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Liberty's Edge

Good catch Belafon.

Liberty's Edge

Azothath wrote:
Arkat wrote:
Claxon wrote:
{commenting on rules lawyering}
Agreed.

Commentary

LoL
People naturally will try to game the system. It isn't a problem and is more about trying to be clever (with some debate and rules lawyering). We all know PF1 is a Work of Art (not uniformly consistent, nor realistically accurate or precise) and not a science textbook or technical manual. GMs have to implement some interpretation and sense of Fair Play to make this rule heavy game of Let's Pretend work and that's their Home Game. No point in getting huffy about it, just point out that it is a game in your Home Game and remain open to debate.

With the people I know and with whom I like to play? Sure. Cleverness can be rewarded.

With some guy in the rule forum who tries to make a pretzel out of fair play and logic, way less.
(Not targeted specifically at anyone in this thread, it is a general remark.)

Liberty's Edge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Note that using your swift action consumes your immediate action until the start of the next turn. That is a meaningful and intended limitation for some abilities.

Other way around, using your immediate action off your turn consumes your next turn's swift action.

Facepalm. Always check.

Liberty's Edge

Pizza Lord wrote:

It is getting a bit off the topic, and I am aware of that FAQ, but that FAQ is specifically about spell recall and concentration DCs. Just because they use terms like in general (which doesn't mean 'all the time and for everything', it doesn't apply beyond the scope of what the FAQ is specifically about (pearls of power, magus recall, and concentration DCs).

They make that clear that they don't want slippery slopes or people implying one thing from a FAQ where an answerer is using terms or examples for the specific FAQ to be expanded into possible fringe or unintended areas. That would require another, specific FAQ about metamagic rods (which they might answer similarly or even use that FAQ you mentioned as a persuasive argument), but that's what it would require (for an official answer).

** spoiler omitted **...

I think you aren't considering the last rows of the FAQ. That is a general rule about metamagics, not a rule about "pearls of power, magus recall, and concentration DCs".

FAQ wrote:


In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

Your argument is that the disadvantage applies in full only "pearls of power, magus recall, and concentration DCs". For all other uses it is lessened.

That seems to go against the logic of the FAQ.

Liberty's Edge

Pizza Lord wrote:
After that, you'd need to check with your GM on how they view 'The wielder can use this three times per day' to see if they believe it applies the rod in total or that every creature in the world can use it three times per day.

Generally, items with limited daily uses apply that limit to all users. I think that the alternate interpretation that the Rod limit is actually "for each user" is a niche interpretation used by very few GMs.

As the CRB description of metamagic rods says "The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are" that interpretation is valid by RAW, but I think RAI is 3 uses/day.

Liberty's Edge

Note that using your swift action consumes your immediate action until the start of the next turn. That is a meaningful and intended limitation for some abilities.

Liberty's Edge

Possession doesn't change your type, as it is a temporary effect. Mind Swap, Greater, does change your type. So, the interaction with other effects changes.

And "Planar heritage also says you count as a human, so even if you swap races youre still a human and the feat still works." is circular logic. "I can have the feat because I am human because the feat says that I am human."

What do you are at the end, in your mind? An "Aranea, Human, Half Shadow Demon"?

Maybe you should go and read the threads about Tail terror and Tacial heritage: Kobold.

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Frostfire v3 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Frostfire v3 wrote:

1) I believe Paizo advising the players to do the switch is enought to convey their intent.

Did you expect them to write: Switch to possession, or else the next book will cost 20% more!

They said "consider" because the use of Possession instead of Magic Jar wasn't considered in the earlier books, so the change requires GM adjudication in all corner cases.

I wonder if that is because possession didn't exist at the time and it was printed just to substitute magic jar lol

And exactly because Possession didn't exist, the rules don't consider it.

That requires that the GM do it.

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Frostfire v3 wrote:
Not only that but the situation would still be present if instead of using the half-demon template for my example i said the character has the Planar Heritage:Nabasu or Half Demon feat that would be retained while possessing.

Again a reply that works if you use Possession but doesn't work if you use Mind Swap, Major. Maybe you should start two separate threads, one for each spell, as they have very different consequences.

