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OK, so, people want more customization and conservative minded folks like myself are extremely concerned about making Eidolons too powerful, punchy, or worst, min-maxy.

So let's talk about an Eidolon "Archetype" concept idea that has very little to do with combat.

The first thought here is that this concept could be a replacement for Expert Unarmored at level 3 (hoping that gets moved to level 1), with a feat option for an additional "Archetype" down the road (8th?).

What IS an Eidolon Archetype in this concept?

The Inspiration is the Barbarian Feat "Raging Intimidation".

So, in this case we'd have...

Terrifying Eidolon - Your Eidolon gains the Intimidating Glare skill feat. At 7th level, your Eidolon Gains the Battle Cry skill feat. At 15th level, your Eidolon gains the Scare to Death skill feat.

Make sense?

Apply the same thing to other obvios skill feat chains, like -

Aerialist Eidolon - with (3rd) Quick Jump, (7th)Wall Jump, (15th)Cloud Jump

And then also some of the other big themes, like stealth, deception, negotiation, etc.

In theory, you can describe the mechanics once and then have each Archetype be one line describing the associated feats.

It helps solve the issue of getting Eidolons access to skill feats, differentiating them from each other, and customization without skewing numbers or granting access to problematic abilities.

So, through discussion with other posters I believe we identified a pretty significant pain point for some players and I figured I could create a place to seperate out further discussion on the topic to see who all agreed, and what ideas people had for addressing it.

Specifically, in this case, the callous is Boost Eidolon (and by extension, Reinforce Eidolon).

Discussion on various topics had focused on largely different play experiences thus far, and one of the focus points was Action Economy.

I do not prioritize Boost Eidolon - I consider it less important to my rotation, and therefore I had a great time playing around with my superior 4 action economy without significant limitations in what I was doing.

For other players for whom damage is a higher priority, the perceived need to cast Boost Eidolon was essentially removing any perceived benefit of an increased action economy.

This was negative enough that even a reduced benefit was perceived as a favorable exchange.

Due to the setup of the class, a perceived action advantage is, imo, likely to be essential to making a companion "feel" good for the summoner.

Some ideas to make these currently "mandatory" actions play better-

Make them function as stances, requiring a single action to establish and allowing the summoner to switch between them as a further action (possibly with enhancements through feats like free switching).

Turning them into focus spells with enhanced or varied functionality (concerns were raised with any math fixers competing with other focus options).

Rolling the benefits into the base Statline of the Eidolon, even at a reduced rate.

While I personally don't have an issue with the current state of this action economy, i can certainly empathize with the idea that its reducing the enjoyment of others in the class - especially if its reducing the element for them that I think helps define the class.

If anyone else has input, here's the thread.

In thinking on people's desire for things like a lower level Flight evolution, one of my main concerns is on duplicating functionality that is essentially currently free.

A feat that offers limited flight ability at level 6 or 8 allows for addressing desires for representing wings, but mechanically its only a marginal gain over the ability to navigate vertical obstacles offered by a climb speed.

But what if taking it gained you additional marginal utility once Evolution Surge would normally make it redundant?

For an illustration relative to a Evolution that currently exists, consider this. What if Climbing Evolution had a clause at the end that said this.

"When you choose to grant your Eidolon a Climb Speed with the Evolution Surge spell, the climb speed is equal to the creatures speed." As opposed to half or 25, whichever is lower.

Thus, a lower level Glide feat (such as one of several offered up as examples of limited noncombat flight at level 6 or 8) could have a clause that, for example, said "When you use the Evolution Surge focus spell to grant your eidolon a Fly speed outside of encounter mode, the duration is 10 minutes. This duration immediately is reduced to one minute if you enter Encounter mode."

I think Evolution Surge is already a very awesome core mechanic for the class, and there may be a lot of potential for allowing it to grow and become more interesting based on evolution feats influencing its potential effects.

Any thoughts?

First session actually running a Summoner tonight. I'm generally pretty positive so far, but I think things went pretty well in general.

