William Ronald's page

We should address a few of the concerns here. I can perhaps deal with the stat block issues but I can see why many are concerned.

Could we have some way to handle a situation where we have players who do not have characters of the appropriate level in a scenario. I am trying to revitalize one location and would like to do more with others. Are there any plans on having a player who does not have any character of an appropriate level accrue benefits for another character. (Let me give two examples. Amanda (fictional player) only has a first level character and the only event scheduled is a 3-4. Meanwhile, a few hundred miles away, Bob (another fictional player) just leveled his character up to 3rd and the local shop is only scheduling a 1-2. Neither Amanda nor Bob have timee to create a character on the fly.

I have to admit that I found the Angry VC suggestion mentioned up thread intriguing.

In this thread, a few people I respect expressed their reservations and concerns. I would like to have us work together as a community to address these concerns. From what I have seen being a part of Organized Play for 15 years, we are stronger and wiser when we work together.

Thank you for sharing your stories and contributing to our hobby!!!! May the day come when all can feel welcome not just at the gaming table but in our world.

May Howard's memory be for a blessing, and may his work continue to inspire others. I enjoyed reading Plague of Shadows and regret that he is no longer with us.

I just moved less than two weeks ago from Los Angeles to Northwest Indiana and I am catching up on things. (I have a new job starting in a few weeks and will catch up on books.)

I have two characters who follow members of the Osiriani pantheon who will have to chose new divine patrons as they are clerics. I understand that the Osiriani pantheon was kind of an oddity for Golarion, and was perhaps never developed that much. (I suspect much was just taken from the OGL.) I can understand removing them as they never quite fit in with the existing pantheon.

However, as someone who has read parts of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the Elder Eddas, the Kalevala, the Mabonogion, the Red Branch of Ulster tales and more works of mythology and legend, I am disappointed that we have no stories on how several figures such as Ra and Horus (my characters' divine patrons) no longer are part of Osirion. Maybe they died due to the efforts of Set or some other power. Perhaps they died achieving some good end. Perhaps (my preference) is that they removed their divine presence from Golarion to help another world that needed them more. (Maybe such a world is something unknown where Ra, Osiris, and the deities of Earth's mythologies were needed to help save it. Golarion might be getting off easy with the Godsrain compared to some places.)

I will have to make some decisions but I am somewhat disappointed. I expect good stories from Paizo. However, a brief announcement that Ra, Horus and others are no longer in the setting reminds me of the bored yawn I gave when I learned that in the Forgotten Realms, Ra was slain by the orc god Gruumsh in the Time of Troubles. (I was unimpressed and thought it made little sense as there was no history between the deities. Perhaps that is the problem that many deities associated with Earth have in Golarion -- no interaction with others.) Also, I find the lack of connection among Golarion's deities somewhat puzzling. In the real world, people form communities. Instead, I see little connection or relationship among deities in Golarion like there was in many historical faiths on Earth. (Except for the dwarven pantheon, famileis and close relationships seem limited to Shizuru and Tsukiyo in Tien Xia and the Prismatic Ray in the Innner Sea region.)

Well, I will be busy with a few things here but I hope that we will get some good stories out of the Godsrain. (I find the Time of Troubles in the Realms to be unimpressive and hopes that Paizo will tell better stories.)

Join us at Odyssey Games, 1795 E Colorado Blvd, Pasadena, CA 91106, at 11 AM on August 24, 2024 for Pathfinder Society Organized Play

We will offer the following adventure for Pathfinder Second Edition and Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

11 AM - 4 PM - PFS2 2-13- A Gilded Test, an adventure for characters of levels 1--4.

Pre-generated characters will be available for those who wish to play but do not create a character. Players with existing characters of levels 1-4 are welcome as well.

To learn more about each adventure or preregister for an event, please visit the Los Angeles Pathfinder and Starfinder Society Warhorn page.

Congratulations to Lucas as well as everyone else.

Congratulations to Angie Valente, who is doing a tremendous job in Chicagoland and Northwest Indiana. She has come a long way from her first PFS game with me and has continually stepped up as a player, a GM, and a leader in Organized Play.

Congratulations to Jim Fleury, Cordell Kintner, Mike Bramnik, and Jason Kelly!!!

