god entirely.

they changed the iconics for gunslinger, oracle, summoner... what's weird about changing this one? could be for any reason... and it sure will build a bit of suspense, no? we'll know the new champion's deity is likely safe (champion of Abadar might be a good selection)... but the other 19, including saranrae? anything can happen baby!

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pixierose wrote:

I still feel like Sarenrae and Iomedae are pretty safe considering the Iconics that focus on them. The only real way I can see one of them being killed is if we do get a replacement that is taken up their mantle. Or we suddenly get a new iconic cleric and champion, which uh also seems unlikely. Maybe if Player Core 2 was coming after War of The Immortals, but its coming out first.

But then again this is all based off of assumptions that could be way off. Maybe they don't factor that kind of stuff into it, or they have plans in place.

Well... with Player Core 2 coming out, maybe there's a new champion iconic?

It would make some sense as Champion is not the same as Paladin, but Paizo's 2E iconic champion is just an updated 1E iconic Paladin.

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
Asmodeus is, specific portrayals of Asmodeus are stickier.
What's "specific?" Paizo has never, to my knowledge, portrayed Asmodeus as a colossal serpent (though they have done that with Geryon).

yeah, a horned red guy with a rod ain't exactly something that WotC broke creative ground with.

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Morhek wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
And I would argue against Gozreh for two main reasons: If they kick the bucket, you lose the nature-themed deity of the Core-20, and I don't think such a basic concept should force new players to deep dive into the lore to find a god that fits there concept.

Playing devil's advocate, is losing a god of nature really that big a loss when you have druids who get along quite happily without gods at all? If you want to worship nature and protect the natural world, you don't really need Gozreh to do it. You just don't get to be a cleric, but a druid isn't all that different theologically.

MMCJawa wrote:
The other reason would be that...would anyone really care? Gozreh isn't a bad deity exactly, but seems sort of personality-less.
This I agree with. If you're going for dramatic punch, Gozreh is a little too mid-tier to really bother with. It's got to be a major player, or else why bother?

with the change in magic - primal/divine - you don't need Gozreh at all.

Gozreh is boring compared to the elemental lords, and if you want to be a holy man who worships nature, well... that's a druid.

But yeah, b/c Gozreh is boring maybe not the best choice to shake things up if we are knocking off a Core 20... but it would be better of an alignment w/ 2E's magic system.

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

It's basically canon that Pharasma predate the current universe that contains Golarion, Hell, the First World, the Plane of Water, etc. She was specifically the lone survivor of the previous universe.

She's set up the whole system of "souls are how we recycle potentiality to resits the corrosive influence of chaos to break everything down into undifferentiated sludge" since that's probably how the last universe ended and she's trying to prolong this universe as long as possible.

So it's possible that there's some superstructure that contains both this universe, the previous universe, the universe before that, and will contain the next universe. It's just inaccessible to anybody living in this universe (except possibly Pharasma or someone in possession of something Pharasma has.)

or some treasure in Asmodeus' vaults.

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Vorsk, Follower or Erastil wrote:
Honestly, a cover like the one described with the stained glass windows sounds like something honoring events from before. They said at least 1 god kicking it, why not 3 with Asmodeus, Pharasma, and Saranrae all kicking it and us getting 3 new core 20. I feel like a huge shakeup like this is far more likly and a .ore interesting set up. Also allows Noctula to move up and maybe an actual physcopomp ushers like Atropos, who it's been stated Pharamsa has set up to be her replacement, moving to fill the void.

Sarenrae is an interesting choice to kick the bucket. Iomedae is pretty similar already.

I like Asmodeus going away b/c the intrigues of the Archdevils is so fascinating, but I just can't see it... although if that were the future, you could have some amazing APs set in places like Cheliax and Isger, or maybe an Evil AP where the PCs are Hellknights.

Pharasma seems too spot on for Pathfinder to go away. And a psychopomp successor doesn't seem to add too much flavor. Sorta like in Forgotten Realms when Mystra died, then Midnight became the goddess of magic, changed her name to Mystra, and everything was the same.

But, and I dunno if you intended this... but Asmodeus/Pharasma/Sarenrae are probably three of the four gods most associated with the Ravening Beast Rovagug (Zon Kuthon being the fourth). Interesting thought...

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MMCJawa wrote:

I kind of feel with the announcement of Arazni as being promoted, Urgathoa and Pharasma make the most sense.

While Arazni might not be precisely taking the place of whatever deity gets offed, She could fill the thematic hole of those two. Killing most of the other gods would IMHO leave major thematic holes in possible character concepts among the core 20, and while there are minor gods that could "take over" those roles from the player side, it's probably not a great idea for the game to force new players to turn to those.

The biggest issue I see with Urgathoa however is that her demise feels like a "end of arc" event, rather than something that precipitates the story. And I just get a general sense that whichever god is going to buy the farm will do so early in the story.

i think the intent was that she's not assuming the space of the vacated deity.

in which case... there's no direct link to either Pharasma OR Urgathoa, both of whom are pretty well established in the canon... and you can't get rid of Brides of Urgathoa, who are an iconic Pathfinder monster.

As such, I'm once again betting on Gozreh, who isn't in the Starfinder canon and can easily be supplanted by the Elemental Lords.

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