W-wait, is that why I can’t find anything regarding Replay rules? The “1-2 months after the new edition launches” was wrong!? We are STILL WAITING for clarification on what those points we have can be used for? Sigh... please tell me I’m wrong and there is something in all this mess that is clear on what we can do in 1e Pathfinder Society regarding replays.
Kodyboy wrote: This ruling on shields makes them worthless. If it were accurate, I want it in writing before I take it seriously. i.e., Hardness 5 takes 8 damage, no Dents. 10-14 damage 1 dent, 15+ Damage 2 dents. It’s a slip of the tongue, I refuse to believe that something that took no damage becomes damaged. Yes read that again, this supposed “ruling” has something that didn’t take ANY damage, TAKE DAMAGE that eventually breaks it if it doesn’t take damage again. He was under pressure, stress, long day, lack of or too much caffeine, any reasonable excuse over what’s been said. I’d been more than fine if it took a Dent if it was only in excess of Hardness. If this ruling stands, just rework it into something else but this. [Insert Reasonable Suggestion Here] Sad they are reworking Dying, but I can understand why, the up and down game was strong last session.
Given Non-lethal isn’t a damage type anymore, and you’re more than likely to be hitting a target that is prone, flat-footed, blind, or all of the above plus some other penalties to AC. I don’t see a problem.
Tectorman wrote: So items can only have a certain amount of potency or properties depending on how well-made they are. So what happens if I'm a low-level starting character and I can only afford a lesser quality weapon, but it's important to me that that specific weapon (and not some substitute that I come across at higher levels) be the weapon I use for my entire career? Can it be reforged (by me or a hired NPC) into a higher quality weapon? Will the CRB have the Masterwork Transformation spell? ^This^ Sorry if me and Tectorman missed something, but I’d appreciate an answer to this question. Do I really have to Sell my trusty Longsword for a new or used Longsword of greater quality because my Old one can’t support the runes and/or Properties?
Snakers wrote: Isn't there a feat or ability somewhere that is like spell penetration for kineticists? That increases CL without the damage? Do you mean Spell Penetration? Because that already works with Kineticists Blasts or Talents that care about SR.
GM Rednal wrote: If you think there's an uh-oh here, you're overthinking it. ^^ The feat has a calculation to get you a new effective caster level (for overcoming SR, etc), and a calculation to get you a new effective Kineticist level (for damage). Both of these matter, because Kinetic Blasts are supposed to have those values. I know and I seem to be failing to explain to you that their Effective Kineticists Level already tells you their Caster Level. Because we all know thats what that means. So Why mention it in the Feat? I can't make it any clearer at this point. Sorry I failed you.
GM Rednal wrote: Because Caster Level affects things like Spell Resistance, which totally affects Kinetic Blasts, and Caster Level can be different from someone's Kineticist Level. OK so, I seem to need to make this clearer. My bad. We all know that already about Caster Level. What I just went through Explaining, was that the need to mention Caster Level in the Description of the feat was Unnecessary in face of the fact that If they just Mentioned Kineticists Level the same way that I did in the Edit that we could already gleam what their Caster Level is based off the Effective Total Kineticists Level For the purposes of Overcoming SR and other factors Involving Caster Level. So the fact that they mention Caster Level in a feat that deals with Calculating Damage for a Kineticists Blast, leaves room for interpretation that Caster level has some bearing on Blast Damage.Actually... now that I think about it... Since the feat base, as is(No Editing), Increases the effective Kineticists Level that means it effectively Changes the Blasts effective Spell Level because as we all know by now a Blasts Effective Spell level is equal to the Half the Kineticists Level. And this feat changes that... Uh Oh...
