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Yup, too late to expect Paizo to make changes. If they didn't change Wilding Word, you'll need to target your familiar with it most of the time.
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I assume it has to be on purpose. Wild patron was weak and awkward in PF2, and the rework doubles down on being weak, awkward, and situational.
Somewhat similar circumstance with Rune/Inscribed. Bad before and they found new ways to make it bad now.
Paizo has player feedback, their own knowledge as designers, and we can directly compare these options to other witch hexes and familiar abilities (some of which are quite strong)... so they should know what they're doing here.
Which means they must want Wilding Steward to be both not very good and very awkward to take full advantage of.
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What would be cool is if Wilding Word was expanded to affect any single target creature, but was extra effective against animal / fungus / plant to the tune of "Creatures with this trait have an outcome one step more severe than their rolled saving throw"!
Would that be a step too far?
Honestly, the Wilding Steward ability is solid *if* you can hold your nose and target your familiar. RAW there's no reason it won't work, and because the alternative is you pretty much never get to use either the hex or the familiar ability, I'll accept it. Otherwise, you could hack it by carrying around a bug in a jar or something.
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Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to overwork and a design team with limited editing.
I'm not attributing it to malice, per se... but it also feels hard to believe that a company would publish options that ends up feeling weak, situational, and hard to use compared to their counterparts, have years of feedback to that effect, and then when it comes down rework those mechanics for a new book create more underpowered, situational, and clunky mechanics for those same options as being entirely incidental. Not when it's more of the same.
If it was just a matter of workflow troubles you'd expect the results to be more haphazard. Instead Paizo is being remarkably consistent here, and consistency suggests their workflow is fairly tight.
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It feels pretty random to me... When you compare patrons to other patrons it doesn't really feel like there's a rhyme or reason. I thought the Night patron was pretty bad before, but the new ability is actually pretty great with the right set up.
Honestly, the Wilding Steward ability is solid *if* you can hold your nose and target your familiar. RAW there's no reason it won't work, and because the alternative is you pretty much never get to use either the hex or the familiar ability, I'll accept it. Otherwise, you could hack it by carrying around a bug in a jar or something.Is it? Point Out is hardly amazing, especially because you're running on what, level + Int mod Perception? With the sickened penalty, if you're targeting the familiar? The senses help, of course, but tremorsense doesn't work on flying things and wavesense doesn't work most of the time period. Scent is pretty reliable, but still.
Even if it had better senses, I see monsters try to use Stealth roughly once in a blue moon, and definitely not frequently enough for me to think Point Out is worth an entire class feature. Heck. It probably wouldn't be worth it if it were a free action 1/turn with no strings attached and perfect senses, rather than one you have to trigger with hexes.
Point out in encounter mode isn't the useful thing here-- exploration mode is. The extra senses (and their longer range than is available to PCs) gives you really good odds of becoming aware of monsters before they are aware of you. That offers a chance to prep or prebuff, which is a huge tactical advantage. You may even be able to Recall Knowledge (with a Hard or Very Hard adjustment) to see if you can recognize the creature's smell. Even if you don't recognize the exact creature type, the smell of necrotized flesh or brimstone might tell you enough to prepare anti-undead or anti-devil stuff. And with Share Senses, you should be able to smell whatever your familiar smells. Tremorsense is a nice addition, particularly if your GM limits the distance you can smell things on the other side of a door.
I am sure there are some tables that won't let you pull off this sort of intelligence gathering and prep, but honestly those are tables I wouldn't want to play at anyway. (And particularly wouldn't want to play a witch.)
Ceremonial Knife looks like the go to witch feat.
Extra familiar is not terrible. It will make the familiar more worth using, though it will die super easy at high level. I'm not sure I saw a fix for the easy death when the party gets slammed by AoE abilities.
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Ceremonial Knife looks like the go to witch feat.
Extra familiar is not terrible. It will make the familiar more worth using, though it will die super easy at high level. I'm not sure I saw a fix for the easy death when the party gets slammed by AoE abilities.
What is Extra familiar?
There are various ways to boost your familiar's survivability, including damage resistance, extra hit points, and Phase Familiar (which is hopefully a cantrip now.) My favorite though is to use an elemental form immune, like a scamp, that is immune to whatever you're most likely to be hit with.