General Observations -

The ability to roll skill checks twice isn't just two chances to succeed, in some cases its a chance to accomplish extended goals twice as fast.

Two chances to succeed is also good. Nothing wrong with Search x2 while exploring and looking for secrets and traps.

Lots of good little things for social encounters. For one, organic assists on Social checks due to the Eidolon implicitly participating alongside you are good.

For two, an Eidolon is an expendable distraction. We needed to distract some guards, and option 1 was having my Eidolon engage them in conversation while we snuck around them, and then the Eidolon could walk away, disappear around a corner, and then be re summoned at our position. Option 2 was to have the Eidolon be a distraction, lead the guards off and then vanish around a corner. Distractions like this are... pretty commonly viable in roleplaying games.

Combat Notes -

Published adventure, no encounters where enemies had more than three foes on the field at the same time. More or less no way for them to bypass our front line past the fighter, unless they wanted to spend extra actions moving around the encircling foes. I felt pretty safe.

Angel Eidolons are as truckish as expected against foes with weaknesses to Good damage.

Damage in general was fine, if not spectacular.

Because the encounters we had were over larger areas with a need to maneuver, I didn't run into a static rotation for my Eidolon. I had to actually maneuver, which meant that things weren't that boring and I had to actually find room to either move or Boost, which I think helped with its lack of dynamism.

The eidolon proved to be just as tough as any martial character in the party, and moreso because I had defensive options.

When I did get hit (crit in fact by a Babau), because I'm an Angel Summoner I just healed it - and Babau's hate that. Hillarious.

*******

Polling of the table -

No one felt like the Summoner wasn't 'two characters'.

There were some discussions of capabilities, and the general feeling was that most advantages were reasonably offset.

Evolution surge for speed got a nice 'oh crap' from the GM when it meant that a wide gap at the start of an encounter was closed in a single action as opposed to two.

The rest of the table rated the Eidolons damage as 'good' as opposed to 'fine'. Part of this was because we fought a demon, but in general the Eidolons damage was not unimpressive.

Everyone agreed rolling many skills twice was good, but balanced by having complex and unfocused stats in many cases (IE, the Eidolon's Wisdom means its not CRAZY on perception).

The fact that I retained my spellcasting potency, in large part, was considered impressive.

*******

Random Question?

What happens if an Eidolon is permanently petrified? Was never really in danger of it, but it was something that could have happened in theory.

*******

All in all, it was a good session and I had a good time. I had no issues with the Eidolon's general combat potency or numbers, actions in general felt good, but I also didn't run into the situations where I was really hampered by not being able to use a spell with Act Together or where I was locked into a full 'boring' combat rotation for my Eidolon - the big turn where I was standing in place and MIGHT have done that was the one where I Healed and mentally scarred a Babau.

So while I still have concerns about boring play, I simply didn't run into that tonight.

Eidolon was well characterized. Party members were starting to 'get her' by the end of the session, and no one had any trouble determining my purple-pink lamia/naga styled variant Lilim was an Angelic/Celestial muse.

So... still pretty positive, as things seemed to live well up to expectations.

Let's Talk about Evolution Surge, one of my favorite things about the 2E Summoner playtest.

On a schedule, my Eidolon gains access to several abilities which cover a range of things that are situationally appropriate, which may not be worth spending permanent resources on. I see it less as adding new features, as "turning on" eidolon features that are situational or not always needed.

Its such a potent mechanical and narrative option.

And every single Summoner/Eidolon has access.

While it isn't currently an issue (presumably not all Eidolons will have Darkvision, the answer to the question "Can your Eidolon see in the dark?" Is always an action away, through whatever justification you like.

Scent as an imprecise sense is hugely flexible, and can be described as pretty much any exotic sense when the difference between that sense and scent isn't material. Or it can be flavored in interesting ways, like my muse themed Eidlon being able smell peoples talents - or lack thereof.

Swim speed on demand? Especially appropriate for those eidolons with serpentine forms or which "Don't need to breathe anyway, due to composition."