Oskar Metalsound wrote:
Nope, Because why Even mention CL in the Interweave Composite Blast Description... Well all know that intrinsically that Kineticists CL is equal to their Level, As it has been stated MANY time through out this Thread an even in your Post. So If they had Worded it just like this: edited from the Occult Adventures Book wrote: The composite blast’s Kineticists level is equal to the average of the levels of both participants and deals damage as the appropriate composite blast created by a kineticist of that level (for example, if a 10th-level pyrokineticist and a 6thlevel hydrokineticist worked together to create a steam blast, its base damage would be 4d6+4 points of fire damage and 4d6+4 points of bludgeoning damage). See, with that simple replacement and removal, Of Kineticists Level instead of Caster Level, we have no room for confusion or misinterpretation on how the interaction between Caster Level and Kineticists Level effect Their Blasts Damage. BECAUSE ONLY mentioning Kineticists Level and the Ultimate Total of the Average we Already know what their CL is because We all already Know that Class Level = Caster Level. So why Involve it at all when calculating their Blasts Damage.
Chess Pwn wrote:
Actually, upon review of the thread following my reply to you I noticed a discrepancy with everyone, including myself, referencing a Kineticists Blasts and their CHARACTER LEVEL effecting their damage during the beginning of this Thread. This is a mistake. As your Character level is the sum of your Class Levels if you Multi-Class. I admitted to being wrong about the CL=HD thing. but then I found in the rules of Caster level that Caster level was Equal to CLASS Level. This makes more sense, in regards to how the interaction between Kineticists Level and Caster level effect their damage. So here I go, after looking over all the posts I've made and the posts that refuted them, one more time. SLA's are effectively spells, thus subject to some of the same rules as Spells, and since Caster level equals Class Level(In this case Kineticists Level) and Spells(and thus SLA's) can have their Caster Level lowered to effect the variables dependent on Damage, Range and others factors, this means with all these rules in mind,(BARRING the whole Effective Spell Level thing) that Kineticists could have lowered their Damage according to the rules. Also Mentioned before, because its not stated explicitly in the rules that lowering your CL for SLA's doesn't change their Variable Damage UNLESS there's Spell Level Involved that requires a MINIMUM CL to cast said spell. Which is the case with Kineticists, With Kineticists Blasts, because Their Blasts Effective Spell Level is equal to their Half their Level. And So because of THAT Specific Provisio about Effective Spell Level of Kinetic Blasts, Kineticists can NOT lower their Damage on their Blasts according to the rules. YAY we all agree that you cant lower their Damage! Just not on how(for the most part).
Chess Pwn wrote:
I will only make it clear as to why with you(and a couple others) that I have "evaded" your queries, this last time. I have Answered a question very similar to yours, and some others, already. Doesnt matter how differently you phrase it, I still saw it as the same as something I already addressed previously. Sorry I haven't bothered to site which specific posts I'm referring to. Seems to me as a waste of time when its all here, in this thread for you to read already.
GM Rednal wrote:
yeah thats eerily close to what graystone said. I agree. EDIT: but not with Chess Pwn(sorry thought it best to clarify that)
Chess Pwn wrote:
Sorry, this sentence is very confusing I know I'm not very good with punctuation either(Or grammar in general. in my case), but could you please try again so I and others can understand what you are trying to say here. EDIT: Sorry, Seems as though you are serious about the later half of your post. I thought you were egging me on, because I didn't want to repeat myself again. Still won't, Already explained why it is as it is. That's why I haven't properly responded to any of your posts, thus far. Because you have only ever voiced the same opinion as others who posted before you.
Chess Pwn wrote:
I understand now, but when you first explained it, and you made a "16 that never changes" Change into 22 so understandably it gets a lil hard to hold to the previous statement of "that never changes" when you change it. Didn't want to repeat myself but you made me. Seeing as others have taken issue with me doing just that in this thread.
Chess Pwn wrote:
the fact that directly following you changed it by giving them a Headband of +6 which made the 16 a 22. That's a change in numbers, I don't know why you thought it wasn't, but I did. Sorry, your example is Confusing.
Chess Pwn wrote:
This is potentially wrong, I think the answer is 35 damage, as any caster class based off INT would reasonably put their +1 to ability score at every 4th, 8th, and 12th level into INT. making their INT Score a 25 thus making their spells damage a 35. Its only potentially wrong because they could have put it into other stats for some weird reason. Not everyone is a Min-Maxer.