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Point out in encounter mode isn't the useful thing here-- exploration mode is. The extra senses (and their longer range than is available to PCs) gives you really good odds of becoming aware of monsters before they are aware of you. That offers a chance to prep or prebuff, which is a huge tactical advantage.
Unless the remaster has changed how familiars work in exploration mode, 60' senses and a middling perception aren't that exciting. It's not like familiars can take simultaneous actions in exploration like Eidolons can with Act Together.
Of note, the sample hedge witch build on 188 has a level 1 feat. However, there is no level 4 class feat, so so.ething is fishy. I do doubt that any reasonable suggested build would include cauldron before a basic lesson, so I am leaning towards they forgot to list the level 4 feat rather than mislabel them.
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Have the new Hexes been spoiled?
Agreed. Without being able to see what the Hex Cantrips look like, I can't really judge how well the remastered Patrons look.
I am somewhat interested in several of the Patron Familiar abilities though. That is at least somewhat usable and makes the Witch feel like they have a better and more useful familiar than what other classes can get - even if they can end up with the same number of standard familiar abilities each day.
Though, familiars are still rather squishy, so keeping them on the battle map is a risk.
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Point out in encounter mode isn't the useful thing here-- exploration mode is. The extra senses (and their longer range than is available to PCs) gives you really good odds of becoming aware of monsters before they are aware of you. That offers a chance to prep or prebuff, which is a huge tactical advantage.Unless the remaster has changed how familiars work in exploration mode, 60' senses and a middling perception aren't that exciting. It's not like familiars can take simultaneous actions in exploration like Eidolons can with Act Together.
I'll use a real example then: party reaches a door in a dungeon they want to open. You use the ability twice, once for scent, once for tremorsense. If there's an enemy in the next room, odds are you'll pick it up with one of the two. And if you're lucky, that smell gives you a clue how to kill it. (Smell brimstone? Bust out the silver sheen.)
Perception scores don't enter into it, BTW. "The Stealth skill is designed to use Hide for avoiding visual detection and Avoid Notice and Sneak to avoid being both seen and heard." If you have a special sense like scent, you are automatically detected unless you are taking special precautions against it or would be immune to triggering it, like a ghost without a scent. (Or you have the Foil Senses feat, which no published NPC or creature does.)
Unless the enemy knows your abilities and is preparing for you specifically, it is incredibly unlikely they are taking special precautions against you. There's a pretty good chance they aren't even using Avoid Notice if they are just chilling in their lair. Scent is a banger of an ability in a dungeon crawl. It can also help you detect ambushes before you fully walk into them if you're moving through something without clear boundaries, but as currently written you probably can't have a hex running consistently enough to thoroughly cover travel.
(You can also get scent as a baseline familiar ability, but only for 30 feet, and if your GM is penalizing your distance for having a door in the way it won't work as well.)
Point out in encounter mode isn't the useful thing here-- exploration mode is. The extra senses (and their longer range than is available to PCs) gives you really good odds of becoming aware of monsters before they are aware of you. That offers a chance to prep or prebuff, which is a huge tactical advantage.Unless the remaster has changed how familiars work in exploration mode, 60' senses and a middling perception aren't that exciting. It's not like familiars can take simultaneous actions in exploration like Eidolons can with Act Together.I'll use a real example then: party reaches a door in a dungeon they want to open. You use the ability twice, once for scent, once for tremorsense. If there's an enemy in the next room, odds are you'll pick it up with one of the two. And if you're lucky, that smell gives you a clue how to kill it. (Smell brimstone? Bust out the silver sheen.)
Perception scores don't enter into it, BTW. "The Stealth skill is designed to use Hide for avoiding visual detection and Avoid Notice and Sneak to avoid being both seen and heard." If you have a special sense like scent, you are automatically detected unless you are taking special precautions against it or would be immune to triggering it, like a ghost without a scent. (Or you have the Foil Senses feat, which no published NPC or creature does.)
Unless the enemy knows your abilities and is preparing for you specifically, it is incredibly unlikely they are taking special precautions against you. There's a pretty good chance they aren't even using Avoid Notice if they are just chilling in their lair. Scent is a banger of an ability in a dungeon crawl. It can also help you detect ambushes before you fully walk into them if you're moving through something without clear boundaries, but as currently written you probably can't have a hex running consistently enough to thoroughly cover travel.