Happy Bride Month!!!! Thank you for sharing your stories and trying to make sure that gaming tables are friendly to everyone -- regardless of how you identify yourself. I hope that Paizo will continue to represent many different groups of people and that we can learn form each other and support each other.

I am sorry, but I don't think I ever would have used the word clueless to describe Quinn.

It is important to reflect on this day. The fight for freedom and equality is far from over. It is only by learning about each other and history that we can begin to understand each other.

Part of the messiness here is the factions and the schools now occupy the same "space" lorewise.

They were initially semi official groups trying to dominate the society and then became fraternities vying for society resources and now are like...social clubs for agents of similar persuasion?

Its gotten lost in the sauce completely and the idea of the thing here has gotten all muddled and the LO book for PFS is easily the weakest one as a result.

Toss in the 10 and the various semi redundant VOs (why do we have 3 VCs in the same city in Qadira now and why are they operating in Jalmeray?) and yeh its not something most people have a way to connect to now.

Perhaps there will be a bit of a shakeup in the coming season.

I think that it pays to make many of the major NPCs memorable. This way, players will have their characters forming a stronger connection to the Society and its leaders.

If something major happens to a venture captain, a member of the Decemvirate, or a faction leader, it should be something that the characters care about. (I thought that the last special for First Edition was memorable. The question I find myself asking is if one of the major leaders or figures passed, who would care?)

May Gary's memory be for a blessing. May the community he helped build keep him and those dear to him close to their hearts.

I enjoyed learning more about the authors and look forward to picking up the book at my local gaming shop.

The Raven Black wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

One thing I've said before that I especially like with the mythological inconsistencies is that you're not bound to pick only one myth that's "true". Like, Windsong talks like each of the first gods sprang fully formed, but it's not important to the myth to highlight how exactly each appeared, so maybe Asmodeus' account us accurate about each of them forming out of motes of light, and at one point Sarenrae was both one of the first eight but the first eight were also just a bunch of demigods for the first thousand years while they grew in power.

Meanwhile, that Asmodeus formed in tandem with Hell doesn't necessarily preclude the story that he much later 'discovered' Hell filled with asura and conquered it for his own devices one day while having a disagreement with his brother that even later capitulated into him taking a host of angels with him to become the first devils.

This is 100% exactly the point. Pick the one that works best for you and run with it!

That said, it DOES get tricky when the one picking the one that works best is, say, me, and I'm picking it because I'm developing or writing an adventure that's based on some of that mythology. That sort of thing does, in time, start to lend facts to the mythology, but... that's I guess part of the cost of publishing stuff that builds on previously published stuff.

If the fate of the drow has shown us anything, it's that even stuff published in adventures isn't set in stone.

I think (and hope) Paizo being forced to do this will be a once in a lifetime event.

It's the third time Paizo has had to do a big shift as a result of being dependent on another company, and in the grand scheme of things was the simplest one to pull off (the other two being losing the Dragon and Dungeon magazine licenses resulting in the creation of the Pathfinder brand and Pathfinder Adventure Path, and 4th edition not being friendly to the...

Let's hope that the third time is the charm.

I remember reading the posts that James Jacobs wrote which dealt with having to eliminate OGL creatures and concepts, especially the drow. This was not easy for him or others at Paizo. (Apparently, something will be done with the drow in Starfinder, but that is a different continuity. Perhaps the results of that can feed back into Pathfinder. The problem is creating a group of "dark elves" - a very old concept in some cultures on our world, such as the Norse culture - that does not look like something that a certain company to be named cannot have their lawyers file a lawsuit over and have the threat of a lawsuit bring Paizo to a grinding halt.)

Fortunately, I see my players and GMs liking the changes in the Remaster. Also, it seems that there will be ample opportunities for players to have their characters experience the impact of the War of the Immortals and shape events. I look forward to not only the books and adventures, but hearing how people are interacting with the events of the Godsrain and beyond.

This death has interesting implications for the Starfinder setting.

Previously, Rovagug and Torag were the only deities positively identified as being absent in the Starfinder setting (but probably alive on Old Golarion, if I have read the clues correctly).

