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See that's the thing. I don't hate the ring, in fact I think it's a very cool idea and visual. However, the power level of the ring vs. the cost I don't agree with. 12k is much more in the ballpark at least.
Thank you.
Yeah, sorry was editing while doing other stuff around the house.
as a tiny critter you are in the same square as they are to attack, so don't have a height advantage. Do you have a reference to that? While I see the argument the only reference I've ever seen is "higher ground" (in the rule books) for the height advantage. If the flying creature is on your head it has higher ground, but is in your square to attack is the one I've seen run. (Mind you it was tiny fey attacking a medium creature) Some other considerations for height advantage Does a large creature get height advantage against a medium on flat ground? (No) Does a medium creature on a mount get height advantage against a medium creature? (Yes) Large? (yes) Does a Medium creature on a table or chair get hieight advantage against a medium creature? (Yes) Large? (Yes) At least in the way I've seen it run, it is actually where your feet are relative to each other (that is the ground) that determines height advantage. Though I'd imagine there is a lot of table variation.
Except this part which is correct is still a lot for the price:. +1 from height, you're flying take advantage of it.
Except this part which is correct is still a lot for the price:
And isn't even close to the full abilities of the ring. And no being stuck in bird form isn't a detractor when you want to be in bird form for all the benefits.
It boggles my mind when I see a spellcaster who hasn't cast mage armor before the fight. Or you know, 8PP-10PP - which even saving for a raise and negative level removal is completely reasonable, and I still have the 10k to spend on other things.
Reduce person - gets a small sized creature to tiny, 1 minute per potion. Keep your ability to speak and use weapons. Ring - Any sized creature to tiny, works on outsiders, works 7 times per day at up to 70 minutes per day, likely (but not guaranteed) increase in movement speed, Flight, low-light vision, Natural Armor, a bigger increase in DEX.
Ok, then remove your armor, it's a buff - you had to put it on (and get help to do so). What's your AC now? Both Mage Armor and Barkskin have far longer durations than the 10 minutes in birdshape so there's no reason not to consider them, if you're considering your fighter to have his armor on. +Dex + Wis race, dump CHA, STR, INT if you want. - Not particularly hard. Tengu, Asura-Spawn Tiefling, Garuda-Blooded Aasimar all come to mind.
A,B,C,D,E While A,B, and C are incorrect rulings (and I caught B and C, I missed referring to the Polymorph rules to find A until it was pointed out to me) I've seen all 3. D) 34 on an Unchained Monk with the ring is completely manageable, without combat expertise or fighting defensive for a 17k investment. E) Not sure why the line is there but ok, yep seen it.
Ok, but let's separate two concepts - value and cost. Value would be the value to your situation versus the value of something else taking into account the cost of that item/feat/trait versus using that gp/feat slot/trait for something else. (In other words cost benefit analysis). The cost is what the item costs - which the Build a Magic Item guidelines are literally the guidelines for determining . Also, I wouldn't build around the item either, but that doesn't mean 1. it can't be done or 2. it doesn't still benefit a number of those builds or 3. builds that have no use for it except the flight and +1 deflection modifier. A halfling with reduce person and a fox-form kitsune still don't fly. You even bought the item - with a fox-form kitsune so obviously there is something else beneficial there. Personally, at 8k I believe it would still be a steal for many builds for the functionality you get, but at least that cost equates to a tougher decision and later entry.