Who doesn't like a burst of speed with +20 movement? Plus - the descriptive options are endless. My angelic lillends lazy demeanor vanishes, and she strikes with a viperish burst of speed.

At 5th level the third level heightening adds a couple more potent options.

If I need my Eidolon to ferry me about, the increase in size may be less about duplicating an Enlarge spell than about my Eidolon and myself sharing a single, larger area as she ferries me about.

A climb speed is essentially a fly speed when it comes to bypassing many obstacles related to height, or ascending and descending relative to obstacles. Wings or limited flight are easily represented several levels early here in narrative.

As a fifth level heightened spell, we get two more options.

Everything about large continues for Huge, except that the area threatened by the eidolon becomes truly enormous. At this point, it can control the battlefield simply by filling up space, and is a threat to entire encounters at the same time.

As well, proper flight opens up one single spell level up, on a rechargeable resource available every encounter for those eidolons where enabling Flight is thematically critical.

I dont know that this Focus spell has gotten enough positive press yet, because it really does a ton for the Summoner and enabling Eidolon concepts. If you view it as a completely free (well, mostly free) way to declare new Eidolon traits at will ("Wink, remember my Eidolon can sense life energy, wink.") It gives the class unparalleled narrative power with mechanical hooks attached.

Edit: I just totally realized that you could have Evolution Surge be the vehicle for sharing Skill Feats with an Eidolon by adding a single entry to it.

What other minor additions would be reasonable, but do heavy lifts for the class?

A lot of people want more to do at level 1. I personally think that this should be kept simple, so here's a thought on how to mix it up but keep things relatively simple for creating your eidolon but also add some flexibility.

In this idea, you make three main choices.

Your Eidolon base Type. This works exactly like it currently does. You get everything here except...

Your Attribute Array - you get three choices. Note that Con is ignored as it currently does little, and should probably be the same for each. Mental stats are assumed to be assignable or can be fixed.

The Brute. This one prioritizes Strength (18), Dexterity (16), and has weak mental stats (12, 10, 8)

The Graceful. This one prioritizes Dexterity (18), and Strength (14) to a smaller degree and chooses a superior mental stat (14, 10, 8)

Reduced strength for damage partially mitigates the AC advantage

The Sage. This one has ok Dex (16), Low Strength (10), and good mental stats (16, 14, 8)

Then you choose your attacks -

All In - d10 bludgeoning, piercing or slashing

Flexible - d8 B P or S, d4 agile BPoS

Finesse - d6 finesse BP or S, d4 agile finesse BPoS

Mystic - d6 finesse fire, cold, electricity, acid, negative or positive damage, d4 thrown 20 feet of the same type

*****

Otherwise, the current rules apply.

There would probably be a low level feat that opened up another attack category, or added traits to one you already have.

How big of a step is this for those looking for more options at level 1, while keeping things minimalistic?

This is a lower impact rebuild than something like Verzens recent rebuild, that attempts to keep a similar spirit of choice.

The idea here is for an additional free, or low level available Conduit Focus Spell.

******

Open Conduit - Focus 1
Free Action
Trigger - You use a conduit cantrip with a duration.
Duration - 1 minute

You use a surge of power to force your conduit spell to remain potent for a longer period of time.

For the duration of this spell, the effects of your conduit cantrip do not expire. If you cast a new conduit cantrip, the effects of the new conduit cantrip immediately replace the effects of the previous cantrip.

Heightened (5th?) - When you cast a new conduit cantrip, the previous cantrips effects remain in until your current turn ends, in addition to the effects of the new cantrip.

******

The idea here is to reduce the action economy issue people have with Boost and Reinforce Eidolon and remain future proof for other similar abilities.

I dont want to throw away Boost Eidolon, because I believe it could be made interesting by adding feats to allow it to extra things, like add temporary weapon traits to your eidolons attacks (as discussed elsewhere, things like Reach, Trip, Versatile (including elemental), etc.) And otherwise be made fun.

