| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I find it depends on the mood of the players and whether or not they have a character in mind. When players don't have anything particular in mind, rolling for stats in order can be a good way to get the creative juices flowing and provide them with inspiration for a character.
If you have a specific character in mind then I think point buy is the way to go.
Rolling 4d6, drop the lowest, any order, averages out to a 20 pt. buy much of the time. Only a fool would take option 1. or 3. if they understood that. ;-)I always give three options.
-elite stat array
-4d6 drop lowest arranged in the order rolled
-15 point buy (no points given for buy downs)There are a few who prefer rolled stats. Certain people tend to be afraid of rolling poorly and stay away from rolls. But in the end everyone has fun. Rolled in order is like opening a surprise gift sometimes you get a brand new game console other times you get socks. But if getting socks doesn't send you into a RAGE of "why can't I be the best" and you can have fun with the poor rolls as much as you can with the awesome ones then this IS the best method for you.
Except that you don't play an average roll.
Nor will that 4d6 in order always give you something you're interested in playing.Even not in order, rolled stats that come out to X point buy tend to be worth less than an actual X point buy, since you can't optimize them.
Exactly this.
Take it from my resident lovable munchkin, the best option is always 1. But then power gamers leave nothing to chance.
I've started letting my players just pick their stats out of thin air. Nothing's gone wrong with it yet. :)That is what my Legion game did too, it worked just fine as there were checks in balances put in place. Of coarse not all super-heroes are equal but people liked this concept quite a bit I found.
LONG LIVE THE LEGION
I still feel awful that I couldn't keep up with the pbp...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Its the only way I've played D&D and prefer it.
If it's the only way you've played, how do you know that you prefer it?
I've started letting my players just pick their stats out of thin air. Nothing's gone wrong with it yet. :)That is what my Legion game did too, it worked just fine as there were checks in balances put in place. Of coarse not all super-heroes are equal but people liked this concept quite a bit I found.
LONG LIVE THE LEGION
I still feel awful that I couldn't keep up with the pbp...
It's ok, to tell you the truth, the game mechanics worked out well but the player search was a horrible experience. PBP is to slow so I took it to Roll20 and found players but none of them agreed about Legion style or they couldn't roleplay characters, they would miss to many games, etc. So I finally had to pull the plug on things.
So the game is on hold for the time being. Just couldn't find the right players.
I've started letting my players just pick their stats out of thin air. Nothing's gone wrong with it yet. :)That is what my Legion game did too, it worked just fine as there were checks in balances put in place. Of coarse not all super-heroes are equal but people liked this concept quite a bit I found.
LONG LIVE THE LEGION
I still feel awful that I couldn't keep up with the pbp...
It's ok, to tell you the truth, the game mechanics worked out well but the player search was a horrible experience. PBP is to slow so I took it to Roll20 and found players but none of them agreed about Legion style or they couldn't roleplay characters, they would miss to many games, etc. So I finally had to pull the plug on things.
So the game is on hold for the time being. Just couldn't find the right players.
I am slowly learning roll 20. I don't know if I will ever be 100% with it but I would.gladly pick up matter eater lad again. I should also probably pick up my fanfiction again.
Basically the only three skills you need to know are how to log in, how to roll dice, and how to click and drag. The last can be omitted if your GM moves all your tokens for you.
Everything else vastly improves your quality of life, but aren't necessary to play the game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I can't for the life of me understand such a view.It's probably due to starting with Basic D&D and roll 3d6 in order stat gen method.
In that method, rolling an 18 was very rare. Even when it switched to 4d6b3, an 18 was still fairly rare. So having an 18 put a character in an imaginary little elite club.
When people started using PB and buying an 18, that imaginary little elite club became a free-for-all that anyone and everyone could enter.
People use to tell stories about that one time Bob rolled an 18 - it was an event. No one tells stories about that time Bob bought an 18.
My players reminisce about the time they played a ranger who became a city vigilante. They talk about the time their Bard became Baron of a small wilderness country. They talk about fighting dragons, old ones, and beholders. They never ever talk about their stats. Ever. I guess that explains why PB isnt seen as "cookie cutter" or "unearned" by me and the homies.
Nah. they can all use the same one if they want. That was actually the original approach - six sets, pick the best for everyone to use. Then we decided someone might want a more MAD array and someone else might want the SAD one.My preference for that is everyone rolls a set and then every one uses whichever of those sets they like.
Keeps some of the randomness, but also the balance.