TOZ wrote:
I'm only human, its hard to take all my emotions out of the equation. Sorry If I offended anybody, I'll apologize again for the Dev Worship again, as that was wholly uncalled for. TriOmegaZero wrote:
I Agree. EDIT: are you and TriOmegZero the same person? because I shortened TriOmegaZeros name earlier to TOZ and I don't want there to be any confusion on who I was mentioning there, Which was TriOmegaZero.
TrinitysEnd wrote:
In this post, I have already Conceded that it doesn't work, because someone cited a rule. I was RELIEVED when someone finally did that. Instead of pointing at the same thing I did and just saying "that's not how it works" when I explained why it does within the rules. Just because you agree that they're right in saying I'm wrong doesn't mean I didn't make the effort to point out why I am right. It's weird people think I feel attacked, just Irritated that their post has no rules citation that proves me wrong. Which it didn't, everything I cited up to that point, was right, effective Spell Level is part of the rules I cited up to that Point. If not for that, you could lower Kineticists Blasts Damage by the rules. Sorry I didn't think of Kinetic Blasts effective spell level sooner, shame because this was fun. EDIT: got me there TOZ. Still right though ;p
QuidEst wrote:
Up to until the post about Kinetic Blasts having an Effective Spell Level, I was discussing how the existing rules worked. did you not read my last post, did you not read the suggested Errata I made? Not hard for someone who has read the entire thread to gleam what can be done from there. Here, Just take this and repurpose it for a FAQ. Sorry I made an example, thought it would make things simpler.
Meirril wrote:
I already addressed this in this thread. please before commenting or posting anything, do try and make an effort to read the entire thread so as you dont continue to make the same mistake in other threads. I regret bringing up that example, I knew there was a chance people would hang on it for some reason. The intention was for all kineticists to be able to lower their damage on all their blast for the purposes of not out right killing their intended target (the reasons don't matter) without having to be a Specific Element(Wood) or waste a Feat slot(Expanded Metakinesis(Merciful)) to only be able to deal non-leathal damage. Which has been addressed in this thread to be useless when you do 50+ non-lethal damage to a Commoner with 3hp and 10ish CON. But doing 1d6+2(for Physical)+half(for energy) CON+ Elemental Overflow(which can be suppressed). Leans more in favor of the Commoners Survival. Not at certain levels and Higher Con Bonuses, but still.
Vrischika111 wrote:
Whats this? a rules citation that doesn't parallel my own and just straight up say No this doesn't work because they are different things. When I have Pointed out that they are the same thing. Reading that and how lowering Caster level says that if the CL isn't high enough for them to cast the level Spell required, I'd have to say that's the best case anyone here has brought up why they cant lower their damage. In fact, makes it Impossible, because nothing in the rules state that Lowering a SLA's CL lowers the spell level.I concede that thats why you can't lower Kineticists Blast Damage. Shame. Can we get a FAQ that would allow Kineticists to lower their Damage now?
As Far as I see it, I have, sorry its so hard to explain something like this to other people. If you or anyone else has a problem grasping the concept of what i have explained thus far, Then I'm stumped. I've even gone through the trouble already of explaining further Class Level and Caster Level being more closely related than before. I told you to keep up man and yet you fell behind again. Sorry if I offended you, and that your offense distracted you from reading my previous post between then and now. I would have PM'd you to keep up and not post it in the forums, but I can't, you wont let me and that's your right to do so.
Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
Dont put words in my Mouth if thats what you were doing, which it seems like it was. Also it says Under Caster Level in the Magic section of the CRB explaining Casting Spells. Caster Level is equal to Class Level and since SLA's Function like spells(also stated in the CRB under Getting Started). We have to draw from the same rules that effect spells when its not explicitly stated that they do not interact, as is the case with Metamagic Feats not working but Spell Focus and Elemental Focus does work with SLA's because its not explicitly stated that you can't. Am I wrong to assume that somewhere among all the forums that Elemental Focus works with the appropriate Kinetic Blasts Element. Searching...Nothing found specifically but i did find this
QuidEst wrote:
Don't go into thematic's when regarding something as delicate as Rules. Thematically a Person swinging a sword can chose to pull back some power, but seeing as there is no rule to say that you can, You can't. Why cant Kineticists pull from the same area of another plane of existence that they could when they were level one? I didn't want to bring up Thematic's because of arguments like this^ Please no one bring them up again and further derail this thread. EDIT: despite how much fun it is to bring them into an argument.