Similarly, I think you could add things like elemental resistances to Reinforce Eidolon to make it more compelling as an action.

Thoughts?

So, in general I'm against giving Eidolons everyone elses toys and allowing them to be monster Barbarians, or Fighters or Monks or what have you.

But then I remembered, wait, anyone can get most of that stuff via Multiclassing anyway. Anyone can already steal Rage, or Inspire Courage, etc. via multiclassing! That's not unique to anyone!

So uh yeah, we could totally use the multiclass and archetype availability levels as a benchmark for making abilities to Eidolons.

...so, yeah, all aboard for giving Eidolons cool stuff at approximately the same level anyonr else could take it via multiclassing, with essentially the same restrictions.

Raging, Hunt Preying, Spellcasting Eidolons with more than two slots - seriously, why not? Anyone with literally zero class features could accomplish that via multiclassing anyway.

Magical Evolution could probably be a four feat chain that follows the progression for Spellcaster dedication, Basic Spellcasting, Expert, and Master regarding spell slots. Add in breadth too.

I dont see how this actually could be broken, if its using claa feat resources.

Anything I'm missing with using "Multiclass Equivalent" as a reasonable and desired standard?

Mark, if you read this - is there some developer side reason a Eidolon shouldn't be able to pick up something like full Multiclass Spellcasting progression thag I am missing? If I'm spending class feats on these resources and I'm literally comparing multiclass wizard and magical evolution, shouldn't they be roughly equivalent in effect?

I get that currently the investment for magical evolution is lower (and the spells scale slightly better), but would something like Spellcasting Breadth (+ lower level spell slots) be reasonable?

Some of the ideas I've seen floating around seem to want very different things out of summoner, to the point that I think its worth discussing what limited options we have to potentially differentiate core summoners via a "thesis" equivalent for the class to kindof set things apart for each of them. Here are my proposals - feedback? Thoughts? Criticism?

I'm calling them Bonds for now.

Intimate Bond - You have a particularly close bond with your Eidolon, giving you the ability to allow you to act through your Eidolon in a limited fashion. You gain the Lend Expertise action.

Lend Expertise - 1 action - Choose one of your Skill Feats. Until the end of the turn, your Eidolon may take actions as if it had that Skill Feat.

Summoning Bond - Your bond with your Eidolon allows you to draw other, related creatures from its home plane. Add the Summon Monster spell to your Spell Repetoire in addition to your other spells known. So long as your Eidolon is not manifested, you may spend a focus point to cast Summon Monster as a Focus Spell.

The Summon Monster spell works like Summon Animal, except that the creature summoned must share a trait that matches the base type of your eidolon and its alignment.

Sythesis Bond - Your bond with your eidolon manifests only through Synthesis with your own body. You gain the Synethesis feat, but cannot manifest your Eidolon otherwise. You can speak and interact with others normally while using Synthesis, allowing you to take actions without the manipulate or interact traits normally. You gain the assume control action.

Assert Control - 1 action - You can take actions normally, even while using Synthesis. You gain the benefit of your Eidolons attributes and abilities for these actions.

...thoughts? Concerns?

So, I have my GM's permission! My Extinction Curse Cleric is going to rebuild a Summoner, and we're going to see if I can hack it and replace the Cleric as the party healer and religious type, while adding another body to the front line with significant impact.

Who is the Summoner? - She's a tiefling devotee of Nocticula, the Redeemer Queen and an eccentric artist and performer. She's also currently the team Face and Medic, and the circus's upcoming star Animal Trainer. Its a number of hats, but someone has to wear them.

Who is the Eidolon? - A newly minted servitor of Nocticula, this Elysian outsider is minted in her creators image as a evening-violet angelic being, with traits associated with Nocticula's demonic origins. (Angel eidolon, attacks are a manifested dagger (d8 slashing) and a barbed tail (d4 piercing, agile).

The party is level 6 at the moment - the plan is to take Heal, Dispel Magic (as a general magic troubleshooter), Calm Emotions and Command as my four spells. The offensive spells are only on-accuracy for the level for this level, but the plan is to mostly rely on Heal for most of my spell slots anyway since I'm replacing a Cleric.