Help me understand - you're saying "6 players, 6 suites, pool and distribute?"
If I'm not mistaken, that does seem a little like the sort of setup that can lead to players bidding Quatloos against each other....
Yep, this is how my group does it as well. It eliminates the worry about ending up with a poorly-rolled array that prevents you from playing the concept you want, but has a bit more variability to it than just "use the elite array".
My players reminisce about the time they played a ranger who became a city vigilante. They talk about the time their Bard became Baron of a small wilderness country. They talk about fighting dragons, old ones, and beholders. They never ever talk about their stats. Ever.In that method, rolling an 18 was very rare. Even when it switched to 4d6b3, an 18 was still fairly rare. So having an 18 put a character in an imaginary little elite club.
When people started using PB and buying an 18, that imaginary little elite club became a free-for-all that anyone and everyone could enter.
People use to tell stories about that one time Bob rolled an 18 - it was an event. No one tells stories about that time Bob bought an 18.
This.
This so so so so so much.
|
With rolling of dice it is possible to end up with a very average character, not so with point buy (you could but why would you). Average Jill/Joe generally does not decide to pick up a sword and go kill monsters, and if they do they likely won't last long. Most RPGs are designed around heros/anti-heros not Old No-name. It might be fun for awhile to play that character for some people, but I wouldn't want to.
I am one of the strange ones, I guess, in that I never really have a concrete concept of a character when starting out. I prefer the random "chaos" that rolling brings, and usually allow that to start the creativity going.
I would do a completely random character if I could (roll the stats, roll the race, gender, and class as well), and see what comes from it. Honestly, that sounds like a much more fun game to me than everyone having a concept set in stone and fiddling with the numbers until they come out with a powerhouse of their chosen class.
Don't get me wrong, I find nothing wrong with that style, and have done that type before. Yet, something like what I mentioned seems to be demonized by many people now. But like I said, I must be a strange freak.
Yes, that's the type of thing I was worried about. I "built" the term in my head while I was typing, just to mean someone whose focus is on fun and engaging gameplay, then afterwards I was like "Wait, I think I've heard that term used before, and I think it might have been something bad." So I removed it.like derogatory.Explain "gamist"Actually, I decided to edit that out of my post, lest the term carry any sort of baggage I might not be aware of and alter the meaning of my post.
Anything that ends in "ist" must be bad :)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My players reminisce about the time they played a ranger who became a city vigilante. They talk about the time their Bard became Baron of a small wilderness country. They talk about fighting dragons, old ones, and beholders. They never ever talk about their stats. Ever.In that method, rolling an 18 was very rare. Even when it switched to 4d6b3, an 18 was still fairly rare. So having an 18 put a character in an imaginary little elite club.
When people started using PB and buying an 18, that imaginary little elite club became a free-for-all that anyone and everyone could enter.
People use to tell stories about that one time Bob rolled an 18 - it was an event. No one tells stories about that time Bob bought an 18.
This.
This so so so so so much.
Ah, got it now...someone talking about getting a good stat through rolling is badwrongfun. I wish someone would just put a list together of all the badwrongfun so I can reference that and learn more on how to ridicule others for doing things on that list.
We're here to roll dice and have a good time.
If I want point buy, it's time to play white wolf.
You say it like that's a bad thing. :)
The more I can make Pathfinder like Storyteller, the better, as far as I'm concerned.
The fact that there are people who go for the 4d6 or 3d6 style of attribute generation isn't exactly a world revelation.
I remember the days when that was the only known method. I also know the numerous additions to that formula to skew the numbers higher, or just the flat out cheating from the guy who had this amazing record of generating 18/00 Strength fighters and rangers.
I am completely done with any other method BUT point-buy. If I want powerful PC's I bump up the budget appropriately.
Except that one time I made a fighter because I got 18/98 for strength.
He sure did get disintegrated quick.
Ah, got it now...someone talking about getting a good stat through rolling is badwrongfun. I wish someone would just put a list together of all the badwrongfun so I can reference that and learn more on how to ridicule others for doing things on that list.
This is what I was referring to earlier when I said some people view rolling as a criminal offense. I think rolling versus PB is the gamer equivalent of discussing politics in public. Some people have such strong feelings about it that they can't help but attack people on the other side.
Wait, so someone says "My players tell stories about XYZ, not about what stats they rolled", and Fake Healer and Tormsskull have categorized that as labeling rolled stats as criminal badwrongfun? That's... wow.
I dunno about FH, but that's not what I got from Tormsskull.
