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![]() Nefreet wrote:
One would wish that was true but I've had this happen more than once and the only conclusion I can come to, based on their commentary and mine was the only record keeping that they questioned, is that they didn't believe I could do math. Regardless and because it's a game, I really don't want to have to deal with ignorant ableist individuals who think disabled people (blind people specifically) can't do anything. Because these guidelines for this change specifically state, "Mark the gold earned on your most recent Chronicle Sheet with a note about its source," that is what I'm going to have to deal with and, to be honest, I can't rely on VOs to do their job with regard to this type of behavior because, when I have reported this type of thing, I've been told to just move onto another table (i.e. "just don't play with them") and don't worry about it..... kind of what I'm getting here... rather than correcting the issue. ![]()
![]() I need some clarification on how Paizo is planning on dealing with, for example, blind players who, because of how chronicles have been created by Paizo, can't edit their chronicle sheets (at all). In fact, if one is blind and uses a screen reader, you can't even fill out a blank one -- which means you can never GM. But getting back to the current problem, is Paizo going to finally create fillable sheets so that blind players can actually do what you're suggesting in this announcement (i.e. "Mark the gold earned on your most recent Chronicle Sheet with a note about its source.") OR are you going to create some other type of announcement to make this accessible (ex. Blind players can just put a typed sheet of paper with the gold into their collection of chronicles to denote the change). I ask because, currently, it is being stated that GMs don't have to do this for players and even one nice individual said that we should get a tattoo of the added downtime.... ![]()
![]() BoseMensch wrote:
As stated before (that you clearly didn't read), I already sent emails to both customer service AND the paizocononline email address and the only response I received was from the customer service email stating that someone would get back to me from Paizo about the issue. Paizocononline hasn't responded at all (not even an automated response) -- which one would expect would be typical for such a big event. Two: Tonya and the others who claim to be organizing this event say that they are willing to include, however, they also say that things will be done only through Warhorn AND in a first come, first seated manner. Now, if one cannot utilize Warhorn and one cannot (due to the current situation AND how Warhorn is set up) contact the event people or the GMs to get one's name added to the table or to GM, for example, before the table fills up because those individuals are indisposed, that lack of accessibility negatively impacts Disabled players and, unlike someone else's analogy of a broken door is neither temporary and unforeseeable prior to the event's planning. Doors break and, no, one does not close down an entire facility because of it; instead, one hires a repair crew to fix the door. However, if one is planning an event in a facility where one knows that there is no wheelchair accessibility, one is going to be held accountable for that lack of access whether that event was planned last minute or not. As the recent pandemic demonstrated to our state's various county board of elections, not being prepared and not knowing protocols, rules and legislation does not make one exempt from following those rules whether one is an employee of the county board of elections or merely a volunteer answering the phone. And, for those who are not familiar, DOJ/OCR cases don't go to court; it is an investigative process. One files a claim, the DOJ does one of two things: either helps mediate a resolution or investigates the allegation and makes a determination; there is no court case, no lawsuit. If the DOJ investigates, they investigate however much or little they decide to do (they may limit themselves to strictly what is involved with your allegations or, if they find cause, go beyond the scope of your allegations, and investigate beyond the scope of your charges). The DOJ makes a decision not a courtroom/trial whether or not there is a violation of the law and, if so, what the entity must do to resolve the issue. And for anyone who wishes to know more, one really can look this stuff up on the DOJ website; it's all explained fairly well on their page. ![]()
![]() Gnollvalue wrote:
Just an FYI, this is what happens when one follows your advice: https://youtu.be/DqG2ymixmvY ![]()
![]() Hmm wrote:
While different groups/entities may be putting on separate events, both are entities which, in the end and to a degree, an extension of Paizo. And, yes, putting on a different event with a shorter schedule would be more problematic; however and at the same time, had Paizo been thinking this through, this would have been organized further out, contingencies put in place, etc. The reality is that going through Warhorn provides for no allowance for reasonable accommodations and no ADA compliance because it is first come first seated (based on the stated rules here on this forum -- which by default leaves any and all PwDs on the sidelines that need reasonable accommodations to play the game and either can't sign up until they get an accommodation to sign up (like me) OR need to get an accommodation approved in order to insure that they can play the game they sign up for (ex. someone who is deaf who needs to use chat instead of voice). These types of accommodations take time to arrange and Paizo (and those involved in arranging this Con left no room to create space/time to arrange for accommodations) AND because sign up for both GM positions and players is through Warhorn, if one cannot sign up via this device some subsets can't utilize this venue and thereby are automatically excluded from this Con. Paizo didn't need to hang a "No Disabled People allowed" sign outside; it's implied and inferred. ![]()
![]() Shifty wrote:
Specifically, it isn't screen reader friendly. Well, to be clear, it is screen reader friendly until you try to join a game or become a GM and then it isn't screen reader friendly because the developer created a pop-up (or what I believe is a pop-up) that will not allow one to interact with it utilizing keystrokes; you have to use a mouse. According to the creator of Warhorn, it works with Voice Over (which is Apple's screen reader); however, like a lot of Blind people, I use a PC and have JAWS (the screen reader for people using PCs) and, while it registers that there is a pop-up window of some kind, it won't read it... which means he didn't code it properly (this means he didn't follow basic ADA protocols set up by federal guidelines that are generic so that all screen readers will work regardless of which one you're using). This is the link to the video I finally ended up making for the guy from Warhorn to show him the problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmOJJKMYWVg ![]()
![]() TwilightKnight wrote:
If you are what you claim to be and have actually read the law then you know this is not necessarily the case, there are loopholes, small businesses are exempt. Warhorn falls under the auspices of a small business because it, purportedly, has less than the requisite number of employees required under the ADA. However, a Con under Paizo's banner -- a company affiliated, corporate Con (i.e. it is their flagship event) falls under the auspices of the corporation for which it is housed even though those organizing it are volunteers, just as volunteers at a hospital are considered as working for the hospital while "working" for that hospital while in the process of volunteering their time. If during that time, they violate the law, they are doing so as representatives of the company for which they are volunteering (yes, I've dealt with this kind of thing before). While Warhorn may not fall under the purview of the law due to the lack of employees, this does not make Paizo any less responsible for upholding ADA and CVAA on their end... and I know this because I've also taken hospitals, public transportation and other companies to task for this before.... I really do know what I'm talking about. ![]()
![]() Dragnmoon wrote:
Actually, the past two online Cons (which Paizo has done) were dealt with via Google sheets not Warhorn; so, in short, you are mistaken. There is an alternative and it's an alternative that they've used and it's accessible. The reality is that Paizo could have done a variety of things: 1. postponed the event until such time as they were ready to put it on properly; 2. utilized the online formats that they already have used in the past; 3. began looking at alternative online vendors that were ADA compliant and gotten a contract for fulfillment of procurement between the time that this pandemic started AND now (its not like pandemics end overnight; this wasn't going away in a month or two and, while the President might have been touting that, no one in the medical and scientific fields was -- which means Paizo should have/could have been preparing from day one of lockdown which wasn't weeks ago).... And, since I have a background in putting together events -- yes, I've actually done event planning for large events before, I know how much time and effort is involved in the initial planning; however, we aren't talking about starting from scratch; we're talking about moving from one venue to another; it's a large task, to be sure, but not something that requires eons of time and prep if one has done one's homework and pre-planning for contingencies which, if you're doing an event like this... you should be thinking contingencies, have a "how to" list in place and know the when, where and how to get from point A to point B. If I'm getting "We don't know how" from Tonya about the ADA that means they had know plan because they didn't even know the law, pure and simple.... and we're talking about a law that's over 20 years old. Since they just put on 2 online events that used Google sheets, the line that they have to use Warhorn falls a little flat. And, as I stated already to Zero, I've already contacted Paizo -- BEFORE posting here on this forum. This was a public information post. So, let me be plain (since people seem to not understand what public information post means), I posted here to let people know that, if the plug gets pulled on this event suddenly or things get suddenly rearranged or postponed, you'll know why because I didn't feel it would be fair to pull the rug out on the general public and leave them going, "What the hell?" all because Paizo was acting inappropriately. Or, are all of you saying you would prefer to have been left in the dark and, suddenly, Tonya got on here and said, "Sorry guys, the Cons been cancelled until further notice." No explanation because DOJ will tie their hands about saying anything (because any payback against me comes back to bite them).... Is that what I'm hearing is preferred? Because I can file the paperwork right now if that is the general consensus of the consumers of the product. ![]()
