Karai Snillore's page

They damaged Organized Play when they decided to tell players how they should play, rather than supporting the ways players already wanted to engage with the game.

I haven't been on here in nearly 7 years, and missed the entire transition to 2e. In fact, I actually barely have even got to try 2e and when I took a gander at my local society play they got weirdly closed off.

Can you uh, fill me in. How did Paizo tell players how to play, as opposed to encourage them to play the way they were playing?

Authors and members of the community interested in producing sanctioned independent adventure scenarios for use with the current Pathfinder Society and Starfinder Society programs will be able to do so under clear guidelines that we will release before Gen Con.

While I am having the same response as most, and hope the best for Paizo and it's staff, my brain and eyes can't help but drift to this. Are they saying 3rd party individuals will be able to publish Society Scenarios with paizo? Like anyone can just, post a scenario and it will be good as long as it fits the guidelines?

I've missed ORC and Pathfinder Infinite's introductions, so maybe I've missed some serious junk. So am I reading this right?

Thank you for your quick answers. They seemed to line up with what I expected and where very to the point.

One more question then and I'll likely be on my way.

If the subject of Enlarge Person has a gun, and is handed by another creature ammunition for a gun of large size then loads his gun with this ammo... What happens if the ammo is still in the gun when the subject shrinks?

Does the gun become jammed? Destroyed? Is the gun unable to shrink, or at least becomes the minimal size for the ammunition? Or does it perhaps work to cause some other kind of mechanical effect?

Likely such a niche question I imagine there is no real clear answer-but jammed or burst is my thought.

I have a number of questions all revolving around the enlarge person and reduce person spells.

1) If you are enlarged and given a large size item, when you shrink does it remain large? Or like arrows being shot from an enlarged archer, do they return to normal size only upon leaving the hands of the wielder?

2) If you are enlarged, grab an item intended for a large size creature, and place it in one of your bags before you return to normal size... Does it simply rip apart the bag? Does it resize with you temporarily? Is it simply squeezing in the space while continually trying to burst out?

Or does the Bag perhaps only shrink as far as it can with the item inside, until the item is removed?

3) If an enlarged creature swallows something whole, when it returns to normal size what happens with the creature previously (and assuming) only a size category lower?

4) If a creature is reduced in size, then swallowed whole---when the spell wears off assuming the original creature is normally the same size as the creature who has swallowed them... What happens?

Based on responses I'll likely have follow up questions.
I also saw that some of these where asked before, but I'm hoping for some better clarifications.

I went to edit my first post to include more of my test runs. Wont seem to let me do it. Oh well. You say your in the area? I missed this post like months ago apparently. You still about Grave?

Hrm, could work thematically but man it'd hurt mechanically. Riding along in someone else, possess them long enough to take my turn by using a standard action. Then we'd have to play the delay our turn game to sync up the me act, then releasing control by releasing the possession itself for them to act. But then I don't think I'd return to riding possession from there just back to my body.

Still, closest thing it looks like so far. I may just have to give up on this. Ha ha ha, or willingly sacrifice someones turns to just build into a cool-we combine to be stronger by stacking effects-thing.

So I was mulling over a potential... err.. Crystal Gems build, based off the show Steven Universe.

<.< Don't judge me.

And was trying to solve how I can keep all the themes if I wanted to jokingly just build this for mechanics. When it struck me this nifty spell exists: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/possession/

Which left me with some interesting questions! Because---I may or may not be obsessed with the mechanic of possession/magic jar/possess object. . .Can I relinquish control without leaving the body?

Example: Bob and Joel hit their first round of combat. Joel casts Possession on Bob, who willingly fails his save. Joel is now in Bob, on Bob's turn instead of skipping it, Joel grants him control over his own body but does not return to his own. Allowing Bob to take his actions. On Joel's turn, Joel returns to control of the body and takes his actions.

While I see nothing suggesting this is a potential strategy--I also don't see much that says otherwise. The spell indicates that they are not displaced like with Magic Jar but remain in the same body. It does show you can return to your own body as a Standard Action. It also indicates you can willingly let them talk to you, telepathically.

I think there may be something somewhere about this but because returning to your own body is a Standard Action it may simply not work. As you may need to expend Standard Actions to do it. Otherwise, most likely, you must remain in control the whole time.

I figure the answer is no, because of http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-rules/magical-possession/ and where it says that a host is helpless within the body. However, it may also be just because you are keeping them helpless.

Maybe someone also asked this before? Who knows. I didn't find it, but I figure this is a worthwhile question to ask before I precede with... Building... dumb things.

Oh darn. I got super excited until I realized the illustration was our general goal. GOT IT!

But we can still submit really any kind of character as long as it meets the criteria but we're encouraged to aim for this section of the world and this illustration.

Can do. I may completely go off the wall. I may also just write the character I wanted to submit as part of this character's backstory! =D That could work well!

Edit: Oh. It isn't our general goal it's just an example? So as long as it's from the region it has a better chance? I like it. Gotcha.

Wait what if we are over word limit by like, 7 or 10? Disqualified or exactly between 250 and 300? wow that's a rough place. But with so many expected entries I can see why!