Quote:

Planar Heritage

Source Planar Adventures pg. 31
You can trace your ancestry to a type of native outsider, even though you yourself are otherwise fully human.

Prerequisites: Human.

When you use Mind Swap, Major, you stop being human (unless you possess a human), so even this feat stops working.

What is the Half Demon Feat? Can you link it?

- * - * -

The whole reason why Mind Swap, Major can't be cast on members of a different race is that it will create all the problems we have in this thread.

"What is a race?" Never adequately defined by the rules.

"What do you retain when you change your type?" Again, not well defined.

"How does it work when you suddenly and permanently mix the body of a race with racial spellcasting levels and a mind with levels in the same class?" Neither Paizo nor Wizard of the Coast have ever touched that, AFAIK.

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Frostfire v3 wrote:

1) I believe Paizo advising the players to do the switch is enought to convey their intent.

Did you expect them to write: Switch to possession, or else the next book will cost 20% more!

They said "consider" because the use of Possession instead of Magic Jar wasn't considered in the earlier books, so the change requires GM adjudication in all corner cases.

Liberty's Edge

Frostfire v3 wrote:

3) Even tho it's called Half Fiend template all of the fiends you can become are indeed demons, like Half-Balor.

And funnily enough there is no such thing as an Half demon in pathfinder wich makes me truly believe they're the same thing.
I have no idea where you found that quote, it points to me being wrong but i couldn't find anything abuout these half demons, not even a statblock.

The Fourth Apotheosis would definitely work, didn't think it was necessary, it would have worked better for the example probably.
Planar heritage would have been better also, but i didn't want to get into the debate if a monster has a race or not.

Edit: I'm wrong on point 3, half fiend is the aqquired templare and if you get it from birth you're an half demon with all the cool stuff.

Half fiend

Scroll down and you will find the rules for half-demons.
As I already cited, it says:
Quote:
When a demon breeds with a mortal humanoid, the resulting birth is often a specific sub-category of half-fiend—a half-demon. Certain rituals can ensure that the resulting child is a half-demon rather than a half-fiend: such rituals are common in certain demon-worshiping cults, and some demons seek to sire or birth such children for their own sinister purposes.

And it continues with:

Quote:
Each of the following chapters presents adjustments to the half-fiend template when generating a specific half-demon; you can use these 10 examples to generate new half-demon templates for demons not detailed in this book

The sourcebook is the same one you used for the Possession and Improved Possessions feat, Demons Revisited, but earlier you missed the template.

For Mind Swap, Greater the Fourth Apotheosis, will not work, as you could possess only other demos of your race. When changing bodies you would get the same stuff you left behind.

Liberty's Edge

I see you continue to move the goal, one moment you cite Grater Possession, the next Mind Swap, Major.

When I did say:

Diego Rossi wrote:
When you take over permanently the aranea body,

I thought it was clear it was about Mind Swap, Major.

Frostfire v3 wrote:

2) Your ruling about being an Aranea is a little wierd since you still retain your Spell-Like abilities you got from being a Half-Fiend and your whole body is inside of the target since it uses Greater Possession.

If we move back to Possession it is correct, but when we speak of Mind Swap, Major we speak of an (almost) irreversible change of type. Only other spells that allow you to change your type will reverse the change.

The instantaneous change to aranea is the basis of your whole argument. At that point, you are an aranea, while the other guy is a half-fiend with your old body.

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Frostfire v3 wrote:
About Mind Swap not being Magic Jar, it's explained by paizo that possession is magic jar and that it should be substituted.

Incorrect. Paizo said that should consider substituting Mind Jar with Possession. That means that the GM should adapt everything that comes with that substitution. It isn't a 1 to 1 equivalency.

Just to point out a different problem. When you take over permanently the aranea body, you aren't any more a half-fiend human, you are an aranea.

As a consequence, you aren't any more a demon or a half-demon (the prerequisite for Demonic Possession) so Demonic Possession stops working. Problem solved, you don't have the aranea spells anymore.

Another little tidbit where you missed some rules:

Demonic possession wrote:
Prerequisites: Demon or half-demon, Cha 21, Wis 17

Half-fiend doesn't make you a half-demon, that is a specific template.

