Kurald Galain's page

As he's WPrst 2 it'll be a First SplLvl spell... (PrCs notoriously do not increase base class abilities).

It doesn't have to. The warpriest's Fervor ability has no level restriction in itself, it just requires a "warpriest spell he has prepared". If a PrC allows you to prepare higher-level warpriest spells, you can use them with fervor.

Then the MT WPrst/Sor can spend a full round action (goes off in next round)

A one-round casting time goes off in the next round; a full round action goes off in the same round; as noted here.

PrC-Evangelist PFS note requires 6th level in a class.

...why would we expect a theory op build to be PFS-legal?

Still, it doesn't come close to the standard specialist wizard. I'll note that I'm just using standard spells and such. Rapid time Mindscape, accelerated flowing time demiplanes etc are other ways...

Sure. I'm not saying this build is stronger than a wizard (wizard is the strongest class in the game, after all). I'm just saying that casting so many spells in a round (at level five, no less) is pretty funny. And, y'know, theory op.

Action economy wins combats, and everybody knows spellcasters are powerful. So, how would you like to cast three spells per round? It only works a couple times per day, but then, with a spell output like that combats won't last very long. Let's do some theory op to see how early we can do this.

First, the Warpriest can cast spells on himself as a swift action. This is normally paired with weapon attacks, but there's nothing stopping you from combining it with regular casting. Second, a warpriest doing this will run out of spells quickly, but a Mystic Theurge has slots to spare. Third, sorcerer has a bloodline with wisdom-based casting.

So I present: Warpriest 2 / Empyreal Sorcerer 1 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Evangelist 7. Race is human, for the bonus feat and +2 wisdom.

You can do early entry with the feat Equipment Trick (Sunrod), which makes your [light] spells count one level higher, and is explicitly "for all purposes". Other early entry tricks have been errata'ed out, but not this one. This might not make your GM happy, but I did say this is theory op. :smalltongue:

As a dual caster, you get the bonus spells from high wisdom on both sides. The Sacred Fist warpriest archetype also gets wisdom to AC, which is neat. Then it gets IUS, so a cheap Guided AOMF gives wis-based OAs, if you somehow need any. Traits like Empathic Diplomat let you rebase your favorite skill on wisdom; and Perception already uses wis. Overall, you're even SADder than a full caster. Finally, the trait Magical Knack keeps you at max caster level for sorcerer; warpriest is just one behind.

That's two spells per round. So how do we get three? Well, a Mystic Theurge can use the feat Lesser Spell Synthesis to cast two spells simultaneously, once per day. Take this feat as often as you can, and combine it with the warpriest's swift casting, and it may look like Dr. Strange! These swift-cast spells can only target yourself, but there are a few "aura" spells that buff or debuff everybody nearby while still targeting only yourself (e.g. Magic Circle Against Evil). Will this get you whacked with a PHB? Probably, but also theory op. :smallamused: If you want less cheese, just use defensive buffs, or pick a deity that grants e.g. Invis. At higher level, Quicken Spell and Spell Perfection can replace the warpriest's swift cast with our favorite sorcerer spell.

For example, by level 8 you have third-level arcane and divine spells. With 24 wisdom, that's 14/12/8 spells per day; wisdom applies to spell DC, your best skills, and armor class. Assuming four combats per day, you can open each combat with three spells on turn one and two spells on turn two (four LSS feats, so either don't go for Spell Perfection, or use the retraining rules). Think you'll run out of spells? You've got around 25% more than a regular sorcerer, so your endurance is pretty good. After ten levels of mystic theurge, the Evangelist prestige class can extend its progression, again in theory op. Alternatively, just go full sorcerer afterwards (which gives you more feats to invest in LSS, and a bonus feat). Either way nets you 9th-level arcane spells at CL20.

Finally, a Magus/Warpriest build can switch between arcane/divine/divine spells (via LSS) and arcane/divine/full attack (via Spell Combat), although this lacks the crazy wis synergy and is pretty MAD.

And that's how you get wise to action economy :smallbiggrin: Comments and suggestions welcome.

1. Warpriest, sacred fist, feat IUS, any two metamagic
2. Sorcerer, empyreal
3. Warpriest, feat Equipment Trick (Sunrod)
4. Mystic Theurge
5. MT, feat Lesser Spell Synthesis, divine L2
6. MT, arcane L2
7. MT, feat LSS
8. MT, arcane and divine L3
9. MT, feat Favored Prestige Class (MT)
10.MT, arcane L4
11.MT, feat Prestigious Spellcaster, divine L4
12.MT, arcane L5
13.MT, feat Deific Obedience, (Spell Synthesis)
14.Evangelist, arcane L6, divine L5
15.Evangelist, feat Quicken Spell
16.Evangelist, arcane L7
17.Evangelist, feat Spell Perfection, divine L6
18.Evangelist, arcane L8
19.Evangelist, feat LSS
20.Evangelist, arcane L9

or,
9. MT, feat LSS
10.MT, arcane L4
11.MT, feat LSS, divine L4
12.MT, arcane L5
13.MT, feat Quicken Spell, (Spell Synthesis)
14.Sorcerer, arcane L6
15.Sorcerer, feat Spell Perfection
16.Sorcerer, arcane L7
17.Sorcerer, feat LSS
18.Sorcerer, arcane L8
19.Sorcerer, feat LSS, Extend Spell
20.Sorcerer, arcane L9

I've been looking at some monsters with massive strength scores, and was wondering how high you can get as a character. So I've come up with this weightlifting champion. This is meant as theory-op but it doesn't use any big loopholes, so it's actually playable (if a bit silly). Also, feel free to post your own high-strength characters!

