Cord of Stubborn Resolve = Rage Cycling?


Rules Questions


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Ultimate Equipment Guide wrote:


Cord of Stubborn Resolve

PRICE 15,000 gp
AURA moderate transmutation CL 8th WEIGHT 1 lb.

When fastened about the waist, this stout length of rope grants a +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution along with prodigious stamina. Treat the enhancement bonus to Constitution as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
Any effect which would cause the wearer to become fatigued deals an additional 1d6 points of nonlethal damage instead. Any effect that would cause exhaustion likewise causes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage, and leaves the wearer fatigued instead of exhausted.

Construction Requirements Cost 7,500 GP

Craft Wondrous Item, bear’s endurance, lesser restoration

So main thing I'm wondering about is if a barbarian purposely ending a rage counts as an effect that causes fatigue, or would only external sources such as spells or extreme heat count as effects? Barbarian in my party is leveling up soon and I'm hoping the belt works for rage-cycling to avoid having to level-dip into lame-cursed oracle.


I believe it is the belt of rage cycling, although I'd love to hear the original author's view.


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...and after hearing it, it is meant to be the belt of rage cycling.


"Like"

Wait, wrong website.

This is good stuff, in my mind. Perhaps it will generate interest in barbarian builds that don't use rage-lance-pounce?

Dark Archive

It's pretty expensive (comparable with the all-powerful gloves of dueling), so I think it's fine. Would you rather spend 15,000 gp, or would you rather take a single level of lame oracle of metal?

EDIT: Oh wait, is that the waist slot? Oh man, this item is going to get less use than an unholy bastard sword in a paladin's backpack.


Mergy wrote:

It's pretty expensive (comparable with the all-powerful gloves of dueling), so I think it's fine. Would you rather spend 15,000 gp, or would you rather take a single level of lame oracle of metal?

EDIT: Oh wait, is that the waist slot? Oh man, this item is going to get less use than an unholy bastard sword in a paladin's backpack.

Oh I'd definitely pay for rage-cycling.

Yea waist slot. Thankfully I play the item-crafting oracle, so I can reverse-math the individual component costs so as to figure out how to advance the Con bonus and add a Str bonus. Thankfully DM's pretty awesomely reasonable bout stuff like that.

Dark Archive

I would be fine with it in a home game, but this is going on the list of PFS-related Ultimate Equipment disappointments.


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I'm curious how that'd work with the Invulnerable Rager:

Quote:
Invulnerability (Ex): At 2nd level, the invulnerable rager gains DR/— equal to half her barbarian level. This damage reduction is doubled against nonlethal damage. This ability replaces uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and damage reduction.

I'm guessing fairly well.


Mergy wrote:
I would be fine with it in a home game, but this is going on the list of PFS-related Ultimate Equipment disappointments.

I'm guessing the reason it's so cheap is due entirely to its exclusivity with other belts.

This isn't a ring of evasion here; it's effectively subbing in for a 17th level barbarian class feature with a few extra perks and drawbacks.

If dipping oracle is still attractive in some (but not all cases) then this item is a win on design IMO.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

The belt is nice with the Urban Barbarian too, since you can juggle where your bonuses are assigned on the fly.


I'm really not sure what to think of this belt. It's not game-breaking, but it does give the barbarian something he's only supposed to have at 17th level.

Well, its cost is pretty high and combining it with Str/Dex/Con bonus will only make it higher, so I guess it's okay.

Silver Crusade

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It would work well with the Acadamae Graduate feat from Curse of the Crimson Throne Players' Guide. Wizards can always use more Con, and standard action summons for a possible few points of nonlethal damage seems like a decent trade.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

Cheapy wrote:

I'm curious how that'd work with the Invulnerable Rager:

Quote:
Invulnerability (Ex): At 2nd level, the invulnerable rager gains DR/— equal to half her barbarian level. This damage reduction is doubled against nonlethal damage. This ability replaces uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and damage reduction.
I'm guessing fairly well.

It wouldn't help at all, since it isn't damage resulting from an attack. DR technically doesn't even help against falling damage.


That was the argument my friend brought up as well. I guessed it would work, but he was adamant it wouldn't. Guess that's two against me!


I don't care what your barbarian is carrying in the belt slot ,this is better. The ability to rage cycle is considered the keystone ability of any barbarian build. Being able to purchase this for 15,000 gp is a steal. Find other ways to get a Str/Dex bonus. In fact...who cares about a Str bonus when you can have soooooo many 1/rage powers to use EVERY TURN.