(You can also get scent as a baseline familiar ability, but only for 30 feet,...
I meant extra familiar abilities.
This is why I take Foil Senses.
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I'll use a real example then: party reaches a door in a dungeon they want to open. You use the ability twice, once for scent, once for tremorsense. If there's an enemy in the next room, odds are you'll pick it up with one of the two. And if you're lucky, that smell gives you a clue how to kill it. (Smell brimstone? Bust out the silver sheen.)
Perception scores don't enter into it, BTW.
#1 tremorsense requires touching the surface in question, meaning both that creatures NOT on that surface aren't detected AND the familiar isn't taking any precautions vs attacks: a familiar out of his familiar satchel and strolling up to a door to try and sus things out might not come back [say a trap, it's an illusion/monster].
#2 smell through a door is questionable and if possible how much the range could be cut and on top of it how do you determine if it's a scent of an existing creature or of one that was there some time before and this leads to #3
#3 perception DOES enter into it as your familiar have to figure out what is: Senses, Rulebook pg. 464 "It might be undetected by you if it’s using Stealth or is in an environment that distorts the sense, such as a noisy room in the case of hearing." So in the above, just having the door would be enough to force a Seek for smell IMO [you don't have a direct flow of air to get a good scent] and there are a lot of environs that make for less than ideal for vibrations [like thick rugs, hay, ect], wouldn't be on the surface the familiar is on OR the creature isn't moving [say sleeping or reading a book]. Not to mention any normal scents/vibrations in the area...
#4 You NEED a knowledge check to identify a scent or vibration just like hearing or sight: knowing a creature is there and knowing what the creature is are different things. To take your example, how does your familiar know what brimstone smells like? And even if they do, do they associate it with the correct creature: for instance, the Sandpoint Devil's "hoofprints that reek of brimstone" but its weakness is to cold iron... It's not like you can really expect a familiar to explain a scent/vibration that's outside a PC's senses and expect them to leverage that into an identification.
IMO, saying you can ignore perception [and Knowledge checks too] is ill advised and ignoring the rules or expecting all white rooms in the game world where everything is on the same surface as your familiar and there is open air flow to them. What the familiar can bring to the table is pretty much what ANY adventurer can do by putting their ear up to the door as hearing is imprecise too: all familiars do is trade double the range for a rather lacking perception if they actually have to identify what they sense and THAT just isn't something I can get excited about.
EDIT: now if the familiars owner has Share Senses AND a non-crappy perception [and has a party that doesn't mind carrying around their body] is could be viable but is seems more trouble than it's worth.
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I'm with Morgan on that. For Scent, I agree that a door should be enough to block it, but in open areas it's excellent. And Tremorsense 60 ft. detects everything as long as it touches the ground, so in a dungeon, you can just map it in the blink of an eye. And as the Familiar is supposed to Point Out the location of creatures, it's intended for it to be able to do so, so no Knowledge check or whatever to know this is a creature that can be dangerous to the party.
And sustaining a Hex can be done as an Exploration activity. Considering the crazy 60 ft. range of the Tremorsense, the 1 minute immunity from Hexes is not really annoying.
For dungeon delving, this is one of the strongest scouting abilities in the game. I'd put it even above an Eidolon as it doesn't alert the enemies.
I also wonder if they'd give a beneficial use to Wilding Words. It would solve both the niche issue and the activation of the Familiar ability one while keeping the theme of the Patron.
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Foil Senses is useless if the DM doesn't allow other senses to pick up on a stealthed or hidden character if they don't precautions. As far as I know, that is exactly why imprecise and precise senses other than sight and hearing are so valuable. They defeat stealth or invisibility with stealth if you don't take precautions.
I'm with Morgan on that. For Scent, I agree that a door should be enough to block it, but in open areas it's excellent. And Tremorsense 60 ft. detects everything away from the party as long as it touches the ground, so in a dungeon, you can just map it in the blink of an eye. And as the Familiar is supposed to Point Out the location of creatures, it's intended for it to be able to do so, so no Knowledge check or whatever to know this is a creature that can be dangerous to the party.