![]() TriOmegaZero wrote: Looking at the discussion so far, that appears to be unproductive and a waste of time. I wish you luck in achieving your goals. Ah, I see. So, you couldn't explain your commentary -- why you stated, "You are mistaken." and/or what you meant by it specifically. So, instead, you decided to proclaim that this whole conversation was supposedly where I was attempting to get something done? lol Someone needs to learn to read; I made it plain that I was merely announcing what was going on in public here that's all; whatever happens (or doesn't) is Paizo's decision and it will be Paizo's decision whether the Feds get involved in this; Paizo was sent an email BEFORE I put a post on this forum. ![]()
![]() TriOmegaZero wrote:
I'm confused. Are you calling me a liar because I don't remember ever talking to you or because you think that I did something illegal? Please explain instead of being obtuse. ![]()
![]() TriOmegaZero wrote:
I don't recall ever talking to you but whatever. I didn't ask for this fight. You are suggesting that I, not Paizo, did something illegal and untoward. Let me be perfectly clear, I've done nothing wrong; Paizo is currently in violation of federal civil rights statutes, two of them to be specific: The Americans with Disabilities Act and the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act, by partnering with entities that are not compliant with these Acts. So, what you are claiming is that, because I expect a company to abide by federal civil rights laws I'm picking a fight and, therefore, deserve to be treated poorly.... Interesting way reframing discrimination into... more discrimination. ![]()
![]() Hmm wrote:
It's not stressful, Hmm, it's irritating; it's aggravating and annoyingly predictable. Hell, that's why I was able to predict that this would happen months before it did happen and told people connected to Paizo to not use Warhorn in relationship to events like a Con or this would invariable occur. It was just a matter of time before someone took the time to stand up and say no more; I won't be a 2nd class citizen. And, no, we have a stay at home order in effect and Tonya made it very clear in her post to you that it is first come first sat, which means that if you can't use Warhorn to get yourself seated at a table or anything else at this Con then too bad for you. ![]()
![]() TwilightKnight wrote:
Dear, I suggest if you are the event coordinator that you speak to an attorney. ![]()
![]() TOZ wrote:
To answer your question: No, the best method would have been to immediately contact the Department of Justice, Office of Civil Rights upon seeing the post about the Con rather than doing anything here. And they would have, in all likelihood (because I've seen it done before) shut the Con down immediately until this was resolved... which may not have been resolved until after they were done investigating which sometimes takes years. So, I thought of the other players before I thought of Disabled people when it came to the Con and decided I'd let Paizo have the opportunity to be publicly humiliated and maybe, maybe come to the table and talk rather than dragged through that ringer. ![]()
![]() Tonya Woldridge wrote:
The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (aka the ADA) is over 20 years old. It's a federal civil rights law and you're suggesting that Paizo doesn't know how to "bridge the gap".... or simply avoid companies that are not ADA compliant? The Dept. of Justice, Office of Civil Rights is capable of helping Paizo with this problem. Would you like me to call them, Tonya? ![]()
![]() Captain Morgan wrote:
I would agree with you except that: 1. Paizo has not made a distinction between the mechanics of the spell "blindness" and the impairment/condition "blinded"; they've simply said x causes y which has led, it would appear, to this confusion for Ssalaren, for example, to believe that both conditions must always and already be short term mechanical devises within the game that are short-term and easily removed.... which lead him/her to the presumption that somehow(?) one create a character that is permanently blind or deaf but not permanently blind or deaf (because that goes against p. 487 quite clearly) by, as Ssalaren interpreted it: "It's saying that the mechanical conditions known as blinded and deafened are not appropriate representations of someone with a long-term disability. Those mechanics are designed to convey the specific effects of removing a sense from someone who is acclimated to living with it. For a character who is permanently without sight or hearing, you should use other adjustments." When asked how exactly that would look/work, Ssalaren couldn't come up with an