The Producer's page

Update in a few hours!

Thanks for letting me know Yark. I'll try to accommodate best I can, but if you can't post regularly, I'll just DMPC your actions until things stabilize for you.

@LazarX. I understand that that is the argument, but it is not written like that.

All I'm asking is that they put in a line of text to clarify it in the Outsider section, like they did in the Humanoid section.

Look if an outsider does not have HD then it does not have the proficiency, just as it does not have the skill points. Every oth HD outsider that has ever been stated follows that "rule".

I understand that is the currently stated intent by the developers, but the rules do not read that way, in any instance, unless the reader ignores some sections and liberally interprets others.

A simple line of text in the Outsider entry would fix that.

All of those have entries explaining what characters using those races get. That overrides the other stuff.

PRD wrote:

Race, Class, and Level: Some monsters do not possess racial Hit Dice and are instead defined by their class levels. For these monsters, their race, class, and level appear here. Unless otherwise noted, the first class listed is the class chosen by the monster as its favored class.

[/quote=PRD]Native Subtype: This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

Native outsiders are not true outsiders so they do not get everything an outsider does.

-

As per the rules for adding class levels to monsters, regardless of whether they possessed racial HD or not, this is not true.

It may have been the intent, and then forgotten about, but the rules do not support it, as written.

The bit about needing to eat and sleep is just that, and has nothing to do with the other Outsider Traits. The Racial Traits listed for tieflings, aasimars, oreads, ifrits, etc., are in addition to their Outsider (native) Traits. They have Outsider Traits, modified by the (native) subtype, and then their Racial Traits come into play, just like every other creature in the game.

The context is that I am running a game with the 0HD outsider races as player options, and a number of players seem to consider them suboptimal choices. When I pointed out that they all got free simple/martial proficiency, a player pointed me to the boards, and the Devs saying that wasn't so... even though the rules clearly say it is so.

So I guess what my problem is, after all the revisions, why hasn't the text been changed in all of the above areas? Why is Humanoid spelled out explicitly, and Outsider is not? Why is adding class levels to a 0HD creature supposed to be the same as adding them to creatures with racial HD, except in the instance of 0HD native Outsiders that are allowed as PC races, according to the developers on the boards?

I guess, for closure, I'd like the RAW to reflect the RAI, as they do not, and this is a big deal for players and DMs alike, when the RAW are important.

I skimmed through this thread. It was one of the more comprehensive arguments, despite obvious tempers flaring, but it still did not address a few of my above points on either side of the discussion.

Without the above references, the Devs could easily say "not RAI" and one could side with them relatively easily, but the rules in multiple parts of the book indicate either gross oversight, or a more recent change to RAI. If the latter, it'd be easier to just say, "yeah, at first we thought they should get the proficiencies, as written and not made exception to, but we've since changed our minds and plan to errata it." Instead of using the "common sense" defense, which is honestly a little insulting to some of us to whom it is [i]not[/i[ common sense.

Outsider weapon proficiencies.

I have to ask, because I only recently was brought into the loop about the developers chiming in on the boards.

And I've not seen any arguments citing page 297 of the Bestiary, or the difference between creature type Traits and racial Traits.

Whether it was an innocent oversight, a ret-con, or a holdover from a previous playtest version, the rules in multiple places support creatures/players with the Outsider type as being proficient with simple and martial weapons. This is coming from a DM perspective, not a player perspective.

I finally found the bit of text that made me think that the "Outsiders without racial HD do not get weapon proficiencies" is a more recent trend in thought from the original design intent.

On page 297 of the Bestiary, Section 2: Add Class Levels, last two sentences of paragraph 2 reads as follows: "If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice."

I interpret this plainly: A. simple/martial weapon proficiency is a class feature granted to Outsiders that stacks with levels in a class, and B. (inversely stated) adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice is just like adding class levels to a creature with racial Hit Dice. Either way, weapon proficiencies granted by creature type stack with class levels, unless errata changes either this passage, the text of the Outsider type, or the individual races' descriptions. I would prefer systemic change if the Devs truly feel this is a balance issue.