Your missing part of the point: he's not only expecting to detect creatures but to id them for weaknesses: "Smell brimstone? Bust out the silver sheen." In open areas, sure it's useful for general finding creaures but again ha wasn't the scenario given and the familiar is on the ground where it's vulnerable...
Also, I'm not sure how tremorsense helps mapping: it can at best show you what direction the creatures are in as it doesn't sense anything else: you have no idea on what structures are here, what the creatures are or actual numbers as the targets must be moving to be sensed. In a fight with ground targets in the open it's great, but telling you that there is a hidden room 30' north and 20' west from the room your in is something it doesn't do.
And sustaining a Hex can be done as an Exploration activity. Considering the crazy 60 ft. range of the Tremorsense, the 1 minute immunity from Hexes is not really annoying.
I'm not sure what hexes have to do with this.
For dungeon delving, this is one of the strongest scouting abilities in the game. I'd put it even above an Eidolon as it doesn't alert the enemies.
Again, my point was about not needing to use perception and Knowledge checks to ID creatures with imprecise senses: nothing indicates tremorsense differentiates anything past movement: a giant rat and a devil both come out 'creature over there'. Itt's not a one stop shop to bypass checks.
And my second point is that even the general rule has exceptions: just like hearing doesn't auto detect in a noisy room, things like a rocking boat can require a check from tremorsense.
Foil Senses is useless if the DM doesn't allow other senses to pick up on a stealthed or hidden character if they don't precautions. As far as I know, that is exactly why imprecise and precise senses other than sight and hearing are so valuable. They defeat stealth or invisibility with stealth if you don't take precautions.
There are environmental factors too: it's easier to move silently in a noisy room or when the wind is howling. Same for things that block/hinder senses like padding on the floor vs tremorsense, hiding behind a wall for sight, being near a sulfur spring for Smell: the opposite can be true too with a particularly strong scent or upwind increases your scent range.
Hence, it, IMO, doesn't impact Foil Senses usefulness in the least.
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Your missing part of the point: he's not only expecting to detect creatures but to id them for weaknesses: "Smell brimstone? Bust out the silver sheen."
I don't think that's the important part. And Share Senses can help with that, if you really want. But I agree you shouldn't be able to id creatures outside some edge cases.
Also, I'm not sure how tremorsense helps mapping: it can at best show you what direction the creatures are in as it doesn't sense anything else
It's an imprecise sense, so it gives you the square the creatures is in. So it indirectly detects secret rooms and it gives you the number of enemies (unless they are on the same square which is rather unlikely).
It's true that, as the creatures need to move, the GM can annoy you and decide you are exploring Tussauds. But I think it's more of a GMing issue, then. Most creatures who are neither sitting nor lying are moving somehow.
I'm not sure what hexes have to do with this.
You need to sustain a hex to activate the ability.
the familiar is on the ground where it's vulnerable
Monsters rarely attack Familiars. And Familiars are not made of sugar, they can take a few hits (mines are triggering AoOs all the time).
It's an imprecise sense, so it gives you the square the creatures is in. So it indirectly detects secret rooms and it gives you the number of enemies (unless they are on the same square which is rather unlikely).
My point is that it doesn't ever directly help with mapping a structure as it only ever give you hints on what you can't see: sensing creatures 10' through a wall could mean a hall, a room, the outside, ect.
It's true that, as the creatures need to move, the GM can annoy you and decide you are exploring Tussauds. But I think it's more of a GMing issue, then. Most creatures who are neither sitting nor lying are moving somehow.
That would be something I'd expect a seek for as, IMO, it's using a move action that triggers it [Tremorsense, Core Rulebook pg. 465:"Tremorsense functions only if the detecting creature is on the same surface as the subject, and only if the subject is moving along (or burrowing through) the surface."]. Something minor, like rolling over in your bed, IMO isn't somehing you'd auto notice but something you have to focus on anymore than the rustling of their sheets would make them auto detected by hearing.
I also falls a bit under Dm fiat: "Detecting with Other Senses:
Most abilities that designate “a creature you can see” or the like function just as well if the user can precisely sense the subject with a different sense. If a monster uses a sense other than vision, the GM can adapt ways of avoiding detection that work with the monster's senses. For example, a creature that has echolocation might use hearing as a primary sense. This could mean its quarry is concealed in a noisy chamber, hidden in a great enough din, or invisible under a silence spell."
