|
I only ask this because spellcasters can lower their caster level when casting spells and I was hoping Kineticists could do the same. Please don’t ask why, it doesn’t help forward this question. If you must, I want to be able to do less damage to allies when I use Foe Throw on them to take them out of danger and not kill them because I’m rolling 6d6+16 on an ally that just took 70+ damage.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Foe Throw uses Telekinetic Blast
Telekinetic Blast says:
Alternatively, you can loosen the strands of aether in order to deal damage to both the object and the target as though you had thrown the object yourself (instead of dealing your normal blast damage). You substitute your Constitution modifier for your Strength modifier if throwing the object would have added your Strength modifier on the damage roll, and you don’t take the –4 penalty on the attack roll for throwing an object that wasn’t designed to be thrown. In this case, the object’s special effects apply (including effects from its materials), and if the object is a weapon, you must be proficient with it and able to wield it with one hand; otherwise, the item deals damage as a one-handed improvised weapon for a creature of your size.
So if you're using foe throw to get your allies out of danger, loosen the strands of aether so that the damage they took is that of a one-handed improvised weapon (whatever that is.)
With the -4 penalty, you can aim them at something with high AC (like yourself maybe?), so you can miss and invoke the "If your blast misses, the thrown creature can choose to occupy any space within 30 feet of the target, it doesn’t fall prone, and it takes half the normal amount of damage from your blast." clause.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nothing indicates that it can.
Oh my god, nothing indicates that you can’t. Your argument works both ways bud. Please contribute something more helpful to the subject matter.
@PossibleCabbage
To be fair you can aim at an empty square 5feet off the ground in the air, and even if you hit you still only do half damage as you said. But the other utility for lowering damage is so when you attack a low level city guard or commoner you don’t want to explode because they took massive damage.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh my god, nothing indicates that you can’t. Your argument works both ways bud. Please contribute something more helpful to the subject matter.
You need a rule that says you can lower the damage. There is not one, so you cannot. Please revisit the community guidelines for future discussions.
There is a rule that you can reduce the damage of a Telekinetic Blast though, it's the "loosen the strands of aether" clause. You do, instead of your blast's damage (which may be tremendous) the normal weapon damage of a thing. This is almost always less damage except at very low levels.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinder is a permissive rule set that tells you what you can do, not what you can't.And yet there is an entire Forum dedicated to that. Wish I posted in that forum in order to avoid you having to point that out... oh wait. Question still stands. Or it would if it was not for this post that I just found. Which very annoyingly gives the same answer you did. Technically there’s no “provisio” that you can’t. Rules lean more in favor of being able to lower damage
Considering this is a SLA and in all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
as per this and thusly the argument that a Kineticists should be able to lower their damage still stands as spellcasters can lower their caster level when casting spells.
|
|
Oh my god, nothing indicates that you can’t. Your argument works both ways bud. Please contribute something more helpful to the subject matter.You need a rule that says you can lower the damage. There is not one, so you cannot. Please revisit the community guidelines for future discussions.
I think I just did, as I just presented a list of rules that apply to spellcasters and Kineticist are Psychic Spellcasters, but still spellcasters as referenced in the CRB that Mark mentions. And also in the link provided in my previous post, the logical conclusion I could come to would say that since Kineticists and their SLA blasts meet all the prerequisites for being able to be lowered in damage by effectively lowering their caster level that they can in fact do so.
**drops mic**|
|
Even Mark points out that kinetic blast damage is not based on CL, and that by the rules it cannot be lowered. You're better off going with the 'loosened strands' option that PossibleCabbage pointed out.
I'd allow you to intentionally lower your effective level and decrease the number of dice in my game, but strictly as written, I don't think there's a direct proviso for it.
I only ask this because spellcasters can lower their caster level when casting spells and I was hoping Kineticists could do the same. Please don’t ask why, it doesn’t help forward this question. If you must, I want to be able to do less damage to allies when I use Foe Throw on them to take them out of danger and not kill them because I’m rolling 6d6+16 on an ally that just took 70+ damage.
Nope, you're out of luck.
