In PF2, you largely sacrifice consistent, modifier-boosted damage if you want to be ranged.
In SF2, you're assumed to be ranged, and therefore you are by default stuck with damage that isn't modifier-boosted.
It would be nice to have flat-damage-boosted ranged weapon options for people to pick if they're allergic to the dreaded "crit for 2 damage" possibility, even if the average is the same as other guns. That reliability could be an avenue to get more gun variation.
Exactly. Ranged weapons getting no modifier boosted damage does not make sense from a logical or even balance point of view. A throw knife fully leverages the wielder's strength while a bow halves it? But a bow is constructed in a way that multiplies the wielder's strength not reduce it.
Same logic applies with guns. A fired bullet replaces a wielder's strength with multiple time stronger percussion of the bullet.
Guns need to have some kind of flat modifier to damage if they are going to make sense and be balanced with melee.
As a huge fan of Pathfinder, having played twice weekly since the playtest and finished multiple campaigns, I say this: Paizo's insistence to under-tune ranged weapons is really hurting Starfinder's look and feel. It is a problem in Pathfinder too, where even a shortbow does less damage than a chakram in the hands of someone with +3 strength or higher. We have grudgingly accepted the state of ranged weapons and moved on.
But in Starfinder this really turns us off; because sci-fi is all about laser guns and firefights. Having a thrown rock or a primitive club do more damage than a laser pistol or even a rifle is a huge bummer. We will end up in exactly the same spot as Pathfinder in terms of gameplay and feel.
In fact, it might even be worse than Pathfinder for characters that do not have ways to boost their ranged damage as a laser rifle is actually considerably worse than a longbow. Rifle is 1d8 (2d8 at level 4+, etc) while the bow is 1d8+1 with a small Strength investment plus deadly.
Asking because it is coming up in my next session (an adaptation of the Carrion Crown AP). Is there a replacement of some kind for the Flesh Golem? If yes, does it have a cool new differences or is it just the new way of doing the resistances (in the way of the Brass Bastion) and the rest of its abilities have stayed as is?
For those that got a book early, what are the clockwork creatures at the back matter? I am running a 1e AP converted to 2e and am hoping for the clockwork golem (kinda redundant conceptually imo) or clockwork angel
The Hunt Begins!
If the Broken Tusk following is to survive the coming year, their bravest scouts must carve a path through a harsh wilderness. Brutal beasts, wicked rivals, and an inhospitable landscape challenge the trailblazers to withstand their enemies and the elements. But mere survival is not enough. To forge their legacies as Mammoth Lords, the scouts search for an ancient artifact to light the way forward—the Primordial Flame! The Quest for the Frozen Flame Adventure Path begins with “Broken Tusk Moon,” a complete adventure for 1st- to 3rd-level characters.
What non-spoiler questions do you have in order to jump into this AP?
Are there any rules that expand on hexploration or surviving during harsh weather?
And Jason B has a special place in his heart when he wrote this mini adventure out as he cackled with glee at the thought of us going through it at the GENCON panel!!
That's enough for me, and the revealed 4th undead we can play, a friggin MUMMY!!
Can't wait for this book and then the following full AP Bloodlords!!
Tom :)
Pray tell, what are the first 3 playable undead? I am putting a new Deadlands campaign on hold (using Pathfinder 2e now that we have Guns& Gears) just so one of the characters can play a walking dead.
Anyone got their pdf already? Can they comment if the Clockwork Assassin stayed as is from the Agents of Edgewatch adventure or there are changes to it? http://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1004
I am hoping the latter in particular to the Thievery check. It works clunkily in combat, where it is either useless or you just inactivate the opponent completely. Was hoping for something like applying a Clumsy condition instead.
The release date keeps sliding to the future. Do we know if April 7th is the final date? I have put my Shattered Star finale on freeze so that I can use all the sweet clockworks from this book.