True, I can't make it any clearer at this point as to why I'm confused. when SLA's say they are both a Spell and not a Spell and when something says CL has some degree of bearing on damage. That you all look at the points I've made but not the lines I've draw between them. I understand that Caster Level and Class Level are different, but the only thing i asked you all to prescribe to is that since Kineticists are solely dependent on SLA's and nothing else. That the Rules that apply to SLA's apply to them as well. It's at this juncture that I should point out that me bringing up the CL = HD would cause some problems if they Multi-classed. So i was wrong to do so. But that's why when I found Interweave, it showed another layer to the CL Discussion regarding their Importance to their damage. Not to mention Caster level Equals Class level. So with all that, I have to concede, and ask only for clarification on whether or not a Kineticists Can lower their Damage. I presented a Solution, Why It should work already, and a way to avoid changing the rules in Kinetic Blasts damage being CL based. Which their damage Shouldn't be based on CL, It would cause too many problems and leave open room for abuse. You have to understand that I was a bit put off by people who only chimed in with scarce disapproval, Contributing nothing more to the Conversation. I only Ignored some people, but not TOZ and Graystone, I tried to respond to each of your rebuttals you had about my interpretation of the rules. Oskar Clearly didnt read everything as was apparent with a few others. Hence my need to repeat my self. Pointing out what you may have missed like I believed Mark missed because he seemed unsure of all the rules. Highlighting my need to go over them just in case there was something that would suggest that you could. I haven't Given up, I still think that rules are written say that you can, everything is there. So don't give up on me yet, things are Fun when we are talking about something that does less damage and literally had few other implications that could be potentially game breaking, as is the case with so many other Rules questions.
TriOmegaZero wrote: No, you're trying to prove that you're right. If you were actually trying to prevent deaths you would never have brought the subject up and just reduced the damage/told players they could reduce the damage. Sorry for trying to throw in some humor. Also Yeah, I am, thats the whole point of all this. I also realize now If I'm going to be suggesting a clarification and potential change in how Kinetic Blasts work I should present a small 'Provisio'. Suggested Errata Regarding Kinetic Blasts wrote: A higher level Kineticist can lower their damage of their blasts to an effective lower level Kineticist. This lowers their effective Caster Level for the purposes of Overcoming Spell Resistance and other relevant checks, Equal to the level of the Highest level of the Kinetic Blasts damage that the Kineticicst Lowered their Damage to. There, we maintain this separation of CL and Kinetic Blasts that you all want, and we keep the relevance of its CL on other things such as SR. Or Alternatively we get someone in here to say No again and all this means nothing, Where Kineticists are allowed to make more Orphans because they cant throttle their power for some reason. @Dragonborn3 Where? in this entire thread did they do that? Because if its the mark Post that I brought up, sorry If i have a hard time holding that to law when he says "I don't think" following him saying no to CL and SLA's. When I have presented the rules as written saying the Opposite.
Grailknight wrote:
Why? Seriously why the sudden separation of the two. I've done nothing but present why they are not separate, present to me a rule that says they don't or don't bother contributing anything at all instead of just saying "No"
@TriOmegaZero There we go again bringing up CL and SR like it Proves that CL effecting damage is a separate thing. When the same applies to Regular Spells. Lower CL to deal less damage and have lower chance to beat SR. It's not even a Double edged sword. Its more like using the Sword backwards or using a wooden one.
"The composite blast’s caster level is equal to the average of the caster levels of both participants and deals damage as the appropriate composite blast created by a kineticist of that level" Why would the Bold say that in the same sentence of Kineticists level and the effect it has on damage. it says "Equal" to a Kineticists of that Level. It mentions CL First then Kineticists level as if its a directly correlating effect on the power of the Composite Blast. Even before it mentions the average of the two and Kineticists Level.
graystone wrote:
Thats if you run under the assumption that the two are mutually exclusive. Which there is more evidence in the rules to suggest that they are not. As is the case with the Feat Interweave Composite Blast Where in fact CL has a Direct effect on how much Damage the resulting Blast does.