And most telling as to the design's original intent, is the Outsider text on page 309 of the Bestiary. Weapon/armor proficiencies are listed under Traits, not above the traits section where the rules for HD-based statistics are derived. The Traits clearly do not get negated by taking class levels, regardless of Hit Dice (or lack thereof). These creature type traits are not replaced by their racial traits. Their racial traits are in addition to their Outsider traits, just like any other Outsider's individual racial traits are in addition to their Outsider traits.

Also, as mentioned on the boards elsewhere, Humanoids have an exception written into their type, very explicitly, whereas Outsiders do not:
"Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. ... Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type." (page 308 of the Bestiary)

This came up in a PbP recruitment thread I started, and a player enlightened me to this whole other way of looking at 0HD Outsider races. They seem to be the only exemption, and an odd one at that.

Yark, you should probably pick an icon in order to show your face to your adoring audiences.

"Talk to Kalir and see what he thinks, then get back to me in a day or two. We still have time."

Crugnok, did you put your favored class bonus into HP or Skill ranks?

"Think they'll be ready for that right out the door?"

Mithral armor includes the masterwork cost, as per the entry on mithril items.

Apologies about the bows, I somehow missed that bit, tacked onto the end of the wepon description.

Feel free to save unspent money. It can be used to purchase other items in the future, when you win matches and gain gold.

Raventhorn: Check your math. It appears as if you have a spare 1,000 gp to spend.

Also, why is your Strength listed as 14/16?

Twang, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization do not apply to both Longbows and Composite Longbows. Pick one or the other (unless the Longbow entry is a typo).

Assuming you have a second composite longbow, and not a longbow, your total wealth spent appears to be 11,850 gp. Please notate remaining funds, or spend them.

Also, please check your carrying capacity. You have a Strength of 10 and a lot of gear to lug around. It may reduce your speed if you're over your light load.

Raventhorn: Snake Fang would require the Attack of Opportunity feat to function, but Panther Style would not (though it would be dependent upon another creature having that feat).

Will we gain gold during this game or reset our ammo? If not, I'll need to change my sheet to buy extra ammo. I can make a thrower type who does damage with Strength if everyone thinks that necessary. A barbarian hurler or something like that.

Each successful match you'll earn an increasing percentage of your wealth by level. You all start a little elevated. Consider it a signing bonus. Between matches you'll be able to resupply and replenish expendables. Keep track of ammo.

Also, Twang, what's a "Fighter Barbarian?"

"Oh, and if anyone needs to communicate out-of-character here during a match, feel free. Just do not bold your text. Bold text is to be used only for in-character dialogue"

Like this. OOC text is also acceptable, but not necessary unless you're in the gameplay forum.

Narrative text should also use unmodified text, like this.

"Make sure the gates to the beast pens don't stick in the desert arena like they did last season."

"Thanks Jhock. Feel free to keep helping to form a team here, or head over to the Backstage lounge (The discussion forum). Once the team's assembled, We'll have you all head over there for orientation."

"Okay folks, this is where you'll be spending your downtime between matches. We make every effort to take care of our stars, and perks get better the better the ratings."

"You'll find a comfortable common room, with lounge, wet bar, and butler service, as well as a gym, training rooms, spacious lavatories, a sauna, sound booths, dressing rooms, and most other accommodations you can think of."

"Feel free to work with wardrobe if you're in need of some flair. You know, colorful outfits masks, stylized helmets, tattoos, banners, and the like."

"The Announcer will handle most of your needs once the show is underway, but I'll pop in from time to time to see how things are going."

"If by "plethora," you mean "parts of 5 books," then go ahead. We're still casting for this season."

"The ratings indicate a favorable audience reaction to a brute-themed team, but be wary that many of your rivals have varied tactics, or unique gimmicks."

This season, we also have new rules governing death to try with the play by post format. If you die, you are resurrected with no reward (if your team wins, it does not count as a win for you toward leveling up). The network brings you back to life twice. once you die a third time, your soul is left to its fate, and your corpse reanimated as a zombie for the games.