Are we aiming to make this like a biography, a short story, or just whatever to kind of introduce the character?

I really need to get caught up on this thread, read and reply to everyones posts and update accordingly the guide with anything super cool dropped in here.

Just did a scan over and had to say... Pfft Man Kadance I wanna meet your players. <3 Also thanks to you folks who have liked the whole idea.

That is a lot of interesting items, Thistledown. I'll have to go over them myself, and add them to the guide when I'm more free today. I do have to say I like the fake armor. It still really serves our purpose.

Oh! Oh! Ionnia! I like what you got going. Though seriously I'm starting to think we need like a 'team' thing. Like our own pretend faction we can RP up, working inside the other factions. Still I love the theme of your toon, should make the mech 'sarcophagus' like.

Though not sure rather I wanna set that up.

Snuff's mech is still one of the better designed it seems. I like to think of it as a tank simply cause of how crazy you can just add health and hardness for 1000 gold an upgrade. sheesh.

Agreed! I'd love to get a whole team going!
A lot of people here seem to shy away from the idea though, but I think if we get the right scenarios and team going, this could be some kind of legendary run!

I've also considered the idea that once you can possess Gargantuan creatures, just buying a Ship with PR and then using it to both transport the whole party and by passing travel time via giving it a burrow speed.

I live near Boise, still Gen Con sounds like a great idea. I'd love to see a 'Mech' Team hit a game. Like, legit, it'd be the best run ever. Find a crazy GM willing to run, a group of players who have built into it, and just, roll out.

In Character the toons would have no idea the sneaky Venture Captains selected all of them for their mechs. So when we all start popping into our suits... BOOM, hilarious results follow.

Either way thank you folks! I got all my answers and really appreciate it. =D

Okay so I only glanced before. So now to finally get back to everyone.

Thistledown Holy Cow! Look at all these beautiful options you put in front of me. I feel like a kid in a candy shop! --I may or may not be updating the guide as we speak because you've provided some very, useful, very powerful options. The most beautiful being the super easy way to transport the mech! Those Needles! Those beautiful Needles!

Also I appreciate all the input. The average heights should go a long way, I'll actually go do some math, when I'm done taking in reading this darn thread again. . . I also need to start adding credits to you folks somewhere in this!

Oh! (If you haven't guessed I'm writing this out as I read post by post) That list of Statues is amazing! I'll have to incorporate it somewhere. It's a great representation that size and weight aren't always cohesive even with material. Why I really like using Masonry Stone (basically it's a mix of stone materials) and basing the construction of the statue off weight limits for size as opposed to height then calculating weight by figuring out the weight of the material.

Ravingdork After review I believe your correct. It doesn't grant additional attacks, but natural attacks are sort of their own thing. It makes sense, so the extra attacks form buying more slams should still stand.

Illeist
Thanks for the direct quote! Makes fixing up Barbarian far more useful. I am gonna poke around, I see where Squeeze is definitely not PFS legal outside the race but I do question if then, magic items creating the effect count in that or how they interact.

Plausible Pseudonym
That is a very good point you make about the mind and mind effecting spells. This is a newer book too, talking about a newer spell. So, way back when I started a good point to make is the difference between the Ultimate Magic spell, Possess Object and the Occult Adventures spell, Object Possession. Object Possession clearly works this way. Amazingly the spell we are focusing on is the Ultimate Adventures, which doesn't have the additional information on rather the construct can be affected by mind affects now.

While a DM or GM could rule that, it is text on two separate spells.

Wait wait, and I apologize I write as I read so I see there is a giant section clarifying how possession works. This is very helpful. You Opened some beautiful doors! BEAUTIFUL DOORS!

Get this! According to the text, the caster must be aware that your possessing the target, or the caster is considered to be targeting the possessed. It must make the active choice to target your mind. While this doesn't give you absolute immunity it does fall back on the fact most enemies will never know what you are or think, to check.

As a result, you, yes you, can affect yourself with mind affecting abilities. LIKE RAGE. Opening Barbarian to be applicable. Though it still means Kinetisict can't infinite burn... *Sigh*

Mech-Man!
Love your name.
You caught Lune with my answer before hand. That and I like to clarify the book does read that Constructs ARE in fact creatures. Just manufactured. Which helps for things like the Occultist's power.

You would maintain your PrC, as your only temporarily, not permanently, losing the qualifications to it. If you would somehow permanently lose it without having to repurchase access through feats you'd then lose it.

Snuf Wheeler
Ohhh! Beautiful! We should swap some stories at some point. I've only got to level 7 myself with Karai. I'll have to take some time to look over your recommendations. As I'm not 100% familiar with some of them.

Also I would LOVE to add it to the guide. So thank you! I'm going to have to find the perfect place to slap this picture in. Ha ha ha! Hell, can I get a quote from Snuff to plaster in?

Edit: ((for now I'm placing it on the Useful Equipment section. I think it makes sense with what you've tossed at me)) I'm also going to come back to your extensive list as I'm out of time. GOD after reading over your list I wish our toons could be in a game at the same time ha ha ha. It'd be HILARIOUS.

Shadowkire
I'm not so sure about the GM thing. Most of it is as close to absolute as I can get. There are some things that require rulings from your GM but I think people are assuming there are more then it appears.