Many of us mistakenly assumed that all of the other deities were still alive and present, just a lot less popular. Clearly that is not the case -- we cannot assume that any deity not mentioned in Starfinder material is alive or dead at that point. But I guess that matters less in a setting with no clerics receiving their spells directly from deities.

Paizo has started that Starfinder is a different continutity. In old terms of another game, it would be a future version of alternate prime material plane. Or in Pathfinder terms, an alternate Multiverse set int he future. (It is a sepearte continuity but I think my comparison is apt.)

Will The First Blade be stepping up as Gorum’s “inheritor”? Will it be available to select as a deity in lieu of its former lord?

I imagine that there will be some hints as to where the worshippers of Gorum will go.

In Osirion, the Osiriani goddess Sekhmet might be a good option. I played with someone who had a war priest of the Lady of Slaughter. Ragathiel and some empyreal lords might gain worshippers. Similarly, some may turn to Calistria for the sake of vengeance.

Thank you to all the amazing women (as well as everyone period) at Paizo who have contributed to our hobby.

As a GM, I concur with the points that Caryn DiMarco and Sasha Lorvana Harving make about inclusivity. I try to make my tables welcome to everyone, as we can benefit from the diverse views and experiences of others.

Thank you for sharing your stories and all of your hard work. I look forward to seeing your future contributions to our hobby.

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

Starfinder is a separate continuity, so it's not relevant here in terms of what's happening in Pathfinder. :)

Is that still the case with Starfinder 2nd Edition?

As for my reasoning for Torag, is the number of clues dropped by Luis that point toward him, and the OGL fiasco. Even though the OGL had no bearing on who it would be. However, those clues could be discussion generators rather than pointing to the god who will pass on.

Hmm, looking over the Core 20, the god with the most narrative impact and has a direct connection to D&D is Asmodeus.

Perhaps, Sarenrae does the unthinkable and kills him? This would check off three boxes: Kill a major god that has narrative and thematic weight, possibly alter the Prismatic Ray in some form, and fulfill the removal of OGL ties.

I hope that it is Asmodeus who dies. He has been steadily elevated since D&D's earliest days to move from being the chief of archdevils to a greater god. (He is not that impressive in the original work that he appears in, the Book of Tophit. I suspect that E. Gary Gygax put him at the top of the hierarchy of Hell as he was more obscure than some other figures.) He is tied into D&D's lore and removing him would sever ties. It would also (pun intended) create a hell of a situation with Cheliax as some infernal pacts would be negated, and there would be struggles in the nation that could lead to civil war or a lot of turmoil. Who would come out on top in the hierarchies of Hell, and what would the death of Asmodeus (perhaps by a known god or by unknown forces) mean for Cheliax, the Hellknights, and others? Would Rahadoum be emboldened to reclaim its lost territory and decry the followers of deities? Or would their moves backfire horribly on them? There are many narrative possibilities, so I hope that the decision that Paizo makes leads to many interesting narrative possibilities where characters - whether in Organized Play or elsewhere - will have chances to help shape what comes in the aftermath of the death of a god. It should be impactful, as Aroden's death was. For now, I expect that many are eagerly waiting future entries in this series.

Other deities will be impacted as well. Perhaps Torag -- assuming that he survives - will change further. Perhaps the loss of a fellow deity will bring the members of the Prismatic Ray closer. Perhaps Zon-Kuthon will make more overtures into Cheliax. Or others might step up as patrons to Cheliax. (Set comes to mind and this may create a rivalry between Cheliax and Osirion.) The future is uncertain, and Golarion may be in more need of heroes than it has in a very long time.

Welcome!!!

Pathfinder Second Edition now allows players to choose floating bonuses rather than traditional penalties for ancestries. (For example, a player creating an elf character can instead of taking a bonus to intelligence, a bonus to dexterity, a free attribute boost, and a penalty to constitution can instead opt to take a bonus to any two ability scores, much like a human character.)

Will this apply to Pathfinder Second Edition?

Skittermanders will be in the Starfinder Playtest Rulebook!!!!

Regardless of class, your preexisting characters will remain valid. You have the option to make changes using the Remaster rules.

The Player Core and the GM Core will be part of the Core assumption. So, Archives of Nethys is a valid option for players to use for any character from the Core Rulebook or the Player Core.

