Oolioddroo Demon

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So much anger

If a ranger came to me as a GM and asked for Quicksilver Mutagen id decline. Why would they get that without a reason for having access to it?

I recently had a player ask if he could take Globe of Invulnerability on his wizard. Uncommon spell. However he is an abjuration specialist so I gave it to him. If he was an evoker or enchanter than no I wouldn't let him have it.

Your example of ring of wizardry would be an easy yes to wizards assuming the current area they are in, if during a campaign, would resonably have that type of item. If it was during character creation. Than again easy yes for wizards, hard no for non casters.


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Again, as others have pointed out, Mutagens are uncommon now. So all you have to do is talk to your GM like an adult and say "hey, I'm a bomber focused Alchemist and my character has been researching ways to modify their body to achieve better accuracy with my bombs. Can I take the Quicksilver Mutagens?"

Unless your GM is a dick, if they are just leave the game not worth it, they will let you.


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This isn't a "flaw" with the system but differences in Table Play.

If you have a table like OPs that likes bringing in low level characters to higher level games you will have issues with games that don't "support" that playstyle.

I would recommend using a system that supports the playstyle of your table. For example, if you want to play a supers game I would recommend something like Masks or Wild Talents. Or if you want to be a group of vampires play Vampires.

If at your table you have a specific niche that you all love, such as bringing level 1 characters into level 12 games after your character dies, than use a system that supports that niche.


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But the casters who cast those spells also had to expend higher level slots to prevent you from dispelling them.

If the spell is 1 higher than your dispel you should have about a 25% chance 15+ to dispel it assuming casters of equivalent levels. For each level the spellcaster is higher than you that chance does decrease since their spell DC increases but the opposite is true the other direction as well.

Now for the adventure it would be nearly impossible to dispel the "warning" spell because of who the caster of that spell was and also to point out to the players that maybe casting spells in the middle of a party without permission is probably a stupid idea.

For see invisibility and true seeing it makes sense again why they function the way they are. See invisibility is a very specific function it sees invisible things. True seeing would let you see vs any illusion or transmutation but they put a roll requirement on it to prevent it from just always working. So if you wanted it to basically always work you prep it at a higher spell slot.

Spells are no longer learn and forget. You have to think about what you want to learn, what to prep, and what level slots you want those spells to take.


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@mathmuse

"The vampire spawn typically can’t enter a dwelling unless invited. If someone mentions this to the vampires,they eagerly reveal that during one of Oscilar’s episodes, the vampires’ master commanded the professor to announce they were always welcome in his home." Pg43 at the end of the description of event 2.


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So you gave your players free barricades. Let them move couches and tables with telekinetic projectile. Gave them free knowledge of the enemies using an NPC with no stats. The players perfectly set up an area where the gahsts leap put them in the middle of more objects so they had to leap again. And they had lookouts in every room to be aware of the wights breaking in through the windows.

Oof I complained about Colette killing parties but at least they bothered to try and follow the Playtest.

I agree with Starfox that some situations have solutions that might not be directly pointed at in the book. However I never would have let them force march the camel's 12 hours to get to the mountain. Even with the time limit the few days it takes to get to the mountain are nothing and an organized party would be able to get in and out well before the Night Haralds even get near.


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The zombies are a small part of this section. How'd the ghasts, wights, shadows, vampires, poltergeist, and the brain collector affect the party? If they spread stuff around to limit movement they are also hampered by it limiting options. The poltergeist would have had a field day pelting them with things for example. Did they have the professor with them in this set up or was he in another room?


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Hmm, interesting find.

My reading of it is that you aren't etching a rune onto the weapon but instead imbuing rightous might into the weapon itself giving it the property without requiring the rune (since it doesn't count towards rune limit on the weapon).

So the weapon with "Blade Ally" is still getting the property or the ability.

The property rune item, normally, would require it be etched into the appropriate weapon so the weapon gains that property.

Either way again a few words to clean up the text would be appreciated here in the final version devs.

But would love to hear a quick answer to the intended reading.


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Jason has stated in the thread on rarity that uncommon rarity accessibility is linked to both build and GM approval. Effectively a 50/50 split between player agency and GM agency.

Which comes down to ask your GM if you can have the uncommon thing/why you should be able to have it and they can allow you to have it.


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3D is again hard to properly represent in a typically setting for the game. Most players aren't going to have elaborate models and structures to hold things at their proper size, as fun as that would be. So its not necessarily the best to even bother working on rules for scenarios that require them unless they are a main feature of the game.

