Resha's page

I love these sheets! Definitely prefer what you did to the equipment page vs what I did. I'm gonna leave mine here for posterity; The only thing it adds (I feel) is on the last page, which has the Full character progression included vs Just the Feats (which is 90% of it anyway). If you want to incorporate the idea into yours and improve it you're welcome to it. Again, appreciate all your hard work!

Will PF2E FINALLY change the class name from the inappropriately named Barbarian to the more accurate Berserker?

So, a version of this thread came up a while back in the thread Abundant Ammunition Weapon Blanching and though debated ad nauseam, no definitive RAW answers were forthcoming. Their focus was slightly different from mine, focusing more on the first two of my three questions.

• 1. Assuming there was at least 1 ammo in the pouch to begin with, what about non-magical ammo added after the spell is cast?
  
• 2. Non-magical pre-coated alchemical (blanched/poisoned) ammo already in the container?
  
• 3. Non-magical alchemical ammo (alchemical cartridge/raining arrow) that arguably have alchemy as a component/ingredient of the ammo?

Thank you all! Great suggestions! Although a few ideas were quite interesting (Lance Jouster/ cheaper natural attacker) they don't really go with the theme I was aiming for (but yes, I'm aware of the cost ;p). As much as I like the idea of -2 vs -4 kukri just don't look as sexy in my mind, though I would probably still go that route vs sawtooth sabers just for the extra crit range.
Thanks again for all your input!

So I'm enamoured by the idea of a Kali or Gilgamesh style eidolon and I wanted to try to maximize crit capabilities (and magical effects). I want to see how feasible it is, but with all the different rules I'm bringing into the mix, I'm a little lost in the RAW/RAI of exactly what my penalties are. Just want to bounce numbers off people and see if my math is right?

Non-proficient(-4/-4), multiweapon non-light weapon off-hand (-6/-10), two-handed in one hand:
-Impossible
Feat Lighten Weapon (two-handed in one now possible @ -2/-2:
-12primary/-16off-hands
Feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Elven Curved Blade) -4 proficient:
-8primary/-12off-hands
Feat Multi-weapon fighting -2 primary/-6off-hands:
-6primary/-6off-hands
Feat Improved Lighten Weapon remove -2/-2:
-4primary/-4off-hands.

This would be eidolon at level 9, evo 6 pairs of arms, giving me 12 Keen attacks for 1d10+1 15-20x2 crit, plus possible thundering/bursting effects.

So 3 questions:
1) Are my numbers right?
2) Is this the best I can get? Are there any ways to get the negatives down even further? (I am aware of many different ways to increase the eidolon's Str/Dex score. What I'm asking for is some other rule/feat/game mechanic I may be missing)
3) Is this a viable build or should I just resign myself to a measly 6 attacks?

(and yes I had just considered having it just throw alchemist's fires for 12d6/round)
Thanks in advance for your feedback!

So a little while ago Zwordsman called me out on my "summoner" typo when I meant sorcerer...but then I was curious to see the viability of a Summoner Poisoner build; up to level 13 (when everything resolves). This eliminates the cost AND DC issues associated with poisoners (but does limit you to just Con & Str for free). Decided to give Eidolon EWP(Elven Curved Blade) for the crit range and it wields small size (until he gets Animal Growth) to multiwield 1d8 18-20/x2
Tactics:
Throw: Brewed Reek (sickened -2 saves)& Itching Powder (-2 saves typeless)
Attack: B-bite(1d6), TS-tail slap (1d6), T-Tentacle (1d4), ,CBE-Curved Blade, Elven(1d8small/1d10medium), PB(DC/dmg)-Poison bite, TSP-Tail/Sting/Poison(DC/dmg)
Summon: Starting at SLA Summon Monster II (Elemental) and (speaking appropriate language) command to throw debuffs; then Summon Eidolon
UMD: Buff(+StatSpells,AnimalGrowth)/Debuff(PerniciousPoison)/Heal wands, etc.