I can think of one ridiculous combination.
Str Surge + Spell Sunder
A Barbarian can easily dispell any magical effect 1/round ALL DAY...or until they run out of HP.

Liberty's Edge

It's good, but by no means vital. Rage cycling is cool...but really only for Spell Sunder, Strength Surge, or the two in combination. And, quite frankly, while awesome, those two are nowhere near the end-all be-all of Barbarian powers or capabilities.

Hell, given the surival rate of casters in melee with a Barbarian and how few combats involve facing multiple casters in one go, it's debatable whether using Spell Sunder more than once per Rage is even that useful. It's the terror of melee Alchemists and melee-utilizing Dragons everywhere...but those are hardly the primary foes most parties are likely to fight on most occasions.

It's better than existing options for the very specific build of a rage-cycling Barbarian who isn't willing to grab a level of Oracle. That's hardly the best thing since sliced bread.


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Russ Taylor wrote:


It wouldn't help at all, since it isn't damage resulting from an attack. DR technically doesn't even help against falling damage.

It's more complicated than that. The developers have come out and stated that it's not specifically from a weapon or natural attack that cause DR to work but based on the damage type. So DR/- would work against all physical types of damage (Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing) from both weapons and spells (Stone Call, Ice Storm, Spiked Pit, etc). This means that the Universal Monster rules are not 100% correct in how they were written (Because they are written for the non /- types of DR). The rules are unclear about falling because it is a type-less damage. I would however say that the Invulnerable Rager specifically has Damage Reduction against the Non-Lethal Damage type and So I would say that yes it would work.

This is an Iffy subject and I am still hoping for an FAQ clarification on the intricacies of DR and Non-weapon / Non-spell based damage.

EDIT: Found that Explanation by SKR
Sean K Reynolds (Designer) Tue, Aug 21, 2012, 01:51 PM FLAG | LIST
| FAQ | REPLY

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"There's no point in a magical ability calling out whether it's B, P, or S damage unless the intent is that DR/B, DR/P, or DR/S resists it.

If the magical ability wasn't affected by any kind of DR, the ability would just say it deals damage, and not list a type of damage at all.

Because the magical ability lists a damage type, effects that block that damage type apply. If it doesn't list a damage type, then the "creature takes normal damage from spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities" rule applies."

Thus, I think the way to deal with DR is....If the damage type is resisted by your DR then DR applies. So
falling damage = untyped = no DR
Cord of Stubborn Resolve = non-lethal = Inv Rager DR applies.


This would also be very helpful for Stalwart Defenders and Dwarven Stonelord Paladins allowing them to Defensive Stance Cycle.


The reverse-engineered cost for a version that didn't have the Con bonus would be 9,000 gp. (Con bonus is 4,000, +50%)

So, at least theoretically:

Belt of Physical Perfection +2 and Stubborn Resolve: 27,000 gp
9,000 (stubborn resolve) + 6,000 (Con) [4,000 + 50%] + 6,000 (Dex) [4,000 + 50%] + 6,000 (Str) [4,000 + 50%].

Belt of Physical Perfection +4 and Stubborn Resolve: 77,500 gp
16,000 (Con) + 13,500 (stubborn resolve) [9,000+50%] + 24,000 (Dex) [16,000 + 50%] + 24,000 (Str) [16,000 + 50%]

Belt of Physical Perfection +6 and Stubborn Resolve: 157,500 gp
36,000 (Con) + 13,500 (stubborn resolve) [9,000+50%] + 54,000 (Dex) [36,000 + 50%] + 54,000 (Str) [36,000 + 50%]

Other options to add to any of the above:

+6,000 for the non-strength bonuses of the Belt of Thunderous Charging (+2 bull rush/overrun, weapons count as a size category larger when charging)
+4,800 for Equestrian Belt (auto-make many Ride checks, +4 to others)
+7,500 for the non-strength bonuses of the Minotaur Belt (ignore difficult terrain when charging, overrunning, bull rushing, or trampling)


Hasn't it been stated "named" magic items aren't able to be "modified" RAW?

Thus the big hoohaa about celestial armor?


Hmm that rule is more for named specific magic weapons and armor. Plus celestial armor hoohaa was also mostly about having it as mithral for bigger max dex bonus.