So again kinda up to DM but common sense should also take hold. If I am standing around and two Huge things are in front and behind me regardless of where their center of mass sits, i'm pretty flanked.

ummm, in a more mechanical sense, I would say it as.. If I can seek in a cone and see both enemies i'm not flanked


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I'm actually taking a new group through part 3 as well, specifically because of the changes to channel to see how they handle it. And would love to be able to provide appropriate feedback based off the update 1-6. So yeah agree I think they should be able to modify that question without much issue and would like to see it done.


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But you aren't a player Colette you are a GM in these games even with a GMpc you are still running with knowledge that the PCs don't have thus skewing any player survery results you could have.

@Lyricanna
This is interesting to read. You are a "veteran" of tabletops and enjoy playing XCOM long war and still chose to use terrible tactics against the Kraken. Any smart player or veteran, (especially with someone that can "make a god at lvl 5"), should have realized the first thing to do when encountering a surprise threat is to back off and examine your options. As I had pointed at earlier you and the other player had multiple options for escaping from the Kraken so you could regroup and plan but instead you both chose to stay in the Kraken grasp. You also didn't seem to have uses of invisibility for the stealth section of the Playtest. Based purely off the information provided by Colette I can't actually believe any of what you have posted.


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Wave 2 event 6 so they made basically 2/3rds of the way through. Colettes PCs made it to event 2.


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Math issues that Paizo has been able to analyze and modify because we did the Playtest.

I pretty much agree with DeadManWalking on all this. Because of the Playtest we were able to give Paizo direct outside feedback into Pathfinder 2e. We spotted things that they had overlooked after working on it for so long. The numbers issue was identified quickly but as they have said it would have required an effective rewrite of the whole bestiary to fix it.

Paizo instead took the opportunity to explore other issues or things they wanted to see our reaction to. Resonance got shifted to the Focus playtest, which I think is a great step in the right direction, new options for classes are coming out soon as well as some we already got. Some spells got a damage buff, multiclassing came out, and other things all got brought more in line with what the finished goal is for 2e.

Now after all this, Paizo can look at the adjustments they plan on making to monsters and can go, oh this is going to be too little of an adjustment or too much just based on how the current power level of PCs handles the overtuned monsters. Which is all fantastic in the long run.

While I would love to see a few more hey we did a bit of modifying run this one-shot with these pre-gens after December, I can definitely say that this Playtest has been a huge boon for Paizo and for Pathfinder 2e


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@VoipClock The encounters aren't designed based on the enemies making poor decisions. Enemies are however assumed to have a conscious/thoughts/feelings/goals/hatred/desire it's a ROLE-PLAYING game after all.

And I agree with you, compared to a decent chunk of other tabletop rpgs out there, D&D as well as Pathfinder do tend to have a more tactical approach to handling combat.

However, all tabletop RPGs are trying to accomplish 1 simple goal, to tell a story. You don't open a book read the opening paragraph about the protagonist, a farmer boy who is growing crops dreaming of when his dad returns from war, and have the next paragraph talk about how the demons teleported next to him and cut his head off. God imagine LotR where if instead of Gandalf showing up in The Shire it was a Nazgûl just chilling in the house.

Now the books and designers explain encounters to the best that they can. No plan survives first contact with the enemy and all that. As soon as you start the adventure with your table that adventure and that story becomes everyone's that is there playing. The book from that point becomes suggestions and ideas for things that can happen to the PCs if they follow along with the plot threads. But if we look at the books as pure mechanically as we can you have so many adventures that get solved by the PCs literally doing nothing since nothing happens unless they go deal with it. My group recently finished the Mummy's Mask AP and I can tell you that if the PCs decide to stop following the plot in book 2 nothing else happens unless the players go and poke it.

Phew, now after all that what myself and at least Vidmaster7, have been trying to point out is Colette obviously has disdain for the Playtest and so do their players based purely off this thread. But also based on that and the responses again on this thread, nearly all complaints that Colette and their players have made all seem to have a singular point connecting everything. That's this obsession that Colette has to TPK their party at the cost of actually having fun. From what it seems games with Colette are less of what's the story with the missing kids and the wierd Alchemist but more when do rocks fall and everyone dies.


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"If this effect is dispelled or otherwise removed, the kraken
immediately abandons the chamber, swimming to freedom
through a long submerged tunnel." pg. 83

So there's another entrance to the area.

