Pirate Queen

Laarafel's page

Organized Play Member. 32 posts (237 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 28 Organized Play characters. 1 alias.


RSS

Horizon Hunters

Does anyone know if they intend to make it screen reader friendly? Tried looking on the Demiplane website to find contact info but couldn't find it - never a good sign.

Horizon Hunters

Nefreet wrote:
Eric Nielsen wrote:
Laarafel wrote:
I've had problems before with GMs not accepting anything that wasn't on a chronicle sheet (including downtime). I just tried using RPG chronicles to dummy up a character sheet and it doesn't work without GM#, Event#, etc. all of which I don't have.
Do you have a local/online community you engage with the most? GMs not accepting the alternate allowed recording keeping, for 2e at least, is not acceptable and something that should be elevated up the VA/VL/VC chain as appropriate.

NielsenE beat me to it.

Since Downtime is handled by players, it'd be impossible for a GM to be upset that it wasn't handled by another GM.

One would wish that was true but I've had this happen more than once and the only conclusion I can come to, based on their commentary and mine was the only record keeping that they questioned, is that they didn't believe I could do math. Regardless and because it's a game, I really don't want to have to deal with ignorant ableist individuals who think disabled people (blind people specifically) can't do anything.

Because these guidelines for this change specifically state, "Mark the gold earned on your most recent Chronicle Sheet with a note about its source," that is what I'm going to have to deal with and, to be honest, I can't rely on VOs to do their job with regard to this type of behavior because, when I have reported this type of thing, I've been told to just move onto another table (i.e. "just don't play with them") and don't worry about it..... kind of what I'm getting here... rather than correcting the issue.

Horizon Hunters

I've had problems before with GMs not accepting anything that wasn't on a chronicle sheet (including downtime). I just tried using RPG chronicles to dummy up a character sheet and it doesn't work without GM#, Event#, etc. all of which I don't have.

Horizon Hunters

I need some clarification on how Paizo is planning on dealing with, for example, blind players who, because of how chronicles have been created by Paizo, can't edit their chronicle sheets (at all). In fact, if one is blind and uses a screen reader, you can't even fill out a blank one -- which means you can never GM. But getting back to the current problem, is Paizo going to finally create fillable sheets so that blind players can actually do what you're suggesting in this announcement (i.e. "Mark the gold earned on your most recent Chronicle Sheet with a note about its source.") OR are you going to create some other type of announcement to make this accessible (ex. Blind players can just put a typed sheet of paper with the gold into their collection of chronicles to denote the change). I ask because, currently, it is being stated that GMs don't have to do this for players and even one nice individual said that we should get a tattoo of the added downtime....

Horizon Hunters

BoseMensch wrote:
Laarafel wrote:
Question: Since Warhorn and many other of these online venues are not entirely ADA compliant, how is Paizo going to make this Con accessible given that they are starting by making calls to GMs strictly through a non-ADA compliant venue?
Tonya Woldridge wrote:
Please send a message to paizocononline@paizo.com with how we can assist bridging the gap!... We are happy to assist, just need some guidance how!
TwilightKnight wrote:
In any case, I will reiterate, we are more than happy to work with any member of the community facing any challenges trying to participate in PaizoCon or any other event organized by our community members. I am certain that we can work with anyone interested to find a reasonable accommodation so that they can enjoy organized play events...
Laarafel wrote:
I didn't come here for help. I came here to inform you what is going to happen to Paizo and, potentially, this Con. That's all. You can't help.

(emphasis added)

Further discussion is a waste of time. Lets move on, and celebrate the fact that Paizo is stepping up and providing us with Paizocon for free and in a manner that allows people to participate who otherwise couldn't participate.

As stated before (that you clearly didn't read), I already sent emails to both customer service AND the paizocononline email address and the only response I received was from the customer service email stating that someone would get back to me from Paizo about the issue. Paizocononline hasn't responded at all (not even an automated response) -- which one would expect would be typical for such a big event.

Two: Tonya and the others who claim to be organizing this event say that they are willing to include, however, they also say that things will be done only through Warhorn AND in a first come, first seated manner. Now, if one cannot utilize Warhorn and one cannot (due to the current situation AND how Warhorn is set up) contact the event people or the GMs to get one's name added to the table or to GM, for example, before the table fills up because those individuals are indisposed, that lack of accessibility negatively impacts Disabled players and, unlike someone else's analogy of a broken door is neither temporary and unforeseeable prior to the event's planning. Doors break and, no, one does not close down an entire facility because of it; instead, one hires a repair crew to fix the door. However, if one is planning an event in a facility where one knows that there is no wheelchair accessibility, one is going to be held accountable for that lack of access whether that event was planned last minute or not. As the recent pandemic demonstrated to our state's various county board of elections, not being prepared and not knowing protocols, rules and legislation does not make one exempt from following those rules whether one is an employee of the county board of elections or merely a volunteer answering the phone.

And, for those who are not familiar, DOJ/OCR cases don't go to court; it is an investigative process. One files a claim, the DOJ does one of two things: either helps mediate a resolution or investigates the allegation and makes a determination; there is no court case, no lawsuit. If the DOJ investigates, they investigate however much or little they decide to do (they may limit themselves to strictly what is involved with your allegations or, if they find cause, go beyond the scope of your allegations, and investigate beyond the scope of your charges). The DOJ makes a decision not a courtroom/trial whether or not there is a violation of the law and, if so, what the entity must do to resolve the issue. And for anyone who wishes to know more, one really can look this stuff up on the DOJ website; it's all explained fairly well on their page.