See's calculations are more for custom magic items for home games rather than something like PFS.

For example, start off with Belt of of Mighty Constitution +2 = 4000 gp. Later when you can afford to, add +2 Str = 4000 x 1.5 = 6000 gp. And you get Belt of Physical Might = 10000 gp.

See's just figuring out the rage cycling part so as to have a more customized belt.


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Yeah, you can't use any of that in PFS.

For pricing custom magic items, though, that's the implicit cost in the item prices as published. GMs always should use their judgment as to whether to allow a custom item at all, and then use it again on the pricing.


Russ Taylor wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

I'm curious how that'd work with the Invulnerable Rager:

Quote:
Invulnerability (Ex): At 2nd level, the invulnerable rager gains DR/— equal to half her barbarian level. This damage reduction is doubled against nonlethal damage. This ability replaces uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and damage reduction.
I'm guessing fairly well.
It wouldn't help at all, since it isn't damage resulting from an attack. DR technically doesn't even help against falling damage.

I don't think that's correct. Damage Reduction spells out what damage is not reduced. Falling damage is not classified as a touch attack, energy damage, energy drain; a contact, ingested or inhaled disease or poison; a spell or a spell-like ability. Falling deals damage that DR fully applies against.


I'd much rather dip a level than pay for this belt, and you could probably get to ECL 9 before you can find/afford this anyway.

Also, does PF let you further enhance special items like this, as the 3E Magic Item Compendium did? In other words... it has a +2 Con enhancement bonus in it. Can I then pay another 12000 gp (difference between a +4 and +2) to make it +4? And likewise, pay 20,000 gp to make it a +6 from a +4?

I'm guessing the answer is no, and that makes this REALLY bad. Even if your DM lets you get physical abilities in other slots like in 3E (side note: worst rule change in all of PF; casters only need one mental, all warriors need at least 2 of the phys stats if not all 3; way to nerf martials, paizo!). If your DM doesn't even allow you to do that, this damn thing may as well be a cursed item. It gives you the "gift" of paying +50% for str bonus for only 15000 gp.... no ****ing thank you!


Out of curiosity, how does a one-level dip into Oracle for the Lame curse grant what it takes 5 levels of Oracle to attain (immune to fatigued condition)?


Turin the Mad wrote:
Out of curiosity, how does a one-level dip into Oracle for the Lame curse grant what it takes 5 levels of Oracle to attain (immune to fatigued condition)?

From the PRD: "An oracle's curse is based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle."

1 level oracle dip means fatigue immunity at level 9.


yeah... i see conflict with other STR/CON belts as being the main down-side, certainly in PFS...
but given Paizo keeps on pumping out new ways to evade Fatigue, it's pretty clear that 'Rage Cycling' (accelerated schedule) is definitely seen as valid by them. i have yet to see them rule on how often/much you can enter/leave Rage per turn, but that's up to GM fiat anyways, and doesn't even have to be done on a 'neutral' basis re: Free Actions in general, but can just apply to certain combos of certain Free Actions.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

I'd much rather dip a level than pay for this belt, and you could probably get to ECL 9 before you can find/afford this anyway.

Also, does PF let you further enhance special items like this, as the 3E Magic Item Compendium did? In other words... it has a +2 Con enhancement bonus in it. Can I then pay another 12000 gp (difference between a +4 and +2) to make it +4? And likewise, pay 20,000 gp to make it a +6 from a +4?

I'm guessing the answer is no, and that makes this REALLY bad. Even if your DM lets you get physical abilities in other slots like in 3E (side note: worst rule change in all of PF; casters only need one mental, all warriors need at least 2 of the phys stats if not all 3; way to nerf martials, paizo!). If your DM doesn't even allow you to do that, this damn thing may as well be a cursed item. It gives you the "gift" of paying +50% for str bonus for only 15000 gp.... no ****ing thank you!

Well my DM, and everyone else in my party is agreeing that with the current custom magic item rules presented in the core rulebook, upgrading the Con bonus and/or throwing on an extra stat-boosting effect (such as Str) at an extra +50% price like the regular 2 or 3 stat-boosting items is fine.

We also view that level-dipping into oracle isn't really worth the effort when it doesn't really fit the character concept, current ability scores (low Cha) cutting into oracle utility, loss of BAB delaying extra attacks, and the delay of kickass rage powers like Greater Beast Totem and Come and Get Me which really cuts into the player's fun.

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