I assume no one uses Method V...?
Our group tends to go with "roll 4d6, drop lowest, arrange as you see fit."
With an additional house rule that rolling four 6's gets you a 19, and rolling four 1's gets you a 2- and you can always claim a lower number than you rolled, if you're so inclined.
We tried Elite array, we tried point buy, but we just ended up with what felt like cookie cutter characters to us, so we don't use 'em anymore.
Partly it's because having a potentially hilarious swing of ability scores is amusing, and partly because your character is more than their stats and it's lot of fun when a guy with no scores higher than, like, 12 ends up being the leader of the group.
I assume no one uses Method V...?
Might help if you actually explained what that is.
Wait, so someone says "My players tell stories about XYZ, not about what stats they rolled", and Fake Healer and Tormsskull have categorized that as labeling rolled stats as criminal badwrongfun? That's... wow.
Yeah, I don't have words. I've seen some terrible misreadings of posts on this forum, but that reaction to those comments is easily in the top three.
Especially after I just said that my own group uses the "everyone rolls an array, then everyone picks the one they like most from the pool of arrays" method.
Our group tends to go with "roll 4d6, drop lowest, arrange as you see fit."
With an additional house rule that rolling four 6's gets you a 19, and rolling four 1's gets you a 2- and you can always claim a lower number than you rolled, if you're so inclined.
I always thought "reroll 1s" was implied in any roll-stats option but apparently that's not a default assumption?
So I guess I need to append that to my group's thing.
"Roll 4d6, reroll all 1s, drop lowest; all arrays are then collected and each person can choose the array they like most from the pool, and arranges the six numbers as they prefer."
Our group tends to go with "roll 4d6, drop lowest, arrange as you see fit."
With an additional house rule that rolling four 6's gets you a 19, and rolling four 1's gets you a 2- and you can always claim a lower number than you rolled, if you're so inclined.
I always thought "reroll 1s" was implied in any roll-stats option but apparently that's not a default assumption?
So I guess I need to append that to my group's thing.
"Roll 4d6, reroll all 1s, drop lowest; all arrays are then collected and each person can choose the array they like most from the pool, and arranges the six numbers as they prefer."
Lord no, that's not assumed. It's not actually suggested in any of the official variants on stat generation that I'm aware of.
It really bumps up you averages, probably more than you expect. It's actually one of the approaches that really bothers me about most of the rolling variants, since it's usually justified as avoiding really bad scores, but what it does is give another shot at a high one. Makes rolling a 1 better than a 2 or maybe even 3.
For just helping the really bad rolls, I prefer just treating the ones as twos.
FYI, 4d6d1 reroll 1s statistically identical to 4d5d1 + 3.
I assume no one uses Method V...?Might help if you actually explained what that is.In 2E it was the standard 4d6 drop 1, arrange as desired.
There was no Method V in AD&D, though 4d6-1 was Method I.
It was AD&D, specifically the version from Unearthed Arcana for generating human characters only.
Approximately:
Roll 9d6 take the best 3 for your primary stat. If this gives a figure lower than the minimum for the class, use that instead.
8d6 take 3 for your second stat
7d6 for third stat
And so on, down to 4d6.
You got to roll seven times because you had a comelines stat as well as the usual six.
I have never met a ref who allowed it.
Well I was waiting to see if this post was going to be modded due to the "using an alias to insult someone" rule that is sometimes applied and sometimes not, but since it hasn't:
It's probably due to you not knowing what "earned" means.
Just because you don't agree with the use of a word in a certain context doesn't mean the user doesn't understand the definition of the word. Childish behavior Jiggy.
My players reminisce about the time they played a ranger who became a city vigilante. They talk about the time their Bard became Baron of a small wilderness country. They talk about fighting dragons, old ones, and beholders. They never ever talk about their stats. Ever. I guess that explains why PB isnt seen as "cookie cutter" or "unearned" by me and the homies.
That's awesome - but I think you missed the point. If you use PB, why would a player ever tell stories about their stats? "Dude, do you remember that time I bought an 18? That was really smart on my part."
Do your players ever talk about that time when the group almost died but then Jane scored that critical hit to save the day? Its kind of like that.
Yeah, I don't have words. I've seen some terrible misreadings of posts on this forum, but that reaction to those comments is easily in the top three.
If you truly don't get it (and maybe you don't, I've not seen enough of your posts to know if this is a subtle troll or not), I'll give you a hint: Saying something like "This. This so so so so so much." Is "so so so so so" annoying.