However, I both agree, and think that if it is a problem... You can just possess the object then pick up your body. It doesn't say it dispels post gaining an occupant.

Wow I'm gone for a week and there is soooo much to respond to. Holy poop. To be honest, I keep trying to update the guide based on feedback and information I get.

For all the Class, Item, Spell, and similar recommendations. I need more time to sort of go over all that before I can give a proper response (which may just come in the form of an addition or change to the actual guide).

So, I do feel though some things really really really need addressed. So I'll go forward with them and one or two other things on the fly.

Thistledown another fifth level scroll per use yes. OR you can pay the spell casting services cost, and it'll last for the allointed time. It appears to undo the spell simply requires a command word so if you know the word just have a service cast for you going in. Wont always be available so be sure to at least have the scroll for then.

Illeist Oh boy. Making me nervous here. I guess this could be argued that, you simply have a pile of stone and or rocks. I did go to the collective DMs in the area, and ask about and presented this as an option, and it was generally accepted. However I guess that does also mean it can be said no. Thus our backup plan. The Wagon. 100 gold for a Heavy Wagon is pretty cheap, a lot cheaper then buying a pile of material and assuming you can have it constructed into a statue--as a piece of art.

I'll need to triple check the squeezing thing. If it is only PFS legal through sheets and access to the race, I need to potentially poke someone to fix something of theirs.

Kaouse Is that because, Rage, is mind affecting or something along those lines?

Ravingdork Oh. That is a most interesting piece of information. So natural attacks can still be used but it couldn't swing like, 4 swords with four arms.

Errang Epoch ...Whoa. Yeah I'm going to have to remember to add that just so that it can be presented at tables. I think though I wont be adding anything today. Not unless I have a sudden moment of feverish inspiration to update the document.

Holy moley there are some ideas here, but I think everyone is kind of getting the idea why I love the potential of this!

In Pathfinder Primer, there is a Vanity that lets you acquire a Pathfinder Lodge of your own. Which, to be honest I want for no other reason beyond to just have the beautiful thing, don't even think I'd use it mechanically. Still, I noticed it had a conditional modifier to the price.

If your character is a venture-captain they get a reduced cost. I wasn't aware player characters could be venture-captains! I have done a little searching but am unsure. Is this actually referring to the OOC position of our local Venture-Captains, and what I assume is an assigned character? Or is there a vanity or some way to acquire such a rank IC?

I am most interested.

As a side question I've seen two rulings on Vanities from factions like Chiliax, being able to be purchased or not by the faction that replaces them. I've seen a quote from additional resources saying that they couldn't, but I also don't see that exact text that was quoted in the additional resources page... So anyone know the ruling on this off the top of their heads?

You should use Treasure Stitching to transport the mech, not a wagon. This method trades the weight limit of the wagon for a volume limit 10ft cubed, so remember to fold your mech down as small as possible when you release the possession. There is also a 100 GP cost for every casting which will probably stack up pretty high after a while although the duration is days/level so as long as you aren't needing to whip it out every fight (lookin at you Voltron) then you should be able to manage it.

Do Ex and SU abilities transfer with the possession? If so I think the Oracle is probably another fantastic choice for this build.

ElterAgo wrote:

2) I think the construction points would have to be related to how you made the statue, not chosen at your whim at the time of casting the spell.

If you make it out of wood it has wood hardness, if you make it out of stone it has the stone hardness, etc...
However, you could give it 4 clawed arms. Then I would allow you to chose whether it has 2/3/4 attacks, slam/slash/piercing attacks, or a burrow speed.
Would have to have the long body, tentacles, or tail to get the constrict.
Arms would have to be long enough to get the extended reach.
Large legs/feet for trample.
Etc...

Magic Jar specifically disallows gaining extra attacks from your new body

Hrm. That does shift the build quite a bit. I had assumed the multiple slams didn't always necessarily require multiple limbs (just really fast striking). However, it's clear that what is intended is no more 'advantageous' than two weapon fighting. This means it should limit the maximum number of attacks allowed to 2 from the new form itself. Or a single construction point, leaving 3 for... whatever use you want. Huh.

Wow took this long for anyone, including myself, to catch that.

Also. Holy Mother of God. Treasure Stitching IS FREAKING AMAZING!

-You do definitely gain CP for (effectively) casting animate object, but make sure you only pay for the things that are actually true about your giant robot (ie, if your object is made of stone, you can't get the metal perk).

-In PFS, squeeze is only a legal wand choice if you are a Vishkanya. Also, 2nd level wands are only 4,500 gp.

-I totally vote for using mending as the primary way to repair your construct. I mean, you only need to hit CL 62,640.

But are the magic items that can be activated for squeeze effects legal? Hrm. Could of sworn I got it from a reliable source.

There is one big, awkward question, though: how are you making the statue? We're looking at a fairly massive undertaking here. Even magic doesn't make it that much easier. Fabricate would take ~9 castings at minimum CL, and major creation's duration is way too short.