Horizon Hunters

Gnollvalue wrote:

For those of you who are having issues with pop-ups on Warhorn, tab 6 times, hit enter, and you're signed up.

I don't think anyone would mind if you leave the drop downs blank as long as your character is in level.

Just an FYI, this is what happens when one follows your advice:

https://youtu.be/DqG2ymixmvY

Horizon Hunters

Hmm wrote:
Laarafel wrote:
Google Sheets vs Warhorn

They're not doing this in an attempt to exclude you. Please, work with us. We all just want to play, not fight!

Hmm

EDIT: Aaaaaand Michael Hallet ninja'd me with a more concise explanation!

While different groups/entities may be putting on separate events, both are entities which, in the end and to a degree, an extension of Paizo. And, yes, putting on a different event with a shorter schedule would be more problematic; however and at the same time, had Paizo been thinking this through, this would have been organized further out, contingencies put in place, etc. The reality is that going through Warhorn provides for no allowance for reasonable accommodations and no ADA compliance because it is first come first seated (based on the stated rules here on this forum -- which by default leaves any and all PwDs on the sidelines that need reasonable accommodations to play the game and either can't sign up until they get an accommodation to sign up (like me) OR need to get an accommodation approved in order to insure that they can play the game they sign up for (ex. someone who is deaf who needs to use chat instead of voice). These types of accommodations take time to arrange and Paizo (and those involved in arranging this Con left no room to create space/time to arrange for accommodations) AND because sign up for both GM positions and players is through Warhorn, if one cannot sign up via this device some subsets can't utilize this venue and thereby are automatically excluded from this Con. Paizo didn't need to hang a "No Disabled People allowed" sign outside; it's implied and inferred.

Horizon Hunters

Rysky wrote:
Thank you for finally pointing out the issue you are having.

Rysky, I didn't come here for help. I came here to inform you what is going to happen to Paizo and, potentially, this Con. That's all. You can't help.

Horizon Hunters

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Shifty wrote:
Laarafel wrote:
Hell, that's why I was able to predict that this would happen months before it did happen and told people connected to Paizo to not use Warhorn in relationship to events like a Con or this would invariable occur.
Just out of interest, what is wrong with Warhorn?

Specifically, it isn't screen reader friendly. Well, to be clear, it is screen reader friendly until you try to join a game or become a GM and then it isn't screen reader friendly because the developer created a pop-up (or what I believe is a pop-up) that will not allow one to interact with it utilizing keystrokes; you have to use a mouse. According to the creator of Warhorn, it works with Voice Over (which is Apple's screen reader); however, like a lot of Blind people, I use a PC and have JAWS (the screen reader for people using PCs) and, while it registers that there is a pop-up window of some kind, it won't read it... which means he didn't code it properly (this means he didn't follow basic ADA protocols set up by federal guidelines that are generic so that all screen readers will work regardless of which one you're using). This is the link to the video I finally ended up making for the guy from Warhorn to show him the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmOJJKMYWVg

Horizon Hunters

TwilightKnight wrote:

Our choice of Warhorn is based on it being (by far) the most commonly used online organizing tool by our community and we have numerous files and apps that integrate with it to provide a higher level of coordination efficiency. We are not a partner with them, we are merely a customer using their service so we cannot speak to their business practices or their compliance with any laws. Given the scope of their customers, I have to think that if they were intentionally discriminating or in violation of any federal statutes, they would already be shut down or in litigation, or both.

In any case, I will reiterate, we are more than happy to work with any member of the community facing any challenges trying to participate in PaizoCon or any other event organized by our community members. I am certain that we can work with anyone interested to find a reasonable accommodation so that they can enjoy organized play events along with the rest of the...

If you are what you claim to be and have actually read the law then you know this is not necessarily the case, there are loopholes, small businesses are exempt. Warhorn falls under the auspices of a small business because it, purportedly, has less than the requisite number of employees required under the ADA. However, a Con under Paizo's banner -- a company affiliated, corporate Con (i.e. it is their flagship event) falls under the auspices of the corporation for which it is housed even though those organizing it are volunteers, just as volunteers at a hospital are considered as working for the hospital while "working" for that hospital while in the process of volunteering their time. If during that time, they violate the law, they are doing so as representatives of the company for which they are volunteering (yes, I've dealt with this kind of thing before). While Warhorn may not fall under the purview of the law due to the lack of employees, this does not make Paizo any less responsible for upholding ADA and CVAA on their end... and I know this because I've also taken hospitals, public transportation and other companies to task for this before.... I really do know what I'm talking about.

Horizon Hunters

Dragnmoon wrote:

Laarafel I understand your frustrated but PaizoCon online was something I am sure was made in a short time span which means they had to work with what is available on short notice and for Game sign ups that is Warhorn.

If they had time they would have developed there own sign up system for the convention like they have in the past, but they don't have that time with the resources they have which is limited because everyone is working from home.

These are extraordinary situations which means they had to build this on a very short time frame.