Per the CRB, you can cast a spell with a lower than full caster level if you want, though it doesn't mention SLAs and kineticist blast damage isn't CL based. I'd allow you to intentionally lower your effective level and decrease the number of dice in my game, but strictly as written, I don't think there's a direct proviso for it.
Mark gives an answer in the post you linked. "kineticist blast damage isn't CL based" so the fact that "you can cast a spell with a lower than full caster level" is meaningless/moot. And he also points out that there is no "direct proviso for it", so you've got your answer.
|
|
You got me there, but even mark said he’d allow it. Listen we all know this isn’t for some homebrew campaign. This is for Society, as no GM would reasonably say no to this. It’s doing less damage with a class that already does less damage than a fighter of equal level and well plannned out build would be capable of. So who would complain about that. I just wanted it spelled out so people have more options than taking a feat or being a specific element to do non-lethal damage. Seems as though I can lower the damage for Foe Throw as is stands but for the purpose of not exploding farmer joe because I don’t want to kill him but I need to incapacitate him. I’m left with few options. Let someone else do it which could be bad as that let’s more time pass or I go up and punch him. A good option but not always available as one given various factors like distance, terrain, etc,.
So help Society out, make it a lil less s*!%ty for Kineticists and others as well, and let them lower their Damage. not just for saving a friend but so we don’t make more Orphans to become PCs later on.
This is for Society, as no GM would reasonably say no to this.
I think plenty of reasonable GM's would not allow it. Lot keep house rule to a BARE minimum and this is pretty corner as for as issues go: this is especially the case when there IS an option for non-lethal.
Also
If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature's Hit Dice.Seems to me this needs another look over.
Why? What's the issue?
|
|
I'm not at your table. I can't help you there. And until just now, no, I did not know this was for PFS.
Most of the rules questions in this forum can be House ruled. Society is the only one that cares or matters for in most cases. I’ve presented all the things that would suggest that the rules as written say that you can. Mark can be wrong. No one knows all the rules, I learned a lot in the defense of this question being in favor of doing so. Pathfinder is a system that does in fact tell you what you can do. You just have to find them all, and remember them all or know where to.
|
|
This is for Society, as no GM would reasonably say no to this.I think plenty of reasonable GM's would not allow it. Lot keep house rule to a BARE minimum and this is pretty corner as for as issues go: this is especially the case when there IS an option for non-lethal.
Why? What's the issue?Also
If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature's Hit Dice.Seems to me this needs another look over.
It’s Such a small thing to say yes to. It probably only come up once in a very specific situation. No one would even bother to write it down, and would likely never come up again. I find it hard to believe any GM would say no to a player doing less damage. Unless their an unbearable *. People tend to not play under those Types of GMs. The fact that it’s “pretty corner issue” means it’s very light on upkeep for GMs to keep track of. If even then, this is something the player alone keeps track of most of the time given its lack of weight on how their class functions.
Regarding the CL. Mark could of missed that. It seems pretty important to the rules regarding Kineticists and how their Blasts work. I know Marks importance given the rules and this should be taken as the rules effectively, normally I would have read his word and been “okay”. but seeing as I have found other rules saying otherwise. I find no reason for this not to be discussed further.
I’ve presented all the things that would suggest that the rules as written say that you can.
None of the things you posted suggest anything of the kind. In fact it suggests you can't, as the damage isn't based on your caster level. So the best we can do here is suggest a house rule for you, because you're out of luck on it being a rule or showing it should be one.
Regarding the CL. Mark could of missed that. It seems pretty important to the rules regarding Kineticists and how their Blasts work. I know Marks importance given the rules and this should be taken as the rules effectively, normally I would have read his word and been “okay”. but seeing as I have found other rules saying otherwise. I find no reason for this not to be discussed further.
CL LITERALLY has no impact on what we're talking about. The ability IS NOT CL BASED. Mark missed nothing.