So I present: Bloodrager 4 / Alchemist 2 / Dragon Disciple 7 / Bloodrager +7.

Take the following feats and class options:

• For the bloodrager, the bloody-knuckled rowdy archetype (for bonus feats) and crossblooded. Bloodlines are draconic (required for dragon disciple) and abyssal (which enlarges for free when raging, and at levels 12+ provides another strength boost).
  
• The bonus feat is Blood Frenzy Style, which adds +2 to strength when you take damage. At bloodrager level 5, this activates at the start of each combat.
  
• Bloodrager can also get a familiar. Let's go with a figment, which is imaginary and returns for free when killed.
  
• Blood Vengeance feat. If anyone kicks your imaginary puppy, your strength goes up!
  
• Finally, bloodrager can get the Blood Piercing mutation, which adds your strength bonus to SR checks a couple times per day.
  
• For the alchemist, the ragechemist archetype gives +2 more strength while using mutagen. Also, vivisectionist replaces our low-damage bomb by +1d6 sneak attack.
  
• Alchemist gets one discovery, so let's take a Tentacle for another attack and pretend it's a draconic tail.
  
• Deific Obedience feat. Gorum is a fitting god for a hulk-like character, and it adds +4 to all our strength checks and skills (not attacks). At level 16 it gets the ability from the Strength domain to add up to +10 (!) more. If you qualify for a divine gift (under the GM's control, so not included below) then Gorum's is a permanent +1 to strength.
  
• A scroll of Visualization of the Body adds another +5 to strength skills and checks, for a day.
  
• Trap Wrecker feat, which lets you disable devices by hitting them really hard.
  
• Skill Focus, Eldritch Heritage (orc), Improved Eldritch Heritage feats. Yes, our orc is descended from a long bloodline of... orcs. At high level, this adds +6 to our strength. Unfortunately this doesn't stack with tomes.
  
• Fun traits are Wrecking Wrath (1/d double your str mod to an attack) and Balanced Education (1/d add str to an int check), because we're so strong that we can punch knowledge checks.
  

At level 10, our strength score ends up as follows:

• 18 point buy
  
• +4 race (orc)
  
• +2 levelup
  
• +4 belt
  
• +4 rage
  
• +6 mutagen
  
• +4 dragon disciple
  
• +2 enlarge
  
• +2 improved eldritch heritage
  
• +2 Blood Vengeance
  
• +2 blood frenzy style
  

But wait, we're not done yet. At level 14 and up, the bonuses from abyssal and orc bloodline kick in, and at level 18 the spell Form of the Dragon kicks in whenever we rage.
Also, we can add the Blood Rage spell (from a potion or ally). It lasts only 1 round per level, but if we can manage to take 25 damage, our rage bonus increases to +10.
Then, the spell Pesh Vigor (which is on the bloodrager list) lets us deal damage to ourself as a free action, to increase the enhancement bonus to strength to +10. Doing this for two rounds will most likely max out Blood Rage, as well as trigger Blood Frenzy Style if that was still needed.
There's also the Biting Words spell (also on the bloodrager list) which deals ranged damage based on strength, basically by shouting at people. Not amazing but very fitting.
Finally, the Ant Haul spell (on the alchemist list) flat-out triples our carrying capacity.

At level 20, it looks like this:

• 18 point buy
  
• +4 race (orc)
  
• +5 levelup
  
• +6 belt
  
• +6 rage
  
• +4 abyssal bloodline
  
• +6 mutagen
  
• +4 dragon disciple
  
• +6 form of the dragon
  
• +6 improved eldritch heritage
  
• +2 Blood Vengeance
  
• +2 blood frenzy style
  
• +2 blood rage spell
  
• +4 pesh vigor spell
  

Regarding weightlifting, our heavy load is 7,3 million pounds, or 3300 metric tonnes. This makes it trivial to pick up an elephant, blue whale, or dragon; we’re at the level where moving buildings and landmarks around is very doable. The Apollo 11 rocket weighs about 3300 tonnes, so we can carry that around. How's that for making the olympics blush?

The issue is that Ray of Frost and Acid Splash are really weak, even at low level. Disrupt Undead is mainly good because common undead (like zombies) have DR which low-level martials may have trouble with.

I'd model a fire cantrip after the power of the Fire Domain, which deals 1d6 + half level damage. That's decent and is not going to overpower anything.

However, I have found that the bad guys pass saves far more often than they fail them. even with the boosts from feats etc you can have from feats.