Paizo could have gone the route of making the new rules a completely new edition or calling it such. It may have even helped sales. However, I think it is comforting that you can change or not change your characters as you desire.

A year ago, none of us dreamed of the OGL debacle or the Remaster. I think that there has been a great deal of effort to make this as smooth a transition as possible. Paizo will not hire a private police force to demand you turn in your old books.

Thank you for sharing. It is important that we learn each other's stories in order to try to understand and appreciate each other.

Also, I hope to see Paizo take time to develop Arcadia. (I wonder what the Mahwek and others native to that continent in Golarion call it.)

As a Jewish gamer, I am pleased to see how members of my faith and community have helped contribute to gaming. Let me wish everyone L'shanah tovah!!! G'mar chatimah tovah!!!! (A Happy New Year!!! May you be sealed for a good year!!!!)

Dragon Nexus Games wrote:

13th century mythology is public domain like the Bible is. You don't need to be a lawyer. The description of drows used by TSR / WotC is public domain. D&D's drow is essentially, the Dökkálfar as written and described in Prose Edda.

So I'm confused, do you think Paizos lawyers are just bad at their job then? Because you, not a lawyer, are saying with absolute certainty the opposite of what Paizo has been advised. Generally, I feel that most people, when seeking actual, real legal advice are probably advised to listen to actual, real lawyers and not people whose companies have gone into administrative dissolution just to throw out a random entirely unrelated example, maybe that's just me though.

Having read the Eddas, I don't recall the Dökkálfar as being clad in leather, ruled by matriarchs, devoted to evil powers, and being utterly immoral and evil. (The physical appearance is something that you cannot copyright, as have seen with Dark Elves in other companies. Anything resembling what WoTC did.... that is another story.) WoTC took time to craft something off of a concept in the Eddas and Paizo will create something different with the inhabitants of Apostae. Perhaps one day, some will make their way to Golarion in another era.

However, keeping anything far from WotC's intellectual property is a good idea. Even if Paizo or another company did something that WotC could claim as a copyright infringement, the threat of a lawsuit is nothing anyone wants. (Indeed, some companies can file suits to bankrupt their competitors who have fewer resources. As the inhabitants of Apostae might say, money is power and might makes right.)

Technically, I got the info I needed from Thurston. The exact details we don't need to go into anyway. The drows aren't being removed. Maybe renamed if necessary but not going away. So if they aren't extinct then it won't be an issue for what I am working on in the details. Going over canon details from the PF and SF core books and all... so things will playout just fine.

I figured that they were doing something with Apostae. Making the inhabitants more corporate will separate them further from someone else's intellectual property.

I look forward to the changes. Perhaps there will be more flexibility for companies with future Starfinder products. (Hmm, would having a disreputable mercenary force that is an anagram of Pinkerton be protected parody?)

Dragon Nexus Games wrote:

MaxAstro wrote:

Ezekieru wrote:

And doing so with previously published third party products for Pathfinder and Starfinder would do wonders more in helping you get your foot in the door than sending a reply to Thurston offering to sign an vague NDA.

Also, if I can offer some unsolicited advice: Asking for an NDA like that screams "I'm an amateur". It does not present the level of professionalism you are looking for.

Novice writers are forever worried about people "stealing their ideas". Experienced writers know that ideas literally aren't worth the paper they are written on; only execution has value. No one is going to steal your ideas, no one wants to steal your ideas, and publicly worrying about your ideas being stolen really just marks you as inexperienced.

People steal ideas every day, literally. If they take your unpublished work and register it before you, your screwed even if you may have wrote it unless you are deep pocket person or corporation. It happens every single day. You'll have to spend well over $10,000, easily over $100,000 in lawyers and court fees with just a maybe you might win but could still lose.

Yes, I have a number of stuff on this project I'm working on that is not published yet and not registered because its not finished and complete. I'm sure they have reasonable concern for keeping wraps stuff that is WIP.

In addition, there is this thing called private messaging. Is there some reason that is not being used at all? Is it broken?

If ideas had absolutely no value, there would not be copyright laws. Yes, execution matters but someone can steal your WIP near completion, and register it before you and they market it. They get the money, the credit, and IP rights and you don't. Rich people and businesses without any creative bone in their body has gotten away with that for over a century and still do.