The following people have had playtest threads up for multiple days but haven't linked to this thread yet. I hope I'm not overstepping any bounds by linking for them.
No problem and thanks. My original plan was to post all 3 sessions with screenshots from our VTT but my enthusiasm died as I saw there was not much reaction.
For what it's worth, here are my thoughts from the Gunslinger PCs and NPCs:
Way of the Drifter: Sounds good, doesn't work. The rewards for going into melee and attacking with - 2 compared to your firearms attack bonus are simply not worth it.
Way of the Pistolero: PC played with dual pistols. No way to reload. He could only pull off the paired shots action like once per 3 rounds, considering he often had to Step to avoid AoO.
Way of the Sniper. The only build that worked in practice. Also the most boring. The player did Running Reload and Shooter's Aim almost every round
Firearms:Has been discussed to death in other parts of the forum.
In my 3rd playtest session, I house ruled crossbows and guns to have +1 die size. Dueling pistol became 1d8, arquebus became 1d10. It all worked out fine, really. The ranged characters still dealt less damage than the melee characters of the group, without being nearly irrelevant unless the crit-fish.
Paizo needs to balance firearms against bows, not crossbows. Ideally crossbows get a soft errata, like a crossbow-only rune that brings them up to par with bows.
Session 1 Part 2: The PCs grab the head of the group that ambushed them. They soon realize the thugs have nothing to do with the murders; they just wanted to mug them for their gear. However, the rat-folk does remember one of his contacts mentioned seeing two weird, cloaked figures entering an abandoned workshop with rapiers dripping blood. The PCs visit the abandoned workshop, only to be ambushed by 2 clockwork assassins.
2 Level 11 Clockwork Assassins. Encounter Cost: 144 XP
The players where lucky to spot the Assassin on top of the machinery at the Ground level. The fight was very tough and nearly resulted in a wipe. I brought the Damage Resistance of the Assassins to 5 (from 10 at level 13) because none of the group had adamantine to bypass it. The firearm wielders dealt minimal damage on normal hits and the assassins having high AC resulted in a crit range of natural 19-20. The fighter lost time running up the stairs to chase the sniping assassin (hide+projectile launcher sneak attacks) only to have the assassin drop down to the ground floor. They managed to kill one assassin and the second one run away. The session ended with the inventor analysing the body of the clockwork assassins and finding out his internal parts are laced with a strange purple crystal.
Impressions after Session 1 Firearms felt flimsy. Very low damage compared to the Fighter and the Inventor. On the other hand, the Inventor felt very powerful, with overdrive plus his companions attacks making him the higher damage dealer of the party. He also had many options at any given round (tamper, command companion, strike, raise shield, heal, etc) making him a very fun character to play. Unstable was too limiting, but this has been addressed already.
Hi all, let me know if you can access the screenshots above. If yes, I will continue my write-up, we have played all 3 sessions that I planned. Also, any feedback is appreciated.
Plot Summary: Seemingly random people are murdered in the poorer areas of Alkenstar city. It turns out that a bored noble and his enamored investor have thought of a new, sickening way to entertain themselves. By adding some rare crystals to clockwork assassins, they are able not only to pilot them remotely but also "feel" like they are them and enjoy their kills. The PCs are hired to investigate, are ambushed by clockwork assassins too. They discover the crystals from the body of an assassin they manage to defeat. They follow the trail of the crystals through the mana wastes, find out what is happening in the dangerous mine where the crystals can be mined and return to Alkenstar to confront the noble and his inventor partner in his skyscraper apartment.
Zak: Human Gunslinger with the Way of the Drifter
Lirianne: Human Gunslinger with Way of the Pistolero. I allowed him to treat Pair Weapon Reload as a Gunslinger feat. Still, after Session 1 he was so disappointed with the performance of playing with Dual Pistols that he changed to Way of the Sniper.