Actually using BS II instead of BS IV makes a big difference, it matches the CL .That doesn't follow item creation rules. You jumped to the step that uses the charts and formulas. Before that price it based on other items and its power. It has more uses and the drawback of locked into a form, but is comparable to other items like featherscale clock. The cloak costs less for the poly, 1500 gp, after removing some other abilities. So more uses with limitations costs 2000 gp. Ok let's assume for a second that the Featherscale cloak is a good comparison and correctly priced. Can I use it to evaluate the Ring, is that acceptable? If so:
The Cloak costs the competence bonus to swim (bonus squared * 100) - has to be the main component as it makes up more than half the final cost + 1.5 * feather fall + 1.5 * hide from animals + 1.5 * the polymorph effect 4000 = (5*5*100) + 1.5(1*1*1800*(1/5)) + 1.5(1*1*1800*(1/5)) + 1.5(3*5*1800*(1/5)*x (some modifier to express the limited versatility)) 4000 = 3580+8100x 420=8100x x ~ .05 So now let's price the ring of 7 lovely colors (and use half the modifier since you only get half the forms - is that fair? (despite that you get tiny sized which beast shape 1 can't, and all that)) Beast shape 4 - since as you say it doesn't matter + Ring of Protection +1 multiply whichever is lower by 1.5
Does that matter? Let's see you couldn't buy it until level 5.1 (at the lowest) instead of level 4 due to fame restrictions. It also makes up a much larger chunk of your wealth (on average you don't get 4k in a scenario until the 6-7 tier or so, and 7200 until the 10-11 tier - Why look at the per scenario gold? I feel that is when you consider purchases like these items, unless they are so integral to your build that you are willing to save gold for them). Next, it makes the item compete with larger ticket items: 4k - stat belt (which the ring is taking care of for you potentially and will stack with later), cloak of resistance from 1 to 2 (or straight to 2, ring gets you the reflex aspect, and will stack later), amulet of mighty fists, armor or shield from 1 - 2 (or straight to 2, again the ring does this for you but won't stack - though monks don't have that option anyway) etc., 7200 - cloak from +3 - +4, same for armor (or nearly from nothing to 3), a weapon from +1 to +2, etc. Personally I feel the modifier is low in both cases for the utility you gain, and doesn't account for any discounting that items tend to get in one of the main slots versus the ring slot which has a lower intrinsic value with less items to compete with and 2 available ring slots). And I understand that it's not something that is just math there is an art to it, and adjusting prices to make them "correct". However, in practice I don't feel that this ring meets the standards of being appropriately priced for what it gives. Others do.
Also, thanks for the polymorph reference, which I looked at you are correct the fly speed takes the lesser so only fly 40 from the raven form, which unfortunately I had missed when looking at beast shape IV and how it was originally explained to me.
Ok, if that's all true, then you also can't claim it's only off by a couple of thousand. You apparently have no way of knowing. Also, not sure when we stopped playing with a party in PFS. Just like every other remotely relevant character at that level. Huh? Every character has a 4k option that gives them a 50% increase in damage over not having it. Illuminate me.
No. An item that doubles the damage on a greatsword is far different than an item that doubles the damage on a starknife. One makes an option good, one makes it completely overpowered. And this is an item that allows a level 8/9 character a 50+% increase on damage on a full attack which you're getting all the time since you'll be able to full attack on a charge or a 5 foot step and you're flying so charging is easy. Oh and you're only dealing with DR once. And you're getting increases to Initiative, AC, Reflex Saves, lowlight vision in addition.
The mask is off by a factor of 10, the ring is a grand or two short. Prove it. Show me a price, and the argument that gets you there, I assume it will be some mitigating cost to the usefulness of Beast shape since you are limited to a single form, etc. Give me a number. I picked 1/20th or 95% off and it's still off by a factor of 2 or 3.
The problem with this (and why I didn't mention it originally) is that those decisions have traditionally been made by the Paizo Development Team not PFS and generally only when there is a reprinting. Asking for a ban was mostly as a way to deal with it more quickly while hoping for a pricing change/errata in the future.