You need to sustain a hex to activate the ability.
Ah, I see what's being talked about now. Not sure how you even use it unless they've cleaned up familiar/companion use out of combat: Minions and owners don't currently have an exception to both act at the same time during exploration.
Monsters rarely attack Familiars. And Familiars are not made of sugar, they can take a few hits (mines are triggering AoOs all the time).
Mostly thinking of area attacks, traps and the like: from my experience, they are pure sugar a lot of the time they are out of their satchel. 5 hp/level can go quite quickly and I've seen lots of games that aren't adverse to creatures snacking on familiars: I'd be surprised if foes DIDN'T attack them when they start pointing at the stealthed guys...
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My point is that it doesn't ever directly help with mapping a structure as it only ever give you hints on what you can't see: sensing creatures 10' through a wall could mean a hall, a room, the outside, ect.
Maybe I used the word "mapping" incorrectly, but for me knowing where are most creatures in a dungeon is a form of mapping.
Something minor, like rolling over in your bed, IMO isn't somehing you'd auto notice but something you have to focus on anymore than the rustling of their sheets would make them auto detected by hearing.
I fully agree. But sleeping creatures are rarely the danger, standing ones are. Roughly, beyond ambush predators who can be extremely still while waiting, most standing creatures will move (even only because you periodically need to move your legs to avoid cramps).
Ah, I see what's being talked about now. Not sure how you even use it unless they've cleaned up familiar/companion use out of combat: Minions and owners don't currently have an exception to both act at the same time during exploration.
The action to point out is free. So you just need to sustain the hex (the Familiar has to follow the party, but that's rather expected without paying an action otherwise Animal Companions would eat your Exploration activities just to follow you).
Mostly thinking of area attacks, traps and the like
The Familiar won't trigger traps as it won't be in the front. As for area attacks, it's the same than having your Familiar on your shoulder, so no difference on that. And the Familiar ability is useful outside combat, not really during combat (I've seen very few situations where pointing out was a thing), so enemies will mostly ignore your Familiar, especially if it's in the back of the party. Also, Independent can be used to put your Familiar into safety, it's a rather common Familiar ability.
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At higher levels AoO effects are so brutal, putting your familiar in melee combat or even often in 30 feet or with the party is asking to get wasted.
Until Paizo realizes that familiar that can't attack or do much should just be immune to damage like an item. Let it do it's marginally useful activities with no real danger like a special item.
This is not PF1 where the familiar is using wands or scrolls with Use Magic Device or what not. The familiar's ability are mostly support or RP stuff, so let them be like an item where the players with familiars don't have to waste resources to use them.
That would make them somewhat worth having and remembering. Past the low levels, all it takes is one encounter with a serious AoE monster mob or group and your familiar is going to die while barely doing anything worth doing.
Familiar abilities are more like a scaling utility item. There is no need to let them die unless you blow them up with a final sacrifice or something.
If I don't see a vastly improved familiar, I may just house rule them as immune to damage and make them feel like a useful, versatile item that can only die or be affected in some very specific way or not at all.
The action to point out is free. So you just need to sustain the hex (the Familiar has to follow the party, but that's rather expected without paying an action otherwise Animal Companions would eat your Exploration activities just to follow you).
That's an untenable plan though: Repeat a Spell [which specifically covers Sustain] is its own activity and can only be sustained for 10 minutes. As for the familiar... yeah, you have to suck it up and use your activity to get your minion to follow you unless he DM handwaves it. Again, I hope the remaster actually explains some things like minions in exploration or real guidelines for Recall checks.
The Familiar won't trigger traps as it won't be in the front. As for area attacks, it's the same than having your Familiar on your shoulder, so no difference on that. And the Familiar ability is useful outside combat, not really during combat (I've seen very few situations where pointing out was a thing), so enemies will mostly ignore your Familiar, especially if it's in the back of the party. Also, Independent can be used to put your Familiar into safety, it's a rather common Familiar ability.
The premise of his whole thing was a familiar at a door and even in the back can be hit with area traps. As I point out... it's LITERALLY pointing out creatures and then the party looks that way: it's not rocket surgery to figure out what's going on. If you're relying on stealth and something keeps Pointing Out where you're moving, I'd find if shocking is it wasn't attacked.