Good questions, so lets start. Statues of this size aren't that uncommon in the real world, in time periods older then the general fantasy era-esque comparison of Galorian. Next, the answer really lies in how you get any gear at all in PFS. You just do. If you have the coin, you can just buy whatever your fame lets you. There are no questions. You just do. While explaining how IC, I'd say you just dumped a large sum of gold on the entire project.

Technically, as it is just a piece of art. A statue can be bought for 1cp. Which is kind of stupid and silly. It's why I've presented a much more, felt, list using price per pound of material. So there is nothing preventing you from buying it, or unrealistic amounts of really anything in PFS. The rules simply allow it as in between sessions, your just assumed to be wherever with access to whatever your fame allows you to buy.

Unless we're really wanting more on the RP of it. Which the society has a lot of resources and dumping gold on the right resources can get something built. Or if as a GM one would generally dislike it. Just buy a Heavy Wagon for 100 Gold and it functions equally well.

For the very small portion that is not society legal that has been described, and is intended for home games... That is where you hit a real pickle. You need to be in a larger city, have access to skilled craftsmen, and have the days to do so.

Ok, I've been putting my GM hat on and thinking how I would rule some of these imponderables. This is just at my table, not a Society ruling. If they later officially override me, that is fine.

1) Gold of that value is not going to be a huge statue. Gold is too dense. I will try to do some rough math later.

2) I think the construction points would have to be related to how you made the statue, not chosen at your whim at the time of casting the spell.
If you make it out of wood it has wood hardness, if you make it out of stone it has the stone hardness, etc...
However, you could give it 4 clawed arms. Then I would allow you to chose whether it has 2/3/4 attacks, slam/slash/piercing attacks, or a burrow speed.
Would have to have the long body, tentacles, or tail to get the constrict.
Arms would have to be long enough to get the extended reach.
Large legs/feet for trample.
Etc...

3) Getting a huge metal or stone statue on/off a wagon or beast of burden could often be very difficult if you don't have some beefy folks in your party or substantial spell assistance. A lot of scenarios, modules, adventures might make it difficult if not impossible to take the wagon or beats of burden. Then what are you going to do if your transport gets killed, destroyed, or immobilized halfway through?

4) Some shapes of statue might be able to crouch down or curl up enough to fit in a Portable Hole, but again that is expensive.

Please Note: I am not dismissing the idea! I like it and might give it a try in the future. I just think some of it might be a bit more problematical than some seem to be assuming.

1) That is interesting. I would like to drop the response that magic, fantasy world, but I feel a lot of what I presented relies on a decent mix of both. In the end I guess that is up to GMs.

2) I would almost agree. Been intending to present my counter to this but I've been busy. Let us say you have an Adamantine Sword. You decide to possess or even just animate it. A sword is only a small object, which doesn't get enough construction points to be an adamantine animated object. It doesn't even get enough CP to be metal. At most you can make it stone with the single CP it gets.

While we do want to make sure the Suit matches what it realistically has, I think for certain things it needs to be waved as magical alternations as side effect of the spell. You simply cannot have an adamantine animated object, at any size lesser then a Colossal as none will have the point value for it. You could just give it to them if they have built the object with the material if you like as GM-but that is a GM call and not by the rules as presented. I guess this is one of those, guide lines vs home calls thing.

Additionally look at the construction point options. A few say that the object, requires the statue to have the appropriate parts where as others do not say this. This I think, is intended to reflect the magical vs physical nature of the statue.

I'll have to add a section about this to the actual guide post.

3) Leave it. Your still a fully functional class without it. I generally pop a few undead, stand back and let them smack things. Buff a few party members, and act to assist in flanking. I get to save my scroll for the next game and while I've lost my beast, I can still potentially recover my suit as we'll have the place clear and there is no reason I can't just go back for it later.

I can also just buy a new one as masonry stone is cheaper then most magic items. Usually too, when a scenario presents a physical obstacle that would prevent my progress it is also generally near a point that is just in between section travel. I'd get a feel for how close I am to my goal (lets say I'm heading for a tower on a mountain to fight a thing, I'd inquire from group or use my own mapping skills to figure out our travel time left). If close enough to our destination, I'll just pop the suit and finish our travel as my suit, get there, smash stuff, abandon the suit if I have to post.

The Suit, surprisingly is not the expensive part of this. Even the wagon or beasts of burden. What is expensive is the spell. So the suit itself, can be sacrificed if need be (and is partly intended to be done so in some situations) to progress.

4) Wait, wait wait. This can fit in a portable hole? Seriously?!

Also to everyone else. DARN I wish I could change the name of this thread. I had no idea someone else was already using Pierce the Heavens! As the tag line for their build. >-> Now I feel cheap.

Just an editing note. There are several places in your document where you have typed 'form' and really mean 'from' based on context. I know it is an early revision, just thought I'd let you know.

Thank you. I actually am horrible at editing, and have a small issue where I tend to flip the middle portion of my words around. I'll have to go through and fix it when I get the time.

For that matter I may wanna rename it. I saw another guide with a similar name, clearly from the same inspiration.

A couple of things to note as ideas.