Roleplay decisions and limiting to worshipper's single god do not mitigate any of the various abuses that can stem from this item (or others). It might limit some players usage of the item, but if you really intended to exploit some item, is it that hard to come up with a reason to follow Shelyn or to roleplay how you worship her? It's a perceived limitation that is functionally meaningless. At this point I'd rather not start limiting something (the ISG content) that's been open game for so long. (Though I could certainly have seen the argument for doing so originally)
Not really, it's actually fairly mathematically provable No in fact I did compare it to similarly priced items, a couple posts down. If you just look at the polymorph ability you need to compare with 1300k or less items since the added ring of protection is part of the design and can be fully accounted for in the math. That not withstanding, if you were to compare with 4k items, you should start by looking across slots as they make bad comparisons - cloaks/headband/belt tend to be cheaper than they should for the utility as it's a single slot with what are generally considered must have items, otherwise 4k belt of +2 Dex, well the ring gets you +4 that stacks with belts for 70 minutes a day (in 7 10 minute intervals) which even in an AP is most if not all of the fighting in an adventuring day. 4k gp rings - there are two others, one lets you cast 3 bloodrager bloodline spells per day without expending them by using extra rounds of rage and a ring of counterspells. - Slightly less expensive you've got the the ring of stars and stairs, that's a ring of feather fall with a 1/day magic missile and an illusory butterfly (actually quite good for the price - but exactly priced correctly, if we consider the 1 minute buttefly illusion free), a ring that lets you ignore staggered 5 rounds/day and others none of which have the added ring of protection effect. Other slot items that cost about 1300gp to compare with (just for arguments sake) - Beneficial Bandolier - banned already, Quick Runner's Shirt - banned already, Meridian Belt - give you 4 ring slots, but only 2 are active at any one time, Endless Bandolier - pretty much a slotted efficient quiver for gunslingers, Dissident's Gloves - arcane mark for divine casters (in flavor only), Claws of the Ice Bear bonuses to Climb and Acrobatics, negate penalties on slippery surfaces, and 3 rounds per day of spider climb. Boots of the Cat (min damage from falls), and Boots of Soft Step (decreases tremorsenses ability to "see" you), etc. There are a couple of good items in there, but none provide even close to the same amount of utility.
That amount is much closer to what I believe the item should actually be priced at than it's current number. I actually think a more reasonable step than banning would be something along the lines of Beast Shape II, 1/day, Must be a worshipper of Shelyn, but only one of those lines is really a PFS team decision and they haven't made that ruling about any of the other items in the book. So, I feel that a ban (possibly only in the interim) is a valid request.
Sure, except that rings of protection +1 are nearly ubiquitous, while far fewer actually do upgrade them as the double bonus squared starts getting very expensive at about the same time where monsters attack really starts to raise and make higher ACs moot.
As for the provoking. 1 provocation, just 5 foot stepping still can provoke. And all of this provoking you can still use acrobatics to get around, which you get a bonus to from the DEX, and you don't provoke from moving through the square of anything large or bigger.
Or you know just be an unchained rogue with the ring. Which you can get at level 4, and you already have DEX to damage, with room to spare with a feat or a level to dip to get Improved Unarmed Strike. And then you are unarmed striking in bird form for 1d3+9 damage, can't flank, get an AOO every time you move into someone's square to attack, and your beak does 1d3- more than three damage because the rogues dex to damage only works with one weapon until level 11 Sure, and if that one weapon is unarmed strikes? (They can be finessed) Can't flank, 1 level dip into mouser. And only provokes against medium or smaller opponents. But either way, I'm done arguing, I've stated my case and given numbers and examples.
Except most of that post actually goes to disprove his concluding statement. (Not to say it isn't without merit, or a nice post to reference) In fact it mostly explains decisions that don't seem at first glance to be mathematically relevant but are actual variables in the calculation that as designers that have some mental codification for but not a set number. (Increasing CRs or not due to DR and it's type, comparisons with average monster stats, lower HP on things with more immunities, etc.) and it's a fairly incomplete quote taken out of context, but even without the context the full quote and your quote read differentlyShow me some math, any math that actually makes that argument and I'll concede your point.We can't provide math for everything We can't provide math for everything, it would be too long and would still allow people to cheese-out monsters to be unbeatable or put together fail-combos where the monster is way too weak for its level despite matching what's on the charts. And I know that there is an undefined element in the math of the ring, I even call it out, and make up a number for it for sake of comparison.