First, we have actual statistics available on monster saving throws, and they do not support your claim that bad guys "pass saves far more often".

Second, you haven't accounted for area effects. If your Grease spell has a 60% chance of working, but you target two creatures, then you have an 84% chance of proning one, and a 36% chance of proning both.

Third, proning is a FAR stronger effect than dealing 3.5 damage.

...there's a reason why Grease (and similar spells) are rated good to excellent in every single class handbook where they're relevant. Anyway, if you want to start a new thread on how much crowd control spells suck, be my guest.

The common advice for arcane casters is: use crowd control, it rocks!

So, I'm taking the leap and trying the full arcane casters for the first time ever. I'm super nervous because I'm more used to playing the characters that hits things...

First of all, don't neglect cantrips! In particular Daze and Disrupt Undead can be life savers at low levels.

Second, you get arcanist exploits (at level 3 in your case, and you can spend feats to get more). For instance, Dimensional Slide is amazing for your mobility, Armored Mask gives you a pretty good armor class as a swift action, and Counterspell is great to mess with the GM's strategy.

Third, at low level you probably want to prepare combat spells almost exclusively (although this depends on the campaign). Spells like Disguise Self and Secluded Grimoire are great once you have a bit more spell slots; at the first couple levels stick with summons, Silent Image, and Grease.

Fourth, you can use scrolls, and they're cheap. Any uncommonly-used utility spell is best kept on a scroll. For your first bits of money, just grab a bandolier and stock it with (e.g.) Obscuring Mist, Air Bubble, Resist Energy, Floating Disc, and anything else that sounds occasionally useful but not common enough to spend a slot on.

Fifth and finally, while the arcanist is very flexible, it helps to pick a main role for yourself early on; for instance "summoner" or "party buffer" or "crowd control" or "artillery". That does NOT mean that you stick to that exclusively, but it does help you focus your feats and items into that area.
For instance, as a summoner you probably want Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning, and Summon Good Monster as soon as possible; whereas if your main focus is artillery then you instead want (e.g.) Burning Amplification, Empower Spell, and Flumefire Rage.
While you can change your spells around every day, if your party has some good frontliners I find it very useful to avoid direct-damage spells entirely, and instead use crowd control and summons to make the enemies' life into a nightmare.

HTH!

This is why I recommend the Chaos Reigns feat instead of this arcana, as it gives you a 100% chance of a beneficial ability (namely an extra attack, assuming you're in a form with no hands), and it also works in True Arcane Bloodrage. HTH!

If you can think of a way to make this strength based I'll go with that.

That's easy. You drop the feats Finesse and Roaring Falls, and make strength your highest ability score, that's it. This lets you e.g. get Enforcer at level 1, Dazzling Display at 3 and Equipment Trick at 5, meaning your primary shtick comes online MUCH earlier, and you have feats left over for e.g. Step Up, Blind Fight, Dimensional Agility, or Hasted Assault.

Id rather not be reliant on frostbite to get my strategy going. Also everybody and their grandma runs a dervish dance dex magus I wanted to try something different

I get that, but instead of playing a Magus who spends a feat on dex-to-damage, you're playing a Magus who... spends another feat on dex-to-damage. That's not very different in gameplay, now is it?

I suggest either going strength-primary and work from there, or focusing on maneuvers/debuffs and not getting dex-to-damage. $.02

Assuming you're good-aligned, I would take Devoted Blade over Maximize.
If you're going to use Enforcer, I'd add the Hurtful feat.
I'd drop Maximized Spellstrike because it's much too expensive; you have better things to use arcane pool on. That also means you don't need Quick Draw. Take a look at the Magus guide for alternatives.
Finally, you don't need Mock Gladiator if you're using the Frostbite spell.

Because slashing Grace does not work with spell combat. Don't you think I would know to use that if that were the case?

You are correct, but Dervish Dance does still work, and is cheaper than Roaring Falls.

The most glaring thing I see here is that you're getting Flamboyant Arcana for--I assume--the sake of Opportune Parry and Riposte, but the Kensai is still a 2/3 BAB combatant.

With his enchant weapon ability, the free enchantment on black blade, and possibly Heroism, the Magus has absolutely no problem using Parry & Riposte.

but with kensai having reduced spells, how many spell combats are you actually using in a given day?

As many as possible, using pearls of power and infinite-use cantrips as necessary. Because action economy wins combats, and Spell Combat is the strongest AA the Magus gets.

You don't actually need to hard focus on touch spells. I mean, it's a good tactic but you have several other options.

And, note that instead of spending several feats on Swordplay Deflection (which is a weaker version of Opportune Parry and Riposte), you can simply take the Flamboyant Arcana which gives you the full Parry and Riposte and for much cheaper.

Here's a Magus guide, HTH.

Due to the fact that the archtype loses it's ability to enchant its weapon in exchange for increased mobility?

No. Arcane Strike is not worth it for any Magus because you have so many other things to use your swift action for. In addition to what Derklord said, there are also good spells (like Deivon's Parry) and items (e.g. Armor of Spell Storing) that have an action conflict with Arcane Strike.