The major benchmarks occur at 7 (when your eidolon can begin poisoning), 10 (when you get two extra arms), 13 (when all your poison abilities max out and you can craft Belt of Physical Perfection +6 and Belt of Animal Growth) and 18 (when you get a total of 8 arms). I'm sure this is not maximized (equipment/spells) and I'm sure I made several calculation errors, but this is as far as I got before I hit this stage:

Summoner (1)
Human (+2Con)
Trait: Harvester: "Additionally, you do not risk poisoning yourself whenever you handle or apply poison taken from a venomous creature."
25Point Buy: 10Str/16Dex/19Con/12Int/10Wis/10Cha
Languages: Common, Auran, Terran, Ignan(@lvl2), Aquan(@lvl2)
Alternate Traits: Focused Study: 1st(Kn:Engineering), 8th(Diplomacy), 16th(Perception)
Feat: Eldritch Heritage: Nanite Bloodline - Nanite Strike (Ex)
Tactics: Attackx2:DC15(+4)/1StrDmg,cure1save
Skills: Disable Device(DD)1, Handle Animal(HA)1,Perception(P)1,Slight of Hand(SoH)1,Spellcraft(Sc)1,Use Magic Device(UMD)1.

Eidolon:Serpentine HD1d10/Str12/Dex16/Con13/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(reach), Tail(slap), 2pt.Limbs(arms)x1, 1pt.Tentacle
Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency(EWP)(Curved Blade, Elven(CBE))
Skills: Perception(P)1,Stealth(St)1,Survival(Su)1,Use Magic Device(UMD)1
Tactics: Throw, Attack(B,TS,T,EBx2)
--------------------------------
Summoner(2)
Tactics: Attackx2:DC15(+4)/1StrDmg,cure1save
Skills: DD1, HA1,Linguistics(L)(Ignan,Aquan)2,P2,SoH1,Sc2,UMD2.(Continue to max Spellcraft and UMD)
Eidolon(2) HD2/Str13/Dex17/Con13/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(reach), Tail(slap), 2pt.Limbs(arms)x1, 1pt.Tentacle,1pt.Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE)/P2,St2,Su2,UMD2+8
Tactics: Throw, Attack(B,TS,T,CBEx2), UMD
--------------------------------
Summoner(3)
Feat: Spell Focus(Conjuration)(+1DC vs Conj)
Tactics: Attackx2:DC15(+4)/1StrDmg,cure1save
Eidolon(3) HD3/Str13/Dex17/Con13/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(reach), Tail(slap), 2pt.Limbs(arms)x2,1pt.Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE),Multiweapon Fighting(MwF)/P2,St3,Su3,UMD3+8
Tactics: Throw, Attack(B,TS,T,CBEx4)
--------------------------------
Summoner(4) CON20(+5) (Pernicious Poison Wand (PPW) -4 save vs poison, by wiz or Eidolon UMD)
Spell: Summon Eidolon
Tactics: Summon, Attackx2:DC16(+8)/1StrDmg,cure1save
Eidolon(4) HD3/Str13/Dex17/Con13/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(reach), Tail(slap), 2pt.Limbs(arms)x3, 1pt.Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE),(MwF)/P4,St4,Su4,UMD4+8
Tactics: UMD, Attack(B,TS,T,CBEx6)
--------------------------------
Summoner(5)
Feat:Augment Summoning(+4 Str/Con Summoned Creatures)
Tactics: Summon, Attackx2:DC17(+8)/1StrDmg,cure1save
Eidolon(5) HD4/Str18/Dex18/Con18/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(reach), Tail(slap), 2pt.Limbs(arms)x3, 1pt.Tentacle,1pt.Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE),(MwF)/P4,St4,Su4,UMD4+8
Tactics: UMD, Attack(B,TS,T,CBEx6)
--------------------------------
Summoner(6)
Tactics: Summon, Attackx2:DC17(+8)/1StrDmg,cure1save
Eidolon(6) HD5/Str18/Dex18/Con18/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(reach), Tail(slap), 2pt.Limbs(arms)x3, 1pt.Tentacle,1pt.Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE),(MwF)/P6,St6,Su6,UMD6+8
Tactics: UMD, Attack(B,TS,Tx2,CBEx6)
--------------------------------
Summoner(7)
Feat:Weapon Finesse
Tactics: Summon, Attackx2:DR/magic, DC18(+8)/1d2Str,cure1save
Eidolon(7) HD6/Str19/Dex19/Con18/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(2pt.poison), Tail(3pt.Sting/Poison), 4pt.Tail/Sting/Poison(TSP)x1,1pt.Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE), MwF, Skill Focus(UMD+3)/P7,St7,Su7,UMD7+11
Tactics: Attack(PB(18(+8)/1d4Str),TSP(DC18(+8)/1d4Str)x2)
Eidolon Poison—injury; save Fort DC 10 + 1/2HD + ConMod; 1/rd for 4rds; effect 1d4StrDmg(+2EvoPts ConDmg); cure 1 save.
Benchmark:
Things begin to resolve