It's not just "novice writers". It's also experienced writers who don't have a lot...

I imagine that many of the people you might wish to contact are at GenCon and have limited time to be online. Perhaps try to reach out to people privately after the convention and see if you can establish a working professional relationship. (Writing something for Organized Play has helped some people move on to bigger projects.) It takes time to establish a relationship, professional or otherwise.

Thurston Hillman wrote:

Sigh.

The cantina is not closing. The sky is not falling.

Not even for holidays? It might be time to start a bartenders union. "Skittermander time to change your protest signs."

My hope is that we will see more species/ancestries. Fortunately, there is time for a lot of work on this.

Thanks, keftiu and Evan Tarlson!!!!

Will the panels that some employers are participating in be available on YouTube after Gen Con? They sound very interesting as well.

If this is what it takes for Starfinder brand to survive then so be it but I am not thrilled by having the setting be a subsystem of PF2e because then it may well become Pathfinder in SPAAAACCEEE rather than its own distinct brand. Still, on the optimistic side, making Starfinder 2E compatible with PF2e can open doors for cross-play, broader story arcs, and a unified player base. Time will tell.

Perhaps the leadership at Paizo has a concern that too many systems can be a problem. This was one of the problems that TSR faced. I highly recommend reading Ryan Dancey's letter on The Death of TSR is well worth a read.

The OGL debacle may have pushed up the timetable for Starfinder Second Edition. I will feel a bit more comfortable if everything is under the ORC license.

Starfinders point buy system decoupled from class and only tangentally related to theme gave builds a lot of freedom. Pathfinder 2's tight math combined with racial and class based "boosts" means you just wind up being worse if you don't go with the stereotype.

An errata for the Pathfinder Core Rulebook printing in January allows players to take two free-floating bonuses for an ancestry. So, you may be able to have a shirren with and 18 charaisma working with an elven soldier with an 18 con.

I thought I would start a thread where we can share our wishes and concerns for Starfinder Second Editio and the playtest.

Let me share my Starfinder experience. I am a venture agent in Paizo's Organized Play. I have run my mystic shirren Vir Kah'to to 5th level. I GMed the Starfinder mod for Free RPG Day last year. (I struggled with starship combat and even as a player find it less than intuitive.)

My hope is not just for a better starship combat system, but for a game system that will attract more players. We had some SFS games at the shop that I am active in, but they stopped. We had only two regular players. I also want a system that is easier to learn and GM.

So, who are you and what do you want? (To paraphrase Lorien from Babylon 5.)

Milo v3 wrote:

As a person who liked starfinder, finding out it's going to just be a supplement line for PF2e is abit disappointing. Since 1 to 1 compatibility just means the game will have loads of things from Pathfinder that don't mesh with the game's pitch, just because it is in Pathfinder.

At least the old books wont be going anywhere, but I was hoping when a SF 2e happened that it'd be an evolution of Starfinder.

That is a fair point, though from taking a look at the Soldier playtest the team seems to be willing to take a look at design spaces outside of what PF2E did thus far. The introduction of new conditions also bodes well for making the system work.

I do think Paizo's decision is healthier from a company standpoint though, and as someone who likes Starfinder for the setting and the writing that has been done for it, I am glad that this opens up more resources for that.

Paizo's leadership no doubts remembers the problems that TSR had in having so many games with different systems. I recommend reading Ryan Dancey's letter on the death of TSR. I believe it should be mandatory reading for business courses.

Can we have boons for rare languages, like Ancient Osiriani? This might be good for characters who are linguists/diplomats or have a background that relates to a rare language -- such as a duskwalker whose previous life was in Ancient Osirion and now finds himself in an unfamilar time and body? Or someone whose traditions relate to an ancient culture might want to study the language.

I would like to thank the authors for sharing their stories and the stories of their characters.

So far, I have known three people who have transitioned - including one who was a regular at my gaming table. The key thing that everyone wants is respect, support, and understanding. Somehow, despite all the troubles of our time, I think that future generations will see it for all people.

Thank you for posting this.

May we continue to strive to respect and understand each other.