The better deal is Weapon Specialization (a flat +2 damage for no action cost) and even that isn't a great feat on a Magus.

.seth wrote:

i like a rime metamagic frostbite with the enforcer feat.

Enforcer only works w melee attacks that deal non-lethal

And the Frostbite spell deals nonlethal, so that works out well.

A Hexcrafter Magus with Frostbite, Rime Spell, a Cruel Weapon, and Enforcer can inflict 4 status effects on multiple strikes. 5 if you use a spell-storing weapon.

I'd like to add the Hex Strike feat to the mix.

And flight hex at 5 is good for being early, but you can pick up regular fly at level 7, which is fairly close, and then use spell recall to recast that spell as much as reasonably needed.

By level 7, you can use the Flight hex 7 times per day plus unlimited feather falls. How many pool points do you have again? :D

At level 13, yes, you retrain your flight hex to e.g. Ice Tomb (infinitely-spammable good-DC non-mind-affecting save-or-lose).

AGAIN, the point is NOT that "spell recall is bad" but that "hexes are also good". Who would have thought? Witch is a popular class, did you really think that all hexes suck all the time? Why?

No its not that its complicated i'm just trying to see how many archtypes can work with bladebound. I considered staff magus with the arodenite sword training trait, but that takes way too long to come online and everything else aside from hexcrafter had diminished spellcasting.

Sure, but Spellblade effectively has diminished spellcasting because you need to use your top-level spells to get a level-appropriate force dagger.

I'd go with Elemental Knight, Hexbreaker, Spell Trapper, or Spire Defender (none of those are amazing, but they're all hands-down better than Spellblade).

And honestly hexcrafter works better with jistkan artificer since it works with runic charge

Sure, plus the Hex Strike feat. But really, many archetypes benefit from getting the Flight hex, or Ice Plant, or Gift of Consumption.

Also as far as I can tell, you can't use scrolls with spell combat or spellstrike.

Indeed you can't.

So obviously the intent of this archetype was to go into two weapon fighting to compensate for the loss of spellstrike

Spellblade is one of the worst archetypes for the Magus, so I'm not sure why you're going with that. If you feel spellstrike is too complicated, you can ignore everything about it and just make it act like two-weapon fighting (via Arcane Mark or any touch attack cantrip), OR ignore everything about it and use spell combat (full attack + non-touch spell of your choice) as often as possible.

Yes, like Fireball to the face; or a defensive buff like Mirror Image; or at low level a Daze cantrip. Casting as often as possible is good tactics.

Here's a Magus guide to give you more suggestions.

Yeah I'm actually astonished how much people downplay spell recall,

That's because scrolls and Pearls of Power are pretty cheap and have largely the same effect. Spell recall is solid but getting Flight hex at level 5 is also solid.

A muscle magi vs. a dex magi is doing the exact same thing but the numbers are just a little bit lower. There just isn't enough difference to justify having worse numbers to a lot of people.

So the Str magus has 18 strength, and spends his first two feats on Weapon Focus and Arcane Strike. The Dex magus has 18 dex, and spends his first two feats on Finesse and Dervish Dance.

By third level, Str Magus has +7 to hit and deals 1d6+5 damage (1d6+7 on standard-action and opportunity attacks), whereas Dex Magus has +6 to hit and deals 1d6+4 damage. Arcane pool and spells are the same for both. Incidentally, the Str Magus is also substantially better at climbing and swimming, and saves money since he doesn't need a bag of holding to carry his gear.

So the Str Magus has slightly better numbers than the Dex Magus, and by your own reasoning this means there is no reason at all for anybody to play a Dex Magus, ever. Math, people. It shows that the more-offensively-oriented build deals slightly more damage, there's a shocker.

What even is this mythical dexterity magus build anyway? What are you having to give up? How are you getting by without at least some moderate strength for carrying capacity? How many levels would it take to actually be online with all of the things you are trying to do?

That's actually a great question. Looks like BNW has a Schroedinger Dex Magus in mind :D

MrCharisma wrote:

This is blatantly untrue. You can get DEX-to-damage with the Agile property or by multiclassing.

The agile property requires a +1 weapon to enchant, which means its a +2 weapon, which means you can't do it till level 6-8.

Level 6, based on the default character advancement rules, and the default rules for magic item availability in cities. If your campaign allows crafting, you can get it at level 5; and since you mention PFS as a datapoint, in PFS you can absolutely do this at level 6.

And to offer an alternative, if you play an unarmed Magus (there's like three archetypes for that, or any race with a claw attack, or just take the IUS feat) then you can use an Agile AOMF, which is only 4000 gp and available at level 4. That sounds like a reasonably low level to me.

So, you can get dex-to-damage with dervish dance at level 3, and you can get dex-to-damage without dervish dance at level 4. That's not a big difference. And as MrCharisma points out, you haven't established that a Magus needs dex-to-damage.

Ok, so they can chose the OTHER 18-20x2 one handed weapon , because the way the class is set up there's no point in using anything else.

That's nonsense.