idea; now, when someone comes up with that inventive an interpretation they usually have an example in mind.... Please, don't confuse my understanding of the rulebook with trying to get Ssalaren to explain his interpretation. Don't get me wrong, Paizo did some things wrong when it created these linguistic gymnastics because they made little to no distinction between the mechanic and the condition, and none between impairment and the mechanic and then simply put an x = y to create a spell. So, "blind" is an impairment that someone can have; a mechanical condition (blinded is simply the past tense "blind" is present tense of that verb); "Blindness" can refer to both the spell or the impairment that someone possesses (ex. "color blindness"... do I need to make a sentence that a character might use in the game to describe someone who is blind?). Don't get me wrong, I understand the problems with what they were trying to do given the social constructs surrounding disability; however and at the same time, to suggest that these terms don't create a linguistic confusion all their own is problematic, at best.... At the same time, there are things that Ssalaren jumped to conclusions about that I asked for a reasonable explanation of that interpretation.... If you're going to throw out an interpretation that says, "Do x," then give an example of how X might be done. And Ssalaren's response was, "I think it does make sense. This is a game. In this game "blinded" and "deafened" are specific mechanical constructs, and they are written with the assumption that the condition is both short-term and easily removed. If you are playing a character who is permanently differently-abled, then you shouldn't use those conditions because they aren't tailored to that experience." Which is basically saying if you're playing a character with a long-term disability, they've adapted to their long-term disability so *poof* they no longer have their disability.... Seriously??? I know this world is magical but I'm sorry my CRB must have the page missing with the "Cure Pill" on it.... I'm looking for an explanation of the interpretation and what I got was, *throws hands up* "I don't know how to explain myself or my logic." ![]()
![]() Captain Morgan wrote:
Actually, I sent those messages months ago... but neither here nor there. As for that website, Warhorn is not ADA compliant and, therefore, not screen reader friendly, which means I can't use it. So, any games posted there aren't accessible (i.e. games I can be aware of). So, if local area PFS captains don't respond to requests, I don't know about events because they aren't responding to emails and post on a non-ADA compliant venue.... ![]()
![]() Ssalarn wrote:
This is a game where "blindness" and "deafness" are used as spells/weapons to use against people; however, they are also disabilities and, I think, we need to make a distinction between and among several things: 1. a physical impairment (i.e. blindness, deafness, a mobility impairment, etc.); 2. someone who has a medical condition defined as a disability; 3. someone who identifies as Disabled; 4. a spell or weaponized attack of some kind (aka a condition) that also goes by the same name as "blind," "deaf," "immobilized," etc. Within the field of Disability Studies, one would discuss this as modelling. Discussing all of these conditions as the same thing is what is known as the "medical model." To put it plainly, because I'm sure no one wishes this lecture (certainly not me), the medical model defines "disability" as always and already defective, inherently inferior and, if one cannot be cured, one should be killed. Which is how the language of "blind" and "deaf" become weaponized and long term disabled people become incompatible with the game's model.... Now, that would be fine IF Paizo hadn't set themselves up with a contradictory model of acceptance which is not overridden by, "well, if someone wants to play a character with a disability -- excluding a character with a long term disability, of course -- work it out with the GM (and the next GM, and the next GM, etc.) -- BECAUSE of the very problems within the language within the core rule book, not to mention the attitudes displayed in the short time since I posted here. After all, the very first post I received was one that said that blind characters have no business in the game by someone who clearly wanted to pick a fight. (And I'll freely admit I fight back.) I didn't set this tone; it was set by others who chose to come in here trying to prove there was no way to adapt to life with a disability in the "wilds" adventuring and survive, conquer, thrive... whatever. There is no nice way to say to someone screaming, "I can't find my car keys!" that their car keys are in their hand. No matter how you say it, they're going to end up feeling like an idiot. To put it another way, if people had been paying attention, they would have realized what I've been saying all along; Disabled people, who have lived their lives this way no how to adapt and anyone with any critical reading skills should have clued in by now that I know far more about the Disabled community than the "average bear" (as the colloquialism goes. And, at the same time, Unicore is correct, in the world of Galorion, there is no reason to presume that wheelchairs would be a