Some spells cannot be cast on the animated object. Since it is a construct any mind-affecting, humanoid specific plus a variety of others just won't work. However, since some of these spells are mental based, they may still work since you are possessing the creatures. Something like heroism (which lasts 10 min/level, and also increases your skill checks) should still work. This can increase your accuracy and saves in your mech.

A familiar with a collection of wands could be very useful. Imagine having an improved familiar that can drop Mage Armor, magic fang or make whole on the construct. Could work well with builds like Eldritch Guardian Fighters as well, since you are already investing in UMD.

Pragmatic Activator lets you use Intelligence instead of Charisma for UMD checks.

Belt of the Weasel provides a +2 Dex and gives you Compression. This means a Huge Construct can occupy squares as a Large with no penalty and squeeze down to medium. Could make moving through dungeons more viable. The belt costs 10000 gp, so costs some resources, but like all Wondrous Items it changes size to fit.

When I go to fix the issues above (likely in a day or two) I'll add these options in, they are stupid useful and I don't think I caught the belt of the weasel. I did find two other magic items that allow compression but more options!

Especially that familiar thing. That is a must.

There's trade goods here - just scroll down a bit, whatever the attractions of a chocolate golem - or you can use the coin weights. 50 coins weigh one pound, and the metal weight is the same as the coin value.

Ahh! I see I made a mistake and marked gold too cheap. Time to fix it!

Additionally, your stumbling into some of the path I likely should of explained. An object that is 1/50th of a pound should have a density of 10.44, which is how we come to the idea that taking a huge size creature's weight and doing (weight) x 10.44 = the pounds of material needed to make the suit. It's one of the alternates I provide to building the suit.

Crazy how giving us this number makes for crazy silly times.

@The Sideromancer: Stone Shape! I assumed stone shape would only allow me to alter the statue if I could alter the whole thing, it didn't strike me it would still alter pieces of the statue! Brilliant! I'll have to add a section about this.

@Captain Battletoad: Excellent Question! I assume, that your feats are maintained in the form. Though I could just be taking less literally the description of the spell then I should. It sort of doesn't make sense to lose your knowledge, and retaining your mental abilities, I would assume falls on things you've learned.

So unless I'm really incorrect, you should retain your Proficencies at no extra cost. Just more junk to drag around.

@Dasrak: Beautiful! I'll have to make a list of this. Seems my whole opening premise needs reworked and this list will be excellent help in being clear in the options before the player wanting to do this build!

@Dave Justus: Great Points! I'll have to add information for late game viability. However even if the suit goes down, it can be mended later and is cheap to replace. In the end, it means the enemy has 75 points of HP, hardness 8 to break through first in order to actually face you. If your a front line melee class, you've likely already got stuff in your own build that synergies with this. Yeah fist fighting as a wizard is going to be rough, but fist fighting as a barbarian doing this?

For me Late game is partly about movement. As an Occultist I can do short distance teleportation, and perfect flight using my focus powers. Roll in deal some damage, provide flanking for others, and be generally perceived as a bigger threat to allow my allies an in.

In Campaign late game It slowly becomes less and less useful (though if it's on your list you eventually can possess gargantuan things and when is there not something that big around? ;3) but it works much like any other buff spell, in that it forces more obstacles against the enemy. In Society, I doubt when you hit the cap you'll see enemies large enough that the suit isn't making some kind of difference.

---Oh gonna just start quoting here.

Yeah, just a thought. To be honest, I think the best use for the construct as you go up in levels is in combat maneuvers, specifically grapple. A huge creature with a massive STR score can do wonders with a grapple, given just a couple of feats invested.

I agree, it isn't many points to add grab and I've rarely been in a game at high enough levels that I figure it would matter. Plus if you do this AS a brawler, your not sacrificing anything your not using out of the suit for it.

That said, the concept is fun and I don't want to come across as saying that no one should ever play this or something like it, just feel that it is important to point out that the numbers are fighting against you.

=D We appreciate it. It's good to have this constructive criticism you are giving. Super helpful. So far it has provided excellent questions and points. I will continue testing until the society cap at, 11 or 12, and make some final adjustments then. So far up through 7 I've had rarely anything do even a few points past my hardness, or survive me reaching melee. We'll see a change in that with some of the corrections made here, but I'd say it's more viable then, lets compare some odd things here, some of the pregens of level or some other builds of level. It's not perfect optimization, but it is trying to optimize a fun idea. =)

I think it'll work, unless things start getting really crazy.

I also recommend in the build that you actually have your base ability scores at a point intended for qualifying for feats rather then completely using them as dump stats but it also depends on play style. I generally also recommend just going in for punching, and movement speed for positioning. Land as many blows as you can while they widdle at you, and your allies do their work. If you go down, you got what is at least a half way decent character capable of finishing what your suit and allies may not of.

In the guide, 1 pound of gold should be 50 gp of course, 1 pound of silver 5 gp, 1 pound of copper for 0.5 gp sounds better still (natural attacks: spiky headbutt & torch sculpted into the arm.) A statue made of a couple of tons of charcoal sounds like something that'd fall to pieces in minutes in a trip in a simple wagon over rutted roads.

I'm mostly following charts I've seen. Did I copy the cost down wrong? Or am I misunderstanding. Also that is correct. It's why I marked it in red. It is doable just not smart.