It literally doubles the expected damage value of at least 1. Nor, does it even close to account for how incredibly underpriced the item is. Not really, it's actually fairly mathematically provable. Discount the fly if you want, (I won't). But it's fly with double the movement speed (or triple depending on build coming in), low-light vision, a bonus to DEX to increase your Initiative if you do get spotted, a fairly innoucous shape (if you get seen), and a +8 size modifier to stealth. - So let's see under the effects of the ring you've picked up Flight, possibly another vision, +10 to stealth and +2 to Initiative. - 7 times a day for 70 total minutes oh and it's a +1 ring of protection on top. Let's not even try and compare it to anything ridiculous like trying to match the duration and times per day. As a rogue you want to mimic just those effects for scouting you're looking at 1/day 2000gp for the ring of prot (1 time cost) + potion of fly 750gp + Elixir of Hiding 250 gp. Scenario # 2 do it again, potion of fly and elixir of hiding - another 750 and 250 gp. In two scenarios, doing this once per day you've met the cost of the ring, in other words the ring has paid for itself already. Oh and you still didn't account for low-light vision or the fact that you could have stacked elixir of hiding and the ring, or the initiative bump. So yes, please tell me how it's not underpriced. As for the casting, it can actually be done in that form for a little investment/creativity (spell selection + a ring or a spell, or the addition of a metamagic feat).You need eschew materials, your other ring slot/the spell, and still spell (since you probably can't use the rod). .. Or you can just be a druid and do the same thing, without functionally dropping your spell levels by 1. Sure, but I wasn't that concerned about a caster using it in the first place. Frankly, if a caster wants to do something like this they already can.
Or you know just be an unchained rogue with the ring. Which you can get at level 4, and you already have DEX to damage, with room to spare with a feat or a level to dip to get Improved Unarmed Strike. - So yeah it doesn't hit it's full ability until level 4. What build really does, 4-7 is where most actually hit their stride and on the way there you're still a perfectly viable class (who btw is doesn't really come together until level 3 anyway). I understand that the item is more limited than any of it's requirements, but it mathematically can't be so limiting that they reduce it's value by 98+%. Show me some math, any math that actually makes that argument and I'll concede your point. But I can't find it. It's why in my original post I looked at just Fly as part of the argument. Which as a 1/day ability by itself would cost more than the ring of Seven Lovely Colors, let alone a ring of prot with added abilities. Would a ring that just gave you the flight ability of this ring (as you say reduced versatility flight since casting and weapons are out, at least without additional things, even though you get double the duration and speed) really cost 952gp? That's functionally what the ring would cost if you remove the ring of protection from the equation and make it a once a day ability. It would the second cheapest ring in Pathfinder. The cheapest magic ring by the way doesn't even do anything with out it's other half that costs 16000, so instead let's round up to 1000gp. Now it's tied for second with 2 other rings - one becomes a signet ring when it's wearer puts it on, the other makes clubs out of a gallon of water. Hmm, I think I'll take the "more limited" version of fly, on every character, thanks.
Yes, the main build got significantly nerfed, through a completely different nerf. That not withstanding it's not the only one. Nor does it account for one that has been published that requires content that came out at pretty much the same time. Nor, does it even close to account for how incredibly underpriced the item is. As for the casting, it can actually be done in that form for a little investment/creativity (spell selection + a ring or a spell, or the addition of a metamagic feat). And sure you only have one natural attack and can't hold weapons, again super easy to overcome (1 feat or a level dip into 2 classes or at least 1 archetype).
It's always interesting to see what things are trouble to different areas. We haven't really had anybody with this ring Omaha way. We actually haven't had that much trouble with it here either. But it's hard to ignore with more and more Unchained Rogue's being made (including a number by players who really like both that deity and item), how breakable the item is (especially if they are multiclassed with Monk in any way). Not to mention entire builds that have been based off of it. (The character I mentioned in the original post, simply using the ring doubles his EDV on a full attack against CR+2 monsters)
First let me say I'm not a fan of banning items or feats in general from play, but this item has been the point of contention across a number of locales in the past and recently came up in a conversation. So it got me thinking and evaluating the ring differently. The ring fits the flavor of Golarion well and at first glance even seems fine, but on further examination is both incredibly overpowered and underpriced and is even somewhat confusing. Now, to get into some of the argument I'll show my work, but realize that the crafting rules don't really matter in PFS. It includes a Ring of Protection +1 - (1 (technically bonus squared) * 2000 gp) = 2000gp On a ring that uses Beast Shape 4 - 7 times a day to give 10 minutes of being a songbird. - (Ok, here's the first confusing part - Beast Shape 4 - min CL = 11, that duration matches CL 10, and the ring is CL 7.)