Happy Pride Month!!! Thank all of you for sharing your stories. My hope is that sharing your stories will help others on their journeys.

It may be possible to introduce a version of Starfinder's "dark Elves" to Golarion but they have to be created first and introduced, or reintroduced. Perhaps the new version had a base here and there on Golarion if they came from elsewhere.

However, Paizo, Kobold Press, and others are acting NOW to separate themselves from the OGL. I suspect it is not a conspiracy to honk off some gamers, but rather fear of legal action but a MULTI-BILLION dollar corporation. So, somethings have to be changed.

The drow are problematic as they still resemble those of Dungeons and Dragons closely. Someone asked why they weren't changed with Pathfinder Second Edition. First, there was no need as the OGL was considered to be an inviolable document that could not be revoked and the thought of threats to revoke it were not considered by Paizo or others. Secondly, changing the drow rapidly would likely result in something that might not only fail to meet legal muster to avoid potential lawsuits but would be a rush job. Thirdly, Paizo (and others) have bigger things to consider.

While drow have appeared in some APs and even some Pathfinder Society first edition products they do not figure as prominently as they do in the Forgotten Realms. Show Hasbro a drow that is very like their intellectual property, and expect a lawsuit. There are questions if companies the size of Paizo could survive the lead-up to a court decision in a lawsuit. So, it is better to avoid anything that even remotely appears to be like the drow of old.

Long ago, I learned that you can't please everyone. This is going to be the case with the remaster. However, the events of the past few months have made a remaster necessary for Pathfinder Second Edition and led Kobold Press to hurry up their work on their own system. The irrevocable agreement has been threatened with revocation and the backtracking by Hasbro may just be a temporary measure. In a sense, creating anything under the OGL has become much like playing in a rigged game. The best thing to do under such circumstances is to move on and walk away, even if it is painful to people. Obviously, it is painful to some gamers and even game designers. Sometimes, I think that we forget that there are other people on the other end of the keyboard. Let's try to respect each other and have compassion for each other.

The third version of the AxE says that you can put CC-BY-licensed material into a product released under the ORC license.

If so, I'm really puzzled as to why Paizo isn't just helping itself to chromatic dragons, glabrezu, duergar, aboleths, alignment, drow, etc, etc, just by releasing a new version of PF under an ORC license that uses elements of SRD 5.1 under its CC-BY license, rather than doing this huge expunging project. Their own lawyers seem to say that's okay.

Even if Paizo might have solid legal ground to do so, Hasbro could still drag them through an expensive legal process. There has been some discussion about drow in particular in the Pathfinder General Discussion forum.

This post form James Jacobs may help explain some of Paizo's reasoning: James Jacobs on Paizo's history with the drow.

@ especially in Against the Giants and the Spider Queen series, they were an unknown foe (even if hints were placed in some versions of the Slave Lords modules/compilation).

I don't think you can easily reinvent the drow into something people will accept as a good replacement for the drow of old. The Starfinder team has their work cut out for them to deal with drow in that setting, as Starfinder will ultimately go under the ORC license. I don't think anything can be done in the near future. Even then, Hasbro could still take legal action against drow in a fantasy setting. It doesn't matter if they win. They may tie up enough resources to make Paizo or any other company go bankrupt before a court can rule on whether there was an infringement of Hasbro's intellectual property.

Having played the Slave Lords, the Giant Series, Descent into the Depths of the Earth, and Queen of the Demon Web Pits, I found the drow to be very scary villains. Not only were they powerful, one could not reason with them as they were convinced of their own superiority. The Sekmin can easily fill the role of powerful, implacable enemies without making Hasbro call their lawyers.

James Jacobs wrote:

Jacob Jett wrote:

Indirectly related, but does anyone know if Xulgath are getting the boot? I'm asking because Palladium Fantasy has had Troglodytes since well before the OGL and SRD were even faint glimmers in anyone's brain.

They aren't. Unlike drow, which have an extensive history being built up to things that folks adore by D&D over decades, troglodytes haven't.

Furthermore, by calling them xulgath (a name I invented for lizard people in my homebrew back in the late 80s, and that I transitioned over to Pathfinder to be the ancestral name for the creatures we once called troglodytes in previous editions), and by building up our own different lore about them, and by giving them a different coloration and look, what we call a xulgath and what WotC calls a troglodyte are not really the same thing anymore.