At least we got 51 posts before the insults started.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm surprised how few people use the Organic Method from the 3.0 PHB:
1. Roll 4d6, in order.
2. Choose one stat to reroll. Keep the higher of the 2 rolls.
3. Switch two scores.
That's been my default system for years. Keeps the fun of randomness. Doesn't force someone to play a different class than they wanted.
My players reminisce about the time they played a ranger who became a city vigilante. They talk about the time their Bard became Baron of a small wilderness country. They talk about fighting dragons, old ones, and beholders. They never ever talk about their stats. Ever.In that method, rolling an 18 was very rare. Even when it switched to 4d6b3, an 18 was still fairly rare. So having an 18 put a character in an imaginary little elite club.
When people started using PB and buying an 18, that imaginary little elite club became a free-for-all that anyone and everyone could enter.
People use to tell stories about that one time Bob rolled an 18 - it was an event. No one tells stories about that time Bob bought an 18.
This.
This so so so so so much.
Ah, got it now...someone talking about getting a good stat through rolling is badwrongfun. I wish someone would just put a list together of all the badwrongfun so I can reference that and learn more on how to ridicule others for doing things on that list.
Add misinterpreting posts to the list too
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My players reminisce about the time they played a ranger who became a city vigilante. They talk about the time their Bard became Baron of a small wilderness country. They talk about fighting dragons, old ones, and beholders. They never ever talk about their stats. Ever. I guess that explains why PB isnt seen as "cookie cutter" or "unearned" by me and the homies.That's awesome - but I think you missed the point. If you use PB, why would a player ever tell stories about their stats? "Dude, do you remember that time I bought an 18? That was really smart on my part."
Do your players ever talk about that time when the group almost died but then Jane scored that critical hit to save the day? Its kind of like that.
We never talk about rolling "18s" though we talk about the times that one person had great stats and no one else did. Rolling stats wrecked more games for us then it ever made better or memorable. I understand what you are saying, im just providing another perspective. No insults, no badwrongfun, just a case of one man's feature being another man's bug.
Peace?
If someone rolls an 18 I feel like they earned it, if someone buys an 18 it cheapens the value of an 18 IMO.
I don't really care what other people do, but I value a rolled 18 over a selected 18 when I build my own characters. I don't consider it earned though - just lucky.
(I generally prefer 3d6, in order rather than the more high powered methods, so that probably affects my perspective significantly).
Man, this thread got a bit out of hand, eh? :)
But I don't complain, since I'm still wrestling how to do ability generation in my upcoming Dark Sun game most comments here were immensely helpful.
An additional problem with random rolling I "found out" yesterday was when I looked up a few options for one of my players (who's still not super-experienced in Pathfinder), and I noticed how many Feats still have prerequisites like "Str 15" or some other. This could be a massive hurdle for someone playing a Str 13 fighter. I realize it's a corner case, but still... hm.
I'm surprised how few people use the Organic Method from the 3.0 PHB:
1. Roll 4d6, in order.
2. Choose one stat to reroll. Keep the higher of the 2 rolls.
3. Switch two scores.That's been my default system for years. Keeps the fun of randomness. Doesn't force someone to play a different class than they wanted.
Interesting... sounds like a good compromise between dealing with the dice results you get and playing the character concept you wanted. I've never played 3.0, but I think I've got a PHB lying around here somewhere that I can show to my players. Thanks for the pointer!
If you want a little bit of randomness, but want to skew medium-high on stats, something like 2d5+8 has good results.
I'm considering just letting my players pick their stats for any future games though. Beyond level 1 or 2, even having all 18's is a minuscule advantage.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well I was waiting to see if this post was going to be modded due to the "using an alias to insult someone" rule that is sometimes applied and sometimes not, but since it hasn't:
It's probably due to you not knowing what "earned" means.Just because you don't agree with the use of a word in a certain context doesn't mean the user doesn't understand the definition of the word. Childish behavior Jiggy.
I didn't insult you. All I did was point out a factual incorrectness. It's not like I said (or implied) that you were stupid or illiterate or anything. My statement was completely confined to the identification of an objective error. (And yes, it was an objective error, not a matter of how each of us feels about the use of the word "earned".)
I have no intention of insulting you. That does not mean I'm not allowed to point out factual incorrectness.
Just like how, if there were an obscure alternate definition of "earn" that made your original usage correct and you pointed it out to me just like I pointed out your error to you, that also wouldn't be an insult.
It is not childish or insulting to correct factual errors.