Nikkit: Ratfolk Inventor with the Companion Innovation Clankers. Low Strength, played with Rapier and Dueling Pistol but quickly switched to Rapier and Shield.
Grub: Lizardfolk Fighter with a single bastard sword and empty hand for Feats such as Combat Grab, etc. He basically acted as our non-guns & gears benchmark.
Notes We are playing with the no-level to proficiency variant rules. Also, like our usual campaigns, I am designing the sessions to be cinematic, setpiece affairs. Meaning, all of our encounters are complex encounters with high difficulty. 95% of the encounters we play are XP 120 and above.
The PCs are hired to investigate and start by randomly patrolling the streets at night hoping to be targeted. After a few nights with no results, they are ambushed by a local gang.
List of Enemies:
4 Level 2 Ruffians. Built like Ruffian Rogue NPCs but with AoO. They start the combat in pairs blocking the way forward and backward Cost: 12XP * 4 = 48 XP
4 Level 2 Musketeers. Also built like Rogue NPCs wielded Musket Rifles with Firearm Ace. They are strategically placed high places such as 2nd story windows and a rooftop. Cost: 12XP * 4 = 48 XP
1 Level 7 Ratfolk Alchemist with the Alchemical Shot feat. He starts combat in the metallic ramp above the PCs. Cost: 36 XP
Total Encounter Cost: 126 XP
The encounter was fun but a bit on the easy side. The rogue NPCs didn't get many hits and the alchemist missed quite a lot too. It was cool seeing the gunlingers dispatching the musketeers at the higher ground. The Fighter had trouble being useful in the fight after dispatching the rogues at the ground level.
I am wondering what is the final roll for a Heightened Heal spell cast as a 2 action spell. Upon reading it might read to be extra 1d8+8 per extra level. But back when we started playing we found it a huge amount of healing (it severely outpaces spell damage scaling which is usually 2d6 per extra level) so we changed our reading of it. We now read it to be as +1d8 if it is 1 action and +8 if it is a 2 action. But I am not sure anymore. So what is it, illustrating with an example:
A. A 5th level heal cast as 2 actions heals 5d8+40 hp
B. A 5th level heal cast as 2 actions heals 1d8+40 hp
I'm not surprised you couldn't get him to take a risk on unstable. As mentioned in the welcome thread, the version that's in the file was a mistake and will not be the final version; you won't have to gamble your turn like that during an encounter. If there's a gamble, it'll be for the consequences that happen to you after.
Hi Mark, that is great to hear. The player in my group who built and played an Inventor in our playtest session was lamenting how over-restricted the Unreliable keyword is. It becomes even more obvious at higher levels (we played at 8) where you simply skip Unstable feats because they are subpar options (but are so cool).
Any chance we get an update of the playtest document rather than wait till the end? Also, a fix on making a dual pistolero solve their reload problem would be appreciated.
Well the way I see it that inventor is more of martial than "okay you can three times per battle shoot huge laser beam", so unstable options more of give them fun options and DC 17 is for "ah you desperately actually need to do it again or want gambling"
I see your point, but Champion is a Martial, with the highest armor proficiency progression to boot. Champion still easily gets 3 focus points. Basically, the more focus Feats you get the more you build up your capacity. With Unstable you peak at 1 making taking more than one Unstable feat undesirable. Which is a pity because all of them are super cool.
I find the Unstable keyword a really interesting mechanic but unnecessarily underpowered. It is basically spending a feat to gain once per battle action (nobody is going to go for or make DC 17) to get the rough equivalent of a weak focus spell.
With focus spells you can quickly scale up to 2 and 3 focus points. But the Inventor gets no such capability. Focus points are also more easily replenished at 10+ level but the Inventor needs to reach level 14 to get the ability to use Unstable twice before a 10 minute rest.
Or am I missing something. Fingers crossed that the DC 17 is a typo.
