Kirche's page

The take 10 system really isn't as hard as most people try and make it out to be. It doesn't take any longer than the action normally takes, but you can only do it when you're not threatened or distracted (although there are class features that allow you to take 10 even when threatened for certain skills).

All it means is that you are choosing to accept a roll of 10 on the die (average) instead of actually rolling it. You still add or subtract whatever modifiers are applicable for the skill in question.

SKR has explained it all in great detail to avoid confusion:

Mynameisjake wrote:

Let's try a different scenario. Guard is at the gate, taking 10 on Perception checks, maybe he's the PC, maybe he's the NPC. He has one rank and a class skill bonus for a 14. A Rogue, also may be the PC or the NPC, is trying to sneak past, taking 10 on his Disguise skill, with 1 rank and a class skill bonus for a 14 on Disguise skill checks. Since they are both putting equal effort and have equal skill, then the odds of either one succeeding should be 50/50. But if the guard sets the dc, then the Rogue succeeds 100% of the time. If the Rogue sets the dc, then the guard succeeds 100% of the time.

And that's why take 10 is a convenience for the player, but shouldn't be the default or even the optimal scenario. If you only have a +4 bonus, you probably shouldn't be taking 10 because in a typical scenario (like this one, where your target's bonus is probably similar to yours) you're going to fail half the time. Take 10 is for things like "can I just take 10 on my jump check? I only fail on a 4 or less, let's save the time rolling and not risk me failing to jump a 2' gap because of a bad roll," and "can I just take 10 on my Disguise check? I have a +4 modifier, I don't want to roll a 1 and give the guy a crappy disguise just because of a bad roll."

If you're worried about failing because your opponent may be better than you, don't take 10, make the roll. It takes the same amount of time in game whether you roll or take 10.

It's really no different than being a lazy player with a +9 Stealth rogue who thinks he can take 10 on a Stealth check past a guard because he thinks the guard is just some +2 Spot loser... except he doesn't know the guard is actually an important NPC with a +10 Spot. You take 10 when you believe an average roll will succeed; if it turns out that belief is wrong, you'll suffer the consequences.

And more clarification

The purpose of Take 10 is to allow you to avoid the swinginess of the d20 roll in completing a task that should be easy for you. A practiced climber (5 ranks in Climb) should never, ever fall when climbing a practice rock-climbing wall at a gym (DC 15) as long as he doesn't rush and isn't distracted by combat, trying to juggle, and so on. Take 10 means he doesn't have to worry about the randomness of rolling 1, 2, 3, or 4.

The rule is there to prevent weirdness from the fact that you can roll 1 on tasks you shouldn't fail at under normal circumstances.

I'm not an athlete, but I can easily to a standing broad jump of 5-6 feet, over and over again without fail. It doesn't matter if I'm jumping over a piece of tape on the floor or a deep pit... I can make that jump. With a running start, it's even easier. If I were an adventurer, a 5-foot-diameter pit would be a trivial obstacle. Why waste game time making everyone roll to jump over the pit? Why not let them Take 10 and get on to something relevant to the adventure that's actually a threat, like a trap, monster, or shady NPC?

Let your players Take 10 unless they're in combat or they're distracted by something other than the task at hand. It's just there to make the game proceed faster so you don't have big damn heroes failing to accomplish inconsequential things.

And finally:

Taking 10 requires only as much time as making one check.

Do yourself a favor and learn the correct rules for this mechanic. It'll save you a lot of headache if you ever play a PFS game or at a con where people will expect the proper rules to be used.

<Prospective GM> tells you 'Make sure you all have the same expectations I do. Never know when a guy might rule that taking 10 sucks :P'

I like him already.

works for me

Thanks, but you didn't really answer my question. Also, it's a 3/10 chance of failing due to the negative modifier. Either way, let's take death out of the equation then - there may be an acrobatics check or some other deus-ex machina life-saver there. Just based on whether or not you make the jump or fall, could you please address my scenario and questions?