Make sure to list your rage/non-rage stats, not just one or the other.

And we now have two submissions, both invulnerable ragers.

Submissions will be taken until 10 pm, January 5th, unless we can get a full team sooner.

There will be no Attacks of Opportunity, at all, without that feat.

So, if you shoot bow adjacent to a melee foe, and they don't have that feat, no AoO.

Combat Reflexes, and similar feats/abilities will not exist. If there are feats that have secondary effects, I'll alter them as needed.

Also, players, do not feel discouraged if more than one of you come up with similar gladiator builds. In this campaign, that can still be a viable option. Don't bow out on that alone, as I've seen others do on other recruitment threads.

Yes, the network is well aware of that. However, since your gladiators are controlled remotely by humans from Earth, we assumed that a compromise between real-world combat and the abstract combat system you will be using was acceptable.

Gladiators wielding non-reach polearms, greatswords, etc., will be allowed to make attacks of opportunity within 5 feet of them (assuming that is their threatened area) if they have this feat. This should allow for some more versatility of character builds. The wording was intentional. We had even considered adding finesse weapons to the list, such as rapiers, but decided against it for simplicity.

But I had another thought: are a team of gladiators allowed to go in on an item together? Because with that many melee characters, haste would be pretty rad!

Also, is pre-battle buffing allowed?

Any one character can spend their money on anything up their starting wealth. They may not pool resources to buy more expensive items with other team members.

Some fights will allow buffing time beforehand, some will not. It depends on the match's rules. Each one is different.

Once a match has begun, sharing items is okay if the rules allow it. Sometimes there is free sharing, sometimes it is "loot the corpse," sometimes it's "don't use anything non-terrain that you didn't bring in with you."

>As for AoOs, Bilbo is on the right track. Combats can get bogged down, or devolve into an AoO free-for-all. Same reason spellcasters aren't allowed as classes for this.

However, I'd be willing to consider crafting a feat that allows an Attack of Opportunity with reach weapons, as aI can see the dislike over their getting nerfed with the rules change.

For everyone's consideration:

Attack of Opportunity
You can take advantage of your weapon's reach to attack foes who get too close.
Prerequisite Intelligence 11, Dexterity 13
Benefit Whenever you wield a two-handed melee weapon that you are proficient with (not a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands), you gain a single Attack of Opportunity per round, as per the normal Pathfinder combat rules. You gain a +2 bonus to attack on this attack of opportunity.

Just got word from the network, something about divine intervention:

Paladins and Antipaladins may retain their spells or they may take the Trapper or Skirmisher ranger archetype to replace it, their choice.

I think we can all work with that.

potential partners:I am suggesting 1 or 2 of you specialize in UMD and get cure light wounds wands.

If not then I will do it. <---This assumes they are for sale.

Everything is for sale, yes. You can buy magic, just no inherent spellcasting. Supernatural and spell-like abilities are fine.

Oh, and just so you all don't cry shenanigans once the game begins, you very well may go up against opponents with supernatural and spell-like abilities, flighted creatures, and even gladiators with spellcasting levels (though they will rarely exceed half their level, to be fair).

The roster of NPC gladiators you will go up against, and the type of match will be determined randomly.

The Network is not always fair, and as the Producer, I answer to their board, ultimately. :)

It's all about the ratings, folks.

Max HP/level. Thanks for catching that.

Updated: Max HP/level, no PrCs

"Brief respites" will be non-combat downtime between matches. Ample time for roleplay and strategizing, spending your victory winnings (losers get a small cut, too, if they survive, as it still boosts ratings), and interaction with NPCs (handlers, trainers, rival teams, etc.). Their time will vary by relevance to the campaign.