At this time in Pathfinder, if we call something a troglodyte, we would simply be using the word in the context of its real-world definition, not as an underground lizard person. And since so many gamers have been conditioned to assume that's what a fantasy TTRPG means when they use the word troglodyte... we'll likely just avoid using the word entirely just to not confuse folks.

If we'd done the same thing to drow, and had started that ages ago, and if there wasn't decades of pre-existing fandom for this exact combination of elements in an underground-dwelling evil elf society... perhaps we'd be in a different spot today. We are not in that spot.

In time, the work we put in to drow to begin the process of transitioning them away from the D&D tropes that most gamers want and adore and that we don't want to pursue in a non-OGL product (for example, underground elves who worship proteans) may well be transposed onto the cavern elves (an element that, at this point, is VERY underdeveloped and in current print exists only as a way to give your elf PC darkvision), but that'll be something we

...

I am sure that Paizo could do something with an entirely different sort of creature. The drow were made to be overly powerful, but as a student of literature and history, I do not recall the dark elves of the Eddas resembling the drow in significant ways. Nor do I seem to recall running across anything that looked like and worked like the drow in Orlando Furioso or The Faerie Queen.

Maybe some sort of evil fey might work, but anything that is too close to the traditional portrayal of drow probably will be a call for legal action from Hasbro. Even the threat of legal action by a huge corporation would be enough to tie up the resources of publishers the size of Paizo or Kobold Press.

Inarea wrote:

Will be interesting long term how devesting DnD analogies will impact the recent converts from wotc latest "screwups". A big selling point was "it's DnD but better rules and company".

I'd be more concerned about the remaster existing at all. I have already heard complaints from folks angry they bought a bunch of books that they feel will be rendered useless in less than a year. I think scrapping DnD iconography won't really be noticed much at all, other than some folks really obsessed with certain options like Drow.

All existing books are usable and will be so. If you want the remaster material, there will be a FREE download updating the changes.

It isn't like Paizo, Kobold Press, and other companies really wanted to upend their product schedules by having to make major changes to avoid potential legal action.

As for some of the lore, well I gave up beholders and illithid when I went to Pathfinder First Edition.

Pronate11 wrote:

Jacob Jett wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Paizo's original top management (and owners) identified early on that supporting concurrent settings that were cannibalizing each other was one of the pitfalls they had to absolutely avoid.

I do not think they will change this stance.

Weird. It's not a bug in D&D and they don't cannibalize each other a bit (and never did)...

Have you seen what's happened with all the latest DND setting releases? Do you really want Paizo to release their own 5e Spelljammer? Or Strikshaven? Or literally any of their other setting books?

I've been hoping for a pf2e spelljammer equivalent so much. That would be awesome and a lot better of a product I'm sure.

I would recommend Starfinder. It already fits the Pathfinder in space feel.

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Inarea wrote:

Will be interesting long term how devesting DnD analogies will impact the recent converts from wotc latest "screwups". A big selling point was "it's DnD but better rules and company".

Sure, I'll remind you of this post in five years or so, I hope you'll be around to respond.

Probably not. This is probably the one decision that could have got me to switch systems. Been beating the drum to get my friends to join me in pf2e, dutifully buying all the hard bound products since the core came out, even if they didn't interest me, because I was "supporting the product" waiting for the day it would be the underdark's time.

If I'm not egging my friend group on to Pf2e we'll probably be back to 5e or maaaybe pf1e.

We will have a clear idea in November and some previews before then. Remember, you can have anything at your own table.

I imagine that once the remaster comes out, someone will work up a version of drow for people to use at home. They should be fine so long as they don't make a penny off of it.

Scott Henry wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Scott Henry wrote:

I thought drow actually still existed in Pathfinder, they just aren't doing new stories about them? How do we know this won't happen to other races though, like say Tieflings?

That's literally what all these conversations going on are about.

Also Tiefling are "going away", the name is gone and they're rolled into Nephilim with the other Planar Scions.

So they still exist, just under a different name? I don't want to see Tieflings go away completely. Change the name? Fine. Can't play a demon looking person anymore? Not fine.