If the party takes their actions and sneaks past the Kraken they are sneaking against the Kraken's perception DC which as was pointed earlier with invisibility makes it basically guaranteed that they make it past. They have now made it past your stationary Kraken. Especially since its floating in plain view of the entrance to the area, any creature that pokes its head around the corner has seen this Gargantuan Aquatic beast looking towards the doorway and can prep appropriately. Which again leads into the scenarios I mentioned. The group that doesn't try to actually sneak through their heist mission will just be spotted right away while the groups that employ stealth tactics, like a group specialized in infiltration, knowledge, and subtlety, would be completely fine.

I also am not saying it can only take 1 seek action every round. I am saying that any creature that is forced to go and stare at any location every 6 seconds is not going to have the ability or time to do anything else. At some point that creature would need to sleep/eat/poop all of which would take longer than 6 seconds to accomplish.


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Wow the detail and the numbers are fascinating to read.

There has been some controversy in some threads about handling the larger enemies within the church. Specifically the treachery demons. How had the GM placed them when they popped into the church and how were they manuvered around the area?


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I believe ErichAD is right in that regard.

But that ends up being a mixing of exploration and encounter actions. This Kraken has been, apparently, seeking every 6 seconds since the adventure began forcing it into an encounter mode with nothing else. At least until the PCs get to the room that it's in.

Assuming the PCs have invisibility, which takes priority; the sneaking exploration tactic which has them move at half travel speed while sneaking (giving them the +20 stealth) or the seek encounter action that the, obviously exhausted and starving, Kraken has been employing?

However, I will say I definitely disagree that this Kraken spends every 6 seconds seeking the entrance-way into the vault. That poor thing wouldn't have made it a day.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

This Kraken was bound and compelled to guard the vault. Which, obviously means if it encounters anyone that shouldn't be in the area, effectively anyone not Whark, it fights them. But if it has no reason to believe anyone is nearby say something sneaking and beating its perception DC, most likely its just swimming around keeping an eye/ear out around it. Now if someone sneaking fails to beat its perception at any point during that creatures trek to the vault than obviously the Kraken would start seeking around for the target that it now has sensed.

So you have a few scenarios that can rise up:

1st scenario: Dude Bros
This group rolls up on the vault high-fiving each other after getting past the mirrors, cheering and hollering that the vault is in their sight. Kraken notices them as soon as they enter the room since they aren't stealthing.
Result: Crushed by Kraken

2nd scenario: Seal Team 6
This group has had invisibility on them as soon as they left the main room. Nothing has noticed their movement as they have invested everything into stealth. Not a single piece of dust has been disturbed by their movements. Kraken is unaware that anything has entered the room.
Result: Book secured and nobody knows.

3rd scenario: Scholars/Sages
This group used diplomacy so well they and Whark are grabbing drinks later. Whark told them about all the defenses between them and the vault including the Kraken. They get close to the Vault room and employ any number of spell combinations to easily allow themselves to avoid the Kraken.
Result: Book secured and Captain Whark is buying first rounds

4th scenario: Self-Sacrifice
This group has always struggled and fought together. They have been employing all their tactics to secretly break in and grab this book. They manage to get to the vault room and begin to sneak around as to not trigger any traps. However Bill slips up and has gained the ire of the Kraken. Knowing they have to get this book Bill signals to the rest to keep moving and draws his staff to face the Kraken in combat. Bill does his best to distract the Kraken as the rest of his crew get to the vault and work on it.
Result: Book secured but at a cost

These are just a few ideas of how this whole encounter can go down. Obviously none of these have included what could happen if Necerion shows up or if things just go horribly from the beginning (bad dice/decisions).


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Depends, was he firing three shots or two? Cause triple shot also allows you to just fire two shots at a single target at the -2 penalty and for only two actions. Since it enhances double shot so you can target 1 creature with both shots but if you wanted to fire three shots it's an extra action and the -4 penalty


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Youre right. Game systems do give us a framework. They don't give us the blueprints of the atoms in the universe. You are asking the devs to tell you that your character can breathe, that they need to eat food to survive, that blood pumps through their system, or that sometimes you have to poop.

Or you could apply common sense to those things so they can instead spend time and energy writing grand adventures and characters so you can spend evenings rolling dice and having fun.

Oh and since common sense fails you. Fire is hot and water is wet.


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People complained because your gmpc rogues just peace'd immediately and didn't try anything. I'm not talking about your gmpcs escaping but the players because the players PCs matter significantly more than any gmpc should ever matter.

Gaseous form allows the casters to break grapple and has a fly speed so they could break grapple and regroup away from the kraken to think about their plans such as creatively using wall of force to block the kraken off.