Off the top of my head, you can make a viable Magus with

• (a) bastard sword for higher base damage;
• (b) whip or another reach weapon;
• (c) gun with Eldrich Archer archetype;
• (d) staff with Staff Magus archetype; or
• (e) natural attacks with the Monstrous Physique line of spells.

Both of your examples were spells that generally have to be cast in combat to be effective, and magusflurry or not, are taking the place of a powerful offensive spell in both your action economy and your spell prep.

So what's your point exactly? If you invest spells or feats or whatnot in defense then you have less spells or feats left to invest in offense? Yes, that's what it means to have options :P

I don't think I've seen protection from arrows used.

Good for you. I have, in fact, seen that spell used. That certain players have used that spell is objectively true. Again, I'm wondering what your point is.

It sounds like you haven't actually played a magus before. It doesn't matter if you are strength or dexterity based, there are plenty of cases where casting some non-attack spells is just the superior strategy. And these cases happen most adventuring days.

Yep. He also appears to have missed that some spells can be cast well before combat starts and thus don't "burn" any actions. Like, it's pretty normal to start your day with Defending Bone and Protection from Arrows (and at higher levels, Overland Flight), or to have minute-per-level spells last all through the next combat.

Self Buffing character "Alright, I cast this defenseive spell, this one to power up, this one so I'm faster and...."

Bob The barbarian "Hey Buffy, you want this +1 sword the dead orc dropped? We're looting here"

Magus: let's do both! Swift action to make my sword flaming and shocking, spell combat for Mirror Image to defend myself, 5'-step up to enemy, attack twice.

Or conversely: swift action for a defensive buff (e.g. Spell Shield, or arcane bloodline), spell combat for Frostbite, 5'-step up, attack three times.

That's the beauty of spell combat: you don't have to choose whether to buff or attack, you do both.

Did you use monstrous physique for your larger forms?

For this character, it was Abyssal bloodline.

I don’t know why so many people think Magus is a dex class… sure 1-7 level is rough as a Str magus due to being limited to light armor until 7th,

It's not nearly as rough if you use defensive spells like Shield and Mirror Image. Like, on turn one you do spell combat, cast Shield, 5'-step to an enemy, and attack (AC 19 at level one sure looks good to me). And at low level it's a big deal that the Str Magus has two additional feats available to use on whatever he wants.

Sure, they become better as they level up (because that's what leveling is for) but the Str Magus is entirely viable from level one.

You can surprisingly make a decent magus blaster. Comfortably get in close for hitting groups of enemies with cone attacks. Spell strike is strong, but it’s not like you have to do that every turn.

And also this. You can make an effective Magus that's int-primary. It's not a common build but still a solid one.

Having played two str-based Magus characters all the way from level 1 to about 15, I can attest that they are highly effective. One of them went str-primary to save his feats for other things, the other because he likes enlarging himself and that works better with strength. Neither of them wears medium or heavy armor, so the lower movement rate was never an issue.

Sure, their AC is a few points lower than a dex build; they deal with this by casting Shield or Vanish or other defensive spells on the Magus list. The point is that you have options and "the highest possible AC" is not the only option.

If you want, you can also play an effective Magus without using Shocking Grasp. Nothing wrong with that spell, of course, but it is hardly the only way to play a Magus. With all the archetypes and arcana and spells available, it should be no surprise that it has options (e.g. use debuffs, or maneuvers, or other touch spells, or just flaming+frost+shock+bane on your main weapon).

Obligatory link to the Magus guide that has a lot of suggestions on different ways to play one :)

-- All PCs are in reach. Do you target the squishy caster with all ten of your tentacles, or do you spread the damage out across the party?

At level 16, in a dungeon campaign, in a boss fight? Heck yes, crush that squishy; this is not the time to pull punches, and the character has had plenty of levels to mitigate his squishiness.

-- Do you turn on power attack (increasing the likelihood of PC death), or do you leave it off (increasing the likelihood of dramatic but non-damaging grapples)?

See above; on the first turn, take down the caster hard with power attack; on subsequent turns, grapple away.

Do you stuff your grapple victims beneath the inky waves, cutting off line of sight and blanking the spell?

Obviously.

-- You’ve decided to reflavor your lich kraken’s beak attack as an inflict wounds by simply changing the damage type to negative energy. When your player asks for a save to half, do you allow it?

No, and this has nothing to do with level or whether it's a bossfight. If an attack doesn't give a save, then reflavoring it also doesn't. Just don't name it after the "inflict wounds" spell.

-- The wizard casts control water, attempting to lower the water level and leave the kraken high and dry. You didn’t plan out ocean depth ahead of time. Does the wizard’s plan work as intended?

Yes; this is clever thinking on part of the wizard, and should be rewarded (e.g. the kraken can no longer put the party beneath inky waves).

$.02

So I’ve been looking at the Kensai Magus lately and considering using it to make a Katana wielding spellblade type of character… but after really taking a hard look at what it trades out I’m left here trying to figure out how exactly this archetype is even meant to be functional…

Kensai is basically an archetype for high-level play. At low level, its bonuses are either marginal or easily duplicated by feats, and diminished spellcasting really hurts. At approx level 11 and up is where kensai really shines.