As I understand magic jar/possession spells, SLA's come with the "soul" being transfered. Hexes are SLA's; as such, why no reccomendation for either a) the Witch class as a pilot b) the Hexcrafter magus, or c) the shaman?

Also if you've got friends or consumables Ablative Barrier is made for this build.quote]

To be honest this is my 2nd Rough Draft. I was not getting much feed back in my local circles and I intend to steadily add to it as I continue test runs. All those classes I intend to add to this, but also because I don't quite know all the classes enough yet. Like Shaman or Witch. Both are fairly new mechanically to me ((a 3.5 player coming to pathfinder just recently)). I do intend to going forward add them. =D I just also may be way too impatient.

ElterAgo wrote:

This seems like a Magi thing to my way of thinking. Even if it works better with other classes, it just seems like something a magi would do.

You can't talk while piloting, but could you cast spells with the silent meta magic feat and eschew materials?

The answer is no. The spell specifically says no spells. Which means no spells, silent or not. Also I agree to a degree. But any class can do this hardcore!

@Starbuck_II: Right?! It's freaking cheap as hell as a raw material. Also telepathy technically is speaking, as I understand it, so I figured it would be ruled out as a result. However if I am wrong I'd love corrected. <3 Also thank you! Karai has been a long running toon of mine in other systems, and converting him over normally he'd of been a bard. I took a friends advice that Occultist fit him more thematically and boy is it true! This mech thing was just a happy accident!

As with most classes that give you an animal companion, it just stacks for levels for that one animal companion. I'm curious, if the phantom animal of the Totem Spiritualist would stack with anything like, Hunter levels as the same companion or if it would have to be a separate companion?

Karai Snillore wrote:

Dave Justus wrote:

And yes, at low levels your odds for UMD are possibly better, although a 3rd level character with this spell on the class list would only need to roll a 7 to succeed, which isn't all that far off from what the OP achieved with no special investment compared to a relatively huge investment.

I believe I am missing crucial information. Gonna dig up my core book to follow through but if you wouldn't mind helping me. I thought the caster level check was just a D20, and I havn't seen anything indicating a bonus. Then again I've mostly been looking at just the UMD block of text--and wasn't able to get much input on caster level check.

As the name implies, it's 1d20 + caster level.

Thank you Battletoad. I had at one point questioned about this and got, what is clearly now the wrong answer. This actually means straight caster level is far more useful as once you hit 4th or 5th level your chances are just getting better. I'll have to sit back and rewrite that section now that I have this information.

Making a list. Gonna have to do math to figure out percentages too and compare them. To get exactly whats what. I mean, the spell is only on the sorcerer/wizard, and witch list. So any other class wanting to do it still needs to go UMD. . . Right? I understand that correctly?

And yes, at low levels your odds for UMD are possibly better, although a 3rd level character with this spell on the class list would only need to roll a 7 to succeed, which isn't all that far off from what the OP achieved with no special investment compared to a relatively huge investment.

I believe I am missing crucial information. Gonna dig up my core book to follow through but if you wouldn't mind helping me. I thought the caster level check was just a D20, and I havn't seen anything indicating a bonus. Then again I've mostly been looking at just the UMD block of text--and wasn't able to get much input on caster level check.

Beautiful <3 BEAUTIFUL! <3 This bumps the Wizard's usefulness a lot. Cause scroll early in until you learn it then. BOOM. Knowing the spell first hand is a serious game changer!

@Dasrak: Beautiful! I had actually stopped looking at custom items as I was primarily focused on Society play (as it's all I do). However I should of freaking thought of adding that item in! Well now I have, thank you!

@Dave Justus: More Excellent Feedback! Thank you! Some of the rules being presented are things I believe I've simply not learned yet. I am fairly newish to correct Pathfinder play. I'm used to a bunch of err... Off people who don't even know what an attack of opportunity is. Moved lately and now I've been learning hard, via society play.

I'm currently scanning the documents to correct the numbers and include notes about the information you have given me. It is also very understood that this isn't the best thing for society play (I mean, alone you deal with small dungeons more then open fields). That is party of why I'm organizing and writing this guide. So that anyone who wants to play it, doesn't shoot in the dark.

I'm more then aware form scanning the forums that a handful of people have tried similar things before. I figured I'd take my hand at writing up something solid to read for it. Is there anything else I should know that I have incorrect as per the rules, as written?

@Dave Justus: Excellent Point! In fact I've had portions of this discussion before, so I'll go over what I can.

First, thank you for correcting me on the Occultist's stat bonus. I had misread and did not realize it could not be applied to Cha. I'll go to fix that shortly after this post.

Second, that is a very good observation about who should get to assign the construction points. I do assume the player does, mostly for ease of the GM--However in light of this I think I will bring this up prior to any run with this character first. See what they see/feel fit. Luckily the suggested material is masonry stone which is stone, and as it is a statue, and art by that can really take on any appearance. The key at that point is creativity. The way I've been playing it, is that while in-active it takes the form of a large rock, that all the parts have been folded in. When it animates it unrolls into it's normal form. I've been playing that, it has interchangeable parts, or pieces that can be slid into place. While a bit far fetched it does fit in with being a piece of art.