Tonya already told you to contact her to find out from you how she can help. I would suggest you use that opportunity to work with her so you both can come up with ideas that could be done with the limited systems available and once something was worked out she could pass that information along to the general public for those who are in the same situation you are in.

Actually, the past two online Cons (which Paizo has done) were dealt with via Google sheets not Warhorn; so, in short, you are mistaken. There is an alternative and it's an alternative that they've used and it's accessible. The reality is that Paizo could have done a variety of things: 1. postponed the event until such time as they were ready to put it on properly; 2. utilized the online formats that they already have used in the past; 3. began looking at alternative online vendors that were ADA compliant and gotten a contract for fulfillment of procurement between the time that this pandemic started AND now (its not like pandemics end overnight; this wasn't going away in a month or two and, while the President might have been touting that, no one in the medical and scientific fields was -- which means Paizo should have/could have been preparing from day one of lockdown which wasn't weeks ago).... And, since I have a background in putting together events -- yes, I've actually done event planning for large events before, I know how much time and effort is involved in the initial planning; however, we aren't talking about starting from scratch; we're talking about moving from one venue to another; it's a large task, to be sure, but not something that requires eons of time and prep if one has done one's homework and pre-planning for contingencies which, if you're doing an event like this... you should be thinking contingencies, have a "how to" list in place and know the when, where and how to get from point A to point B. If I'm getting "We don't know how" from Tonya about the ADA that means they had know plan because they didn't even know the law, pure and simple.... and we're talking about a law that's over 20 years old. Since they just put on 2 online events that used Google sheets, the line that they have to use Warhorn falls a little flat.

And, as I stated already to Zero, I've already contacted Paizo -- BEFORE posting here on this forum. This was a public information post. So, let me be plain (since people seem to not understand what public information post means), I posted here to let people know that, if the plug gets pulled on this event suddenly or things get suddenly rearranged or postponed, you'll know why because I didn't feel it would be fair to pull the rug out on the general public and leave them going, "What the hell?" all because Paizo was acting inappropriately.

Or, are all of you saying you would prefer to have been left in the dark and, suddenly, Tonya got on here and said, "Sorry guys, the Cons been cancelled until further notice." No explanation because DOJ will tie their hands about saying anything (because any payback against me comes back to bite them).... Is that what I'm hearing is preferred? Because I can file the paperwork right now if that is the general consensus of the consumers of the product.

Horizon Hunters

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Looking at the discussion so far, that appears to be unproductive and a waste of time. I wish you luck in achieving your goals.

Ah, I see. So, you couldn't explain your commentary -- why you stated, "You are mistaken." and/or what you meant by it specifically. So, instead, you decided to proclaim that this whole conversation was supposedly where I was attempting to get something done? lol Someone needs to learn to read; I made it plain that I was merely announcing what was going on in public here that's all; whatever happens (or doesn't) is Paizo's decision and it will be Paizo's decision whether the Feds get involved in this; Paizo was sent an email BEFORE I put a post on this forum.

Horizon Hunters

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Laarafel wrote:
I don't recall ever talking to you but whatever. I didn't ask for this fight. You are suggesting that I, not Paizo, did something illegal and untoward.
You are mistaken.

I'm confused. Are you calling me a liar because I don't remember ever talking to you or because you think that I did something illegal? Please explain instead of being obtuse.

Horizon Hunters

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Laarafel wrote:
It's not stressful, Hmm, it's irritating; it's aggravating and annoyingly predictable. Hell, that's why I was able to predict that this would happen months before it did happen and told people connected to Paizo to not use Warhorn in relationship to events like a Con or this would invariable occur. It was just a matter of time before someone took the time to stand up and say no more; I won't be a 2nd class citizen.
As I said the last time we talked, go looking for a fight and you are likely to find one.

I don't recall ever talking to you but whatever. I didn't ask for this fight. You are suggesting that I, not Paizo, did something illegal and untoward. Let me be perfectly clear, I've done nothing wrong; Paizo is currently in violation of federal civil rights statutes, two of them to be specific: The Americans with Disabilities Act and the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act, by partnering with entities that are not compliant with these Acts.

So, what you are claiming is that, because I expect a company to abide by federal civil rights laws I'm picking a fight and, therefore, deserve to be treated poorly.... Interesting way reframing discrimination into... more discrimination.

Horizon Hunters

Hmm wrote:
Tonya Woldridge wrote:
There won't be a lottery this year. Logistics weren't in our favor. All tables will be first registered, first sat.

Okay, that works fine too!

Laarafel wrote:
ADA & Warhorn

Hey Gnome, it's me, Hmm. I know it's stressful not to be able to sign up for things directly because the program is not ADA-compliant. But maybe we can still help. Can I or someone else help you get signed up for the things you want?

It's not stressful, Hmm, it's irritating; it's aggravating and annoyingly predictable. Hell, that's why I was able to predict that this would happen months before it did happen and told people connected to Paizo to not use Warhorn in relationship to events like a Con or this would invariable occur. It was just a matter of time before someone took the time to stand up and say no more; I won't be a 2nd class citizen.

And, no, we have a stay at home order in effect and Tonya made it very clear in her post to you that it is first come first sat, which means that if you can't use Warhorn to get yourself seated at a table or anything else at this Con then too bad for you.