"Physical blasts are ranged attacks that deal an amount of damage equal to 1d6+1 + the kineticist’s Constitution modifier, increasing by 1d6+1 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st. Spell resistance doesn’t apply against physical blasts.": NOTE where it says kineticist levels NOT caster level.
|
|
I’ve presented all the things that would suggest that the rules as written say that you can.None of the things you posted suggest anything of the kind. In fact it suggests you can't, as the damage isn't based on your caster level. So the best we can do here is suggest a house rule for you, because you're out of luck on it being a rule or showing it should be one.
Regarding the CL. Mark could of missed that. It seems pretty important to the rules regarding Kineticists and how their Blasts work. I know Marks importance given the rules and this should be taken as the rules effectively, normally I would have read his word and been “okay”. but seeing as I have found other rules saying otherwise. I find no reason for this not to be discussed further.CL LITERALLY has no impact on what we're talking about. The ability IS NOT CL BASED. Mark missed nothing.
"Physical blasts are ranged attacks that deal an amount of damage equal to 1d6+1 + the kineticist’s Constitution modifier, increasing by 1d6+1 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st. Spell resistance doesn’t apply against physical blasts.": NOTE where it says kineticist levels NOT caster level.
Kineticists Blasts are SLAs, we all know this it’s in the rules, as per the rules referenced here Link
We can gleam two things, 1st SLA’s somehow both work as spells and are not spells. Confusing yes. 2nd SLA’s when they don’t list a CL they are assumed to have a CL equal to their casters HD.Now with those two things in mind this rule Scroll down to Caster Level
So now with all that presented to you all, you can understand my confusion regarding Kineticist being able to Not lower their damage. As the rules say that you can.
EDIT: fixed the links(hopefully)
GM Rednal: As TriOmegaZero points out, Cl is used for SR.
As the rules say that you can.
You skipped a step. You can't prove that a change of CL has ANY effect on a kinetic blast past SR. THE BLAST DAMAGE IS BASED ON CHARACTER LEVEL and not CL.
So all the 'proof' is moot to the blast. Magic section meaningless: nothing on abilities based on character level. SLA section is meaningless: nothing on abilities based on character level.
So please, unless you can come up with something new, don't keep posting and reposting the exact same sections of the rules: If we're unconvinced the first 3 times, more isn't going to change our minds.
|
|
GM Rednal: As TriOmegaZero points out, Cl is used for SR.
As the rules say that you can.You skipped a step. You can't prove that a change of CL has ANY effect on a kinetic blast past SR. THE BLAST DAMAGE IS BASED ON CHARACTER LEVEL and not CL.
So all the 'proof' is moot to the blast. Magic section meaningless: nothing on abilities based on character level. SLA section is meaningless: nothing on abilities based on character level.
So please, unless you can come up with something new, don't keep posting and reposting the exact same sections of the rules: If we're unconvinced the first 3 times, more isn't going to change our minds.
Spells like Searing Light are 1d8 per two Caster Levels. So lowering your max caster level of 8 to 2 should make you only roll 1d8. So when you read the rules regarding Castsr Level, then the rules Regarding SLA’s working as spells.
Here,Following this line of logic the rules say that you can lower your caster level which effects various variables regarding the spell effected by it such as Damage and range. When looking at Kineticists Blasts with this rule in mind and you see a lack of CL mentioned you go back to the rules on SLA’s saying that it’s CL is equal to HD. A Kineticists Charcter Level equals Caster Level in other instances that call for Caster Level. Such as when referencing over coming SR. So why is it that suddenly with all the rules leading up to this point that there is this disconnect between CL and a Kineticists Blasts Damage and their ability to lower their caster level.
When there is a spells example of this such as with Searing light where every two levels there is a damage increase and thusly lowering it every two levels you get lower damage that when a SLA works like a Spell in such a way that lowering your Effective CL by two or more, lowers your damage with that SLA. As is the case needed to lower your damage with kinetic Blasts seeing as they are similar in respects to most spells that are based on every two levels their damage increases and SLA’s work like spells.
That’s my connection between the two, the rules as written.
|
|
GM Rednal: As TriOmegaZero points out, Cl is used for SR.
As the rules say that you can.You skipped a step. You can't prove that a change of CL has ANY effect on a kinetic blast past SR. THE BLAST DAMAGE IS BASED ON CHARACTER LEVEL and not CL.