So you add the ring + 1.5 the deflection. to get somewhere between 108840 and 169320 gp Now, since you aren't really using the full abilities of Beast Shape (i.e. only one form available) there's probably some reducing factor here - though there isn't any clear indication what that might be, let's assume 1/20th of the cost of the beast shape instead and you end up with a cost (including the deflection cost) of 8292 - 11316gp or 2 to 3 times the cost of it as written. (Though I personally think this is incredibly low overall) Just to double check the math on this, let's instead compare the cost to a Ring of Protection + 1, that gives fly 1/day. (Which is probably the least powerful aspect of the ring you commonly see) Fly - (3 (spell level) * 5 (caster level) * 1800 * 1/5 (once/day)) = 5400 gp
In addition to the amount of flight you get - it's also a much faster fly speed (120) than the fly spell (60) that guarantees you to the full speed since your armor is subsumed. You also get size bonuses to AC, Dex, and Stealth, and low-light vision. Now for another point I've seen lead to confusion - the ring specifies Beast Shape 4 - which has the entry for tiny magical beasts instead of Beast Shape 2 - which has Tiny Animal. I've seen this lead people to believe you get +8 Dex, +3 NA, instead of the +4 Dex, +1 NA of the animal entry. Next point of contention, Beast Shape can be dismissed, except dismissing a spell requires a Verbal Command (since Beast shape itself requires verbal components). So, once you're a bird are you a bird for 10 minutes (I believe so, without some other mitigating factor, like a Ring of Eloquence or Beastspeak). And for a point of reference. I personally have a character who could buy this ring for +5 to his attack (1 height now that I'm flying, 2 size and 2 DEX), +5 to AC (2 DEX, 1 NA, 2 Size), and no damage change (the die decrease is balanced by the Dex increase on average). (No, I don't have the ring) I just can't see how this item should be considered balanced, especially considering it spawn an entire build that has become semi-(in)famous.
When your one trick is really versatile and covers a wide range of situations, is being a one trick pony really that bad? No, but I also worked on making that one trick versatile. Weapon Blanches for DR. Point-Blank Master for when I couldn't get away or needed to front-line (my AC has been 29 or 30 since level 7 or so). Slippers of Spider Climb to get clean sight lines. Swarmbane Clasp to fight swarms. A backup weapon just in case. Investment in saves and Ioun stones to not kill my party. Grappling arrows and silk rope to help others climb. Just because you have one trick that's effective doesn't mean you don't need to make it work more or have a backup plan.
This is undoubtedly my most one-trick pony build. That said it's a pretty versatile trick. In combat - shoot arrows, vs. flying shoot arrows, something in melee shoot arrows (point-blank master), swarms shoot arrows, etc. Out of combat - he's got a couple of skills he's really good at Perception and Survival, and a few he can help with. He's designed to be a radar unit and combatant. He's also really effective at those things. Were there struggles in his career were he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, yes. Did he have a lot of back-up plans, not really. Sometimes you count on your party. That said he fulfilled what I wanted from him. Dance, no. Sneak - actually yes, though he wouldn't think to do so. Ask nicely? Sure, but it's gonna fail Calm a kid? I could try. Keep my party safe when *&%$ hit the fan? Yes Let other people shine, and really step it up when needed - yes Spot the problems coming - yes.
Yes and no, they don't break on a hit or a miss, but they can still go missing like a normal arrow. Since there is no break up of the destroyed or lost clause in recovering arrows in to separate percentages it's definitely a YMMV situation. Personally, I leave the miss recovery chance at 50% as there is no defined way of saying it's lower (though it probably should be, I also don't think 0% is correct). Unless there's a compelling reason I only shoot the durable arrows with my High BAB attacks, the rest are CI arrows.
Oh crap, where's Bobo! gotten off to this time. I suppose I should find him before he makes too much a mess of things. A rather lanky man comes rushing up, moving faster and looser than his full-plate looks like it should allow, and doesn't bother introducing himself.