Horizon Hunters

TwilightKnight wrote:
Laarafel wrote:
ADA

I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish? What compliance is Warhorn violating? Its the standard tool being used for nearly all organized play scheduling around the world (not all, but most). I assume that if they were violating the law, it would have been shut down long before now. PaizoCon Online is not unique in its methodology

Dear, I suggest if you are the event coordinator that you speak to an attorney.

Horizon Hunters

TOZ wrote:
Laarafel wrote:
Tonya Woldridge wrote:
Laarafel wrote:
Question: Since Warhorn and many other of these online venues are not entirely ADA compliant, how is Paizo going to make this Con accessible given that they are starting by making calls to GMs strictly through a non-ADA compliant venue?

Please send a message to paizocononline@paizo.com with how we can assist bridging the gap! We can take our best guess, but in the end it would only be guesswork. We are happy to assist, just need some guidance how!

The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (aka the ADA) is over 20 years old. It's a federal civil rights law and you're suggesting that Paizo doesn't know how to "bridge the gap".... or simply avoid companies that are not ADA compliant? The Dept. of Justice, Office of Civil Rights is capable of helping Paizo with this problem. Would you like me to call them, Tonya?
I must ask, is this the best method of achieving your goals you could be persuing?

To answer your question: No, the best method would have been to immediately contact the Department of Justice, Office of Civil Rights upon seeing the post about the Con rather than doing anything here. And they would have, in all likelihood (because I've seen it done before) shut the Con down immediately until this was resolved... which may not have been resolved until after they were done investigating which sometimes takes years.

So, I thought of the other players before I thought of Disabled people when it came to the Con and decided I'd let Paizo have the opportunity to be publicly humiliated and maybe, maybe come to the table and talk rather than dragged through that ringer.

Horizon Hunters

Tonya Woldridge wrote:
Laarafel wrote:
Question: Since Warhorn and many other of these online venues are not entirely ADA compliant, how is Paizo going to make this Con accessible given that they are starting by making calls to GMs strictly through a non-ADA compliant venue?

Please send a message to paizocononline@paizo.com with how we can assist bridging the gap! We can take our best guess, but in the end it would only be guesswork. We are happy to assist, just need some guidance how!

The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (aka the ADA) is over 20 years old. It's a federal civil rights law and you're suggesting that Paizo doesn't know how to "bridge the gap".... or simply avoid companies that are not ADA compliant? The Dept. of Justice, Office of Civil Rights is capable of helping Paizo with this problem. Would you like me to call them, Tonya?

Horizon Hunters

Question: Since Warhorn and many other of these online venues are not entirely ADA compliant, how is Paizo going to make this Con accessible given that they are starting by making calls to GMs strictly through a non-ADA compliant venue?

Horizon Hunters

Captain Morgan wrote:
Laarafel wrote:
This is a game where "blindness" and "deafness" are used as spells/weapons to use against people; however, they are also disabilities and, I think, we need to make a distinction between and among several things: 1. a physical impairment (i.e. blindness, deafness, a mobility impairment, etc.); 2. someone who has a medical condition defined as a disability; 3. someone who identifies as Disabled; 4. a spell or weaponized attack of some kind (aka a condition) that also goes by the same name as "blind," "deaf," "immobilized," etc.

BlindNESS, the spell, is not synonymous with blindED, the condition. CRB page 618 says "Conditions change your state of being in some way." Blindness the spell might inflict the blinded condition, but the blinded condition is what happens when a creature that is used to operating with vision suddenly loses it. CRB page 487 is reinforcing is that the blinded condition listed on pages 618 is meant for someone suddenly loses it, not for a character that hasn't had vision in the longterm.

Further reinforcing this is the fact that the mechanical adjustments listed for a blind character on 487 are not the same as the adjustments for the blinded condition on page 618. A blinded character treats all normal terrain as difficult terrain. A blind character doesn't, presumably because they have adapted the skills necessary to move about without tripping on things. Also, Page 487 says a blind character can't be blinded or dazzled. So the rulebook isn't saying the two are one and the same as you seem to be alluding to.

I'm having difficulty engaging with the rest of your post because it seems to be hinging on saying something that the book doesn't actually say, as far as I can tell. I'm worried I might be missing some other point.

I would agree with you except that: 1. Paizo has not made a distinction between the mechanics of the spell "blindness" and the impairment/condition "blinded"; they've simply said x causes y which has led, it would appear, to this confusion for Ssalaren, for example, to believe that both conditions must always and already be short term mechanical devises within the game that are short-term and easily removed.... which lead him/her to the presumption that somehow(?) one create a character that is permanently blind or deaf but not permanently blind or deaf (because that goes against p. 487 quite clearly) by, as Ssalaren interpreted it:

"It's saying that the mechanical conditions known as blinded and deafened are not appropriate representations of someone with a long-term disability. Those mechanics are designed to convey the specific effects of removing a sense from someone who is acclimated to living with it. For a character who is permanently without sight or hearing, you should use other adjustments."

When asked how exactly that would look/work, Ssalaren couldn't come up with an idea; now, when someone comes up with that inventive an interpretation they usually have an example in mind.... Please, don't confuse my understanding of the rulebook with trying to get Ssalaren to explain his interpretation.