Each successful hit with poison adds +2 DC & duration, damage at this point is 1-4Con 5-16Str DC26-30 per round. Can remove the PB attack to do ConDmg instead.
--------------------------------
Summoner(8) CON21(+5)
Tactics: Summon, Attackx2:DR/magic, DC18(+8)/1d2Str,cure1save
Eidolon(8) HD6/Str19/Dex19/Con20/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(2pt.poison), Tail(3pt.Sting/Poison), 4pt.Tail/Sting/Poison(TSP)x1,2pt.Ability Increase(Con)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE), MwF, SF(UMD+3)/P8,St8,Su8,UMD8+3
Tactics: Attack(PB(19(+8)/1d4Str),TSP(DC19(+8)/1d4Str)x2)
--------------------------------
Summoner(9)
Feat: Eldritch Heritage - Serpentine - Serpent's Fang (Ex): At 13th level, your poison damage increases to 1d4 Con. You can use your fangs for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Tactics: Summon, Bitex1:DR/magic,DC19(+8)/1d2Con,cure2saves, Attackx2:DR/magic,DC19(+8)/1d2Str+1d2Con,cure1save
Eidolon(9) HD7/Str19/Dex19/Con18/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(2pt.poison), Tail(3pt.Sting/Poison), 4pt.Tail/Sting/Poison(TSP)x2
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE), MwF, SF(UMD+3),MultiAttack(MA)/P9,St9,Su9,UMD9+3
Tactics: Attack(PB(19(+8)/1d4Str),TSP(DC19(+8)/1d4Str)x3)
--------------------------------
Summoner(10)
Tactics: Summon, Bitex1:DR/magic,DC19(+8)/1d2Con,cure2saves, Attackx4(Aspect):DR/magic,DC19(+8)/1d2Str+1d2Con,cure1save
Eidolon(10) HD8/Str20/Dex20/Con18/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(2pt.poison), Tail(3pt.Sting/Poison), 4pt.Tail/Sting/Poison(TSP)x1, 2pt.Aspectx1,2pt.Limbs(arms)x1,Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE), MwF, SF(UMD+3),MA/P10,St10,Su10,UMD10+3
Tactics: UMD,Attack(PB(20(+8)/1d4Str),TSP(DC20(+8)/1d4Str)x2),CBEx2
Benchmark:
Now both your and your eidolon are doing a combined 5-10Con 7-20Str DC32-33 per round (and of course you can replace the Str Dmg for 2d4Con at the cost of your weapon attacks).
--------------------------------
Summoner(11)
Feat: Multiweapon Fighting
Tactics: Summon, Bitex1:DR/magic,DC20(+8)/1d2Con,cure2saves, Attackx4(Aspect):DR/magic,DC20(+8)/1d2Str+1d2Con,cure1save
Eidolon(11) HD8/Str20/Dex20/Con19/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(2pt.poison), Tail(3pt.Sting/Poison), 4pt.Tail/Sting/Poison(TSP)x2,2pt.Aspectx1
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE), MwF, SF(UMD+3),MA/P11,St11,Su11,UMD11+3
Tactics: Attack(PB(20(+8)/1d4Str),TSP(DC20(+8)/1d4Str)x2)
--------------------------------
Summoner(12) CON22(+6)
Tactics: Summon, Bitex1:DR/magic,DC21(+8)/1d2Con,cure2saves, Attackx4(Aspect):DR/magic,DC21(+8)/1d2Str+1d2Con,cure1save
Eidolon(12) HD9/Str21/Dex21/Con19/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(2pt.poison), Tail(3pt.Sting/Poison), 4pt.Tail/Sting/Poison(TSP)x2,2pt.Aspectx1,Skilled(+8UMD)
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE), MwF, SF(UMD+3),MA/P12,St12,Su12,UMD12+11
Tactics: UMD,Attack(PB(21(+8)/1d4Str),TSP(DC21(+8)/1d4Str)x2)
--------------------------------
Summoner(13)
Feat: Craft Wondrous Item (Spellcraft and UMD should be maxed)
Belt of Physical Perfection 144,000 gp (craft 77,000g)(+6STR/DEX/CON)
Tactics: Summon, Bitex1:DR/magic,DC24(+8)/1d4Con,cure2saves, Attackx4(Aspect):DR/magic,DC24(+8)/1d2Str+1d2Con,cure2save
Eidolon(13) HD10/Str29/Dex19/Con23/Int7/Wis10/Cha11
Collar of Animal Growth 48,619g (24,310g) 3/day C-word "Bamf!" Benefit: Large/+8STR/+4CON/-2DEX/NatAC+2/Reach
Evolutions: Climb, Bite(2pt.poison), Tail(3pt.Sting/Poison), 4pt.Tail/Sting/Poison(TSP)x2,2pt.Aspectx1,2pt.Limbs(arms)x1
Feat/Skills: EWP(CBE), MwF, SF(UMD+6),MA/P13,St13,Su13,UMD13+6
Tactics: UMD,Attack(PB(23(+8)/1d4Str),TSP(DC23(+8)/1d4Str)x2),CBEx2
Benchmark:
Your poison attacks have finally maxed out and the ability to craft Belt and Collar 2 levels earlier than buying give big boost to DCs.
Now both your and your eidolon are doing a combined 5-12Con 7-20Str DC37-38 per round
--------------------------------
Next major benchmark is at 18 when you get 4 more arms (total 8) for an extra 4d2Str+4d2Con.