I'll add that for a Magus focused on greater trip, or on two-handed weapons, I would not use kensai as other archetypes do a better job. I also prefer the Flamboyant arcana over a swashbuckler dip, as my main goal would be the Parry & Riposte ability (this also means you aren't restricted to a rapier). On the other hand, kensai makes a good 2-level dip for other classes, as it basically gets you a free EWP, weapon focus, and TWF-like ability.

However, this is news to me that you can 5-Foot-Step before performing a Full-Round Action such as TWF or Spell Combat.

Yes. What's more, when doing spell combat you can do the 5-step between the attack and the spell.

I also wasn't aware that I had to roll a Concentration Check EVERY time I used Spell Combat

You don't, and I'm really not sure where you're getting that from. You roll concentration when you cast defensively (such as because you're in melee), but with smart usage of 5-steps you usually don't need to cast defensively.

Not missing a step, I just failed to format my sentence properly. I meant to imply that Arcane Pool points could fuel the Forgotten Trick OR the Grit/Panache/Luck pool (as though Ki)

Yeah, but how does Ki fuel GPL? I'm not seeing a feat or archetype that does that, except Kata Master (which can only "treat ki points as panache points for any swashbuckler deed gained through this archetype").

VMC Magus to get Flamboyant Arcana (parry/riposte) and Ki Arcana to link your Arcane Pool to your Ki Pool to your Grit/Luck/Panache Pool in various ways. Fueling Forgotten Trick (rogue/ninja) trick gained through Archaeologist talents with your Arcane Pool or Grit/Luck/Panache pool is hilarious.

This sounds really cool but I feel I'm missing a step here? Ki Arcana lets you use arcane pool and ki pool interchangeably, but I'm missing how you link your ki pool to your GLP pool? Kata Master archetype only does that in a very limited way...

if I choose to play a full spellcaster, I’m choosing it to be a spellcaster… when at level 1 you have so few spells that you are forced to either cantrip spam for 1d3 or use a play like a different class

Yes, pinging Ray of Frost every round is rather boring and not very effective. But what you're overlooking here is (1) school or bloodline powers, (2) cheap scrolls, and (3) combat cantrips that aren't 1d3 damage, such as Daze and Disrupt Undead.

Also, if you're a wizard, apply those knowledge skills. A decently-played wiz or sorc has no problem at all contributing at level one; and in the right combat, spamming Daze or Disrupt Undead can easily make you MVP.

That said, I do agree that level 1 should only take one or two sessions. Level up quickly.

The spell Mage Armor was basically designed to improve a wizard's AC from "terrible" to "below average"; and in that, it functions well.

However, in the past decade of gameplay, I note that any and all shapeshifter druids, animal companions, and high-dex classes use it to very cheaply add +4 to AC, with no check penalty or max dexterity, all the time. Given that a +4 bracer of armor costs 16000 gp (AC-boosting ring or amulet is even more expensive) and a 1st-level pearl of power costs only 1000, I'd say the Mage Armor spell (or a wand thereof) is undercosted.

Imho it does make the game less fun if PCs are unhittable or near-unhittable. And pretty much all the "unhittable" builds I've seen at mid level use Mage Armor.

I'm curious what other people think of this, and how to deal with it? Making it self-only doesn't help because characters can just UMD it. I'm tempted to give it a max dex of +4 and make it block any class abilities that require you to be unarmored; that way arcane casters can still use it as intended, but everybody else it's more in line with other options.

+4 AC from mutagen, +4 AC from fighting defensively +1 AC from dodge.

Bear in mind that fighting defensively only works when you're, you know, fighting. If you're using hexes or casting spells (without attack rolls) then you don't get a benefit from fighting defensively.

Since the thread uses a scale of 1 thru 10, it makes sense that some classes, for some ratings, will end up at the very low end of the scale. Simply put, one of the full casters will end up being the worst at debuffing, so this class would score something like 1-3. The scale isn't working right if everything ends up at 7-10 of the scale.

if we want to go with the whole "shamans have a bad base spell list thing"

Spotted Owl has made a list of good debuff spells in the google doc; do you feel there are spells missing, or spells listed that shouldn't be there? If we want to measure the quality of (e.g.) the shaman spell list, at least where it comes to debuffing, it makes sense to base it on that tab.

The catch is that evil eye / misfortune is fairly weak compared to the spells in that tab; so this is not somehow the gold standard of debuffing. Just having access to evil eye doesn't make a class good at debuffing; it needs good class features and/or a solid spell list for that.

Deserves to be up with witch,

Shaman appears to have a WAY worse spell list than the witch, in addition to having worse hexes, so I don't understand why it would deserve to be at the same rating as witch.

Any inclination to compare 6/9 casters (in a separate thread of course) after finishing the 9/9 casters?

Certainly.

A new thread may even get some new interest, because I'd wager that a ... certain user ...'s repeated aggressive posts have likely chased away most contributors to this thread.

if it ever becomes visible).

Your double post is visible.

It is certainly true that several oracle mysteries don't have enough good revelations available to fill all 20 levels.

