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Any guesses when this might happen?

Considering that the Fall 2024 Errata happened in December (end of business Q4, which I'm guessing is the Fall Quarter), that would mean Spring 2025 Errata would likely happen at the end of business Q2, which places that at the end of June?

It would line up in terms of "hype".

May is Paizocon 2025 and July is BattleCry! release. Spring 2025 Errata releasing in June would be a hype-filler between these two events.

(Also, don't think we've done it recently, but thank you Maya for your hard work in the background?)

Now that the dust has settled a bit following the Fall 2024 Errata (which is mostly, pretty good), I wanted to bring up the RM Battle Oracle as it suffered collateral damage in the Sure Strike errata. Considering the markedly improved forum activity (thanks to Maya!), I feel like it’s possible to have some solid discussion that’ll be helpful to both players and the dev team.

I do ask that we limit conversation to the REMASTERED Battle Oracle and try not to derail the conversation with Legacy Battle nostalgia or “Weapon Trance/Remaster BO sux, just play sorcerer/cleric/animist!” We’ve heard these complaints ad nauseum, and they’ve never added anything of value to the conversation other than trying to shut it down. If you feel the need to rag on the Battle Oracle, please make your own thread. Thanks!

The RM Battle Mystery seemed pretty clear on what Paizo intended:

•It works as a DEX/CHA or even a STR/DEX subclass (STR/DEX/CHA with the variety of 3 boost CHA ancestries).
•Weapon Trance was meant to encourage that “forced Strike”, but with a strategic opt-in. (Paizo clearly WANTED this Mystery there for those who want to be a “Gish Oracle”.)
•Sure Strike synergizes with Weapon Trance, to make those Strikes land. You give up an action and a spell slot, but you have a high chance to do something impactful while also “regaining” that action normally lost to sustain.
•Sure Strike synergizes with Bespell Strikes as it is one-action and highly increases Oracle’s accuracy to make Bespell Strikes matter.
•Sure Strike synergizes with Telekinetic Maneuver as it doesn’t work with regular Athletic skill checks, but does work the TK Maneuver being an Attack roll.
•Sure Strike also worked with spell attacks, like Needle Dart/Divine Lance so that the Oracle could still be impactful against distant enemies without swapping to a non-upgraded weapon.
•Weapon Storm comes online when your CHA catches up (in a STR/DEX build).
•Oracular’s Warning and Battlefield Persistence helped with lower initiative and countering the cursed saves.

I think you can see the problem: RM Battle Oracle’s functionality and identity is founded upon the 4-slot spontaneous Divine casting Battle Oracle using Sure Strike as much as possible. This isn’t really possible anymore and also severely damaged the uniqueness and mechanical identity.

I think this presents an opportunity to solve the main problem with Battle Oracle: Weapon Trance. Weapon Trance “works” because we have a way to hedge our turn in our favor while using the benefits the class affords. This doesn’t work out well now. And it’s hard to improve Weapon Trance as it is a poachable focus spell (and we saw the uproar over Exemplar Dedication granting easy free damage for martials). Some ideas:

•Make Weapon Trance sustain on ATTEMPTING a Strike.
•Make Weapon Trance a Free action when first cast.
•When you sustain Weapon Trance, you can Stride, Step, or Raise a shield as a free action.
•Or, when you sustain Weapon Trance, you gain a +1 circ to AC.
•When you cast Weapon Trance, you can shift a Simple weapon into a Martial weapon, as you would a shifting weapon. When you lose Weapon Trance, you shift the weapon back to its original Simple form.

Anything to make it feel like an incentive ti use Weapon Trance and not a punishment.

My big question for the dev team (If Maya might be able to see this):

•What IS the dev team’s vision for this subclass? It was clear before (Sure Strikes for Weapon Trance, spell attack cantrips, Bespell Strikes, and TK Maneuver), but unfortunately, it got gutted in the recent Errata.