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That's an untenable plan though: Repeat a Spell [which specifically covers Sustain] is its own activity and can only be sustained for 10 minutes.
Repeat a spell is if you want a spell to be permanently available. In that case, you are using it periodically but don't have to use it permanently. There are activities like Detect Magic that you can perform during exploration, there's no real difference. Otherwise, you'd have to use it outside Exploration Activities, which is silly as Exploration Activities are meant for such type of activities. But stupid GMs create stupid situations.
As for the familiar... yeah, you have to suck it up and use your activity to get your minion to follow you unless he DM handwaves it.
Well, if you ever find me a GM who forces all minion users to spend their Exploration Activities handling their minion, I'd like to know about it. It has always been handwaved around the tables I've been around as following its master is the obvious action a minion will perform when not told otherwise.
As I point out... it's LITERALLY pointing out creatures and then the party looks that way: it's not rocket surgery to figure out what's going on.
It's detecting creatures through walls. Once fight breaks out, it just serves no purpose.
So I agree it can be part of collateral damage, but being somehow focused seems a very strange behavior from the enemies.
Speaking of familiars, I feel like I'm going to be forced to describe them MUCH differently from other familiars, possibly even taking GM control of them frequently, so that Witches won't be so emotionally punished for recklessly throwing their familiars into combat which is evidently what they're supposed to do. I'll probably have them "die" by turning translucent but otherwise still hang around and make light of their abuse.
Really ramp up the jackdonkey side of a Patron granted familiar as opposed to the party mascot role other familiars get.
When I first saw Murksight my first thought was "I can't wait to take that!" After all, using fog and other obscuring effects that you can see through is a huge boon in battle.
I didn't understand why everyone was so down on it, so I looked at it again. That's when I saw it. Non-magical!? When is that ever going to come up?
My brain totally missed it on first reading because I couldn't comprehend the possibility of such a bad ability being createdby the Paizo developers. My faith in their abilities is shaken.
As written it is so situational that it may literally never come up in a whole campaign!
When I first saw Murksight my first thought was "I can't wait to take that!" After all, using fog and other obscuring effects that you can see through is a huge boon in battle.
I didn't understand why everyone was so down on it, so I looked at it again. That's when I saw it. Non-magical!? When is that ever going to come up?
My brain totally missed it on first reading because I couldn't comprehend the possibility of such a bad ability being createdby the Paizo developers. My faith in their abilities is shaken.
As written it is so situational that it may literally never come up in a whole campaign!
In my experience players will get use out of it, because it is a level 8 feat and they have identified the niche ability as something that would have come in handy in the campaign they have been playing.
Do people really pick random abilities that haven't been solutions to issues the party have been facing? Like, it isn't universally good sure, but if the campaign has a lot of rain, mist or snow then the players will generally know about it. (I would rather it apply to magical effects too though)
Also murksight is reliably useful if the party or the witch likes to use mistform elixir and the witch has reason to target them. (Battlemedicine and support spells). (It is non magical)
That's an untenable plan though: Repeat a Spell [which specifically covers Sustain] is its own activity and can only be sustained for 10 minutes. As for the familiar... yeah, you have to suck it up and use your activity to get your minion to follow you unless he DM handwaves it. Again, I hope the remaster actually explains some things like minions in exploration or real guidelines for Recall checks.
I am definitely going to wait for the full Remaster rules to be available before getting into this debate with you again.
As for checking the other side of a door with tremorsense or scent, that wouldn't be done in Exploration mode. It is using abilities that take an action or two to use. That would be more of a non-combat Encounter mode.
Which, yes:
The rules in this section assume a combat encounter—a battle—but the general structure can apply to any kind of encounter.
Does exist. Encountering a door is still an encounter.
Repeat a spell is if you want a spell to be permanently available. In that case, you are using it periodically but don't have to use it permanently. There are activities like Detect Magic that you can perform during exploration, there's no real difference. Otherwise, you'd have to use it outside Exploration Activities, which is silly as Exploration Activities are meant for such type of activities. But stupid GMs create stupid situations.
It's a lot less impressive if you only use it once in a while: you're less likely to notice those occasional movements that way.