Any news on the Errata front? I really look forward to errata on shields (not the basic rules but the very high hardness of sturdy shields and the extremely low hardness of all other shields) as well as some spells that can be encounter breaking (such as Repulsion). Hoping for some alchemist love too.
Are there any Clockworks in there? My group is nearing the finale of the (heavily abridged) Shattered Star AP and that part is full of clockworks. I previously made my own stats, but I am sure Paizo will come up with something cooler (as they have proven in the incredible Bestiary 1)
I see pages upon pages of discussion on the temperature table; I am surprised however that none addressed the very high Save bonuses the monsters have. The level 1 Naiad has a +8 in her Will save! How is that possible with such a low Wis modifier? The Legion Archon's saves are shockingly high as well, with a +17 Fort at Level 7. I heard several times that monster saves will be lowered in the final version but it seems this is not the case.
Me (as a GM) and my team were disappointed with the high DCs in the playtest rules, because effect-inflicting spells rarely took hold. This promotes the blaster type of caster (where even a failed save will result in some damage output) and makes fewer tactical options viable.
On a similar note I also see the skill modifiers being very high. The level 7 Archon has a +15 in Perception!
Full Name
Librarian Vaylund
Race
Iron Hands
About Librarian Vaylund
Stats:
50 WS
45 BS
50 WP
40 Int
50 Tgh (Unnat. Tgh x2)
40 Per (+10 Sight/Hear)
40 ST (Unnat. St. x2) (+20 in Armor)
50 AG
30 Fel
Chapter Trapping: Iron Left hand (+10 Delicate Manipulation)
Chapter Demeanor:
Iron and Hate
The Battle-Brothers of the Iron Hands appear to many as something of a contradiction, one which grows more extreme as more of their flesh is shorn from their bodies and replaced with cold steel. Those Iron Hands that have undergone many augmetics treatments appear coldly inanimate in their expressions, their voices replaced by monotone vox-casters and their bionic eyes unblinking. Yet, in truth, they see the inside with an anger that grows stronger with age and experience, becoming ever purer as more and more flesh is replaced.
Iron Hands brethren abhor any trace of weakness, even more so than other Chapters. They are extremely puritanical in their drive to identify and purge weakness, and they are damning when they perceive it in others around them. They are quick to anger, even if their anger is sometimes expressed in coldly flat, mechanical tones. They are blunt and uncaring of any offence they might give in their criticisms of others, even the staunchest of allies. When confronted with allies who
themselves are quick to anger, it is not unheard of for bitter rguments to erupt, and even for blows to be struck.
In battle, the Iron Hands are coldly resolute, seemingly unmoved by their own losses. They utilise their anger and their hatred of weakness, identifying their enemy’s vulnerabilities and exploiting them ruthlessly. While the Iron Hands seek ultimately to purge and militate against what they perceive as their own weakness, they also seek out the weakness in their foes in order to punish it without mercy.
Many Iron Hands Battle-Brothers scourge their flesh, inflicting pain and scarring on themselves as a constant reminder of the weakness of the biological. As more of their bodies are augmented, the areas of available flesh are reduced, until those few that are still visible are a mass of scar tissue. Only when even these last few shreds of the
Space Marine’s biological inheritance is gone is he truly free of physical pain, for their implants may be sensate, but
they can never know hurt.
History:
A brother of the Iron hand abhors weakness of his own flesh as much as his enemy. He doesn't take prisoners and is ruthless in close quarter combat, able to focus 10,000 years of Chapter anger towards a single foe. However, decades of battle has not quenched his thirst for vengeance against those who took their beloved Primarch Ferrus Manus.
