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Azothath wrote:

-mostly Advice -

Spellcasting Manifestations are visible even if the caster is not. Personally I interpret the effect as in the caster's square(s). Every GM has to interpret it someway or the other.

It sure sound like someone is trying to be a stealthy weenie and do some subtle to hidden casting. There are well known methods that take some research on these boards.

As a GM you are not a free font of information or vetting of silly ideas. Players have to try them out. You DO have to answer Spellcraft and Knowledge checks as the dice dictate. You should look at their skill scores and say, yeah, your character pretty much knows "that won't work" or whatever is core knowledge (DC of their skill score, take 10 means they have to stop and think about it).
If you are too free with private info you'll spend all your time telling players what will and won't work and they won't have tried anything or gotten anything done.

It's the player's burden to do due diligence.

The -magical- casting might be a hostile act (most people can't identify the spell) and having to make a save confirms that it IS hostile. It's going to end the moment someone has to make a save or take damage. Hidden Presence is even worse than Invisibility as it applies to creatures in the visual area. You can't really chop up a round too fine unless there are Readied Actions or Immediate Actions. The aggressor gets the benefit of invisibility for the attack and then it ends as that act ends his spell duration.

The target remembers Manifestations, having to make a save and then this wizardy looking guy pops in where the manifestations were.... hmmm.... yeah, it's mostly slash 'n hack first, ask questions later. Worse if he remembers seeing the guy earlier as that means assassin? rouge? thief? murderer?... none of it good.
Failing the Charm Person means he remembers the guy as friendly but now it's modified by just being attacked by said friendly buddy.
While the charm is hard for the target to notice, it's rather easy for his friends...

Thanks, I like how you think and agree with all this. For Hidden Presence, the noticeable/visible spell manifestations would allow an additional save per the last section of spell description. Basically it’s a pretty subpar way by itself to conceal their spell. If only there was a feat out there for concealing spells….. /s :)

Matthew Downie wrote:

My interpretation is that the Manifestations are visible even if the caster is not.

Beyond that, I think in general when you break invisibility by attacking, you still get the benefit of invisibility for the duration of the attack itself - for example, if you sneak attack while invisible, you get the usual bonuses for attacking from total concealment, but you reappear immediately after. I would apply a similar standard to spells - you are no longer invisible, but they didn't get to see your somatic components.

Regarding the exact time that Invisibility or Hidden Presence ends. I’m leaning that way also. And by that interpretation, the Hidden Presence spell would be in effect until just after the charm spell was cast. And thus the target would have no memory of the verbal, somatic components of the charm person spell.

But it’s kinda debatable if they would have seen the manifestations of the spell while affected by Hidden Presence and remembere those. For Invisibility, I say yes, since In Pf2e (and maybe somewhere for 1e also) the developers have said spell manifestations are visible even with invisible casters. But for Hidden Presence there are the lines:

“You make yourself completely undetectable to the subjects by erasing all awareness of your presence from their minds. The targets can’t see, hear, smell, feel, or taste you, including with extraordinary or supernatural senses such as blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense. They can’t pinpoint your location by any means, including detect spells.”

Maybe the best compromise is give the target another save to break the spell because the appearance of spell manifestations trigger this clause:

“If you take an action that creates a sustained and obvious change in the target’s environment—for example, attacking a creature other than a target or moving a sizeable or attended object the target can see—the target immediately receives a new saving throw.“

A PC wants to cast Hidden Presence spell on a target, and then Charm Person.
I use the text of the Invisibility spell to interpret Charm Person is considered an attack, which ends Hidden Presence spell.




"For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe."

My question is, does the Hidden Presence spell end while Charm Person is being cast, allowing the target to witness the spell casting (verbal, somatic and manifestations)? Or does Hidden Presence end immediately after Charm Person was cast, and thus the target has no memory of witnessing the verbal, somatic, and manifestations?

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This is a combination of confession, mini-rant, and search for empathy/validation that I'm not a complete idiot / terrible DM. :D TL/DR, why are important rules about the same thing often spread across multiple sections of the rules?!

Lately the Frightened and Panicked conditions have been kicking my players' asses, although they've persevered through the fights to win the day. Today I was doing more research on them (far from the first time I've read about them online from official rules to other GM opinions / interpretations/ homerules).

And I came across a post that directed to the Legacy PRD as hosted by Archives of Nethys. I like Archives of Nethys, but typically use d20pfsrd for quick online rule references. Anyways, it referred to Fear rules text I'd never seen before (despite looking up the Frightened/Panicked conditions dozens of times over the years) about being able to stop fleeing once out of sight and hearing from the source of fear. I went on to find these pages:

https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Fear&Category=Special%20Abilitie s


And then opened up my core rulebook PDF to discover Appendix 1: Special Abilities, which is the info from above links and which has a lot of important supplemental text that adds to what is included in Appendix 2: Conditions. All these years I'd only been seeing the information from Appendix 2 and thus applying an incomplete ruling. [face palm]

The differences as described for the Frightened and Panicked conditions between these two appendices (above links vs this and this) would've greatly impacted the sessions. It just makes me shake my head that important information like this can often be spread out in different rules sections.

Does anyone else out there often feel like this?

Ryze Kuja wrote:
I think the question has been answered. Unless anyone objects, let the hijack commence!

OP here. By all means, proceed with thine evil machinations. I'm glad to have provided the platform for such treacherous endeavors.