Well, if you ever find me a GM who forces all minion users to spend their Exploration Activities handling their minion, I'd like to know about it. It has always been handwaved around the tables I've been around as following its master is the obvious action a minion will perform when not told otherwise.
I have and they do: some DM actually want to follow the rules as presented. As one said 'if I allow them to act, it takes something away from the summoners act together allowing it.
It's detecting creatures through walls. Once fight breaks out, it just serves no purpose.
So I agree it can be part of collateral damage, but being somehow focused seems a very strange behavior from the enemies.
Deriven Firelion was talking about stealthed/hidden creatures so I was including combat: if it's not using he ability then you lose out on combat detecting but its less likely to get individually targeted. This may change with the addition of witch feats that allow attacking with them like spirit familiar.
It's a lot less impressive if you only use it once in a while: you're less likely to notice those occasional movements that way.
Many Exploration Activities are based on the fact that you use the abilities once in a while. Still, you won't consider that the character using Detect Magic fails to notice magic because "it was happening when they were not casting".
As one said 'if I allow them to act, it takes something away from the summoners act together allowing it.
Act Together allows the Eidolon to have an Exploration Activity. The Familiar walking is not the same as the Familiar using an Exploration Activity so it doesn't remove anything from the Summoner.
if it's not using he ability then you lose out on combat detecting but its less likely to get individually targeted
Combats where you need to find hidden creatures are the extreme rarity. I remember of one in my 300 sessions. So, for these fights you'll use the Familiar ability. It will put the Familiar in danger in 0.1% of the fights.
I am definitely going to wait for the full Remaster rules to be available before getting into this debate with you again.
I'd love for it to make the argument moot.
As for checking the other side of a door with tremorsense or scent, that wouldn't be done in Exploration mode. It is using abilities that take an action or two to use. That would be more of a non-combat Encounter mode.
It's scouting/mapping the area... IMO, it'd be the similar to Seek/Scout activities: Gather Information isn't done as a series of individual encounters.
Does exist. Encountering a door is still an encounter.
I mean, that means that exploration never happens: you leave town and encounter a road, then a rock, then a forest, then... Now if the DM wants to start an encounter at the door they can but I don't think they HAVE to.
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As one said 'if I allow them to act, it takes something away from the summoners act together allowing it.
No, it doesn't. It very literally doesn't. The Summoner/Eidolon is still able to do absolutely everything that they could do before.
Allowing a Familiar to also escape from the rising water that is flooding the sunken temple, rather than standing around drowning because the Witch is having to make a run for it, is not harming the Summoner at all.
Many Exploration Activities are based on the fact that you use the abilities once in a while. Still, you won't consider that the character using Detect Magic fails to notice magic because "it was happening when they were not casting".
Repeat a Spell is like that with "You repeatedly cast the same spell while moving at half speed" but it says "In order to prevent fatigue due to repeated casting, you’ll likely use this activity only when something out of the ordinary occurs". this isn't consistent with trying to detect where all the creatures are: is it's just something like trying it on doors, that's similar.
Act Together allows the Eidolon to have an Exploration Activity. The Familiar walking is not the same as the Familiar using an Exploration Activity so it doesn't remove anything from the Summoner.
It's because the owners action isn't paid for: Independent and the free 1 action AC's get isn't clear that it applies and/or "the GM might determine that your familiar chooses its own tactics rather than performing your preferred action" if it's allowed in exploration.
if it's not using he ability then you lose out on combat detecting but its less likely to get individually targeted
Combats where you need to find hidden creatures are the extreme rarity.
You and I clearly play with different tables/groups.
As one said 'if I allow them to act, it takes something away from the summoners act together allowing it.No, it doesn't. It very literally doesn't. The Summoner/Eidolon is still able to do absolutely everything that they could do before.
Allowing a Familiar to also escape from the rising water that is flooding the sunken temple, rather than standing around drowning because the Witch is having to make a run for it, is not harming the Summoner at all.
It's allowing the witch to get a free action that the summoner is required to pay for: the witch gets to Command it's Minion without cost in that situation while a summoner has to escape from the rising water that is flooding the sunken temple without his Eidolon as hey don' have the actions to get it to run or unmanifest it.