For feats, I'm taking Medic Dedication at level 2 as I think its one of the stronger single feats for increasing healing output, on top of my 4 spell slots worth of healing magic. For 4th, its Tandem Move and 6th is Reinforce Eidolon for its 'half a shield' and damage resistance to give us a Frontliner that's ever so slightly tougher than the rest of the party.

Capabilities - That gives me four solid Heal spells per day at maximum output, plus Medic Enhanced Battle Medicine. I've got the Charisma to be even better as our party Face, and I don't lose out on skills... I actually think I'm slightly better, especially since my Eidolon can now pick up my slack on Athletics and use Aid for pretty much anything else I'd like to do. Since the Eidolon share's my proficiencies, pretty soon that Aid is going to be hitting higher bonuses via Critical Successes.

Plus I'm adding another character to the battle line to distract, draw fire, and provide flanking and attacks. While my Eidolon lacks class feats, she hits as hard as anyone else in the party as we don't have anyone swinging a two handed or larger weapon - and for the moment, Reinforce Eidolon is an improvement on everyone else's AC unless they have a Shield Raised.

Growth - At 8th, I may pick up Ranged Evolution to kindof clear up the Battle Line - alternatively, I could reconsider either Reinforce Eidolon and take Magical/Greater Magical Evolution to give my Eidolon some spellcasting flavor - the Eidolon would make a much better origin point for Bless than my character herself.

Past that, I haven't decided where I'm going to go. I could start to buy out of Medic via skill feats, and pick up another Dedication - possibly going back into Beast Master like I am currently. That's rough on Action Economy, but more bodies is more better? And there's still plenty of time for the 4 feats needed to get a 'maxed out' animal companion.

I'm extremely excited to try this build. It works very well for the image I've created, and doesn't feel like its really lacking in capability - its not going to be as good as a Cleric healer, but even assuming that its Spellcasting resources are almost all dedicated toward Healing, the character has plenty to offer in a scrap via Eidolon and Skills.

White Room theorycraft doesn't see a lot of issues now, other than maybe a crowded front line - we'll have four people fighting up front this way. Thats another pair for flanking though...

Its never been my experience that enemies are as much of a threat as some have said towards the back line casters - foes have to use actions getting there, going around my allies. Many foes don't even have enough tactical awareness or intelligence to consider this course of action... but, it hasn't been an issue so far, I don't see it getting worse now. I could be wrong here.

Anyone have any thoughts? Anyone else have an concept they'd like to share, along with how well the current implementation in playtest supports it - or maybe what it would take to make it feel better.

So, one of my players for an upcoming campaign has started asking questions about this actually really flipping cool archetype. Basic-est question first...

When using Eldritch Shot, does the range of the Spell matter? Or just the requirement in Eldritch Shot that it require a Spell-Attack roll? Is it conferring the entire resolution of the spell onto the results of your attack roll?

The APG familiar ability does change a familiar to match its masters size, right?

I question this only because it says "... transforming into a humanoid of your ancestry with the same age, gender, and build of its true form..." and I can conceive the idea that someone might argue that "build" includes size...

Though I'm 99.99‰ sure build does not include mechanical size.

This 5th level spell lets you target 1 object up to 80 bulk...and move it up to 20 feet. Unlike other spells, I the word "unattended" is not included in the spell description or target text. What happens when a player targets a creature's armor? Can you target a worn or carried item? If you do, I assume RAI you should either make a spell attack vs reflex/fortitude resistance or the affected target(s) would get ref/fort saves vs caster's spell DC.

Ok, so I'm looking for opinions and input on adjusting Cleric Towards being more of a spellcaster and less of a combatant, or at least getting something back for giving up the potential for combat in exchange for something in return.

Specifically, the aspects of cleric I'm wanting to lose are-

3/4 bab to 1/2 bab (and the associated d8 to d6 hitdie).
Armor Proficiency
Good Fort Save.