thing. There is the "flight" spell, after all. Historically, people who couldn't walk thrived in nomadic horse tribes (some were even leaders of those nations) in this real world. So, there are all types of alternatives -- although given Gnomish technology, I'm sure some form of wheelchairish tech would exist in some form or fashion. However, it would, in all likelihood be adapted for the specific terrain of the area it came from (i.e. jungle, desert, forest, plain, etc.). But I digress. My point was never to make a one-size-fits-all mode of blindness or deafness or the larger disability community but, rather to allow for it to exist where it really isn't allowed. And that sentence doesn't allow for a character to be created with a disability that they were born with (and, no, I'm not creating me in the game -- not that it's any of your business but I acquired mine from head trauma as a child between the ages of 8 & 14 thank you very much for playing). However, I know many schools use games like Pathfinder as a teaching tool for students to learn math, writing, team building skills, problem solving, etc. and allowing children to create a character that they COULD relate to is something that might be useful. It could also be a useful teaching tool for the children to learn how to learn skills they don't think about but use on a regular basis. I'm trying the project out first myself before I suggest it to teachers I know that use Pathfinder in their classrooms as a teaching tool. However, I can't in good conscious give them something that is a hard fail. Right now, as this reads, it's a hard fail BECAUSE it reads that people with long term disabilities are fails. ![]()
![]() Ravingdork wrote:
Yeah, Aratorin's idea seems to make the most sense; unfortunately, until I can find a local group (which doesn't seem likely since Cleveland has no active PFS or PF groups overall in my area). I did reach out the closest PFS captain(?) I could find (was the regional guy) and he contacted two people who were supposed to be in charge of the local play and.... I got no info from them about where they hold games or if they hold games so... So much for this idea... And, oh, btw, I play almost exclusively healers and casters. ![]()
![]() Ssalarn wrote:
In the first place, I literally quoted the book;so, I'm not interpreting what it's saying that is actually what it says. It says: "Conditions such as blinded and defended aren't a good fit for a character who has been living with a disability living with a disability long term." (CRB, 487) What that sentence, literally, says is that these two conditions aren't a "good fit" (whatever that is supposed to mean) for a character if that character has lived with that condition for a long time. That's literally what that sentence says and it makes no sense. However, I'm curious as to what your interpretation means because I can't make heads or tails of it. You state, "Those mechanics are designed to convey the specific effects of removing a sense from someone who is acclimated to living with it. For a character who is permanently without sight or hearing, you should use other adjustments." Use other "adjustments"? I'm sorry, but this is what I'm trying to establish: how one would be able to do this given the current state of affairs where there are no viable options in place to do so.... Let's put this another way, why don't you give me an example of what you mean since you seem to think that this statement says something it literally doesn't. ![]()
![]() Unicore wrote:
To be honest, I play PbP/PbD in both non-society and society games. So, it's not a bunch of people that I know; these aren't friends from home or even from the area (hell, I can't find a local game -- not even a local PFS game)... So, I'm stuck moving from table to table with a bunch of strangers; so every time I'm usually dealing with a different GM and a different group of people and some idiot going, "Blind people can't do that!" Half the time I've got the group telling me I'm "courageous" for playing the f**ing game... (like it's hard). Since the system is set up in such a way that I can't do anything but table hop, I'm basically forced to reinforce ableism which goes against Paizo's creed of acceptance which seems contradictory to me. Now, I asked to discuss this privately with Paizo because i felt this was an internal matter but they said take it to the forums; so... here I am. ![]()
![]() RexAliquid wrote:
Actually, what the CRB says is these are suggestions. The paragraph before this read: "Work with the player to find ways to respectfully represent the disablity. Conditions such as blinded pr deafened aren't a good fit for a character who has been living with a disability long term. Here are suggestions for rules you might use for PCs with disabilities." Now, note it says quite clearly that these are "suggestions for rules you might use." The argument I have and why I make the comment about ableism is the statement made about long term disability (specifically in relationship to blindness and deafness) because, like Unicore, I know (as anyone in the Disabled community will tell you) someone who has lived with a disability for a long time has learned adaptive skills and techniques that you, abs (sorry, that was disrespectful), that the sighted and hearing simply haven't