And yet they're both Shapes. KB are SLA's--->SLA's Function Like Spells---> Spells CL can be Lowered--->SLA without CL = HD--->KB has a CL--->CL can be Lowered because its effectively a Spell. @Val'bryn2 sorry I'd delete it but i cant anymore. I apologize, I just feel attacked because everyone else isnt seeing the lines I've draw out for them and it looked to me like it was because of what Mark said. Also Can rogues only use some of their sneak attack? Probably not, but they can certainly chose not to do Sneak attack when they can. These are two different cases, solely based off the fact that Sneak attack isnt a SLA. And regarding Metamagic feats. True. But Spell Focus effects SLA's.
How is it when something Functions like something else but isn't subject to the same rules that effect the original? Why is it when you can Lower your Caster level for a spell doesn't apply to SLA's when they functions like Spells and spells function based on CL and CL can be lowered to effect their variable damage and range like a spell because they seem to me to function just like a Spell which they do because its stated that they do. Oskar Metalsound wrote: None of that really matters though because Kineticist damage is not based on Caster Level, it's based on Kineticist Level. So a 9th level Kineticist can lower their caster level as much as they want, the ability still does damage as a 9th level Kineticist, because that is their level. and graystone questioned why i had to repeat myself. When I have gone to such great lengths to explain why I think this way.
Oskar Metalsound wrote:
except I did when I explained that SLA's work as spells and thus can have their Caster Level lowered to deal less damage.
graystone wrote:
Sorry I offended the word of your apparent God. I’m just trying to get things clarified. I only have to repeat myself because you all are holding to the word of Mark in a random post in a random forum that will be lost in time, only accessible through a very specific Google search. So as far as this topic is concerned, it seems as though the Rules say that in this instance, that you can lower Kineticists Blasts Damage. Sorry I brought it up, didn’t realize I was stirring up a hornets nest of Seifter Zealots defending his word. Despite the fact that when you follow the rules you find that he is seemingly wrong.
graystone wrote:
Spells like Searing Light are 1d8 per two Caster Levels. So lowering your max caster level of 8 to 2 should make you only roll 1d8. So when you read the rules regarding Castsr Level, then the rules Regarding SLA’s working as spells. Here,Following this line of logic the rules say that you can lower your caster level which effects various variables regarding the spell effected by it such as Damage and range. When looking at Kineticists Blasts with this rule in mind and you see a lack of CL mentioned you go back to the rules on SLA’s saying that it’s CL is equal to HD. A Kineticists Charcter Level equals Caster Level in other instances that call for Caster Level. Such as when referencing over coming SR. So why is it that suddenly with all the rules leading up to this point that there is this disconnect between CL and a Kineticists Blasts Damage and their ability to lower their caster level. When there is a spells example of this such as with Searing light where every two levels there is a damage increase and thusly lowering it every two levels you get lower damage that when a SLA works like a Spell in such a way that lowering your Effective CL by two or more, lowers your damage with that SLA. As is the case needed to lower your damage with kinetic Blasts seeing as they are similar in respects to most spells that are based on every two levels their damage increases and SLA’s work like spells. That’s my connection between the two, the rules as written.
graystone wrote:
Kineticists Blasts are SLAs, we all know this it’s in the rules, as per the rules referenced here Link We can gleam two things, 1st SLA’s somehow both work as spells and are not spells. Confusing yes. 2nd SLA’s when they don’t list a CL they are assumed to have a CL equal to their casters HD.Now with those two things in mind this rule Scroll down to Caster Level So now with all that presented to you all, you can understand my confusion regarding Kineticist being able to Not lower their damage. As the rules say that you can. EDIT: fixed the links(hopefully)
graystone wrote:
It’s Such a small thing to say yes to. It probably only come up once in a very specific situation. No one would even bother to write it down, and would likely never come up again. I find it hard to believe any GM would say no to a player doing less damage. Unless their an unbearable *. People tend to not play under those Types of GMs. The fact that it’s “pretty corner issue” means it’s very light on upkeep for GMs to keep track of. If even then, this is something the player alone keeps track of most of the time given its lack of weight on how their class functions. Regarding the CL. Mark could of missed that. It seems pretty important to the rules regarding Kineticists and how their Blasts work. I know Marks importance given the rules and this should be taken as the rules effectively, normally I would have read his word and been “okay”. but seeing as I have found other rules saying otherwise. I find no reason for this not to be discussed further.