Just to be clear, I'm going to present a common use-case for the take 10 rule and I'd like your opinion on it.

We're walking through a cave and come across a deep chasm five feet across that's so deep it disappears into darkness. There isn't any other way around so we decide to jump across. I haven't put any ranks into acrobatics and am wearing armor so my acrobatics modifier is say -2. The DC to make a 5' jump is normally 5, so this is a situation where I don't think I need a terribly high roll, but if I roll badly I would die. There's no enemies or other distractions nearby so I carefully approach the edge, measure the distance in my head, and make the jump across. Mechanically, I took 10, making my final result 8. Great! I made it.

However, under your suggested rules, in order to do that I have to stand there by the edge of the chasm for a full 12 minutes studying it before I can jump? And if we're ambushed by goblins while I'm studying the chasm I can't do anything but continue studying the chasm?

Keep in mind taking 10 is not an auto-success like taking 20 can be. While we can guess, we don't ever know what the DC is - that's only for the GM to know. What if in my previous example the other side of the chasm was actually made of ice or somehow otherwise slippery or wet? What if the other side was an illusion and the chasm was actually 10' across? Just because I took 10 doesn't give me a success there - I only actually have an 8 on my acrobatics check. So if one of those reasons increased the DC to 10 instead of 5, I'd still fall to my doom in the darkness below. I actually needed to roll a 12 on the die in order to succeed, so my decision to take 10 is what killed me.

Like you would know! You've known me for the space of about 1/2 a minute - hardly enough time to pass judgement on me as being hard-headed.

:p

Nah, he just likes standing in the way of halflings running through the woods. Ouch!

I'd certainly be happy to see this keep going if we can find someone, as I only got 3 posts in before it died.

If one of you players wants to step up and lead this, I'd be fine with that too.

And then there was the one about the halfling that ran into the cauldron...

initiative: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (2) + 3 = 5
perception: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (15) + 3 = 18

As soon as one of the creatures comes into view, she points a finger at it and a stream of freezing air and ice flows towards her target.

Casts Ray of Frost
ranged touch: 1d20 + 4 ⇒ (17) + 4 = 21
cold damage: 1d3 ⇒ 1

The girl looks up and yelps, looking just as terrified of the half-orc as she is of whatever was chasing her. She backs up against the cauldron and points in the direction she came. "Giant wolves!"

The halfling groans and reaches up to feel her head, then suddenly opens her eyes and yelps in alarm, scrambling to get to her feet. "Look out! They're coming!"

I admit that I had to look it up. I won't say what it is in case someone else wants to redeem a hug from the lovely Oladon.

I haven't seen that particular movie, and it strikes me that I really should.

Haha, the thought crossed my mind when I saw where the GM is going with the cauldron. Don't worry, though - we've worked out how I'll be joining the party. It'll happen soon enough...I hope.

Happy to have found a home! Thanks guys!

Here's the character I had in mind if you'd care to see her background (in profile). She's a halfling sorceress and both of her parents have fallen ill from the mysterious sickness.

Stats should be complete - in profile.

Dazed 2/3, 42/70 hp, grappled

-------------------------
1d20 + 13 ⇒ (4) + 13 = 17 - Reflex
1d20 + 13 ⇒ (12) + 13 = 25 - Reflex
Dazed 1/3, 1/70 hp, grappled

-------------------------

Dazed 2/3, -7/70 hp, grappled

Kirche falls prone, and though the touch attack misses, she is dying. Even if she stabilizes she has no way to get back to positive HP before you (or the tentacles) finish her off. Well done.

Hey, at least you made the dispel check - that's what's important

1d20 + 11 ⇒ (3) + 11 = 14 - spellcraft

Also has no idea what's being cast, so she uses Dispel Magic

1d20 + 10 ⇒ (8) + 10 = 18 - dispel vs DC 21

and fails to counter the spell.