Half-demon wrote:
When a demon breeds with a mortal humanoid, the resulting birth is often a specific sub-category of half-fiend—a half-demon. Certain rituals can ensure that the resulting child is a half-demon rather than a half-fiend: such rituals are common in certain demon-worshiping cults, and some demons seek to sire or birth such children for their own sinister purposes.

From the text of the half-demon template, you can get it only at birth.

For your trick, you need the Fourth Apotheosis, which specifically transforms you into a demon.

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Frostfire v3 wrote:

Anyway, you guys figured out the interaction by yourselves but i'm quite unsure with Diego's ruling on having two separate sorcerer classes.

I believe that disregarding those rules creates more confusion l, with two separate pools instead of one.
It seems to me that the pc would end up being a monster with class levels in all senses and so those rules should apply to him.

The rules on the bestiary are for advancing a monster. You aren't advancing any monster, you are possessing one.

Frostfire v3 wrote:

Regarding human guise, the feat allows you to be treated as being a human for targetting purposes making the aranea effectively a human.

Mind Swap Major requires a target of your same race for a permanent (instantaneous, truly permanent) Magic Jar effect.
The improved possession feat improves all of your magic jar effects, not only the one from the SLA.

But you aren't a human anymore, you are an outsider (native).

Half Fiend template wrote:
Type: The creature's type changes to outsider (native). Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves.

Mind Swap Major uses Possession, not Magic Jar.

Quote:

Possession and Magic Jar

The old magic jar spell is unwieldy, particularly with respect to creatures like ghosts and shadow demons that don’t really use a jar at all. Consider replacing magic jar with the new possession spells for both spellcasters and monsters. Likewise, consider using spells based on possession rather than magic jar.

"Consider" means that the swap isn't automatic.

To put it in simple terms, you are taking pieces of rules from several splatbooks and mixing and matching them, disregarding some of the rules involved and taking for granted things that your GM should decide.
At this point asking a RAW opinion has little use. Ask your GM.
For a home game his opinion is what matters.

Liberty's Edge

Pizza Lord wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Returning to the op question, what sorcerer spell and spellcasting the aranea can do doesn't matter, as magic jar states: "You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body"

That mean that the aranea sorcerer spells aren't available at all.
I think Improved Possession does allow it.

You are right (and that shows why linking the abilities or posting them, as you did, matters), but it allows the use of the spells, it doesn't give the spellcasting class of the aranea, so they still don't cumulate.

It is very weird, as it is the only way I know (now) to have two sets of spells and caster levels for the same class at the same time.

Improved possesion wrote:
You can choose to activate a host body’s extraordinary abilities, supernatural abilities, spelllike abilities, and spells known or prepared.

You activate the host body's abilities. It works (more or less) like activating a magic item. The abilities are fixed, those of the body, and separated from those of the possessing mind.

Liberty's Edge

Pizza Lord wrote:

It would be easier if you gave a page link for Possession and Improved Possession or the sorcerer template or the apotheosis so I don't have to search through a bunch of rituals. Or I might be looking at Demonic Possession and that might not be the one you're talking about. Just for the future.

Improved Possession wrote:

Your ability to possess bodies is more powerful.

Prerequisite(s): Demonic Possession or shadow demon, Cha 25
Benefit: The duration of your magic jar spell-like ability increases to 24 hours. You can choose to activate a host body’s extraordinary abilities, supernatural abilities, spell-like abilities, and spells known or prepared.
Frostfire v3 wrote:
If you possess an Aranea, that has a racial sorcerer caster level of 5 does it stack with your sorcerer levels as per monster rules?

No. The creature's racial spell-like abilities are unrelated to class levels or even their own caster level (it could be lower than normally allowed to even use the ability). If the aranea themselves gained levels in the sorcerer class, they'd still be a 1st-level sorcerer with its own list of spell and spell per day (some of which could be the same as the race's SLA's). But they'd still have the CL 5 list, which would be unchanged.

If you took one over (with Improved Possession), you could use their SLA's at CL 5, whether you had a higher CL personally (or even no CL at all). If you Improve Possessed a 15th-level sorcerer (aranea or not), then you would be able to cast any of their prepared or known spells (limited to the slots they have remaining) at their CL; 15 rather than your 10. This is potentially very powerful, but it has to be that way because they didn't specify otherwise.