TriOmegaZero wrote: I'm not at your table. I can't help you there. And until just now, no, I did not know this was for PFS. Most of the rules questions in this forum can be House ruled. Society is the only one that cares or matters for in most cases. I’ve presented all the things that would suggest that the rules as written say that you can. Mark can be wrong. No one knows all the rules, I learned a lot in the defense of this question being in favor of doing so. Pathfinder is a system that does in fact tell you what you can do. You just have to find them all, and remember them all or know where to.
You got me there, but even mark said he’d allow it. Listen we all know this isn’t for some homebrew campaign. This is for Society, as no GM would reasonably say no to this. It’s doing less damage with a class that already does less damage than a fighter of equal level and well plannned out build would be capable of. So who would complain about that. I just wanted it spelled out so people have more options than taking a feat or being a specific element to do non-lethal damage. Seems as though I can lower the damage for Foe Throw as is stands but for the purpose of not exploding farmer joe because I don’t want to kill him but I need to incapacitate him. I’m left with few options. Let someone else do it which could be bad as that let’s more time pass or I go up and punch him. A good option but not always available as one given various factors like distance, terrain, etc,. So help Society out, make it a lil less s%%!ty for Kineticists and others as well, and let them lower their Damage. not just for saving a friend but so we don’t make more Orphans to become PCs later on.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I think I just did, as I just presented a list of rules that apply to spellcasters and Kineticist are Psychic Spellcasters, but still spellcasters as referenced in the CRB that Mark mentions. And also in the link provided in my previous post, the logical conclusion I could come to would say that since Kineticists and their SLA blasts meet all the prerequisites for being able to be lowered in damage by effectively lowering their caster level that they can in fact do so. **drops mic**
Dragonborn3 wrote: Pathfinder is a permissive rule set that tells you what you can do, not what you can't.And yet there is an entire Forum dedicated to that. Wish I posted in that forum in order to avoid you having to point that out... oh wait. Question still stands. Or it would if it was not for this post that I just found. Which very annoyingly gives the same answer you did. Technically there’s no “provisio” that you can’t. Rules lean more in favor of being able to lower damage Quote: Considering this is a SLA and in all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell. as per this and thusly the argument that a Kineticists should be able to lower their damage still stands as spellcasters can lower their caster level when casting spells.
Val'bryn2 wrote: Nothing indicates that it can. Oh my god, nothing indicates that you can’t. Your argument works both ways bud. Please contribute something more helpful to the subject matter. @PossibleCabbage
I only ask this because spellcasters can lower their caster level when casting spells and I was hoping Kineticists could do the same. Please don’t ask why, it doesn’t help forward this question. If you must, I want to be able to do less damage to allies when I use Foe Throw on them to take them out of danger and not kill them because I’m rolling 6d6+16 on an ally that just took 70+ damage.
Help me understand how this is supposed to work. Primal Magic Event pg12 of the Inner sea Magic says
Does this mean that If one where to make a Concentration check and fail that:
WARNING!!! Do NOT bring a Kineticist to this Module. Unless you have an amazing concentration check. NO bonuses to Casting defensively does not help. Buy a Tunic of Careful Casting. And the oppropriate Headband/Belt of [insert main dmg ability score here] if you Must but you have been warned. Death of yourself and members of your party will be the only result of you playing this with a Kineticist.
This Thread was actually very helpful. Thanks for pointing the Thread out. Thanks Captain Yesterday super Helpful.
Gisher has it right on the break down. But how to put it all together?
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