I think I should include a disclaimer encouraging that the talk of who should assign the points be brought up prior to each game. I imagine my GM will be excited and will likely roll on a die what I get. . . God the horror. My main DM is the devil. Let me tell you. Wonderful woman, but the devil.

For the most part, I've presented my suit as having claws, allowing for climb or burrow to be interchangeable, and recommend against flight as clumsy is a -8 and huge is a -8 to that check as well. Much rather activate it as part of a class ability. Plus interchangeable parts is not unreasonable, in a world of magic, cybernetics (though these aren't legal in PFS play they do exist), and crazy complex traps all over.

One way or the other. With this input I'm going to add some stuff to the guide! I think this helps excellently with being sure that it is all tip top!

@Captain Battletoad:Great point! This is actually the most painful part of the build. You toss a lot of gold at it, and as a result end up insanely powerful for the course of most adventures.

On average at low levels you make something from 500 to 700 gold an adventure. I advise GMing some scenarios to fill in the gaps. Later, in more mid level ranges like 5 to 7, you can start making upwards of 2K an adventure. While yes, you could just pay to give yourself magic items. The sheer amount of damage, health, and defense you get from going Mech are much larger then a lot of what you'd be able to buy.

It may not be the most gold efficient, but remembering that you have allies who will likely have their own survivability and capabilities in between, mixed with your own unused skills should easily sustain you to a point that you can throw away gold and as 11 to 12 tends to be an end point it's very unlikely you'll get to a point the suit will ever be useless.

Of course, you can also just play a Wizard and wait till your level 9. Be able to just cast it on your own. Has it's benefits and drawbacks. However I love the concept that with the Dangerously Curious trait, you can do this with any class. Really creates some crazy builds.

@Cartmanbeck: Also Great Point! I will work on creating a section for transportation immediately. I'll have to dig up some strength charts, but it's actually relatively simple just another initial gold drop along with some Prestige.

The Mech Pilot's Guide

Thank you everyone. Now that I know I can clarify for my player. Though I think he'll be ticked to know there is a typo.

Close but it gives me the same answer. I'll default to my DM's ruling but I wanted to know for future play outside of that.

See I'm using Possess Object to walk around as a statue, with my body inside. Works well but they brought up that condition and said it would end the duration. I wanted to be sure so I asked here.

This will be my second time running this scenerio that ended with a bit of confusion.

So there are a number of spells like Magic Jar and Possess Object, that's duration reads something along the lines of: Duration 1 hour/level or until you return to your body

The Until you return to your body has come up in discussion. A few people where assuming they could be in contact with the possessed body or object, with their original body.

A GM ruled that the text until you return to your body, included the physical contact between a possessed target and the original players body. Most, seemed to think that return to your body was only intended to explain the process of the player willingly returning their spirit via dropping the spell or having the possessed body die sending them back.

I could not seem to find answers by searching the text, return to your body, or searching the spells that say that in the duration.

So I'd like to get rules clarification on this, in case it comes up or to be 100% sure of it.

When in doubt overspend. If your calculations find that the weight you want costs 57 gp, spend 150 gp. I imagine that a statue is like a piece of art, so in Pathfinder terms you can spend as little or as much as you'd like. Provided its above the base cost of materials.

I may do that. I mean my primary GM (the one who runs like 95% of the games I attend by happen-stance) has already gone over a few kind of options with me. I just can't buy things from illegal books (so I can't use Ultimate Campaign for example base prices). Still, seems relatively easy for me to obtain the gold needed for the weight per coin.

I think you are going to run into some issues.

First, the familiar from Occultist is now temporary, only lasting 10 minutes per level. The playtest version could get a permanent one.
You cannot cast spells(period, even if they have no components) while possessing the object, and there is a good chance a random GM will extend that to spell-like and supernatural abilities. Especially considering the "new" versions of the spell from the occult book disallows "abilities" as well. It doesn't count as a creature when you aren't possessing it, so you can't hop out, cast your buffs and hop back in.

Basically, table variation can kill the build completely.

I actually get to play directly with the head of my state. Most of the GMs here default to her ruling, or discuss it. All of them seem to agree that it is 'as it is written'.

The rules only state, in the description that spells can't be used (which I don't plan to use. My plan is to save them for if the Object is taken down. Then I can come out of it from the inside, swinging with a full arsenal) but your other abilities are still in affect as it 'works like' Magic Jar which maintains your class abilities in the target. Anything that doesn't require a verbal component and is not a spell is usable. As per the written word.

I also plan to get everything signed off by the GMs I play with. I don't see too many, due to the days I attend but the ones I do play with are already fully aware of my build, have already agreed upon how it functions, and have told me the only thing I need to do is find the price and purchase what I need item wise.

I am, for all purposes and warnings. In the clear.

However... I do have backup characters. I intend to run my build by any GM I play with prior to the game, and if they approve of the mechanics I'll play. If there is too much of a difference and it is no longer that useful. I switch to another toon.

Though I would think by it's nature spell-like wouldn't work anyways. If my supernatural abilities do not carry, well that simply means I have more fire power for if my animated object goes down. My original plan was to build something explosive, so I would Melee most of the game and then upon going down pop out of the hatch and blow my well reserved spells and abilities.