Don't get me wrong, Paizo did some things wrong when it created these linguistic gymnastics because they made little to no distinction between the mechanic and the condition, and none between impairment and the mechanic and then simply put an x = y to create a spell. So, "blind" is an impairment that someone can have; a mechanical condition (blinded is simply the past tense "blind" is present tense of that verb); "Blindness" can refer to both the spell or the impairment that someone possesses (ex. "color blindness"... do I need to make a sentence that a character might use in the game to describe someone who is blind?). Don't get me wrong, I understand the problems with what they were trying to do given the social constructs surrounding disability; however and at the same time, to suggest that these terms don't create a linguistic confusion all their own is problematic, at best....

At the same time, there are things that Ssalaren jumped to conclusions about that I asked for a reasonable explanation of that interpretation.... If you're going to throw out an interpretation that says, "Do x," then give an example of how X might be done. And Ssalaren's response was, "I think it does make sense. This is a game. In this game "blinded" and "deafened" are specific mechanical constructs, and they are written with the assumption that the condition is both short-term and easily removed. If you are playing a character who is permanently differently-abled, then you shouldn't use those conditions because they aren't tailored to that experience." Which is basically saying if you're playing a character with a long-term disability, they've adapted to their long-term disability so *poof* they no longer have their disability.... Seriously??? I know this world is magical but I'm sorry my CRB must have the page missing with the "Cure Pill" on it.... I'm looking for an explanation of the interpretation and what I got was, *throws hands up* "I don't know how to explain myself or my logic."

Horizon Hunters

Captain Morgan wrote:

Also, googling "Pathfinder Society Cleveland" led me to this page, and according to that there are 3 different gaming stores in Cleveland running PFS next week. Underhill Games, Great Lakes Game Emporium, and Critical Hit Games. I'm... somewhat skeptical that is actually happening given the global pandemic, but that might also be why the venture captains aren't currently responding to you.

Regardless of whether or not you're playing with local tables or PbP, talking to your specific GM is gonna be your best move here.

Actually, I sent those messages months ago... but neither here nor there. As for that website, Warhorn is not ADA compliant and, therefore, not screen reader friendly, which means I can't use it. So, any games posted there aren't accessible (i.e. games I can be aware of). So, if local area PFS captains don't respond to requests, I don't know about events because they aren't responding to emails and post on a non-ADA compliant venue....

Horizon Hunters

Ssalarn wrote:

I think it does make sense. This is a game. In this game "blinded" and "deafened" are specific mechanical constructs, and they are written with the assumption that the condition is both short-term and easily removed. If you are playing a character who is permanently differently-abled, then you shouldn't use those conditions because they aren't tailored to that experience. That's all that sentence says "Conditions such as blinded and defended aren't a good fit for a character who has been living with a disability long term." If you are e.g. someone who is permanently without sight, while the real-world classification for that circumstance might be "blind", it's not what the blinded condition in the game was designed to convey. Those bonuses and penalties are not meant to be reflective of someone who has acclimated to functioning without the use of a particular sense, they are tailored to someone who is used to operating with that sense and has suddenly lost it.

There is not a "one-size-fits-all" suggestion for what you should do to represent a permanent disability, because being differently abled isn't a one-size-fits-all experience. I'm legally blind without corrective lenses and have mobility issues due to a devastating knee injury from my time in the service. How I interact with the world and perceive my own abilities is going to be different from your life experience, just as both our life experiences would still be unique from someone who had a similar background to either of us.

To use another in-game analogy, I always found the "Blind" oracle curse to be a little offensive because oracles with that curse could see significantly better than I can without corrective lenses. Being told that my everyday state of being was in every way worse than a curse that was supposed to be a terrible burden (according to all the surrounding lore), was upsetting. I've personally sat and had conversations with differently-abled individuals who have expressed their personal frustrations to me regarding the depiction of their experience re: lacking sight, mobility, or hearing. This doesn't give me any special insights into their condition beyond what they shared with me, but it does show me that their interpretation of their experience is often different than yours or mine.

If the company were to create a "one-size-fits-all" set of mechanics beyond those already laid out in the core rulebook and gamemastery guide that fit your interpretation, it might in turn offend someone else as an inaccurate or harmful presentation of their experience. So instead the guidance was left intentionally simple "Work with your player to find ways to respectfully represent the disability. The blinded and deafened conditions aren't good representations of someone with a permanent or long-term sensory experience." It's telling you what not to do followed by suggestions on what might be more appropriate (note that the descriptions for Blindness or Impaired Vision and Deafness or Being Hard of Hearing in the sidebar are not the same as the descriptions for the blinded and deafened conditions, despite having significant overlap). These suggestions are what organized play has picked up as the "one-size-fits-all" approach, because for better or worse a direct goal and requirement of the organized play program is that it has to be one-size-fits-all. It can absolutely be frustrating to want to model your own experience through an RPG and feel that the game doesn't allow you to do so, or that its attempts to do so are insufficient or inaccurate.