Abilities are listed above. 15- and 20-pt buy, depending on race. I differientiated the point-buys based on what my experience with these races in gladiatorial real-life play has been with 12 different players over the course of a few months. I've not playtested the Bestiary 3 races, so I'm unfairly lumping them in with the 15-pt buy races. Deal with it, sorry. Races who get a single +2, and small races tend to do, "less well" in this campaign. I'll be regurgitating a lot of arenas/scenarios/NPC teams from my home game version of this, with some slight revision.

-No Prestige Classes.

This was inspired by a PDF/article thing I read a while back called The Dungeon Reality Show, or something similar, as well as the old Dungeon/Dragon magazine articles depicting gladiatorial campaigns. I need to look it up again, but I like the gladiator+Mojoworld concept, and it went over well with my friends this last year.

Skirmisher ranger archetype from the APG also replaces spellcasting.

As for submissions, I'd like a lot of crunch, and a sprinkling of fluff. Show me your gladiator, and give me a brief description, their name, and why they are in the Arena (this is a demiplane). A battle cry, signature move, etc. would be nice to throw in if you like.

And you all need to come up for a name of the gladiatorial team you all belong to.

Examples of some of the more popular teams you may face are:

The Warblers
The Lord's Horde
Direct Connect
The Fire Brigade
Nature's Folly
The Knights of Woe
The Red Queens
Team Ogresmash!
The Guild

Welcome, gladiators, to your chance at freedom from The Dungeon Arena!

It doesn't matter whether you were born here, forced here, or entered on contract, your fates are all entwined now...

You may train your abilities in any class listed as allowed up to level 5, and start with 12,000 gp in starting wealth. Do not get too attached to your character.

You will fight increasingly difficult battles, with brief respites to recoup and plan your strategies. Once you win a total of 15 team matches, you will have a chance to battle the current Champion for your ticket to freedom. Each match will have different objectives and rules.

If you should fall, your team may replace you with a new gladiator equal to your current level -1. You will level up every 3 successful battles.

Allowed Races:
20-pt races: gnome, goblin, half-elf, half-orc, halfling, human, kobold

15-pt races: aasimar, catfolk, dhampir, drow, dwarf, duergar, elf, fetchling, grippli, hobgoblin, ifrit, orc, oread, ratfolk, suli, sylph, tengu, tiefling, undine, vanara, vishkanya

Allowed Classes: Antipaladin, Barbarian, Cavalier, Fighter, Monk, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Samurai (As usual, variant classes do not stack with core classes. Alignment is relatively trivial.)

Other character generation rules:
-Max HP per level
-No traits.
-No middle/old age categories.
-No templates.
-No racial variants/favored class options from the APG.
-No Prestige Classes
-Mounts/Companions/Pets must have full stats on your profile.
-No Item Creation feats or Craft skill usage.
-No spellcasting. Any classes with spellcasting, such as ranger, must use a class archetype that replaces it.
-Allowed Books: Core Rule book, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Combat
-You can purchase any item up to 12,000 gp. Including trained animals, mounts, and hirelings (Any such creature must have full stats on your profile, and hirelings cost 10x the listed price, per match. You cannot hire spellcasters, as the game's producers are evil fiends who want to see you all die to boost ratings.).
-No Attacks of Opportunity. Abilities and feats such as Combat Reflexes, therefore, no longer exist, or will need to be modified on a case-by-case basis.
-Clever use of terrain, equipment, skills, unorthodox tactics, etc., will be rewarded, not punished, as long as it's viable and not outright silly.
-I'm not hand-holding; you need to be able to build a character by the rules without too many screw-ups. Check your HP, skills, favored class bonuses (either +1 skill rank or +1 HP per level), keep track of ammunition and consumables, get your saves, BAB, CMB/CMD correct, etc.

Deadline for Submissions:
I will be accepting submissions until 10pm, January 5th, EST. I am looking for 6-8 gladiators.

Flavor and personality is nice, but crunch is what will get you through this alive. PvP is possible, but will not win you any allies. Alignment is trivial, as you're all trying to just survive.

Each match will have strange foes, daunting terrain, and will be a veritable death trap for both sides. Rules will be outlined at the start of each match, as well as a map and general terrain details.

Do you have what it takes?