Frostfire v3 wrote:

"Step 2: Add Class Levels

Once you have determined the creature’s role, it’s time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature’s ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores.

Next, add the class levels to the monster, making all of the necessary additions to its HD, hit points, BAB, CMB, CMD, feats, skills, spells, and class features. If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice"

I am not sure what you are quoting here. You don't add class levels to a creature you possess. Its racial SLA's and CL are not associated with class levels. Nor would it suddenly gain an elite array or ability adjustments.

He is citing stuff from the Bestiary, p. 294-207, Monster Advancement. Totally unrelated to possessing a creature.

When advancing a monster by adding class level, innate spellcasting that says things like "Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 5th; concentration +8)" increases, but in a somewhat weird way. As it has the spell of a 5th level sorcerer, adding 1 level in sorcery the aranea will give it the spell of a 6th level sorcerer but the bloodline powers of a 1st level sorcerer, and the aranea would have to choose a bloodline.
It is not possible to have two different sets of sorcerer spells at the same time.

The rules for advancing monsters are more guidelines that RAW rues, as there are lots of strange interactions and problems with evaluating the actual power of the monster after the changes.

Returning to the op question, what sorcerer spell and spellcasting the aranea can do doesn't matter, as magic jar states: "You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body"
That mean that the aranea sorcerer spells aren't available at all.

Liberty's Edge

Unbegreiflich wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Unless it says otherwise in its description, a Polymorph effect should stay active on a corpse until its duration expires.

A spell doesn't recheck if it is affecting a valid target after it has been cast (again, unless its specific description says otherwise).
with that simply put the dead chaos beasts in a bag of holding and cast True Resurrection to get your friends back. Use an Antimagic Field to get their stuff off the corpses. Once the antimagic ends cast Create Greater Undead on the corpses to get your permanently transformed devourer chaos beast(s) under your command. Just don't ever cast Break Enchantment on them... they are basically immune to future exposure to the Larva's Maddening Song and Liberated Flesh effects.
Resurrection wrote:
This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased's time and place of birth or death is the most common method).

The body hasn't been destroyed, and the spell target says "dead creature touched".

I don't think you will create a new body by hiding the original one in a bag of holding.
Either the spell fails because you aren't touching the existing body, or it revives the existing body.

It is interesting to note that True Resurrection doesn't say where the new body replacing a destroyed one will appear. As it has a range of touch, I suppose it will appear in touch range.

Then there is the little problem that you are assuming that the Antimagic Field suppression effect will revert the transformation into chaos beast. I fail to see where it says it will do that. The interaction between Antimagic and permanent effects is tricky, but AFAIK it doesn't reverse, even temporarily, permanent changes that require specific spells to be overcome.
To make an example, energy drain is an SU effect, but being in an antimagic field doesn't temporarily suppress it.

Liberty's Edge

Unless it says otherwise in its description, a Polymorph effect should stay active on a corpse until its duration expires.
A spell doesn't recheck if it is affecting a valid target after it has been cast (again, unless its specific description says otherwise).

Liberty's Edge

I wouldn't consider a creature at -con hp destroyed. Doing that would mess with Raise Dead, which requires a mostly intact corpse. A "destroyed" corpse would be missing large portions of the body, and probably will not be a valid target for Raise Dead.

Liberty's Edge

There is no definite way to get a Tulpa, so, like with any other non-standard creature, getting one is a matter of the story the GM and players are making.

The reply to all your questions is "Ask your GM." If you are the GM, the answer: "Decide what works better in your game."

Liberty's Edge

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Confusion is a big problem, I think. You are constantly attacked, so you have to attack back, you never get to choose your action. As I see it, you should attack the creature (so it's total hp), and you will not be trying to cut a way to escape, so you would not be opening a way to escape.
After the creature dies it can change, as you will be damaged only if there is an acid effect or other environmental effect, not by muscular action.

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A weapon is an item, not a creature.

AoN wrote:
Hit Points: An object’s hit point total depends on what it is made of and how big it is (see Table 7–12, Table 7–13, and Table 7–14). Objects that take damage equal to or greater than half their total hit points gain the broken condition (see Appendix 2). When an object’s hit points reach 0, it’s ruined.