You can take a prestige class that advances your spellcasting but not your revelations; for instance, Stargazer.

Note that I added a couple mass-control spells in italics, since I'm unconvinced they belong here. Maybe confusion & fear? I'll check later.

Right. I thought about this a fair bit, and concluded that any spell that does not leave a lasting cloud/wall/pit/whatever on the battlefield is "debuff" and not "battlefield control", meaning that Fear and Confusion belong in the debuff tab (and for that matter, I retract my earlier statement that Glitterdust is BFC; it belongs under debuff as well).

Unless you want to combine the two and call that "control" (because both BFC and debuff are a form of controlling your enemies), in which case I suggest dropping the debuff tab entirely and merging the two. This does mean that multi-target control (pretty much all BFC spells) is almost always better than single-target control (most debuff spells), and I'd have to adjust some of my ratings. To be fair, I have these two separate in my Magus guide as well, but there is certainly a case to be made for combining them.

One of the martial PCs was riding on horseback (which he didn't usually do), and attacking an enemy hobgoblin also on horseback. Since this was an exciting duel and they were close in initiative anyway, we decided to make our attack rolls at the same time... and promptly both rolled a one.

At this point I ruled they both overextended as the horses veered apart, and they both fell in a muddy tangle between the horses. I did give the PC an easy roll to land on top and he quickly dispatched his enemy, but not after some mutual embarrassment.

Anyway, let's take a look at the classes' debuffing ratings.

First, there's the tab with debuff spells in your google doc. It is important to check what these spells do, because that's what class special abilities are competing against. In terms of spell lists, it's pretty obvious that wizard/arc/sorc > witch > cleric/oracle > druid/shaman. This could suggest a baseline rating for spells of 6-8 (wizard), 5-7 (witch), 3-5 (cleric), 1-3 (druid), and class features can add to that. The gold standard of debuffing is probably the Slow spell, which is multitarget, NOT mind-affecting, and for a single save messes you up for the entire combat. Incidentally, an oft-overlooked fact is that the Evil Eye and Slumber hexes ARE mind-affecting.
I've made some suggestions for the list last week; I note that you've added my suggestions for level 1/2, but not those for 3/4/5. It's fine if you disagree with my ideas but for the sake of discussion, maybe you could tell us why?
I'm assuming that by "control" in these documents we mean "battlefield control" (BFC), as in putting clouds, walls, pits, and other obstacles on the battlefield. There is some overlap between control and debuff. Since most BFC spells are long-lasting area effects (and an obstacle regardless of saving throws), it's often more effective for casters to focus on BFC instead of debuffs.

Arcanist: 6-8. Seems fair, but the description suggests that the arcanist really needs the void school's Reveal Weakness ability. But that ability requires a swift action AND a pool point AND a decent charisma score, so it's just not an option for most arcanists. So I'd remove that remark, and since his spells are excellent, I'd rate arcanist 6-8 based on spell choice alone.
Wizard: 7-8. Similar enough to arcanist, but can probably go up to 9 with certain school abilities (such as Void, which he can use much better than an arcanist can). Frankly, if you specialize in casting Slow (and you're the only class that gets Slow at level 5, and it's not on the cleric or witch list) then you could probably be a full 10, even if it's a bit boring to play.
Sorcerer: 6-8; again seems fair, and again he can go up to 9 with certain bloodline powers such as Fey, which is a no-save nausea effect.
Druid: 3-8. The druid actually has a large amount of debuff spells, but most of them are not particularly good, for instance because they're poison-based (which is too slow-acting to use in combat). I frankly don't see how this can rate so high; I'd call it 1-4. Druids do a lot of things but debuffing isn't really one of them.
Oracle: 4-9, but this rating relies on one specific build only. Based on spell list I'd give them 3-5. The dual-cursed archetype is indeed one of the very best debuffs in the game (as an immediate action, no less). But the time mystery is strong overall but not so much in terms of debuffs, except for the once-per-day Erase From Time. I'd give this 3-7, noting that (just like the druid) the oracle list has a fair amount of mediocre debuff spells on it.
Cleric: ?-9. As with oracle, spells give him a 3-5 rating, and I don't see any noteworthy domains for debuffing, but variant channel is a good choice for that. I'd go with the same 3-7.
Witch: 10. To rate the witch, we should compare her Hex feature to the spellcasting that other classes also get. From this, we see that Sleep and Ice Tomb are stronger than most debuff spells, but Misfortune and Evil Eye are weaker than most debuff spells on your list. This means that the witch is a full caster for good reason and should use spells and hexes instead of just hexes; but most witches I've seen in practice rely almost exclusively on hexes, and that means the witch's lower bound is lower than you might expect. This gives the weird situation that a witch spamming Slumber all day is so strong that it bothers other players or GMs; but a witch spamming Evil Eye all day is not nearly as effective as a decent wizard or variant channeler. So I'd rate the witch 4-10; while she can be an excellent debuffer, in practice most witches just aren't.
Shaman: 8-10. The same principle as the witch, except his spell list is much, much worse; and he doesn't get major hexes (such as ice tomb). I'd rate this 2-6.