become familiar with and/or managed to learn. It's not to say you aren't capable of learning; I'm sure you are... quite capable of learning, it's just that most of you don't possess that skill set. Oh, and more than a few blind people are skilled marksman with both bows and high powered rifles (including myself); I also have a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and until I busted my knee on the job competed around the midwest. But more to your rhetorical commentary about the military... while they do not recruit blind people as sharpshooters, they don't toss them out of that position if they happen to be blind either. And, before you say anything, the U.S. military is notorious for being lax with their medical checks upon entering the military and, once in, they can't force a soldier to leave simply due to disability. In other words, dear boy, someone can have terminal cancer and stay and serve until their death (I happen to know a few who passed their physical just to get through the door so they could get care, chemo and the like -- all pre-ACA) and, yes, I know a couple of blind people who made it through basics, got the sharpshooter badge (apparently it's not that difficult)... So, before you talk, I would suggest knowing of what you speak. ![]()
![]() OK, so I've scoured the Forums looking for information on the subject of creating a blind character for PF2e; however, every time I run a search, I keep getting sent to posts related to PF1. I'm interested in creating a blind character mostly from an RP perspective; however, I don't feel, if played properly, the "flavor" would alter gameplay. In other words, I'm not looking for this to give the character advantages or disadvantages; as a blind person myself, being blind is a character trait (like being left or right handed) not a flaw. The problem I'm running into is that, while PF2e has some rules and things written into that would allow for Deaf/deaf characters to be written into play rather seamlessly (ex. sign language), aspects that would allow the same for a blind character seem to be absent or, to be more specific, the rules are designed to actively object to blindness or visual impairment. This is a bit disconcerting, given Paizo's stance on inclusivity and acceptance and more than a bit confusing given how simple it would be to simply make some adaptive tech (i.e. reasonable accommodations) possible to a blind or visually impaired character. For example, a character who was blind could use their staff as a cane as their mobility aid (no need for "blind sense feat" people that's just silliness). One might be able to see if the writing on a wall was raised or indented enough for a blind player to read with the sense of touch (i.e. can you say adaptation of scribe lore)... For other things, one could, of course, use a familiar if one had the class for it if one so chose, the point is there are options ways of mitigating all kinds of things if you know how. However, some of the feats and/or skills specifically utilize the word "eyes" or "see" and, if you've a GM that's being a literal ass (every pun intended)... your blind character just became a liability to the party for no reason other than Paizo's apparent ableism.... ![]()
![]() Watery Soup wrote:
lol No, I've already met one or two ppl who... (how can I put this nicely) were apparently raised in barns - and that's an insult to farm animals everywhere but, overall, my experience hasn't been troll city which is a nice change of pace. As for the degree.... no, not a lab field (most academic fields don't do labs btw). No, my work was (I'm retired) in the social sciences and humanities; hence, the people would argue I worked in a field related to this.... Cultural Studies (the academic field I was trained in) is considered a fluff field) and, while my area of expertise is law and public policy, most people think of comic books, pop culture and, well, D&D... ![]()
![]() Again, appreciate all the help and advice. I did go to Roll for Combat and asked for help there and got in on a table that isn't full just yet; introduced myself to the GM and asked if he might be willing to look over my character sheet for me and give me some feedback (make sure I didn't misinterpret the rules on how many skills, feats, etc.) I could take).... Everyone is being super nice and that's a great help. Some parts of this I get and don't have a problem with but other parts... I'm like, "You have a PhD, this should not confuse you...." and, still, there I sit, dumbfounded. ![]()
![]() Appreciate the help! Thank you, all. I did sign up to both Discords that were listed -- although still lost and confused as to where everything is (I've never seen so many chat channels on a disc server before lol). Seriously, I think I signed up on one of the google sign up sheets correctly... Nothing like an rpg game to make you feel like an idiot. :P ![]()
![]() Hi, I'm fairly new to the game. Haven't played Pathfinder for long and haven't ever played PbP before so I'm not exactly sure how this all works. Kind of wondering the same thing as @SuperBidi: How do I subscribe to a game? Do I just contact the GM/DM? Sign up... Should I sign up to the discord channel? If someone could just teach the newbie the ropes I'd appreciate it. lol
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