So, if you apply the weapon stats, you need to apply all of them, you can't make a cut-and-paste where you take a piece of a rule and a piece of another, forgetting the pieces you don't like.

Liberty's Edge

What are your weapon stats?
Not your class HP and constitution bonus. It is "body made by flesh and bones". Hardness 0, maybe 10 hp. At most, you can double those HPs.

Then there is the interesting corollary of this line of thinking. Your body can be sudered.
"I sunder his right arm weapon!" and chop!, away with your right arm.

Obligatory Just a flesh wound from Monthy Python.

Edit:

Quote:
A weapon that bears this rune multiplies its hit points by 2, as if it were one size category larger than it actually is. Placing more than one rune of this type on a weapon has no effect.

Another corollary: it is a virtual increase in size. So you can't benefit from other effects that count as virtual increases in size.

Liberty's Edge

Quote:

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body.

...
If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

RAW, you don't get to choose what changes. All your "gear" is affected. Included magic equipment.

Nowhere in the rules is defined what is your "gear".

I consider something gear everything that fulfills the following requirements:
- whatever you can transport within the limit of your normal encumbrance (i.e., up to your heavy load);
- is not affixed to an unmovable object;
- if you stow it away it will not stick out of your square (weapons are an exception, long spears and co. transform with you);

So, a rope binding you will be gear and transform. After the transformation, it will not limit your movement, but it will return to do so when the transformation ends.
A chain linked to a wall will not transform.

Pretty weird, but it is magic.

Liberty's Edge

As the size requirement for grappling was removed years ago, a grapple target becoming larger shouldn't break a grapple, but it makes way harder to maintain it.

With rope or chains, if the pinned/grappled creatures try to become larger I would have them make a check to burst the restains, using the new size and strength. If the check succeeds, the shape change succeeds, if it fails, the shape change is canceled before it damages the used (and the daily use/charge/spell is used up).

Note that not all shape changes will have problems. If a manacled human turns into an octopus, even a large one, the manacles will simply slide off. An octopus has no wirsts and hands.

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Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Also, the party should have been able to notice the fact that it was healing. It’s wounds closing up should have been a clue that it was not dead.

Not all healing is automatically recognizable, especially in a creature so different from a human as an ooze.

With humans:
"That guy has stopped bleeding, it is because his heart has stopped beating, or because he is healing?" "Check his pulse."
Ozee:
"It has stopped leaking fluids, it is dead?" "Eeeee.., no idea."

The typical adventurer solution is to apply unnecessary roughness to the enemy's body after he fell.

Liberty's Edge

If you have a 90% chance of success on every single check, the overall chance of success is less than 23%, Not something on which I would stake my character.
With a 95% chance of making each check the overall chance of success is 55%. That is something I would attempt if I have a way to reroll a failed check or a failed save.

The time needed is relevant, as the chance of success would be modified by fatigue and failure of long-lasting spells.

Liberty's Edge

RAW, it is irrelevant. Normally it is something you do "off-screen", not part of an adventure, so you resolve it with a series of checks and the expenditure of the necessary resources.

It changes if the GM wants to make it an adventure, with encounters while flying (but probably that will make it harder to be successful). In that instance I would use 3).

Liberty's Edge

Frostfire v3 wrote:
My idea was to also turn off possession, retaining your human body and the dragon copy and then turning off Bilocation..
Possession wrote:
As a standard action, you can shift freely back to your own body regardless of range, so long as it remains on the same plane. If the host’s body is killed, you return to your own body and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If your body is slain, when the spell expires or the host’s body is killed, you are slain. It is possible to cast this spell on a new target from within another creature’s body; this resets the duration. You still return to your original body (not any intermediate body) when you take a standard action to do so or the spell’s duration expires. Returning to your body ends the spell. Creatures whose souls are their bodies, such as incorporeal undead and non-native outsiders, use the effects of greater possession instead.

You can't "turn off possession" and "retain your human body and the dragon copy". When you turn off Possession you return to your original body. You do not return to any other body. Both bodies created by Bilocation are now under the control of the dragon mind.