The Iron Hands re-conquered the heretic Conqtal sub-sector with swiftness and fury, subduing many planets before any resistance could be formed. That all changed on the capital world of Shardenus, where Brother Vaylund's vanguard fought against foul daemons and warp spawn beyond counting. A turning point in the battle was when brother Vaylund witnessed a mind-wrenching spectacle that almost led to his descent into madness. The roiling energies of the anomaly swelled in the skies overhead and reality itself warped and twisted. Under a mental assault that would have reduced most mortal warriors to gibbering husks, he heard the eath-screams of warriors not yet even born and witnessed the guttering of the brightest of stars. Upon regaining his wits, he found that his squad had been slaughtered and that he was barely alive with most of an arm and leg gone. His squad had held the line long enough for the chapter’s more experienced librarians to close the rift.
Brother Vaylund would never be the same. After multiple cybernetic replacements,quite common in the chapter, he took assignments that further isolated himself, but a necessary step in his quest for lore. He knew he would need to be stronger and continued to push his limits. Vaylun would not rest until every threat to humanity and his Chapter were dead. As one of the few who with the willpower to overcome and survive horrendous warp events, it’s his duty to seek out what weaker fleshed men could not.
Vaylund's latest post was aboard a ship escorting an explorator fleet that was raided by the Dark Eldar. In a daring attempt to buy time for the fleet his squad stormed the lead ship and nearly succeeded in taking out the bridge before being wounded and incapacitated. Upon awaking the world was very different and the his connection to the warp chocked. Stripped of everything he remained a prisoner for whatever means the Dark Eldar could devise. Even through the torture, his hatred kept him conscious, as it was greater than any physical pain they could inflict. The scars he would bear with pride until the flesh could be scourged for more appropriate mechanical replacements.
Bionics and Implants:
Flesh is Weak x2
BQ Bionic Right Leg
BQ Bionic Right Arm
EQ Bionic Left Hand
Psy Powers:
Reading:
Action: Full, Opposed: No, Range: 5 metres x PR. Sustained: Yes
Description: Diviners can read a person’s aura, the unconscious
projection of his being in to the Warp. This is a very pale shadow,
unnoticed by most beings, but a diviner can study this aura to
learn about the person. When the psyker activates divination,
he can attempt to read the aura of any person he can see. The
level of information he gains depends on the PR at which he
manifests the power as detailed on Table 6–11: Reading.
A psyker can only maintain this power on one target. If he
wishes to divine the well-being of a different person, he must
activate the power again
Iron arm
Action: Half or Reaction
Opposed: No , Range: Self. Sustained: Yes
Description: The Librarian sheathes his arm in an
impenetrable field of energy with the power to ward off
powerful melee attacks. While this power is in effect, the
Librarian gains one additional Reaction each round that may
only be used to parry, with a bonus on the Weapon Skill Test
to parry equal to 3 x PR. Note that this power prevents the
Librarian from using his arm for any other purpose, such as
wielding a weapon, climbing, and so on.
Avenger
Action: Full, Opposed: No, Range: 30m, Sustained: No
Description: The Librarian summons up the ancestors of his
Chapter and shapes them into a flaming vengeful avatar of
death. The construct then billows forward to incinerate those
in its path. The Avenger power works exactly like a shot from
an Adeptus Astartes heavy flamer (see page 145), with all the
usual chance to hit and set targets on fire. However, due to the
horrific nature of the psychic flames, the Penetration of the
attack is equal to 2 x PR
Deus Ex Ferrum
Action:Full, Opposed:No, Range:1 metre radius x PR, Sustained:Yes
Description:The Iron Hands Librarian focuses his mind and
links his iron will to the strength of his augmetics, bolstering
himself and his allies. The Librarian and a number of BattleBrothers equal to his Psy Rating within a number of metres of
the Librarian equal to his Psy Rating gain a +10 bonus to both
Strength and Toughness. This bonus is increased by +5 for every
cybernetic possessed by the affected Space Marine (The Flesh
Is Weak Talent counts its level towards these requirements). If
used at the Unfettered Level, this Power is a Half Action. If used
at the Push Level, this Power is a Free Action.
Requisition:
15 Starting from Sponsor
20 Starting from Sponsor and fully covered in Armor from previous match.