OR get your Fighter (they've got CON and feats to spare right?) to get Eldritch Heritage and milk HIM!
(Edit: Or her, but then it gets awkward)

See now I feel bad. My build was less optimal than this. I went a different route (more quantity vs quality):
Race: Kobold, Constitution 18, Good Dex
Feats: Tail Terror, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Pressure Point (-1Str), Toxic Spell-Pernicious Poison (-4 vs poison)
Class: Poisoner/Sorcerer(Crossblooded-Nanite/Serpentine)/Guild Poisoner
Magic Items(optional): Ring Greater,Invis, Spell Storing Weapon (Pernicious Poison)

+ Alchemy! :D

We'll say for easy math we're at least level 8.

Round 1:
Party Member(s)/Cohort: Throw Brewed Reek(20gp) & Itching Powder(30gp)
Sickened2d6rd(-2save,att,dmg,skill,ability) & typeless (-2save,att,skill,ability) unless wash for 1 round ... and what are the odds any of the monsters are carrying soap?

You: 3 manufactured attacks (two weapons + natural attack w/tail attachment) with Nanite Strike + 1 natural (Serpent's Fang), both poison (DC 10+1/2CL+ConMod)
Assuming Alchemy Items and Pernicious Poison weapon hits you start out with -8 vs poison, so 10+4+4+(-8) is save DC26 round 1. Plus if the other weapons hit (poison stack) you're looking at another -4 :).

So for 50gp
Round 1: SneakAttack+4Str(PressurePoint)+4d2Con+3d2Str
Round 2: Save DC is 32-34, unless you want to be mean and hit them again then it's 38-42 (unless my math is way off?)

Bear in mind, if you don't use magic items or get any help it's more like:
Round 1: Greater, Invis
Round 2: Brewed Reek & Itching Powder (sneak dmg?)
Round 3: Pernicious Poison
Round 4: See above

and of course if you actually want to Pay for poisons you can always substitute Nanite Strike on your 3 weapons for Actual poison (Sasson Leaf Residue 6d12hp dmg/rd, or Nightmare Vapor 3Wis/rd+Confuse, anyone?)