HTH!

It's not so much about evil, but the question is whether ratings should account for highly specific (or highly campaign-dependent) builds. Just because I can make a wizard that's effective in melee (and I have) doesn't mean that I disagree with its rating of 1 for melee in general.

Kurald Galain wrote:

Yes, but Ascetic Strike (the third feat in the line) is the one that lets you use monk unarmed damage for your chosen weapon.

Not for Monks, because we have explicit official ruling that "the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as" "effects that augment an unarmed strike".

I note that you're linking to Archive.org and that this text is not present in the current FAQ. Looks like the ruling you're talking about has been revoked.

or conversely, Flying Kick to an enemy, 5'-step back, then attack with your reach weapon.

Good point. I thought it was that you can't 5-step after a move action, but turns out you can't do it after any movement.

Kurald Galain wrote:

This part, at least, seems not a very good use of feats. The DC Kama normally deals 1d6; the Ascetic Strike feat will, at levels 12 thru 16, increase your damage by +2 on average.

At those levels, that's simply not a lot compared to what you get from high strength, party buffs, and/or magical items. I suggest looking into different feats.

Style is a prerequisite for Ascetic Form.

Yes, but Ascetic Strike (the third feat in the line) is the one that lets you use monk unarmed damage for your chosen weapon. And that one is not so good.

Even without the Ascetic feats, you could still attack with your reach weapon, 5'-step in, then attack with a punch (plus any style strike); or conversely, Flying Kick to an enemy, 5'-step back, then attack with your reach weapon. Note that Flying Kick specifically places you adjacent to your target enemy, anyway.

I want the Ascetic line to apply Monk Damage to my attacks,

This part, at least, seems not a very good use of feats. The DC Kama normally deals 1d6; the Ascetic Strike feat will, at levels 12 thru 16, increase your damage by +2 on average.

At those levels, that's simply not a lot compared to what you get from high strength, party buffs, and/or magical items. I suggest looking into different feats.

There are no other good options for the first two bonus feats; maybe deflect arrows?

Check to mix with other archetypes maybe? I'm pretty sure you can get Power Attack or a style feat for a monk bonus feat somewhere.

I'd say your spending substantial resources on being able to pounce (flying kick) with your kama, but you probably don't have to. Wielding a reach weapon and having lunge means you can usually full attack anyway, and don't need flying kick. This means you can drop Weapon Focus, Ascetic Style, and Ascetic Form. And I'm not sure why you'd want Dodge; so overall this makes the dwarf a viable option.

The one thing missing from this build is an option to enlarge yourself, because enlarge + reach weapon + combat reflexes + tripping is a very good combo. I recommend dipping one level in cleric/druid/inquisitor with the Plant(Growth) domain, or maybe taking some levels in Eldritch Scion Magus with the Abyssal bloodline.

Oh, and if you're a dwarf, be sure to take Glory of Old and Steel Soul! HTH.

I have a general question on the "critters" category: How do we want to handle undead? On the one hand, controlling undead is clearly a powerful effect, but on the other hand most campaigns don't work with evil characters.

For the sake of this list, I would leave them out. Controlling undead is a highly specific build that just doesn't apply to most campaigns.

I added a tab to the spreadsheet, Debuff Spells. Please call out anything significant I missed or spells I added that shouldn't make the cut.

I'd replace Ray of Sickening (attack roll AND saving throw for a minor penalty, that's really not a good spell) by Mudball (blindness, and the target doesn't get a save until later). Also, Ear-Piercing Scream is a good addition.

HTH!

There are also these magic items:

And don't forget the Platter of Exquisite Feasting!

Bear in mind that Forgotten Trick takes a standard action (which rather defies the point of Vanishing Trick, which normally takes a swift action).

I already got it in a good spot, i just want to know if the build would be better off as Dex or Str. Because while i know dex probably would be better,

You are correct, dex would be much better. A switch hitter has no need of a reach weapon.

Also, take Vanishing Trick at an early level; it's one of your better options for both defense and getting sneak damage on ranged attacks.

That said, for an utility caster switch hitter, the Magus is probably a better pick.

I wouldn't worry about infinite rages by drinking; just dip one level of barbarian or bloodrager, and it won't last you all day but it will count as a "powerup mode" for two or three combats where it really counts.

I'm not convinced Calm Stance works with Flumefire Rage, as the former says you get no benefits from raging while calm; I suppose this one depends on your GM. However, the Furious Spell metamagic feat is a viable alternative that boosts your damage more.

Finally, I wouldn't use crossblooded because the loss of spells known really hurts, especially on a multiclass character. Try to do something with Draconic bloodline plus Spell Specialization instead; Tattooed archetype may help here. HTH!

Eldritch Scion Magus is a notable downgrade, and the standard Shocking Grasp playstyle benefits a lot from using a high crit range weapon, something a DSS user loses out on.

Come now, if you still think the standard/only way to play a Magus is to spam Shocking Grasp all day, then you're at least twenty sourcebooks out of date. Having an additional attack each round (from spell combat) is one of the better things you can do with cha-to-hit, and action economy wins combats.