•Is the current Weapon Trance still satisfactory design to the devs, or meeting their intentions? As of now, picking any other Oracle can be a better “Battle” Oracle (such as Bone Oracle grabbing Object Memory).

Meanwhile, if anyone wants to share on their experiences of weal and woe as an RM Battle Oracle, I’m sure that’ll be valuable! Overall, I find the subclass is fine in the 12+ range where many feats can resolve a lot of issues. I actually had to pivot into a new build that uses Dual Weapon Warrior as Double Slice is functionally the same as Sure Strike in accuracy (two actions, roll twice). But I don’t think it’s good if you need an archetype to fix a subclass.

And again. Thank you Maya for all the hard work you do. I’m 100% sure you’re really busy too. I hope this articulates some concerns and needs of dev communication.

First Off:
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I'd like to congratulate Paizo on releasing Player Core 1 and GM Core remaster books! It was a lot of work in a short time and we have seen your sweat and tears delivering a protected TTRPG! Thank you for your dedication!

At the same time, we do understand that the time crunch meant not everything got to go exactly as planned. There just wasn't time and maybe somethings were good enough. One, in my opinion, the Wilding Steward.

Issue?
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Many of the patrons really nail the intent of the Witch in the remaster. (Applause!) It really emphasizes the familiar as a central part of the class, giving a fun niche compared to other casters. They have strong hex cantrips to make up for their reduction in spell slots. There is a LOT of internal cohesiveness in the patrons. Also, the patrons' flavors fricking drip! Kudos! However, the Wilding Steward is one that struggles the most to meet these things.

Compared to the other Primal patron, Silence in Snow makes sense with the level 1 kit. Clinging Ice reduces enemy speed, Familiar of Freezing Rime adds difficult terrain, and Gust of Wind knocks down enemies while making it difficult to approach you. In short, the Silence in Snow Witch's kit allows the Witch to continue doing their casting from afar and making it difficult for enemies to get to them and take them down. It's defensive, but in a tactical/utility way of "demobilization".

The Wilding Steward doesn't have the same internal cohesion. Wilding Word makes it more difficult for an enemy to harm you, while also makes it more susceptible to attacks/saves if it does. And I think Wilding Word is so much better now that it can affect everything! Familiar of Keen Senses doesn't really work with Wilding Word (or most of the time), even though it IS a fantastic detector (Overseer aberration specific familiar?) And Summon Animal/Veggies would normally draw fire anyway with or without Wilding Word being active. It's a bit hodge-podge of some interesting ideas, but not united by any core mechanical role or identity (though I love the flavor).

I think I have a nice direction to go!

Proposal:
=========

Wilding Word
Success: Change "harms you" -> "harms you *or your minions.*"
Critical/Failure: Change "damages you" -> "damages you *or your minions.*"

And that's it! I think it lands a fun little role for the Wilding Steward - that of the "Packmaster". It would work well with the granted Summon Animal/Veggies spell.

Some Reasons:
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-Lesson of Wild Speech Mechanical/Narrative Cohesion: Wilding Word + Summon Animal/Veggies has some serious narrative flair. The power of the patron over nature is ever present as you summon creatures of the wild, your own primal voice intimidating enemies, and punishing those who fight against the patron's pawns (you, your familiar, and your summons).

-Iconic Control: The witch that has minions to do her bidding is iconic. The Wicked Witch of the West sends creatures after Dorothy. The White Witch and her army of creatures. Maleficent being aided by nature. I don't think it's odd that when the hero enters the domain of a witch that the creatures around spy for her. Though not a Witch, Kira from The Dark Crystal, calling on critters to take down the Skeksis Scientist.

-Unique Patron Niche - Primal: Silence in Snow is definitely lined up for the blaster primal patron. However, Primal is more than just blasting. It has environmental manipulation, healing, summoning, and battle forms. If a Common "Spirit Guide-like" specific familiar was available, the Wilding Steward would fit perfectly as that more physically-oriented witch that uses those other Primal spells for support.