The organized play team saw this thread, responded, and encouraged respectful discourse so that they can continue to evaluate their own guides and standards to see if there's more they can do to minimize frustrations like those you are experiencing in a way that doesn't then become offensive or frustrating for someone else who has a similar sensory experience to yours that they perceive differently. I don't know whether or not it will be possible for them to create a solution that is tailored specifically to your experience, but, assuming you play in organized play which seems to be the case, it may be that your local venture-officers can make some reasonable accomodations for you, or if that proves infeasible, they can use their international network of gamers, which includes many differently-abled individuals including those with vision impairments, to see if there is a more nuanced set of options they can propose to the organized play team. It may be at the end of the day that nothing changes. The end result might be that the light framework currently in place is the best solution currently available within the campaign's necessarily rigid framework. But if nothing else, reasonable discussions on the topic with detailed examples and specific requests are the first step toward achieving progress.

This is a game where "blindness" and "deafness" are used as spells/weapons to use against people; however, they are also disabilities and, I think, we need to make a distinction between and among several things: 1. a physical impairment (i.e. blindness, deafness, a mobility impairment, etc.); 2. someone who has a medical condition defined as a disability; 3. someone who identifies as Disabled; 4. a spell or weaponized attack of some kind (aka a condition) that also goes by the same name as "blind," "deaf," "immobilized," etc. Within the field of Disability Studies, one would discuss this as modelling. Discussing all of these conditions as the same thing is what is known as the "medical model." To put it plainly, because I'm sure no one wishes this lecture (certainly not me), the medical model defines "disability" as always and already defective, inherently inferior and, if one cannot be cured, one should be killed. Which is how the language of "blind" and "deaf" become weaponized and long term disabled people become incompatible with the game's model....

Now, that would be fine IF Paizo hadn't set themselves up with a contradictory model of acceptance which is not overridden by, "well, if someone wants to play a character with a disability -- excluding a character with a long term disability, of course -- work it out with the GM (and the next GM, and the next GM, etc.) -- BECAUSE of the very problems within the language within the core rule book, not to mention the attitudes displayed in the short time since I posted here. After all, the very first post I received was one that said that blind characters have no business in the game by someone who clearly wanted to pick a fight. (And I'll freely admit I fight back.) I didn't set this tone; it was set by others who chose to come in here trying to prove there was no way to adapt to life with a disability in the "wilds" adventuring and survive, conquer, thrive... whatever. There is no nice way to say to someone screaming, "I can't find my car keys!" that their car keys are in their hand. No matter how you say it, they're going to end up feeling like an idiot. To put it another way, if people had been paying attention, they would have realized what I've been saying all along; Disabled people, who have lived their lives this way no how to adapt and anyone with any critical reading skills should have clued in by now that I know far more about the Disabled community than the "average bear" (as the colloquialism goes. And, at the same time, Unicore is correct, in the world of Galorion, there is no reason to presume that wheelchairs would be a thing. There is the "flight" spell, after all. Historically, people who couldn't walk thrived in nomadic horse tribes (some were even leaders of those nations) in this real world. So, there are all types of alternatives -- although given Gnomish technology, I'm sure some form of wheelchairish tech would exist in some form or fashion. However, it would, in all likelihood be adapted for the specific terrain of the area it came from (i.e. jungle, desert, forest, plain, etc.). But I digress.

My point was never to make a one-size-fits-all mode of blindness or deafness or the larger disability community but, rather to allow for it to exist where it really isn't allowed. And that sentence doesn't allow for a character to be created with a disability that they were born with (and, no, I'm not creating me in the game -- not that it's any of your business but I acquired mine from head trauma as a child between the ages of 8 & 14 thank you very much for playing). However, I know many schools use games like Pathfinder as a teaching tool for students to learn math, writing, team building skills, problem solving, etc. and allowing children to create a character that they COULD relate to is something that might be useful. It could also be a useful teaching tool for the children to learn how to learn skills they don't think about but use on a regular basis. I'm trying the project out first myself before I suggest it to teachers I know that use Pathfinder in their classrooms as a teaching tool. However, I can't in good conscious give them something that is a hard fail. Right now, as this reads, it's a hard fail BECAUSE it reads that people with long term disabilities are fails.

Horizon Hunters

Ravingdork wrote:

I think treating another sense as a precise sense (as was recommended by Aratorin) while not strictly realistic, might be the easiest way to manage such a character without running into too many balance issues.

You might also play a ranged or spellcasting character (like your aforementioned blind marksman) that uses an animal companion to guide his aim. A hawk that flies over enemies and calls out, directing the shot or spell, perhaps?

If you find some Pathfinder Society games, you may want to reach out to the local Venture Captain directly, explain your situation, and have him give the presiding GMs a heads up about what you need to really enjoy the game. I think that would go a long ways towards your getting more consistent results with your character and play experience.

I'm just kind of spit balling. Hope it helps some.

Yeah, Aratorin's idea seems to make the most sense; unfortunately, until I can find a local group (which doesn't seem likely since Cleveland has no active PFS or PF groups overall in my area). I did reach out the closest PFS captain(?) I could find (was the regional guy) and he contacted two people who were supposed to be in charge of the local play and.... I got no info from them about where they hold games or if they hold games so... So much for this idea...

And, oh, btw, I play almost exclusively healers and casters.

Horizon Hunters

Ssalarn wrote:
Laarafel wrote:
So, for example, rather than saying that people who have been disabled long term are a problem

I feel it's important to note that the rules do not say this, and this is in no way reflective of what has been said. The specific reference is:

"A player might want to create a character with a disability, or their character might end up with a disability over the course of play. Work with the player to find ways to respectfully represent the disability. Conditions such as blinded and deafened aren’t a good fit for a character who has been living with a disability long-term."