--As well 30 Minutes (considering you have to be 3 to start this entire nonsense) is well more then enough time to convey a message. I can also pop a focus point to make a new one if need be. Plus scrolls are cheap especially as I level.

I understand the warning though, thank you. I've however been prepping for this for something like 2 months now to ensure everything is peachy keen.

Oh. Oh my thats a lot of replies. Okay! I feel I'm being dumb now. I'll go ahead and explain my build in full and my goals and plans.

First though some replies.

Unless an animated object uses a Construction Point to

be made of another material, all animated objects are made
of wood or material of equivalent hardness

So, I was assuming that based on this line, even if the material is of greater hardness it'd be treated as a lesser hardness once animated. I could be wrong, heck a GM may rule different. However I can't find where it says hardness of the animated object would be maintained. I mean it would make sense. It may also be taken as an object that is being animated of a non-matching material would not animate without the points spent.

Often, people ask part of the question, like, " What does a statue cost?" Instead of, "I want to posess an object using this spell, what are good options?" There are no solely original builds, since there are lots of people theorycrafting... So if you share your goals you're more likely to get useful answers.

I was hoping to just find an item that would fit. Seems it's unavoidable so I'll lay out my build here.

The Build

Thing is, this can be done with any class. However I believe it's most easily accessible with the Occultist. Paladin comes in close, due to what it does to this build.

According to the UMD entry, to cast a spell from a scroll is 20 + the caster level. In society play all scrolls come at their minimum level, which for Possess Object (and not Object Possession as one lasts hours and one lasts minutes) is 29. The cost places it at being available for purchase at level 3, Fame 9.

This is so you can access and buy Scrolls of Possess Object (only available on the spell list of Sorcerers, Wizards, and Witches)

The first thing you need to know is. The build focuses on early Optimizing of Use Magic Device.

Use Magic Device
Dangerously Curious offers +1 as a trait to UMD.
Skill Focus + 3 to UMD.
Magical Aptitude + 2 to UMD
Occultist gains starting at level 2, 1/2 his level to UMD.
Masterwork Tool (Magnifying Glass?) + 2 to UMD

Effectively by level 3, if you have 3 ranks in UMD and 3 to 4 Charisma modifier your UMD is around 15 to 16. Using your Sudden Insight from Occultist increases this to by 1/2 your Occultist level for a point of focus. 16 to 17 and if you happen to have the transmutation as well as the divine, put enough points into your weapon to increase the bonus from your modifier another +1.

Our result is roughly 17 to 18 before rolling UMD at level 3. At minimum to succeed to use the Scroll of Possess Object you need to roll a 12. Not bad, not good early in but at later levels it means your UMD becomes a freaking monster.

It does mean blowing through a lot of scrolls if your having a bad roll day (I'll need to clarify that, reading on some forums I've read people saying the scroll isn't used up on a failed UMD check and I am looking for the rules on that) However gold seems easiy enough to come by and I've not had many adventures that where longer then 9 hours.

The Concept Itself and other Info
The goal is to every game pop a scroll of Possess Object, which is a 9 hour effect. The object will be intended to have a hallow space to carry the body of my character, a Halfling.

If possible a huge size object or statue. As that is the maximum size via a scroll. Then utilizing the Occultist's Size Alteration (a Focus Power) one can increase one size category. Normally you can't do this but the Occultist's focus power works on any creature type. Other focus powers, as they are not spells and don't have verbal components can also be activated. Meaning while in the Object, one has the majority of their skills (The reason Paladin is also a really good choice).

Because you keep your Int, Wis, and Cha but use the Objects Str, Dex, and Con--these three stats are primarily dump stats except for feat qualifications. After all the goal is to never have to leave the Object except in the case you need to switch to a smaller object, your object has died and you need to fight yourself, or your caught by surprise outside your suit.

Another reason for the Occultist, is that it can gain a familiar. Taking a Raven it can convey simple messages, as it has an empathic link to you. At higher levels you also gain things like being able to fly, blast using wands, enhance weapons etc.

It also relys on your comrades being capable fighters. In the rare case your 'Suit' goes down. As you wont be a melee power house, but have likley taken some melee skills for your time in the suit.

It also brings in cool RP situations. As if the players need to travel fast and you have a Heavy Wagon, you can possess it and give it a burrow speed for the 9 hour trip. IF you can possess a boat of proper size, popping your flight would also make for a fun situation with your allies.

Basically I'm creating a 'Mech Piolet' who utilizes a mix of Power House and Utility at early levels with some difficulty.

I plan to write a guide later too. I've gone over quite a few clasess that would make this interesting. Like Vigilante, Witch, Hunter, heck even Rogue. It works well with Cavaliers if you take team work feats and you can even substitute as a Mount for them hilariously.

In Conclusion

I think I found something that may help. It appears a pound of Masonry Stone is 5CP. Simply buying enough equal to the weight of a statue of appropriate size could do.

IF all else fails. I buy a Heavy Wagon for 100 Gold and basically get my build without the imagery I'm going for. AS it is a Huge sized object.