-Great Use for Certain Feats: Certain feats are sort of "extra" or "trap" feats that don't truly serve a good purpose when compared to other things at their level, but would fit this witch. Rites of Convocation to ensure the Wilding Steward has their main gimmick spell slot available and Witch's Charge (if it was tweaked to always include your minions).

-Give Familiar Purpose: As Mark Seifter highlighted, put that familiar to work! Having it take hits to trigger the hex can be something! (Especially if you select the defensive familiar route...which Spirit Guide specific familiar fits perfectly...)

Inspiration:
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I always liked the Wild Patron, but it didn't really offer anything that the Winter Patron already did. It barely had a usable hex and Summon Animal/Veggies was already accessible, but Gust of Wind is a great spell. However, that changed when the Spirit Guide [Rare] specific familiar was released early this year (2023).

I don't think this was on any of the developers minds, but it fit perfectly with the Wild Patron. With no hex to use, the Wild Patron could focus on commanding the familiar. The Primal spell list had the perfect things for the Spirit Guide - Magic Fang and Moon Frenzy. On top of that, Enlarge/Elemental Gift/Barkskin/Haste/etc.. At level 11, you could have your familiar cast Magic Fang on itself as you cast either Enlarge/Moon Frenzy. However, the Spirit Guide needs the Witch to have a high STR (for attack) and a high DEX (for AC).

But it worked out. Primal spells accesses heal spells (and some useful buff spells). The granted spell is a summon spell which you could summon a Guard Dog. With the Spirit Guide, my Witch could easily use itself and the specific familiar to qualify for the Guard Dog's pack attack. Later on, grab Beastmaster and enjoy being the Packmaster.

Did it overshadow other witch builds? No! It wasn't broken, but it was creatively fun!

It overall showed that a more physical Primal Witch can be fun, doable, and fitting!

<<Warning>>: Playtesting though, I do want to share something that was "tension" with the summoning Witch. Summoning guzzles up the whole turn. This made it difficult to get the hex off and have the summon appear and immediately be a threat. It requires some planning and setup to do (such as getting a hex on the enemy you want to target and possibly buffing your familiar with Rousing Splash, then having your familiar Independent Stride to the enemy. Then, on the second turn - you need to have Cackle to sustain Wilding Word as you summon on the enemy. This is why I don't think the simple errata would be gamebreaking. It's arguable, it may hardly change anything at all. However, I still think it is a fitting functionality.

The Primal spell tradition is pretty diverse. And honestly, the Wilding Steward fits perfectly for that battle form witch, which is also very iconic! The Green Witch (Narnia), Maleficent (Sleeping Beauty), Madam Mim (Sword in the Stone), Kuzunoha (Japanese folklore/history), and various antagonists in Chinese films.

Conclusion:
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I feel like this simple change of adding **9 words**, could have incredible and fun ramifications that are far from being overpowered! I do have other thoughts (such as the familiar flanking fits better on Wilding Steward), but that's for another time.

Thanks again and regardless of what happens, still pretty stoked for what 2024 has in store!

(Side note: And if it isn't too much trouble, I do feel that the Spirit Guide familiar could become a core option in Core 2. They are far from powerful, but they are pretty neat and fun.)

Overall, the Remaster Witch news was super exciting!

I love a lot of the flavor of the patrons and lessons! I feel like I’m reading “Betrayal at House on the Hill” board game! I really love the patron familiar abilities. Faith’s Flamekeeper, The Resentment, and Spinner of Threads are very fun abilities and really pushes the kind of narrative they’re supposed to fulfill.

But the Wilding Steward patron? Huge concerns.