While that seems like it's being interpreted by some as saying "It's not appropriate to have blind or deaf characters with long-term disabilities", that's not what that says. It's saying that the mechanical conditions known as blinded and deafened are not appropriate representations of someone with a long-term disability. Those mechanics are designed to convey the specific effects of removing a sense from someone who is acclimated to living with it. For a character who is permanently without sight or hearing, you should use other adjustments.

In the first place, I literally quoted the book;so, I'm not interpreting what it's saying that is actually what it says. It says: "Conditions such as blinded and defended aren't a good fit for a character who has been living with a disability living with a disability long term." (CRB, 487) What that sentence, literally, says is that these two conditions aren't a "good fit" (whatever that is supposed to mean) for a character if that character has lived with that condition for a long time. That's literally what that sentence says and it makes no sense. However, I'm curious as to what your interpretation means because I can't make heads or tails of it. You state,

"Those mechanics are designed to convey the specific effects of removing a sense from someone who is acclimated to living with it. For a character who is permanently without sight or hearing, you should use other adjustments."

Use other "adjustments"? I'm sorry, but this is what I'm trying to establish: how one would be able to do this given the current state of affairs where there are no viable options in place to do so.... Let's put this another way, why don't you give me an example of what you mean since you seem to think that this statement says something it literally doesn't.

Horizon Hunters

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Unicore wrote:

First of all, you are right. All the sees stuff in the rulebook where it wasn't necessary (like for most spell targeting) should absolutely have been written around ability to perceive instead of see. I've brought that up in post before too, and my understanding is that it is something that they would like to try to make better into the future.

But to your question about the character:

Is this a character for a home table or for PFS?

At your home table, I would sincerely hope that the people you are going to play with in person are thoughtful enough to be able to make any accommodations necessary, and waive any rules silliness that would prevent you from playing the character that you want to play, especially since no one who is sighted is going to be able to tell you that you are playing your character wrong.

I have long argued on these forums that most of the mechanical rules for sensory loss should be built around the immediate experience of losing that sense with long term capabilities to learn how to adapt without it. Any character who has been blind since character creation is not going to be experiencing blindness in the same way as a character struck blind on the battlefield. I think the key is making sure the GM understands how there are fewer times where perception check exclusively means a visual perception check than a sighted person is going to realize, especially for a character accustomed to using their other senses to make perception checks.

Which is why the real issue isn't the rules, but the reality that most GMs and other players who are sighted are going to have to be willing to be creative in adventure design and play, and many of them are not willing to take the time to think about. Again, if these are your friends then I sincerely hope they are willing to take the time to be more creative in their play.

If you are making this character with the intention of being able to insert them seamlessly into an organized play situation or other stranger table situation, then I think it is reasonable to have this character ready and hope that the GM and other players see the situation for what it is, a new learning and play opportunity for them as well, but it might be a bit presumptuous to assume that every table is going to be ready. Having a back up character might also be a good idea in that instance, if the goal is just to make sure you are able to play, but long term that does feel like a terrible solution, especially if the group is a recurring group and just decides never to accommodate you. But I have a lot of love for this game and its general community of players and believe you will find a place with this character at a table, and that table will be happy to have you.

Overall, as a member of this community, I want you to know that any player is welcome at my table and that usually we create character concepts together in a session 0, and that concepts such as yours are perfectly welcome, especially in the generation phase of the campaign so that we can all talk through our expectations and concerns to make sure that we can all fun together.

To be honest, I play PbP/PbD in both non-society and society games. So, it's not a bunch of people that I know; these aren't friends from home or even from the area (hell, I can't find a local game -- not even a local PFS game)... So, I'm stuck moving from table to table with a bunch of strangers; so every time I'm usually dealing with a different GM and a different group of people and some idiot going, "Blind people can't do that!" Half the time I've got the group telling me I'm "courageous" for playing the f**ing game... (like it's hard). Since the system is set up in such a way that I can't do anything but table hop, I'm basically forced to reinforce ableism which goes against Paizo's creed of acceptance which seems contradictory to me. Now, I asked to discuss this privately with Paizo because i felt this was an internal matter but they said take it to the forums; so... here I am.

Horizon Hunters

1 person marked this as a favorite.
RexAliquid wrote:

The section in the Core Rulebook is actually right before the section on playing a deaf character.

Blindness or Impaired Vision wrote:


A blind character can’t detect anything using vision, critically fails Perception checks requiring sight, is immune to visual effects, and can’t be blinded or dazzled. You might give this character the Blind-Fight feat (page 149) for free.
A character with impaired vision might take a –2 to –4 penalty to vision-based Perception checks. Spectacles or other corrective devices might reduce or remove this.
And as always, the advice given is to work with your GM.

Actually, what the CRB says is these are suggestions. The paragraph before this read:

"Work with the player to find ways to respectfully represent the disablity. Conditions such as blinded pr deafened aren't a good fit for a character who has been living with a disability long term. Here are suggestions for rules you might use for PCs with disabilities."