So all the 'proof' is moot to the blast. Magic section meaningless: nothing on abilities based on character level. SLA section is meaningless: nothing on abilities based on character level.
So please, unless you can come up with something new, don't keep posting and reposting the exact same sections of the rules: If we're unconvinced the first 3 times, more isn't going to change our minds.
Sorry I offended the word of your apparent God. I’m just trying to get things clarified. I only have to repeat myself because you all are holding to the word of Mark in a random post in a random forum that will be lost in time, only accessible through a very specific Google search. So as far as this topic is concerned, it seems as though the Rules say that in this instance, that you can lower Kineticists Blasts Damage. Sorry I brought it up, didn’t realize I was stirring up a hornets nest of Seifter Zealots defending his word. Despite the fact that when you follow the rules you find that he is seemingly wrong.
Spells like Searing Light are 1d8 per two Caster Levels. So lowering your max caster level of 8 to 2 should make you only roll 1d8. So when you read the rules regarding Castsr Level, then the rules Regarding SLA’s working as spells.
Here,
Following this line of logic the rules say that you can lower your caster level which effects various variables regarding the spell effected by it such as Damage and range. When looking at Kineticists Blasts with this rule in mind and you see a lack of CL mentioned you go back to the rules on SLA’s saying that it’s CL is equal to HD. A Kineticists Charcter Level equals Caster Level in other instances that call for Caster Level. Such as when referencing over coming SR. So why is it that suddenly with all the rules leading up to this point that there is this disconnect between CL and a Kineticists Blasts Damage and their ability to lower their caster level.
When there is a spells example of this such as with Searing light where every two levels there is a damage increase and thusly lowering it every two levels you get lower damage that when a SLA works like a Spell in such a way that lowering your Effective CL by two or more, lowers your damage with that SLA. As is the case needed to lower your damage with kinetic Blasts seeing as they are similar in respects to most spells that...
Rules as written, a Kineticist is not a spell caster and does not have a Caster Level the same way a Wizard, Sorcerer, etc does. Their abilities are based on class level, which can function as a caster level in certain places where it is needed. That doesn't mean they are actually the same thing. A Kineticist blast does not benefit from abilities that increase their caster level, ergo their blast is not based on caster level and is not subject to those same rules.
On the same subject, the rules you linked do not say anywhere that someone using an SLA can lower their caster level like someone casting a spell can. The spells section only ever mentions lowering the caster level when casting a spell, not using a spell like ability. Additionally, the SLA rules state that SLAs get a designated caster level, then provide a way of finding one if it isn't mentioned. So it seems to me that, rules as written, you can not adjust the caster level of an SLA the same way you can a spell.
|
|
Spells like Searing Light are 1d8 per two Caster Levels. So lowering your max caster level of 8 to 2 should make you only roll 1d8. So when you read the rules regarding Castsr Level, then the rules Regarding SLA’s working as spells.
Here,
Following this line of logic the rules say that you can lower your caster level which effects various variables regarding the spell effected by it such as Damage and range. When looking at Kineticists Blasts with this rule in mind and you see a lack of CL mentioned you go back to the rules on SLA’s saying that it’s CL is equal to HD. A Kineticists Charcter Level equals Caster Level in other instances that call for Caster Level. Such as when referencing over coming SR. So why is it that suddenly with all the rules leading up to this point that there is this disconnect between CL and a Kineticists Blasts Damage and their ability to lower their caster level.
When there is a spells example of this such as with Searing light where every two levels there is a damage increase and thusly lowering it every two levels you get lower damage that when a SLA works like a Spell in such a way that lowering your Effective CL by two or more, lowers your damage with that SLA. As is the case needed to lower your damage with kinetic Blasts seeing as they are similar in respects to most spells that...Rules as written, a Kineticist is not a spell caster and does not have a Caster Level the same way a Wizard, Sorcerer, etc does. Their abilities are based on class level, which can function as a caster level in certain places where it is needed. That doesn't mean they are actually the same thing. A Kineticist blast does not benefit from abilities that increase their caster level, ergo their blast is not based on caster level and is not subject to those same rules.