1) Wilding Word - The flavor text of the Lesson of Wild Speech concerns me. If it’s reliant on targeting an animal/plant/fungus with a curse for attacking you. It was extremely situational to use before and if that remains the case, then the Wild Witch will end up without a lvl. 1 iconic class feature (the hex cantrip). Unless the intent is constantly assault your familiar with the Wilding Word hex, which…is nonsensical and ridiculous from a narrative standpoint (you’re using your patron’s power…against your familiar…)

2) Familiar of Keen Senses: It’s way too niche of an ability. It’s unreliable in scouting because you may not have a valid hex target. In combat, it’s highly situational and dependent on how the encounter is built.

3) “Just Start at Level 2”: We can get around this by grabbing Lesson of Protection and the Blood Ward focus spell. But…that means the Wild Witch has to spend a class feature AND a focus point to activate a level 1 iconic feature while scouting? Or is a Wild Witch just not supposed to have a familiar ability and hex cantrip? I don’t think an iconic class feature should be locked out until they spend a class feat the next level to use half of their iconic subclass abilities.

4) “What a nice theoretical situation”: The Wild Witch had a situationally useful hex cantrip for a very situational familiar ability to trigger.

Honestly,I could be wrong. The Remastered Wilding Word hex cantrip could actually be awesome when it’s revealed. But I am skeptical. I’m not sure what fantasy the Wilding Steward is supposed to represent…because I’m not seeing it narratively or mechanically.

One solution, Wilding Word (at least the current version) needs to be targeted by The Resentment and brought low (preferably behind the shed and shot) and a new hex cantrip replace it. It’s out-stayed it’s welcome over the last 2.5ish years.

I don’t how much time is left before the Remaster Core 1 needs to be sent to the printer, but I think it needs a serious review in terms of the hex cantrip and the familiar ability.

However, I could be a smooth-brain who doesn’t see the genius and how “unrestrained” the Wilding Steward patron is.

Edit: Also, no Wood/Metal spell for Lesson of Elements?

Sorry for another topic.

However, I was under the impression for the last 6 months that the Thaumaturge does not require using "Trick Magic Item" for scrolls. I also commonly see it mentioned, so I figured bringing it to the official forums would be a way to help solidify it.

During a discussion on Scroll Thaumaturgy vs. Scroll Trickster, I delved into the rule. I now believe I was VERY wrong: Thaumaturges DO require using "Trick Magic Items". Taking from my post:

Scroll Thaumaturgy
"Your multidisciplinary study of magic means you know how to activate the magic in scrolls with ease. You can **activate scrolls of any magical tradition, using your thaumaturge class DC for the scroll's DC, rather than a particular spell DC**. If a spell is on the spell list for multiple traditions, you choose which tradition to use at the time you activate the scroll. You can draw and activate scrolls with the same hand holding an implement, much like you can for esoterica."

Activate
"If an item lists “Cast a Spell” after “Activate,” the **activation requires you to use the Cast a Spell activity to Activate the Item**. This happens when the item replicates a spell. You must have a spellcasting class feature to Activate an Item with this activation component. If the item can be used for a specific spell, the action icon for that spell is provided. If it's an item like a staff, which can be used for many spells, the icon is omitted, and you must refer to each spell to determine which actions you must spend to Activate the Item to cast it."

Trick Magic Item
"You examine a magic item **you normally couldn’t use** in an effort to fool it and activate it temporarily. For example, this might allow a fighter to cast a spell from a wand or allow a wizard to cast a spell that’s not on the arcane list using a scroll. You must know what activating the item does, or you can’t attempt to trick it."

"If you activate a magic item that requires a spell attack roll or spell DC and you don’t have the ability to cast spells of the relevant tradition, use your level as your proficiency bonus and the highest of your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifiers. If you’re a master in the appropriate skill for the item’s tradition, you instead use the trained proficiency bonus, and if you’re legendary, you instead use the expert proficiency bonus."

The Scroll Thaumaturgy rule actually might just be adjusting the Spell DC when activating a scroll in Trick Magic Item and not the Activate action.

For Trick Magic Item, the spell DC proficiency is...