They could also dimension door to break grapple and achieve the same thing.

As for wall of force. Since the krakens body doesn't count as existing in those squares as you have mentioned before the rogues, wouldn't have been able to stab the tentacles, you could just wall of force the section and break grapple.

Now since the kraken itself has no way to pop it's head up to the surface (no space where it's full body could fit) it's obviously looking up from below in the water. The vault is above the water in the center of the area. Presumably a creature would be able to be on the center platform and stealth to hide themselves from being seen by a creature under the water and therefor can't achieve a line of sight onto the platform.


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Hmm looking at the spells (I don't like project image you have to stay within 30 ft and it really doesn't do much else especially as a 7th level spell)

Anyways on to the actual spells.

Both your wizard and bard have gaseous form, which would let them break grab and allow them to fly up to avoid the kraken or just escape to regroup and decide on another plan.

They also both have wall of force which would also break them from the grapple because you can't pass through the wall effectively achieving the same thing as well as with clever positioning they could actually use those to "seal" a large chunk of the water to allow them to access the vault with minor interference.

Another option is dimension door. For escape or getting to the vault.

So your casters had options they just didn't want to use them resulting in tpk. Which is part of the hobby learning how to adapt and use the tools of the system properly.


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I'm more surprised the wizard didn't have fly or freedom of movement or really any 4th level spells.

Curious though Colette. If you don't mind, could you post the spells your casters had available for this encounter. (Don't want any claims of oh if they had saved this spell and not used it in x encounter they would have been fine.) But it would help I think as a whole to see what options your party had going into and during the fight


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I have an Alchemist in my game doing pretty solidly right now. The only main issue we see, that hasn't had some response to it, is that we would like to see Alchemical items give an Alchemical bonus instead of an item bonus.

What problems exactly do you see with the Alchemist and how would you like to see it fixed?


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@Tridus

So...umm... I wanna make sure we are on the same understanding.

Doomsday Dawn is an adventure designed to test the new system. Things are going to be put into the Playtest to serve a specific testing goal such as handling long encounters without being able to sleep in between (part 3) or "random encounters" along a route (part 2). So the designers are going to put encounters in there so they can have that feedback and testing of the rules in different circumstances.

That fight is designed to see if a party at full power (just rested, full HP) can handle a creature levels above theirs. And also to see maybe what classes were doing too well or too poorly in such an encounter.


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Tridus since I saw your last other thread and know what you fought. That fight that you got crit that hard was a cr12 vs player level 9.


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So while they could add something like that I don't see why they would. The only part of Doomsday Dawn where the player characters aren't necessarily connected to the Esoteric Order or the Night Heralds is in part 1, where you just make a new party and go again, or maybe part 2 where the group is a band of mercenaries, presumably picked because they will complete the job.

Part 3 are characters connected to the Order or have a vested interest in fighting the Night Heralds.

Part 4 is the PCs from part 1 a group already invested in the Order

Part 5 is a group of hardened crusaders who signed up to fight in the worldwound

Part 6 part of the Order

Part 7 from parts 1 & 4


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Yeah, if your PCs have no defenses, are standing in the middle of the map, the demons teleport perfectly surrounding them, you land every single hit/crit and roll max damage, I would assume the party wouldn't be able to react to the new threat and would just fall over dead.

However, my players tend to listen when I tell them to make hardcore crusaders that have spent a significant amount of time working together and have signed on to fight in the worldwound. Thus they would have defenses setup with their 10 min prep time. They would cast defensive spells that would last a while to protect themselves and prep themselves as much as possible to guard the stairs with their lives. I also would never drop the demons directly on my party since I am not told to. The demons spawn where they are supposed to and have manuever themselves into church. This would require them to have the suffer with trying to move between pillars and not being able to easily reach the PCs. I also probably wouldn't even let them use deception for initiative and instead have it rolled up with perception since initiative has already been rolled and continues for the entire wave. So they pop into the fight two rounds after the first event at their initiative and take their actions.

But that's just my playstyle and not yours. Though if you don't already I would recommend you mention to players that come to your table that you play the game, hell-bent on murdering the PCs. This will allow the players to understand they should be playing characters min-max'd so they can survive breakfast.


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Too many people, I believe, in these threads are trying to equate the Pathfinder Playtest to Pathfinder 1e.

We, on this forum, are here because Paizo has allowed us to assist them in their endeavors in creating a new edition of Pathfinder. All of us obviously care deeply about the Pathfinder system and are excited to see the changes that Paizo has in mind.