Can ABSOLUTELY play a demonblooded/descended/looking person.

Just can't call them Tieflings.

Heck, you can even play a demonblooded/descended cavern elf or a fleshwarped cavern elf.

Scott Henry wrote:

I thought drow actually still existed in Pathfinder, they just aren't doing new stories about them?

That's exactly right.

Quote:

How do we know this won't happen to other races though, like say Tieflings?

In the future, Paizo (and other companies) will be publishing their material under the ORC license. Unlike the OGL, which is controlled by Hasbro/WotC, the ORC license will be controlled by a non-profit. It has also been deliberately written to prevent any company from suddenly threatening to terminate the license.

So, once the four primary Paizo rules books (Player Core 1, Game Master Core, Monster Core, Player Core 2) have been published, all the changes will have worked their way through the publishing process. There won't be any ancestries left that have any connection to Hasbro.

After that, it can't happen with other ancestries, because there will be a very clear separation between what is Paizo's intellectual property (other people can't use it without specific permission from Paizo) and the Open RPG Creative material that anyone is free to use.

It will take a couple years, but going forward, no one will be able to threaten ttRPG companies with expensive lawsuits for using publicly shared materials.

Also, nothing is preventing GMs and players from using whatever they wish at their tables.

I think we will see a lot more creativity from Paizo, Kobold Press, and others because they can no longer harken back to anything produced under the OGL. I will miss what goes, but I would rather see Paizo and Kobold Press offering new products than fighting for their existence in court.

Fallenath wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Since Ancestries are not as loaded with stuff as races used to be (i.e. you're not getting a bunch of SLAs at low levels anymore). It shouldn't be too hard for people who are so inclined. All you need is the base array of move speed, attribute bonuses/penalties, vision, and any special things (light sensitivity?), then some heritages, and some feats. There's enough other ancestries out there that you can use for a model for "what effects are reasonable for a heritage or feat at a given level."

As for whether Second Darkness is still canon, I think "there used to be Drow, but they disappeared under mysterious circumstances" is a more interesting plot thread, but I understand why Paizo wouldn't want to commit to it.

tbh Im starting to feel a lot of these changes are more them airing out their grievances with a lot of innate dnd things, and trying to make pathfinders IP "their own", and are using the OGL thing as a excuse(that doesnt really hold up well) Like makign up a bunch of dark elves isnt hard or conflicting at all, its a lose idea wotc even without the OGL cant really sue you over it.

The reality is i get they want their own entire ip to be unique and distinct, but at this point you have to realize you built 2 games built on this foundation and the more you try to push again that the more issues you will make.

I think its time to face a harsher reality, which is that.

Its time for PF3e and its time for Golarion in general to go, or be entirely rebooted.

The writers clearly disagree with you, and claiming they're lying about their motivations is really uncharitable.

When a game company is talking to its lawyers about someone else's intellectual property and how to avoid legal action, they are in a position where making changes to avoid a lawsuit. Based on what I have seen, I see no evidence that they are lying about their motivations. Rather, I have seen people post about how hard it was to make difficult decisions. I do not envy anyone right now who has made anything with the OGL. They have to figure out how to move forward when Hasbro could come back and decide to take action against them. We have to remember that the people in these companies have lives and livelihoods, and have to decide what is best not just for their companies but for themselves.

Before the OGL controversy, Paizo was considering how to present its products. Now, Paizo, Kobold Press. and other companies are working on games and products that move away from the OGL. Realistically, none of them want to tie up their resources in a potential legal battle.

I will miss the drow as I have played with people who had drow characters as far back as AD&D First Edition. However, I have faith that James Jacobs and other developers are trying to make the best of a situation that they did not imagine happening less than a year ago.

All they had to do was state how the drow left the planet to the planet they control in Starfinder, then add a reason why and make that the new big enemy in the Darklands.

That's it, nobody can claim that WotC has ownership of evil space elves, else they should delete normal elves which are also space elves. Getting rid of them wholesale is the worst option.

Perhaps. However, they could argue that they do have ownership of the evil elves who look like their intellectual property, live in matriarchal societies, and worship demons. Even if Hasbro lost in court, the threat of legal action could be enough to greatly harm Paizo.