Trick Magic Item:
Lvl 2: Level + Highest Mental
Lvl 7: Trained
Lvl 15: Expert

Scroll Thaumaturgy:
Lvl 1: Trained
Lvl 9: Expert
Lvl 17: Master

A lvl 2 thaumaturge with +4 CHA wants to use a Scroll of Shocking Grasp. Per (what I assume is the correct interpretation) the rules for activating a scroll without the proper spellcasting feature, you would need to Trick Magic Item to activate a scroll (even a temporary scroll that they gain from Scroll Estoerica). They can still crit fail the TMI. If they do successfully TMI, then the Scroll Thaumaturge feat kicks in and your melee spell attack roll would be +8 (class DC) instead of +6 (TMI skill).

I feel pretty confident that this is a strong argument, but having a few more EXTREMELY smart people and confirming if it's right (or how wrong I am) would put my mind at ease. Thank you very much again!

I've been in some discussions and there are claims that a default familiar is NOT an animal because it doesn't state it has the [Animal] trait like it does the [Minion] trait. Other claims that the only trait it has is the [Minion] trait.

Per the CRB (217): "Familiars are mystically bonded creatures tied to your magic. Most familiars were originally animals, though the ritual of becoming a familiar makes them something more. You can choose a Tiny animal you want as your familiar, such as a bat, cat, raven, or snake. Some familiars are different, usually described in the ability that granted you a familiar; for example, a druid’s leshy familiar is a Tiny plant instead of an animal, formed from a minor nature spirit."

Familiars have the minion trait, so during an encounter, they gain 2 actions in a round if you spend an action to command them. If your familiar dies, you can spend a week of downtime to replace it at no cost. You can have only one familiar at a time."

To me, it's very obvious that because there are two different types of accessible familiars in CRB: tiny animals (via the Familiar ability, the Gnome ability, and the Alchemist ability) and tiny plants (via the Druid's Leshy Familiar). The APG seems to confirm this via Kinspeech (must be an animal familiar) and Plant Form (familiar must have the Plant trait).

Lastly, in the Kineticist Playstest for Elemental Familiar:
"A small creature made of elemental matter springs forth from your inner gate. This elemental familiar appears to be a small creature made of an element you can channel, though it might have some unusual or distinguishing aspects. Like other
familiars, your elemental familiar can assist you in various tasks and on adventures. **The familiar has the elemental trait instead of the animal trait, as well as the trait of one element you can channel.**"

It seems obvious to me that a familiar has the [Minion] and another trait as appropriate to the source by which you gained it (Animal, Plant, or Elemental).

Hiyo,

So after doing some playtesting with the kineticist then ruminating a bit over the experience via the survey. And I sorta wanted to comment on the experience of Gather Element -> Elemental Blast.

One, I personally like it. It's like Monk in a way where you choose your stance to gain different and new unarmed attacks. Except, this one feels a lot more personal, possibly because of how it ties to your Gate (subclass....cough...scuse me).

Elemental Weapon and Flexible Blasts were kinda neat with how they sorta changed up my build. I feel like at least one part of the Kineticist could be focusing on developing your own personal Elemental Blast on top of all the other things going on with the class (or not going on?).

It might be a bit of a copy from the Mind Smith, the Weapon Innovation Inventor, or the Summoner evolution feats for their eidolons, but I'm kinda curious about the possibility that we may be able to customize our elemental blasts to be more personalized to our character.

I mean, this is my elemental blast. There are many like it. But this one is mine.

Just curious if I’m understanding how this works.

Summoner Dedication: Due to your tenuous link, you can't gain or use tandem actions.

Steed Form: Since you work together to move, your eidolon's move actions while you're mounted gain the tandem trait.

Riding Sapient Creatures: Riding along on a sapient creature that isn't a minion requires a lot of coordination and timing. Both the riding creature and the mount regain only 2 actions at the start of their turns each round, as both the mount and the riding creature interfere with one another's actions. If you ride your eidolon, you reduce your total actions to 2 and continue to share actions normally—you don't reduce the number of actions twice.