On the same subject, the rules you linked do not say anywhere that someone using an SLA can lower their caster level like someone casting a spell can. The spells section only ever mentions lowering the...
except I did when I explained that SLA's work as spells and thus can have their Caster Level lowered to deal less damage.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
except I did when I explained that SLA's work as spells and thus can have their Caster Level lowered to deal less damage.
SLA's are not spells, they function like spells. Lowering caster level is something that is done while casting a spell, it never mentions Spell Like Abilities in that section at all. It is a somewhat grey area and I could see it being ruled either way, but as I'm seeing it the rules don't appear to allow you to modify the Caster Level of an SLA the way you can a spell.
None of that really matters though because Kineticist damage is not based on Caster Level, it's based on Kineticist Level. So a 9th level Kineticist can lower their caster level as much as they want, the ability still does damage as a 9th level Kineticist, because that is their level.
|
|
How is it when something Functions like something else but isn't subject to the same rules that effect the original? Why is it when you can Lower your Caster level for a spell doesn't apply to SLA's when they functions like Spells and spells function based on CL and CL can be lowered to effect their variable damage and range like a spell because they seem to me to function just like a Spell which they do because its stated that they do.
None of that really matters though because Kineticist damage is not based on Caster Level, it's based on Kineticist Level. So a 9th level Kineticist can lower their caster level as much as they want, the ability still does damage as a 9th level Kineticist, because that is their level.
and graystone questioned why i had to repeat myself. When I have gone to such great lengths to explain why I think this way.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How is it when something Functions like something else but isn't subject to the same rules that effect the original? Why is it when you can Lower your Caster level for a spell doesn't apply to SLA's when they functions like Spells and spells function based on CL and CL can be lowered to effect their variable damage and range like a spell because they seem to me to function just like a Spell which they do because its stated that they do.
None of that really matters though because Kineticist damage is not based on Caster Level, it's based on Kineticist Level. So a 9th level Kineticist can lower their caster level as much as they want, the ability still does damage as a 9th level Kineticist, because that is their level.and graystone questioned why i had to repeat myself. When I have gone to such great lengths to explain why I think this way.
Squares are Rectangles but Rectangles are not Squares. The description of Spell Like Abilities specifically states that SLA are similar to, but not the same as, spells. SLA's can't be counterspelled like Spells can. They don't use any components. They can't have metamagic applied to them the way spells can. Lastly, it is stated that their caster level is fixed and not always based on the hit die or casting ability of the creature in question. They do not always function like spells and adjustment of caster level is a grey area. There is no hard rule saying that this can or can not happen, so we need to interpret the rules that we do have to try an figure out what fits.
I feel like this is relevant because you keep trying say that because certain things are calculated the same way, they are functionally the same thing. This is not true.
In cases where Caster Level is relevant to damage, it will specifically state that a Caster Level is used. 1d6 per Caster Level. No where in the Kineticist description for it's damage does it say Caster Level. Damage does not function of Caster Level, it does not effect damage what so ever. Even if an SLAs caster level can be lowered, it would change the blasts damage. It could effect getting past SR or similar situations, but it would not effect damage because the damage is not based on Caster Level.
|
|
And yet they're both Shapes.
KB are SLA's--->SLA's Function Like Spells---> Spells CL can be Lowered--->SLA without CL = HD--->KB has a CL--->CL can be Lowered because its effectively a Spell.
@Val'bryn2 sorry I'd delete it but i cant anymore. I apologize, I just feel attacked because everyone else isnt seeing the lines I've draw out for them and it looked to me like it was because of what Mark said. Also Can rogues only use some of their sneak attack? Probably not, but they can certainly chose not to do Sneak attack when they can. These are two different cases, solely based off the fact that Sneak attack isnt a SLA.
And regarding Metamagic feats. True. But Spell Focus effects SLA's.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And yet they're both Shapes.
KB are SLA's--->SLA's Function Like Spells---> Spells CL can be Lowered--->SLA without CL = HD--->KB has a CL--->CL can be Lowered because its effectively a Spell.