This means all of us get very passionate and zealous about the new rules and how we would like to see them changed. Which in the grand scheme is great and I'm sure Paizo appreciates heavily the time and effort each of us are making.

However, I have seen a lot of comparisons made throughout the threads between this new system and 1e. Which makes it difficult to look at what ideas really can improve the Playtest and what is more about just wanting to continue making content for 1e.

I have no problems with people wanting more things for 1e. I think it's great that people are still having ideas for it and fully encourage people to explore those ideas. Perhaps even make some kick-ass third-party products.

But this specific forum, these threads under the banner "Pathfinder Playtest" are here to test, discuss, and improve what will be the Second Edition of Pathfinder. So please stop comparing the two and instead focus on what you'd like to see adjusted about this new system. Create threads about what new feats you would like to see, how you would like to see a new class implemented, perhaps an observation about a rules weakness/strength, or even just a thread asking for clarification. These are the kinds of things that will help shape this new system we are all here to support.

Thank you and have fun Playtesting


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I think most people are stuck in a way of thinking that compares PF1 to PF2. +1 might seem like nothing when back in PF1 you could have an oracle with +30 diplomacy at lvl 8. By lvl 12 he could fart in the middle of town and be given the key to the city because of how charming he is.

In this system though where bonus are all small and numbers are equally as small a +1 can actually change a lot. It's applying every thing the character understands and knows to be just that bit better than the person next to them.

It's only going to not feel like it matters if you keep comparing it to another system (especially one that had a lot of bloated numbers). The way the numbers work is different and it's time to start thinking about how these numbers interact with the challenges and abilities that this system has.


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It's in the errata it's rounded up not down.


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It'd make sense that you would be able to deal 0 damage especially since enhancements require you to deal at least 1 damage. So if you are too weak to deal 1 damage with a poisoned dagger you don't inflict the poison on your enemy.


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It's because it's a conditional bonus and it makes sense. You see it all the time in fantasy action movies. Good guy thinks he's gonna get hit brings shield up. He does get hit but is able to use shield to block the blow.

If you want to take another swing you can but you leave yourself open to an attack, instead you can bring up your shield and protect yourself.


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I don't think I ever said his utility was greater than Seoni's. Pure-Casters and especially Wizards will always have greater utility than other classes.

But we can go through and breakdown each of Fumbus' formulas if you'd like. Let's start from what he has prepared already.

Lesser Alchemical Fire x4: 2d8+4 Fire + 2 persistent fire Focus 10ft splash [Damage and Persistent]

Lesser Bottled Lightning x2: 2d6+4 Electricity + flat-footed Focus secondary splash target flat-footed [Useful for setting up rogue and martials]

Greater Darkvision Elixer x2: Darkvision 10min Focus 1hr [Useful for stealth and scouting]

Lesser Elixer of Life x2: 3d6 healing +2 item bonus at max HP 1hr fortitude save vs toxin, diseases, poisons, and venoms. Focus double healing [quick heal with fort save bonus option]

Less Quicksilver Mutagen x2: +2 item bonus to Acrobatics checks, Stealth checks, Thievery checks, Reflex saves, and ranged attack rolls, and you become accelerated 10 for 1min [Useful for big fights or for quick sneak and steal for Fumbus]

Now after that he still has 3 Alchemical Reagents left over which reasonably you could spend on Advanced Alchemy for 6 more items but for this sake let's assume Fumbus saves them for Quick Alchemy.

On top of what he already has made he has access to;

Lesser Juggernaut Elixer: +2 item bonus to Fortitude and 10 temp hitpoints for 1 min [Don't really find this one to be too useful unless you really need that 10 temp hitpoints]

Mistform Elixer: Concealed for 1 round Focus concealed for 1 min [Useful for the 25% miss chance especially for people that have lower AC or to dissuade the enemy from targeting the user]

Comprehension Elixer: Allows the user to read common rarity languages Focus durations lasts 1hr [Useful for reading languages your party doesn't have]

Infiltrator's Elixer: Allows the user to take the form of another humanoid or another creature of your type if not humanoid designated by the creater for 10 min after 1 min onset. Focus no onset time [Useful for infiltration and sneaking around enemy formations]

Antidote: +2 item bonus fortitude vs venoms and poisons for 6 hours Focus immediate saving throw if poison or toxin is no greater of a level of antidote + 2 {3} if successful affliction ends. [useful for locations where poisons are known to exist or enemies that use poisons]