So, if I’m understanding correctly: Since Steed Form feat doesn’t have the Tandem trait, you can take it. You gain three things from the feat:

-You gain 3 actions per turn, not 2 actions per turn.
-Only you can ride it in this way.
-Eidolon Move actions gain the Tandem trait.

I’m curious because the “you” in the summoner line, is that referring to the character, the eidolon, or the player? The eidolon Move (Stride/Step/Leap/Sneak/Burrow/etc..) gains the Tandem trait, not the character. The character can only perform Mount. The summoner character does not perform the move.

Second, in the summoner line, it says you cannot gain tandem move actions. Does that mean the eidolon loses all the move actions if the summoner ever mounts the eidolon with Steed Form?

So if you want to ride your eidolon as a summoner dedication, taking the Steed Form feat actually prevents you from riding your eidolon?

Been lurking about PF2e, and was really looking forward to the Witch class.

Personally, I think the Familiar is the actual core of the Witch mechanically and flavorfully. The Familiar is the face of the patron. It’s where the Witch’s magic comes from. Lose the Familiar, lose the spells, lose the connection to the Patron. When a new Familiar arrives, it’s like reclaiming a damaged spellbook.

So far, they have bonuses to the number of abilities Familiars can gain and even have a feat to boost the number of abilities. I think the witch playtest could’ve been a chance to try pushing that a little more.

Example/Ideas:

Knowledge Option feats:
-Once per short rest, your Familiar gains secret information from your Patron. Can reroll a Lore/Recall Knowledge check. Further feats increase the number of times
-Your familiar shares lessons beyond spells. Can apply your familiar’s skill proficiency to check rolls. Further feats can increase number of skills known. Should be balanced not to let the witch become a complete skill monkey, maybe somewhere similar to the bard’s level.

Spell Option feats: These could expand a witch’s spellcasting abilities.
-Your familiar divulges strange secrets. Pick another tradition allowed through your basic lessons. Can now learn and prepare spells of that tradition, but only up to lvl 3 spells.
-Your connection time your familiar has grown strong, when you cast a cantrip your familiar can cast the cantrip on another target within its range.
-Your familiar reveals the secret fundamentals of when magic was made. As a free action, when you cast a spell your familiar can use one of it’s actions to add one of your metamagic effects.
-Your familiar teaches you methods to intuit the nature of spells, during your daily preparations, you can choose a spell to become a Signature Spell. Further feats increase the number and how high they can heighten.

Combat Familiar options:
-Your familiar displays it’s true form. Sacrifice your highest level spellslots to turn your familiar into a larger form that can fight for you (more like a pseudo-companion let. Allows it to attack/tank/flank). The number of rounds is equal to the level of the spellslots. (Maybe other feats can boost its stats more)
-Your familiar unleashes your Patron’s power to aid you. Sacrifice a spellslots of your highest level, gain temp hp equal to your level and int mod for a number of rounds equal to the level of the spellslot sacrificed. During this time, gain +1 circumstance bonus to spell DC.
-Your familiar siphons the residual energy of a spell you just cast. Until the end of your turn, you or your familiar can deal 1d4 additional damage against a target you Strike against.
-Your familiar has taught you to coordinate casting spells through it. If delivering a spell through your familiar via the spell delivery master ability, your familiar can Stride at half it’s speed toward you as a Free action. (Prob a medium level feat)

Overall, I really love the whole patron and lesson system. I really liked how the iconic Witch art has her nine-tail fox familiar. I also think the Witch’s flavor and roleplay can create a varied experience. Not all witch’s are particularly happy being bestowed these gifts, and could range instead of a very close-knit relationship with their familiar to a hilarious “old-married” couple bantering. Could flavor witch’s to be like the demons from The Golden Compass series, to the guardian spirits of Nioh, or the traditional style of historical/mythological witches consorting with their familiars.