Bilocation clearly states that it doesn't create a second spell, but the same spell is shared on both bodies.

Biloction wrote:
The two bodies are affected by attacks, spells, and effects as though they were one person,

so, when you decide to "turn off the possession" it apples to both bodies.

Liberty's Edge

As it is a Swift action, its use is limited to one opponent/round, even if you get multiple critical hits with the spell.

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OmniMage wrote:

To further add, I don't think glow is defined as a light source. I'm not sure if you can see something that is glowing in the dark. Mild, intense, whatever. At least thats my RAW interpretation. I'd rather house rule that the spell had no visual glow effect than be something that breaks invisibility.

This might be a case where the fluff interferes with the function of the spell.

Quote:
glowing with a chaotic blast of multicolored hues

It doesn't illuminate anything, but it emits light. It will help in pinpointing the invisible creature square (but it will not negate the Invisibility).

I would have people make a Perception check to see the effect, the DC depending on the ambient light. If you want a paragon, it would be like a cigarette ember. Bright enough to allow a sniper to hit you at night, but unable to give any meaningful illumination.
As it is a secondary effect of the spell I would make the modifier way lower than Faerie Fire, but note that Faerie Fire does more than allow to pinpoint the square. It completely negates the concealment.

Liberty's Edge

FAQ wrote:
Special abilities exist (and more are likely to appear in Ultimate Intrigue) that specifically facilitate a spellcaster using chicanery to misdirect people from those manifestations and allow them to go unnoticed, but they will always provide an onlooker some sort of chance to detect the ruse.

The FAQ says that "special abilities exist" that can hide the spellcasting. That implies that some abilities existed before the FAQ. Secret sign seems to be one of those.

Liberty's Edge

Name Violation wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
I am not sure if a 10' tear in space can suck in a Colossal (30' x 30') creature. The Portable hole/Bag of holding trick creates a gate, so something with boundaries. You will get table variation.
Spaghettification
There is no gravitational field in effect. And the tidal forces in the Spaghettification break and compress things, something that the trick doesn't do.

" any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there"

Doesn't say a size limit. Just a yes/no check
Is it within 10 ft? If yes then thing happens

That is why I said " You will get table variatin".

Does a creature that is 10, 20, and 30 feet away count as one that is "within a 10-foot radius"?
If it was an effect originating from the creature, yes, it would.
For an outside effect, it is less clear.
A creature being half in and half out from an Anti Magic Field will be immune to magic?
So, I think that different GMs will give different answers.

Liberty's Edge

Name Violation wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
I am not sure if a 10' tear in space can suck in a Colossal (30' x 30') creature. The Portable hole/Bag of holding trick creates a gate, so something with boundaries. You will get table variation.
Spaghettification

There is no gravitational field in effect. And the tidal forces in the Spaghettification break and compress things, something that the trick doesn't do.

Liberty's Edge

I am not sure if a 10' tear in space can suck in a Colossal (30' x 30') creature. The Portable hole/Bag of holding trick creates a gate, so something with boundaries. You will get table variation.

Liberty's Edge

I don't think that using a rogue talent to get a familiar makes it a class feature, so, RAW, it shouldn't work.
However, I don't see any balance problem in allowing it.

The stuff about the Druid level:

Quote:
but the rogue’s effective wizard level is her rogue level –4.

So, you get an effective Wizard level of Rogue-4.

Quote:
The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were 4 levels higher,

So far, so good, you get an increase of your effective Wizard level.

Quote:
to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level

Now you get a camp. But your effective Wizard level doesn't care about a cap to your effective Druid level.

Strictly RAW, you have a cap that doesn't do anything as it targets the wrong class.
RAI, it clearly means "your effective maximum level for the feature that gives you the familiar is your character level", and so it applies to the effective Wizard level you get from the Rogue talent.

Liberty's Edge

zza ni wrote:
it can do skills checks, but only up to dc 10 of skills that can be done untrained, which is why with craft(cooking) or profession (chef) i stated it need to be the character who cook and only order it to do simple errands that the skill check shouldn't count on, without relaying on it's 'skills'.

Cooking can be done without rank in the skill. An Unseen Servant taking 10 can do it (I don't see anything saying that it can't). It would be an average meal, but nothing terrible.