Antiplague: +2 item bonus fortitude vs diseases for 24 hours Focus immediate check vs disease with level no greater than antiplague + 2 {3} if successful disease ends. [Useful if party member contracts a disease]

Cheetah's Elixer: Acclerated 5 for 1min Focus 1hr duation. [Useful if you need to get somewhere faster]

Eagle-eye Elixer: +1 item bonus perception check, +2 item bonus perception to find secret doors and traps for 1 min Focus duration 1hr [Useful for finding secret doors/traps and general scouting/searching as well as can give a bonus to initiative based on perception]

Minor Acid Flask: 4 + 1d6 persistent Acid Damage (can be used with empowered bombs so 4 + 2d6 persistent Acid damage) Focus deal damage equal to persistent on hit. [Useful if enemy is weak to Acid as well as just the annoyance of persistent damage]

Minor Liquid Ice: 1d4 + 4 cold damage. (can be used with empowered bombs so 2d4 + 4 cold damage) Target is hampered 10 Focus all creature affected by splash hampered 5 [Useful against enemy weak to cold or to just slow down the enemy]

Minor Thunderstone: 1d4 + 4 Sonic damage (can be used with empowered bombs so 2d4 + 4 Sonic damage) All creatures within 10ft must succeed Fortitude vs DC 15 or be deafened until end of it's next turn. Focus target deafened even on success or 1 min on failure [Useful vs target weak to Sonic damage. Deafened imposes a 25% failure check on actions using auditory actions so good vs casters]

Smokestick: 1 min 5ft radius obscuring cloud of smoke. Creatures within have concealment. [Stick on top of ranged allies to give them concealment while still allowing them to fire out with no penalty.]

Now with all those options I am certain there is great potential and utility with Fumbus.


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Your already throwing the bombs against TAC. I don't think to telling the enemy that they don't want to get hit by the bomb will do anything other than make them not want to get hit by it.

Maybe throwing two bombs at the same time. One as a distraction to gives flat-footed if it's attack succeeds and does splash damage and the other has the normal chance to succeed.

Though if that was what you were after just use a bottled lighting to cause flat-footed then, pull and throw another bomb cause you can still do that.


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I can't find anything that says a druid no longer gets the wild shape pool that they should gain upon getting the wild shape feat. The only thing that the focus point would adjust would be the spell points or the pool used for wild claws in this case so it's still 2 separate pools.

You also aren't likely to try and combine the two since you lose the morph on a polymorph unless your polymorph also has hands.

A lvl 10 class feat allows the druid to stay in animal form for at least an hour at the cost of wild shaping at 1 level less than your max spell level and 1 more wild shape pool point.


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The same thing would happen to anything that has 0 maximum hit points. Death.


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Colette Brunel wrote:
PsychicPixel wrote:

Colette, I'm confused here. You have a massive thread in the GM section talking about how none of your parties have survived any of Doomsday Dawn and make complaints about how difficult it is. But then you make a post about how strong heal is and that the players have too much access to it at max spell level.

But to actually talk about the discussion. I dont really think it's that strong overall in the context of channel energy. It's 3+charisma uses per day. If you have a healer spending multiple in 1 round the party probably has other issues than just needing a heal. And even if they are they are going to burn through that pool real quick.

It's also supposed to be a resource the PCs can use throughout the whole adventuring day. They aren't going to drop 6 in a single combat. Maybe 2 and a 3rd after the combat still leaving them with ~4 or so for the rest of the day.

A pool of 3 + Charisma modifier per day (that is incidentally how much bard/paladins and sorcerer/paladins have at their disposal for Channel Life) is that many free uses of a maximally-heightened spell per day, which would be preposterous by any other spellcaste's standards.

??? A cleric gets 3+Cha per day of heal/harm with channel energy because that is their main class ability.

A bard/paladin or sorc/paladin would need to take 4 paladin feats (dedication, healing touch, basic benediction, advanced benediction) to have access to channel life. This gives them the ability to use 1 spell pool point (from their pool of Modifier + 1 {from healing touch}) to cast heal at a spell level of half their level rounded up.

Also all caster classes with spell pools have powers that are heightened to max spell level. Non-casting classes are half/level rounded up.


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Colette, I'm confused here. You have a massive thread in the GM section talking about how none of your parties have survived any of Doomsday Dawn and make complaints about how difficult it is. But then you make a post about how strong heal is and that the players have too much access to it at max spell level.

But to actually talk about the discussion. I dont really think it's that strong overall in the context of channel energy. It's 3+charisma uses per day. If you have a healer spending multiple in 1 round the party probably has other issues than just needing a heal. And even if they are they are going to burn through that pool real quick.