1d20 + 13 ⇒ (20) + 13 = 33 - reflex
1d20 + 13 ⇒ (5) + 13 = 18 - reflex

Ouch! Kirche is dazed!

1d20 + 11 ⇒ (16) + 11 = 27 - spellcraft

Kirche attempts to counter the incoming spell.

1d20 + 10 ⇒ (19) + 10 = 29 - Using dispel magic for DC 21

She manages to stop the spell just as she smells the first hints of poison gas, and retaliates with a spell of her own.

Will save DC 32 to resist.

Such a fate, to slowly freeze to death encased in ice. I honestly didn't expect you to fail your reflex save, and was mostly using the spell for guaranteed entangle, making your successive spell casting more difficult. I just got lucky. Also, you can have a significant boost to the counterspell if you also have the exact same spell. Not guaranteed, but at least a lot more likely - so it makes it worthwhile to go for the less obvious or more obscure spells.

So that's 1-1 using the spell duel rules. Tie breaker?

1d20 + 11 ⇒ (16) + 11 = 27 - Inititative

1d20 + 11 ⇒ (5) + 11 = 16 - Spellcraft

Not wanting to lose sight of her target, Kirche quickly attempts to counter the spell as it's being cast.

1d20 + 10 ⇒ (11) + 10 = 21 - Using dispel magic for DC 21

Having foiled her opponent's attempt at becoming invisible, she casts an offensive spell.

Ice has 30 hp and DC 25 str check to break

1d20 + 11 ⇒ (14) + 11 = 25 - init

You're up.

1d20 + 11 ⇒ (11) + 11 = 22 Fort Save 1
1d20 + 11 ⇒ (1) + 11 = 12 Fort Save 2
1d20 + 11 ⇒ (17) + 11 = 28 Fort Save 3
1d4 ⇒ 2
1d4 ⇒ 3
1d4 ⇒ 2
1d20 + 16 ⇒ (10) + 16 = 26 Reflex save 1
1d20 + 16 ⇒ (17) + 16 = 33 Reflex save 2

Round 1: 1pt con damage.
Round 2: 3pts con damage. HP loss plus fireball damage does me in. GG!

In retrospect, going invisible wasn't a good choice for me since you had the dust. That stuff's crazy! I gotta say, even though I lost this was much more fun than the previous battles. Go again?

1d20 + 16 ⇒ (4) + 16 = 20 reflex 1
1d20 + 16 ⇒ (3) + 16 = 19 reflex 2

And...my luck ran out.

1d20 + 15 ⇒ (16) + 15 = 31 - reflex 1
1d20 + 15 ⇒ (8) + 15 = 23 - reflex 2

Lucky!

The black tentacles wither away just in time for Kirche to be struck by a fireball seemingly out of nowhere. Luckily, she manages to avoid the worst of the blast and shrugs off the other effects.

The spell grapples me, which means I take 1d6+4 damage
1d6 + 4 ⇒ (1) + 4 = 5

Kirche struggles against the tentacles to cast a spell
1d20 + 19 ⇒ (17) + 19 = 36 - concentration

Having lost her opponent and lacking in recourses to find him, Kirche tries to make herself as difficult to spot as possible.

1d20 + 9 ⇒ (3) + 9 = 12 - stealth. I'm sure I'll take a huge penalty for this but running out of options. Add +1 if my spell is successful.

Yeah, I was aware of that particularly annoying feature of the dust, which is why I haven't attempted to do anything about it. Pretty much the only thing I could do would be to cast fairy fire on you or something - but I'd have to already know where you are and I don't have the spell anyways.

Green vines spring out from the dirt, grabbing at anything within reach.

Entangle, DC 19

The air gets suddenly very cold just before great hailstones fall from the sky followed by sleet and heavy snow.