Sorry bout that, lost track of him there for a minute. If both of you brothers you want to put an apple on your heads I'd bet good money I can shoot it off with a real weapon. Looking at Bart there's a quiver and a backpack over his shoulder and a rather plain looking longsword at his hip, but no ranged weapons to be seen. One side of his lips quirk up in a small smile.
Math Stuff Actually, you added some stuff I forgot about that certainly makes it more powerful. I'm still not sure I believe this out of the range of normal/possible for buffed DPR casters (magus, alchemist, etc.) but it certainly looks pretty powerful. (Still taking 3 spells two of which you invested arcana to get, since they aren't on the magus spell list (neither named bullet or gravity bow are magus spells), two metamagic feats (I'll say feats here since rods are harder to use while using a bow, and you'll probably want room for a quicken rod if anything), 1 arcane pool point, and a minimum of 1 trait.) I honestly consider the two arcana that were legalized to be more powerful than the archetype. I probably would have looked earlier but have been running a game.
When you shoot a named bullet you are getting 3x crit damage from your weapon, 2x crit from your spell (such as snowball), and then some extra named bullet damage. It's super dead. Assuming a 10th level build (+3 Composite Longbow +2 Str, Point-Blank Shot) a named bullet shot is doing approximately (1d8+6)*3+5d6*2+10 = Avg damage = 13.5+18+35+10 = 76.5. This is less than the average hp of a CR 10 monster. That uses 2 spells (one fourth level and 1 first level) and has to overcome SR (for the named bullet), DR if it's alignment, adamantine, or - and elemental resistance. If you get another 2 attacks in the full attack sequence (and hit - not guaranteed at all) your average damage jumps to 87.5 damage. Still not getting it done. So now let's add in intensified snowball
Finally, intensified/maximized snowball - (which requires at least 1 trait, and possibly both your daily fourth level spells, maybe 3rd and a fourth.) = (1d8+6)*3+6*10*2+10 = 161.5. Kills your average CR10 monster, uses at least one if not all your top level spells for the day Not arguing for or against anything but I don't think named bullet is that bad. You can add in Deadly aim for another 12 damage on the crits, or 20 on the full attack. But it still leaves you with only the maximized/intensified able to single shot a CR 10 mook. (Intensified only, will as often as not as it's just slightly above average damage, but still not quite there)
Hmm, tracking someone down, and a gnome no less that never turns out well. Could be fun, maybe it's time I introduce myself Coming out into the yard comes a man dressed in Mithril Full Plate though he moves as if it weren't even there. A backpack, bow, and quivers strung over his shoulders. "A gnome, could be interesting. Have you a picture or footprint?" I can track her down probably but might be more helpful to have something to follow. Talking to people is not my specialty. Oh I should introduce myself I always forget, I'm Bart mostly I shoot things with arrows, but I can track too. I have a longer name and embarrassing title, but good to get away from paperwork.
Why yes it is appropriate I should get to vote on a bow and arrow simultaneously. But bow you have two problems, 1 your price puts you into a range where there is an amazing one already on the books and 2 you're situationally OP, arrow you are a trick-pony (that frankly I don't need the help with). So, bow it is at least it's a new trick.
A man sitting in the background watching gets up from the ground in the back with a wry half-smile on his face. He moves surprisingly well given the full-plate he's wearing. He goes to one end of the yard sets a few small targets out at various heights even climbing the wall with no hands to put some up high. He then crosses the yard to the opposite side and draws a bow from his quiver. He begins slowly plunking arrows into targets, eventually picking up speed to where it appears that arrows are firing almost simultaneously. Sense Motive or potentially knowledge(local) DC=15: Bart is a Venture Captain with a lodge in Galt. He's impressed to see so many recruits training hard in the yard but knows that most of the combatants would pose no real challenge, though the dragon rager probably would. He also specializes in dealing damage and while he carries a number of rememdies if he did accidentally hurt someone to bad has no ability to heal them himself. So he contentedly watches and knocks some rust off shooting arrows across the yard. He's not worried about accidentally hitting someone as his arrows almost always go exactly where he aimed them. Oh and while he's wearing mithril full-plate he has no ACP and a high max dex through Armor training, and slippers of spider climb to walk up walls when needed. |