It's also supposed to be a resource the PCs can use throughout the whole adventuring day. They aren't going to drop 6 in a single combat. Maybe 2 and a 3rd after the combat still leaving them with ~4 or so for the rest of the day.


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Oh oops yeah Mark said "...large or medium or any other size you add the splash damage from a hit to the normal hit damage" (the jump from large down to medium threw me) Yeah sorry, the target as well as the squares around it take splash damage. you can see the post here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs3gsr6?Joe-Ms-Playtest-Thread#9

Though that rule still hasn't been fully clarified in errata. But I can definitely see the intent within the ruling. But I also see what Draco is saying. The fact that the bolded part exists makes it seem like it doesn't work like that. Would be a simple enough fix for them. Just edit those two sentences to actually say what they want. Probably either:

"If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target including the target take the indicated amount of splash damage."
OR
"If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target excluding the target take the indicated amount of splash damage. On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack also takes the splash
damage.


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graystone wrote:
Ask yourself this: if you picked up JUST the playtest material, how would you use the goblin? If you do anything different, you really aren't faithfully testing the playtest.
Ok, so I just bought the rulebook and the adventure. I also have basic knowledge of fantasy. Looking at goblins first in the rulebook I notice that
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Now with new threats rising up, the many tribal elders have put aside their reckless ways in the hope of forging alliances that give them a chance at survival.
This tells me that without proper leadership/guidance the goblins tend to be reckless in their ways.
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...with some traveling to Absalom in search of a home that might

offer them sanctuary in a world that does not trust them.
The world itself doesn't trust goblins so they are probably evil which lines up with what I know off fantasy knowledge.
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Even those goblins who break from their destructive past often subtly perpetuate some of the qualities that have been tied to the creatures for millennia.
So typical goblins tend to be destructive while those chosen as PC Ancestry tend to be a bit more reserved.
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Some goblins remain deeply fascinated with fire, or fearlessly devour a meal that might turn others’ stomachs
They are pyromaniacs and eat very disgusting things.
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Others are endless tinkerers and view their companions’ trash simply as components of gadgets yet to be made.
However, they like to try and build things from whatever they can get their hands on.
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Those who befriend a goblin quickly learn that while a goblin’s friendship might include all manners of pranks, such fun comes from a place of true acceptance—something that a goblin does not give freely.
They like to pull "pranks" on others especially when friends with them but they do not make friends easily.
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In theory, goblins could live 50 years or more, but without anyone to protect them from each other or themselves, few live past 20 years of age.
So goblins tend to not take care of themselves or manage to kill themselves without others taking care of them.
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Goblins typically stand about 3 feet tall, with skin colors that range from green to gray to blue.

This also lines up with fantasy knowledge. The Feats further these points being based around fire, building with scrap, eating, and riding weird animals.

Now from the adventure we learn that their are things called Hobgoblins which 1 has taken over leadership of the Mudchewer Tribe. Who is forcing the goblins to go into a city called Magnimar and steal things from the longshanks there. Those who refused had their blood-drained and this Hobgoblin might be a vampire. A couple of goblins tried to overthrow this new leader but they were killed. A goblin called Talga escapes and after getting herself trapped in under an armoire she begs for mercy from Keleri. Talga begs Keleri to send people down in their home because she fears this hobgoblins increasingly violent rule. The first goblins in the Ashen Ossuary the PC's encounter are making a crude statue for the new boss.

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These goblins are gathered in the northern portion of the room and are hard at work building a 10-foot-tall statue of Drakus out of garbage, mud, twine, and bits and pieces of wood. The task isn’t going well—the haphazardly constructed statue keeps collapsing under its own weight—but the goblins don’t let this bother them.
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Once they notice the PCs, though, they abandon their task and race forward to attack, howling and hooting.

So the goblins run towards the intruders working to cut them down and possibly earn favor with their new boss. There is also the Fungus room where it says that Drakus uses this to help control the goblins by dulling their minds.

The next time the party runs into goblins is in the Headquarters. This can go 2 ways. Either the PC's trigger the alarm trap and the goblins douse the fire and hide waiting for the PC's to walk into their crudely made Rock Trap. Or the PC's avoid the alarm and can hear the goblins arguing over a scrap of meat.