Now, note it says quite clearly that these are "suggestions for rules you might use." The argument I have and why I make the comment about ableism is the statement made about long term disability (specifically in relationship to blindness and deafness) because, like Unicore, I know (as anyone in the Disabled community will tell you) someone who has lived with a disability for a long time has learned adaptive skills and techniques that you, abs (sorry, that was disrespectful), that the sighted and hearing simply haven't become familiar with and/or managed to learn. It's not to say you aren't capable of learning; I'm sure you are... quite capable of learning, it's just that most of you don't possess that skill set.

Oh, and more than a few blind people are skilled marksman with both bows and high powered rifles (including myself); I also have a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and until I busted my knee on the job competed around the midwest. But more to your rhetorical commentary about the military... while they do not recruit blind people as sharpshooters, they don't toss them out of that position if they happen to be blind either. And, before you say anything, the U.S. military is notorious for being lax with their medical checks upon entering the military and, once in, they can't force a soldier to leave simply due to disability. In other words, dear boy, someone can have terminal cancer and stay and serve until their death (I happen to know a few who passed their physical just to get through the door so they could get care, chemo and the like -- all pre-ACA) and, yes, I know a couple of blind people who made it through basics, got the sharpshooter badge (apparently it's not that difficult)... So, before you talk, I would suggest knowing of what you speak.

Horizon Hunters

3 people marked this as a favorite.

OK, so I've scoured the Forums looking for information on the subject of creating a blind character for PF2e; however, every time I run a search, I keep getting sent to posts related to PF1.

I'm interested in creating a blind character mostly from an RP perspective; however, I don't feel, if played properly, the "flavor" would alter gameplay. In other words, I'm not looking for this to give the character advantages or disadvantages; as a blind person myself, being blind is a character trait (like being left or right handed) not a flaw. The problem I'm running into is that, while PF2e has some rules and things written into that would allow for Deaf/deaf characters to be written into play rather seamlessly (ex. sign language), aspects that would allow the same for a blind character seem to be absent or, to be more specific, the rules are designed to actively object to blindness or visual impairment.

This is a bit disconcerting, given Paizo's stance on inclusivity and acceptance and more than a bit confusing given how simple it would be to simply make some adaptive tech (i.e. reasonable accommodations) possible to a blind or visually impaired character. For example, a character who was blind could use their staff as a cane as their mobility aid (no need for "blind sense feat" people that's just silliness). One might be able to see if the writing on a wall was raised or indented enough for a blind player to read with the sense of touch (i.e. can you say adaptation of scribe lore)... For other things, one could, of course, use a familiar if one had the class for it if one so chose, the point is there are options ways of mitigating all kinds of things if you know how. However, some of the feats and/or skills specifically utilize the word "eyes" or "see" and, if you've a GM that's being a literal ass (every pun intended)... your blind character just became a liability to the party for no reason other than Paizo's apparent ableism....

Horizon Hunters

Watery Soup wrote:

Thanks, EbonFist! :)

Laarafel wrote:
Everyone is being super nice and that's a great help. Some parts of this I get and don't have a problem with but other parts... I'm like, "You have a PhD, this should not confuse you...." and, still, there I sit, dumbfounded.

Not to be a downer but to make sure your expectations are realistic, not everyone is going to be nice and helpful. Don't let them get to you.

I don't know what your PhD is in, but if it was lab-based, you're probably familiar with choosing a lab. All the friendly people reach out to the rotation students and it's all roses and unicorns. All the grumps stay in their lairs and you don't meet them until after you've joined a lab.

lol No, I've already met one or two ppl who... (how can I put this nicely) were apparently raised in barns - and that's an insult to farm animals everywhere but, overall, my experience hasn't been troll city which is a nice change of pace. As for the degree.... no, not a lab field (most academic fields don't do labs btw). No, my work was (I'm retired) in the social sciences and humanities; hence, the people would argue I worked in a field related to this.... Cultural Studies (the academic field I was trained in) is considered a fluff field) and, while my area of expertise is law and public policy, most people think of comic books, pop culture and, well, D&D...

Horizon Hunters

lmao No, but some would argue it is in a related area.

Horizon Hunters

Again, appreciate all the help and advice. I did go to Roll for Combat and asked for help there and got in on a table that isn't full just yet; introduced myself to the GM and asked if he might be willing to look over my character sheet for me and give me some feedback (make sure I didn't misinterpret the rules on how many skills, feats, etc.) I could take)....

Everyone is being super nice and that's a great help. Some parts of this I get and don't have a problem with but other parts... I'm like, "You have a PhD, this should not confuse you...." and, still, there I sit, dumbfounded.

Horizon Hunters

Appreciate the help! Thank you, all. I did sign up to both Discords that were listed -- although still lost and confused as to where everything is (I've never seen so many chat channels on a disc server before lol). Seriously, I think I signed up on one of the google sign up sheets correctly... Nothing like an rpg game to make you feel like an idiot. :P

Horizon Hunters

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hi, I'm fairly new to the game. Haven't played Pathfinder for long and haven't ever played PbP before so I'm not exactly sure how this all works. Kind of wondering the same thing as @SuperBidi: How do I subscribe to a game? Do I just contact the GM/DM? Sign up... Should I sign up to the discord channel? If someone could just teach the newbie the ropes I'd appreciate it. lol