3d6 ⇒ (3, 5, 3) = 11 - bludgeoning damage
2d6 ⇒ (4, 5) = 9 - cold damage
Map link for convenience
blue area is heavy snow and sleet. -4 on perception, area is considered difficult terrain. I believe the concentration DC is 5+spell level.

Without saying a word, the halfling girl suddenly vanishes.

This is a spell-like ability and not susceptible to counterspell.

1d20 + 11 ⇒ (18) + 11 = 29 - initiative

My thoughts exactly. At least between the two of us it's not so one-sided.

1d20 + 11 ⇒ (15) + 11 = 26

Looks like I'm up first this time. Gonna go with what works.

Kirche casts feeblemind, DC 28, -4 penalty on save.

1d20 + 13 ⇒ (11) + 13 = 24
1d20 + 13 ⇒ (11) + 13 = 24

Phew.

Looking a bit scorched from the blazing inferno, Kirche stands her ground and mumbles some arcane words as she fixes an intense gaze at her opponent.

Casts Feeblemind, DC 28. You have a -4 penalty on your save.

status - HP:51/70

1d20 + 11 ⇒ (4) + 11 = 15 - initiative

Wow, great start. You're up first.

Neither Quicken or disruptive metamagic feats increase the save DC of the spell. Unless I'm mistaken, MM should be DC 18 regardless of metamagic effects.

1d20 + 14 ⇒ (9) + 14 = 23 - will save vs DC 26

Not that it matters. GG.

1d20 + 11 ⇒ (11) + 11 = 22 - initiative

Wrapping her cape around her tightly, Kirche motions with her head towards the forested area and starts trudging through the snow in that direction.

Apathy wrote:

Now the two of you are protected form the bitter cold, what is your plans? the other halfling seems to be waking! (thats you macreel)

Foggy turns to his red-headed companion. "Shall we explore outside?"

Kirche nods at her companion and steps outside, bracing herself for the wind.

I'm not entirely sure what to do about updating my character for final rules, as the concept she was built around isn't quite as viable now due to the removal of at-will bloodline powers.

Kirche paces restlessly back and forth through the cave in an attempt to keep herself warm, occasionally conjuring small licks of flame on her fingertips and trying to draw whatever heat she could out of them.

To Foggy: "I suppose it would be foolishness to ask if you're a druid? We need to warm up...I can burn things easily enough but need something that burns if we're to actually benefit from it."

Kirche wrote:

"Sorry, didn't mean to be rude. I was just looking for something we could use to start a fire - I'm freezing!

By the way, my name's Kirche. What do you make of this place?"

"It is c-c-cold," Foggy agrees. "Some sort of cave. Looks like that's the only way out." Foggy points to the tunnel. "Shall we have a look around the bend?"

Honored DM, Your description mentioned rags, but not weapons. Do we have them too, or must we find them? Oh, and Foggy's key.holy symbol. Has he got it?

Kirche nods and gestures at her companion to lead the way.

Satisfied the sleeper is ok, Foggy turns his head to follow Kirche as she searches the cave. "Quiet are you? What are you doing?" He shivers and almos itnvoluntarily begins to look about the cave for something warmer. He casts light if the cave is too dark to see clearly.

"Sorry, didn't mean to be rude. I was just looking for something we could use to start a fire - I'm freezing!

By the way, my name's Kirche. What do you make of this place?"

Kirche looks at the other halflings questioningly, but says nothing. First item of business is warmth - she looks around the cave for anything that looks like it might burn, unfortunately she can't see a thing in the darkness.

Perception (1d20-2=-1)

As her mind starts to clear, she remembers her spells and casts Dancing Lights to better search - unfortunately she still can't find anything.

Perception (1d20-2=8)

I wanna burn things!

I also posted that I'd prefer the snow environment - I'm far too weak to swim.

I should be ready to be checked - I'm headed for snow.

Halfling sorceress reporting for duty.

10 pt buy has turned me into an evil min-maxer.