Only question I would ask is, can you poison your magic items AND use Nanite Strike? 'cause then it just gets silly...er :)

(Edit: Combining Brewed Reek, Itching Powder, and Pernicious Poison with Under a Bleeding Sun's build would also be quite effective, I imagine)

That being said, I see your logic and thanks for the help!

Regarding Efficient Quiver/Abundant Ammunition:
Ah, yes, I remember. You are correct. I was going to craft wondrous "upgrade" an efficient quiver to an Efficient Abundant Quiver.

So just to make sure I'm tracking: What you're saying is, if I make an Ogre Launching Ballista for a siege campaign, push an ogre into a crate, dump acid on it (for extra splash damage when it hits), and then cast Abundant Ammunition, once I launch him, the next Ogre won't have acid on it?

Well, that seems silly...

1. This whole thread came about because I wanted to create a ranged poisoner.
2. Following the logic of "If you can make a Smoke Arrow by modifying a smokestick you should be able to do an arrow version of alchemist's fire that does less damage and no splash. But let's just stick with a Smoke Arrow for now.
3. And then I found out about the nifty trick with Explosive Runes. But let's say it's Spell Storing to make it easy.

So my question is:
Can they stack? I haven't found any ruling that says poisoned Can't be alchemical, just like I haven't seen that magic can't be alchemical either (must be masterwork to start, but if I'm willing to drop the extra 300 to make my smoke arrows masterwork?) Where does it say I can or can't poison a magic weapon?
Can I have a +1 smoke arrow of spell storing dipped in wyvern poison?
Thanks in advance. Any and all clarity is always welcome.

Oh and while I'm at it:
Efficient Quiver (explicitly non-magical ammunition). Do poisoned/alchemical arrows work since they are non-magical?

Thanks

So I was looking for a good poison build myself. The DM set level at 13. This is what I came up with:

Poisoner(Rogue) 3
Summoner(Crossblood-Celestial/Sage) 8
Guild Poisoner 2

Gives me:
Poison Use(can't poison self)
Master Poisoner(convert poison type)
Sneak Attack(2d6)
Rogue Talent - Pressure Points(When sneak attack dmg also -1 DEX or STR)
Point Blank: +1 att/dmg weapon up to 30ft
Rapid Shot: 1 extra attack, -2 all att
Manyshot: 1st attack 2 arrows
Toxic Magic - Pernicious Poison: touch, 10min/lvl -4save vs poison, add 2 increments, attempts to cure at -4
Spells:Greater Invisibility, Haste, Abundant Ammunition(crafted into quiver for unlimited nonmagical arrows(but can be MW)

NOTE: Saves are based on assumption previous attacks succeed.
Round 1:
Greater Invis(always Sneak,no dex)
Round 2:
Haste
Round 3:
Pernicious Poison (-4 saves vs poison)
Round 4:
Brewed Reek Arrow DC19(sickened, -2 saves) (1d4+2d6+-1STR+poison)
Itching Arrow DC18(untyped -2 save) (1d4+poison)
Nightmare Vapor Arrow DC28 1Wis and confused for 1rd 2 consecutive saves 1800g (1d4+2d6+-1STR+poison)
Nightmare Vapor Arrow DC30 (poison stacks +2DC per additional dose) (1d4+2d6+-1STR+poison)

Gives me: 4d4 + 6d6 + -3STR + -2Wis and confused. You can substitute for your favorite poison but I recommend ones that need 2 saves because that gives you one more round to charge DC if they succeed the first. If I shoot all Nightmare Vapor Arrows Round 5 DC becomes 38 for their second save.

Unfortunately DM interpreted abundant ammo differently saying that Just the arrow returned (not the poison on it), and wouldn't allow a work around (aka crafting arrows ala raining arrows filled with Not holy water). I would have gladly taken -2 attack roll for unlimited arrows. Still if DM allows it you save a lot of money on poisons; You basically only need to craft each one 4 times.

Thoughts?