So after reading all that my conclusion on typical goblins are that they are destructive, disgusting, green, short, reckless, and untrusted. Now there are also smarter goblins out their which like using more subtly in their approach like the goblins in the Headquarters setting up the Alarm trap as well as the Rock Trap. These ones also understand that darkness is a friend for them and will use it to get the drop on their prey. But those seem to be goblins that are higher up in the goblin society and not the basic grunts.

graystone wrote:
It's not really "allowing" but following the rules suggestions. IF goblins are meant to be played as mindless or rolls are meant to be rolled individually, that's something that should be explicitly notes in the adventures. If it isn't, I can't see how you can see it that someone is doing it 'wrong' for not following the guidelines that AREN'T there.

It's allowing specifically because its a suggestion it also says you can role individually. So that's a specific choice the GM makes for their table. I'm saying if you take that option its going to make combats drastically favor the side that gets to go first. I'm not saying its a wrong choice but that those are the results of that choice.

Wandering Wastrel wrote:
*I actually had the pyro fire off his Burning Hands even though some of his 'allies' were caught (and crisped!) in the blast. Possibly the only reason the PCs survived that fight at all.

I had planned for this as well, that and dropping the rocks even if their were goblins in the way but my PCs were able to take out 2 of the warriors and the commando before the pyro and the last warrior were able to go. The pyro still managed to get 3 of the party with burning hands and the last goblin got 2 in the rock trap but they didn't get a second round.

Lastly, F~++ Kenders. they are the worst Player race.


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Goblins have a +0 int, so as smart as PC's. That and focus fire is something even animal intelligence pack animals understand so I'm not sure where it was written in the playtest that goblins fire at random targets without tactics.

Sure they have the same mechanical number as any typical "intelligent" race within Golarian but that doesn't mean they employ the same tactics, have the same beliefs, or even work together that well. Numerous sources on the Goblins of Golarian point out how not tactfully minded they are. "RotR" has goblins grabbing hot pokers and glass injuring themselves to attack the party. "Jade Regent" has an entire fight against a goblin village where they will stop fighting you to watch fireworks, jump off buildings, and try to run in-between the legs of the PC's. Other notable things are Goblins believing that the mere act of writing words steals them from one's head and dares to prove heroism that typically involving injuring themselves (We Be Goblins). Heck I know IRL people, that should share the same intelligence score, light themselves on fire because it was "fun"

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If someone was already pre-held down by losing initiative, they are playing catch-up. They most likely did focus fire but monsters have better stats and skills and damage most times so equal tactics favors the monsters.

Sure monsters stats overall are slightly over-tuned and Paizo is currently working on fixing that. But this is an encounter of 7th-level PCs vs 2 CR 4 and 4 CR 3. Giving a total Encounter XP of 70 sitting just between a low-threat and a high-threat. A fight that shouldn't be much of an issue for party of capable adventurers. The party already starts with the terrain advantage since they have prepped for the siege and can create choke-points and difficult terrain for the enemy to have to deal with.

But again with allowing the enemies to roll as a group this can overwrite even the most careful of planning. The enemy gets in grabs the PC and the rest of the party has to just stand there as 5 other enemies take all of their actions just wailing on one person.


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Ah, yeah using the suggestion of having the enemy roll as a group can definitely make combat swingier because whichever side gets to go first will have a drastic advantage over the other. I tend to run with the classic of everyone rolling individually due to this reason.

Focus fire can be an effective tactic for groups or creatures used to such thing. Goblins tend not to show such tactics and tend to focus on whatever is the biggest threat individually. Mindless undead obviously attack whatever is nearest. The vampires in part 3 are definitely smart enough to employ such tactics and would seek to eliminate the biggest threats to them. But if that's happening the players should be smart enough to do so too focusing on eliminating the vampire or the ghoul holding down their ally before they can be killed. Monsters employing better tactics than PCs can be a big problem.

Undead are actually a pretty varied part of the Pathfinder universe. Skeletons, zombies, ghouls, vampires, shadows, ghasts, liches, etc. All have different tactics, intelligence, and abilities that are necessary to explore and test in 2e but they all suffer a similar weakness that can be exploited and that's a weakness to positive energy. Putting them together in a siege moment to explore party endurance is just the most logical choice for testing.


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I'm curious how you are running each fight. Are you rolling each enemy individually for initiative or as a group? Also are you focusing down on one PC? The amount of crits you keep having against the PCs seems pretty high considering most of the first attacks require a 16+/17+ against mediocre armored characters.

Also the point of the Somberfell Hall is testing healing, fighting undead, and most importantly endurance since it's a siege encounter the players aren't able to full rest in-between the fights and need to conserve resources and use the terrain to their advantage if they hope to survive.