As the above are the aspects I see as the 'combat' traits of the class.

I have seen the Theosophist on d20pfsrd,but my DM is concerned it gets too much for what it loses...

So I'm looking for input on what a fair, and more importantly conservatively balanced exchange for the above Attributes would be.

Thanks.

So, I was looking at the new White Haired Witch archetype, and it seemed pretty neat at first...

The general mechanical-concept is to take the Prehensile Hair Hex and greatly expand its abilities and utility with some cool thematic elements... however in practice, this isn't the case.

Why? Unlike Prehensile Hair, there is no provision for using Intelligence for anything but Damage Rolls (and then, 1x Intelligence instead of 1.5x Intelligence if your Prehensile Hair is your only natural attack) and triggered Grapple checks from the not-Grab grablike ability.

This means you're needing a good strength to make use of your primary class feature, because you need to hit via Str+Half BAB for any of the supplemental features to work, but you dont even get to recieve your strength on damage rolls... that's governed by Intelligence. Hope you can afford good scores in both.

As well, as written, Pull is a near useless ability, as there is no provision for not moving a grappled foe adjacent to you when the grapple begins, which I believe is part of normal grapple rules, right? Seems like you should probably not move the opponent when initiating the grapple, similarly themed to how the witch doesn't gain the grappled condition herself.

Anyways, I was hoping for clarification as to whether this is the intended functionality (which sadly would imply that one of the stronger class features in the game, Hexes, would be replaced by an ability which is arguably less useful than one of said Hexes with the same theme), or if it may have been intended that attack rolls should be Intelligence based as well which may have been ommited or assumed, which would make the archetype more viable.

If anyone else wonders the same, lets hit some FAQ buttons.

So, one of my players in a campaign just hit Gunslinger 8 last night, and took Secret Stash Deed as a bonus feat. The following text is relevant;

"Spend 1 grit point while in combat to recover either 1 bullet and 1 dose of black powder or 1 alchemical cartridge from a hidden stash on your person that you had, until now, forgotten about. If the bullet and black powder or the alchemical cartridges are normal shot, you do not need to pay for the ammunition. If you want to recover any other kind of ammunition, you must pay for it with gold pieces from your character's wealth."

So... there's nothing stopping you from producing a Burrowing Bullet out of your pocket. Or a +1 whateverI'mfightingbane bullet.

Correct?

If so, this feat is actually really cool, though kindof... weird, on a world level.

"So I get that you picked it up somewhere and forgot about it, but who exactly is making all these specialty bullets?

My initial reading of the feat 'Feral Combat Training', specifically the following part of the feat;

"Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."

Was that the feat allowed you to make your flurry of blows attacks with the selected natural weapon, as if the natural weapon now counted as a monk weapon or had the 'monk' special quality.

However, another recent thread called this into question; instead, it was claimed that what the feat did was allow you to use your natural weapon in addition to your Flurry of Blows, effectively modifying the final line of Flurry which explicitly disallows such.

So I was hoping I could get a confirmation (or lots of people to hit a FAQ button) so as to clarify whether or not the feat allows you to either,

A: Count a natural weapon as a 'monk' weapon. (Which seems like if it was the intent, it would have been trivial to say that instead of 'with your flurry of blows class feature')

B: Gain an additional attack after flurrying with your natural weapon.

Or did I miss an official clarification on this elsewhere?

Ok, so as I was looking through part of Ultimate Combat, I came across the following;

"Rage Powers: Any barbarian who meets the powers’ prerequisites can select and use the following new Rage powers. Totem Rage powers grant powers related to a theme. A barbarian cannot select from more than one group of totem Rage powers; for example, a barbarian who selects a beast totem Rage power (see the Advanced Player’s Guide) cannot later choose to gain any of the dragon totem Rage powers (any Rage power with “dragon totem” in its title), unless she has the totem warrior archetype."

Last I had seen on the boards, consensus was that this archetype was entirely flavor, and did nothing. Was there clarification or errata I missed?

Should there have been?