@Val'bryn2 sorry I'd delete it but i cant anymore. I apologize, I just feel attacked because everyone else isnt seeing the lines I've draw out for them and it looked to me like it was because of what Mark said. Also Can rogues only use some of their sneak attack? Probably not, but they can certainly chose not to do Sneak attack when they can. These are two different cases, solely based off the fact that Sneak attack isnt a SLA.
And regarding Metamagic feats. True. But Spell Focus effects SLA's.
I understand what you are saying. You are ignoring the fact that the damage isn't based on Caster Level. When damage is based on Caster Level it is specifically stated. Kinetic Blasts damage is based on Kineticist level.
Lets just, for the sake of argument, say that everything you typed up there is true. I'm a 9th level Kineticist and I use a blast. I decide to lower the caster level from the theoretical CL9 to CL5, for some reason. According to the rules, I still do 5d6 damage because regardless of what I change my caster level to, my Kineticist level remains unchanged.
Let me ask you this. If my hypothetical 9th level Kineticist multiclasses into a Prestige class that lets me stack my Caster level in a previous class with the new class levels, would my blast damage go up? No, it would not because this new class is not a Kineticist and does not give me a more powerful blast.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I apologize, I just feel attacked because everyone else isnt seeing the lines I've draw out for them and it looked to me like it was because of what Mark said.
No, Mark just said what I or many of the others have said in this thread and would have even if Mark have never said anything.
"Kinetic Blasts damage is based on Kineticist level": not Caster level
"Kinetic Blasts damage is based on Kineticist level": not Caster level
"Kinetic Blasts damage is based on Kineticist level": not Caster level
"Kinetic Blasts damage is based on Kineticist level": not Caster level
"Kinetic Blasts damage is based on Kineticist level": not Caster level
So anything you could dredge up about Caster level is totally and completely irrelevant/moot. it's all about how the class feature is worded. I don't know of a way to make it any clearer than it already is.
I feel this thread is going too much by the letter of the rules and not the spirit of them. It's like the improved familiar ruling, where only arcane spellcasters were specified for the feat, because at that time they were the only ones able to gain familiars.
I'd say this needs a FAQ in the same way. It's clear the intention would have been for you to be able to lower your class level as well as your spell level. The rules just didn't think to account for that.
|
|
I apologize, I just feel attacked because everyone else isnt seeing the lines I've draw out for them and it looked to me like it was because of what Mark said.No, Mark just said what I or many of the others have said in this thread and would have even if Mark have never said anything.
"Kinetic Blasts damage is based on Kineticist level": not Caster level
"Kinetic Blasts damage is based on Kineticist level": not Caster level
"Kinetic Blasts damage is based on Kineticist level": not Caster level
"Kinetic Blasts damage is based on Kineticist level": not Caster level
"Kinetic Blasts damage is based on Kineticist level": not Caster levelSo anything you could dredge up about Caster level is totally and completely irrelevant/moot. it's all about how the class feature is worded. I don't know of a way to make it any clearer than it already is.
Thats if you run under the assumption that the two are mutually exclusive. Which there is more evidence in the rules to suggest that they are not. As is the case with the Feat Interweave Composite Blast Where in fact CL has a Direct effect on how much Damage the resulting Blast does.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That feat does not say that CL has a direct effect on damage. It says the blasts caster level is equal to the average of the two participants, and that the damage is equal to a kineticist of that level. That is actually further proof that CL does not determine blast damage, otherwise they would have said 'deals damage based on that average caster level'.
|
|
"The composite blast’s caster level is equal to the average of the caster levels of both participants and deals damage as the appropriate composite blast created by a kineticist of that level"
Why would the Bold say that in the same sentence of Kineticists level and the effect it has on damage. it says "Equal" to a Kineticists of that Level. It mentions CL First then Kineticists level as if its a directly correlating effect on the power of the Composite Blast. Even before it mentions the average of the two and Kineticists Level.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
You got me there, but even mark said he’d allow it. Listen we all know this isn’t for some homebrew campaign. This is for Society, as no GM would reasonably say no to this.
I for sure would say no to this as it's against the rules and even Mark says it's against the rules. Like you can't just make up rules you want for PFS.