RAW a Commoner has 2 skill points + INT bonus (3 if human). I doubt that the typical commoner has 1 rank in a craft or profession (to earn his money), 1 in Profession Cook (to cook his/her meals), 1 in Profession Baker to cook his bread, and 1 in Profession Maid (to keep the house in order). Almost certainly he will take 10 for all of them (or roll a dice and burn water one time in twenty). A person with a rank in a skill is as a minimum a well-trained apprentice for it, not the average guy doing it at home.

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Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Mage hand states you can move the object, but does not give any detail or limitations on how you can move the object. Prestidigitation also allows you to do a lot of things Open/close will allow you to open and close objects of up to 30 pounds. Spark can be used to light fires.

Check with your GM about using cantrips for what you want to do. You might need a few cantrips to do everything you want, but I personally would not have a problem if one of my players wanted to do so.

Mage Hand wrote:
You point your finger at an object and [b]can lift it and move it at will from a distance[b]. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell's range.

The spell says that you lift and move. Not "manipulate". It is a very limited tractor/pressor beam, nothing more.

Unseen servant is what you want for fine manipulation that doesn't require a skill. There are a couple of versions that create a servant with a specific skill, so researching an "Unseen Cook" or an "Unseen Thief" is possible (but I would limit them to the skill rank the spellcaster has in the relevant skill).

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My group had a very efficient kobold alchemist. He was a good support character and the bombs don't care about the thrower size.

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Theoricrafting, as my group hasn't ever fought it.

It is extremely variable, depending on the characters' builds. And there are 2 slightly different versions of the Tarrasque, the one in the Bestiary and the one in Inner Sea Gods. The Inner Sea Gods has the Spawn of Rovagug subtype with the hibernation, regeneration, and unstoppable rules.

In an open field, 2 flying gunslingers with +4 magical beast bane rifles could bypass its DR and deal enough damage to beat its regeneration 40. At 80 or more feet into the air, they would be outside melee range. They would need a dedicated healer for each of them, someone able to cure the damage from the spine volley in one round.
Then you would need someone with Transmute Rock to Mud to entomb it while it is unconscious and force it into hibernation.

Not easy, but a purposely built group could do that at level 13. I doubt it will be a fun campaign.

A more normal group? They would need the ability to tank something like 200 hp/round, several +4 bane weapons, or minor artifacts, and again a way to force it into hibernation while dealing with its SR of 36 and carapace. That means something like level 18.

As you see, it hugely builds dependant.

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Trokarr wrote:
Snake Style let’s you substitute a sense motive check as an immediate action for your AC or Touch AC.

It works only once a round and requires a skill investment, but against that attack, it can give a really good AC.

How do you apply it when a single action allows multiple attacks?
As an example, if a high-level mage casts a Scorching ray and fires 3 rays?
RAW, it works only against one, but it seems underwhelming.

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AwesomenessDog wrote:

Delay is specifically a "no action" action, so whether that means you have to do anything to choose to delay or not is basically open to GM discussion.

Delay wrote:

By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.

You never get back the time you spend waiting to see what’s going to happen. You also can’t interrupt anyone else’s action (as you can with a readied action).

The bolded sections can ambiguously be interpreted to lean both ways for "you do get your actions back" or "you don't" as if you had delayed when you return from stun, paralysis, unconsciousness, etc.

Personally, I allow them to because you haven't spent any actions and now you suddenly can, whereas it would seem if you were meant to only act a whole turn later after those conditions are removed, they would otherwise state shifting initiative.

Quote:
When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat.

Delaying is a voluntary act. Stun is meant to prevent voluntary acts, so I wouldn't allow a character to delay while stunned.

If the consequence of being stunned is "my actions are delayed", abilities that stun an opponent for a round become way less powerful.

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Masalic wrote:
Chain shirts imo just come down to common sense. If we know chainmail exists there's no reason to think someone didn't think to make a smaller more compact version of a chainmail

We can use the same argument for leather armor.

We know that we had cuir boli lamellar armor, we know we had hide armor, and we know that a heavy leather jacket (like the ones used by bikers) can protect fairly well from claws and bites. So it is common sense that someone developed a low-cost leather armor version for the peasant infantryman.
After all, the Babylonians used cloth armor, and that didn't protect that much.
During the XVI and XVII centuries, a lot of armies used leather uniforms. They were good enough against spent bullets.

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As a GM, I would say that, if the fighter chooses to take his readied action, he chooses to be subject to the pit dangers.
He gets the benefit of making his readied action, and he pays the drawback of "ending" his turn on the border of the pit (assuming he doesn't move away).

Sadly, the Pit line of spells has plenty of problems.
Can you cast it on a space occupied by walls, trees, and other unmovable items?
Does it deforms local spacetime like a black hole, so the original terrain becomes the rim of the pit? Or instead it "sends" the original terrain away?

The basic concept is interesting (but most of the higher-level spells are too powerful) but it would require a lot of explanations to be applied consistently at every gaming table.

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Remember that, if you haven't already used up your move, you can take a 5' step together with the readied action.

The fighter can choose not to take the readied action and move away when his turn comes, too.

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Masalic wrote:

Unfortunately, i can't find any evidence of leather armor that wasn't lamellar in nature. I want to believe solid one-piece leather armor existed but i can't find anything that isn't immediately disputed.

Besides the artists' depictions (that aren't accurate at all), whoever said that leather armor is a solid one-piece of leather?

The description in the CRB is:
"Leather armor is made up of multiple overlapping pieces of leather, boiled to increase their natural toughness and then deliberately stitched together".

The main problem is that most leather armors have rotten away, so there is little historical proof. Same problem for chain shirts, BTW. They rusted to nothing. AFAIK we have some rings but nothing complete.

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Most real-world armor was layered, and the overall effect of the layers is what we get in the game. You don't wear plate armor without some form of padding under it.
As an example, half-plate says: "Half-plate armor combines elements of full plate and chainmail", and those don't mention wearing a gamberson under them, but it is practically mandatory to wear one. Otherwise, blunt force damage from maces or war hammers would be transmitted to the body with full force.

Leather armor existed, it was made of boiled leather. And the best approximation of the Roman lorica segmentata is the banded mail.

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Diego Rossi wrote:
PumpkinCake wrote:

Actually, I found the perfect counterpoint. Path of Glory.

Path of Glory wrote:
Allies that end their turns on a glowing square (including one who falls unconscious in the square) are healed of 1 point of damage.

Fighter: I delay my action and heal 1 point. I'll take my turn right now. I delay my action and heal 1 point. I'll take my turn right now...

or

Fighter: I ready an action to draw my weapon if I see a goblin. My turn ends, so I heal 1 point of damage. My readied action just went off, so I draw my weapon. My turn ended again, so I heal 1 point of damage.

Obviously, this would not fly. Good effects that trigger at the end of your turn don't trigger twice, so why would bad ones?

If you delay, you don't take a turn at all. You are playing with the limit of language when it is clear how it is meant to work.

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PumpkinCake wrote:

Actually, I found the perfect counterpoint. Path of Glory.

Path of Glory wrote:
Allies that end their turns on a glowing square (including one who falls unconscious in the square) are healed of 1 point of damage.

Fighter: I delay my action and heal 1 point. I'll take my turn right now. I delay my action and heal 1 point. I'll take my turn right now...

or

Fighter: I ready an action to draw my weapon if I see a goblin. My turn ends, so I heal 1 point of damage. My readied action just went off, so I draw my weapon. My turn ended again, so I heal 1 point of damage.

Obviously, this would not fly. Good effects that trigger at the end of your turn don't trigger twice, so why would bad ones?

If you delay, you don't take a turn [i]at all[/i[]. You are playing with the limit of language when it is clear how it is meant to work.

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Joynt Jezebel wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

There was GDS "Space: 1889" too. You would have to adapt the rules, but it was a Barsoom-like setting with a sword and Victorian mad tech theme.

"Space: 1889" was an excellent game that deserved more players than it got.

It had a Barsoom-like setting but only on Mars. We flew there in our zeppelin. The rest of the solar system was different.

I hadn't it, but read some material in Challenger, the GDW magazine. Seeing GDW going under because TSR sued them was very sad, they had a good magazine and good products.

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