Also, I asked the same question on reddit in case anyone is looking for additional opinions on topic: reddit post.

Artofregicide wrote:
By RAW, probably not. I'd allow an absurdly high handle animal or ride check though.

What feels right for absurdly high DC? The Ride skill is DC 20 to control a non-combat trained mount. This is a combat trained mount that is Panicked, and basically had its training temporarily blasted away due to supernatural / spell-like extreme fear.

And to incorporate Diego's point above, "Random is random," would a 50% chance the animal still ignores the rider's command be too strict? I know we're outta RAW territory here, I'm trying to get a sense of when I become a dick GM vs. a realistic / kinda gritty GM.

Ride Rules: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/ride/

Panicked Condition: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Panicked

If a mount gains the Panicked condition from an enemy spell/ability, can the rider of the panicked mount use ride checks to have even a slight degree of control over the animal?

Specific example: The rider knows there is a trapped pressure plate on the ground ahead. The panicked animal with a 1-2 intelligence has no concept of this trap. It is moving toward the trap while fleeing from the source of its fear. Can the rider make a Ride check to have the animal Leap over the trap per the Ride skill rules? Or is the animal just fleeing out of its mind, and ignoring any commands from its rider?


Regarding the Climb skill and taking damage while climbing:

Does the section "A Climb check that fails by 4 or less means that you make no progress, and one that fails by 5 or more means that you fall from whatever height you have already attained..." not apply to "Anytime you take damage while climbing, make a Climb check against the DC of the slope or wall. Failure means you fall from your current height and sustain the appropriate falling damage." ?

By RAW, it seems if you take damage while climbing and fail the resulting check by 1 or more, you fall. Does anyone disagree?

Even if by RAW, is that too harsh?

The climb skill reads:


With a successful Climb check, you can advance up, down, or across a slope, wall, or other steep incline (or even across a ceiling, provided it has handholds) at one-quarter your normal speed. A slope is considered to be any incline at an angle measuring less than 60 degrees; a wall is any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more.A Climb check that fails by 4 or less means that you make no progress, and one that fails by 5 or more means that you fall from whatever height you have already attained. The DC of the check depends on the conditions of the climb. Compare the task with those on the following table to determine an appropriate DC.

You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand. While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). You also can’t use a shield while climbing. Anytime you take damage while climbing, make a Climb check against the DC of the slope or wall. Failure means you fall from your current height and sustain the appropriate falling damage.

That’s perfect thank you so much. And I agree, it will take longer than book 1 for Mvashti to convene the Druids. A) it makes sense and b) want to dissuade this player of habit of looking beyond the PCs for solutions.

Need neat ideas - DMing 1st book of ROTRL, 1 pc is a Druid and continues to visit madame mvashti, requesting that she convene a circle of local Druids to perform a ritual to protect Sandpoint and discover more about the nature of the goblin attacks. She agreed, but said it would take a while to convene the Druids.

Any advice on how to spruce this up and have it play out? I have GM writer’s block. I want to reward the player by making it a fun experience, but don’t want anything too powerful to come as a result.

John Ryan 783 wrote:

I Dislike:
-Alchemist has a couple of errors and is kind of poorly written, it's been dificult wrapping my head around it. Some clarifications would go a long way.

My group hasn't gotten too far into playtesting, but very much agree with this statement. One of us is playing an alchemist, and we were all scratching our head last night mid-session.

Even carefully re-reading today and I'm still having to think about it.

Meophist wrote:

The reason the second one exists is so that the damage of a Fireball hitting multiple targets and only some critically failing the saving throw can be done more or less fine.

The former helps keep variance in check, making the extreme outcomes less likely.

That reasoning seems logical - but to me it's just another thing I have to remember.

My vote would be for one or the other. Always roll double the dice or always multiply what you roll by 2.

Thanks Zhyth that's really kind of you to share!!

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Posted this in original twitter feed, ectremely excited about this AP. Playing In a Rise pbp 5 years running, GMing Shattered campaign, we're starting 3rd book. So excited Return will provide future adventures in this wonderful Varisia/Runelords arc.

I know a few Rise spoilers (karzoug etc) but have been good about not reading those books. So pleased I have been able to GM Shattered and play Rise with minimal conflict.

Will read Return when released to plant as many of those seeds into Shattered campaign as possible.

Thanks to you both. For the record, I was considering using it against my PCs in an upcoming deadly fight (kid gloves coming off). So I was considering imposing a ban on myself. :)

But with it not working against paralyzed (hold person) I'll consider other options.

Does the Throat Slicer feat work against someone who is Paralyzed?

I assume no, because the feat specifically says it only works against the following examples of helpless condition: unconscious, bound, and pinned (even though 'pinned' is not helpless).

If the answer is no, any one know why it doesn't work against paralyzed, other than the rules say so? Only thing I can think is that a bound/unconscious/pinned character's limbs can still be moved, making it easier to pull back the head and get the knife to the throat. Whereas paralyzed are frozen in place. Seems silly it works on some helpless examples but not others.

Last question, is Throat Slicer too powerful? I'm thinking about banning it outright.

-Steve Johnston- wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:
Fallyrion Dunegrién wrote:
Why not roll20?



Cool. Been playing and running Pathfinder adventure paths on Roll 20 for about three and a half years now. I will gladly pay to get maps, NPCS, etc instead of making them myself. :)

Seconded!!!! I'm DMing Shattered Star. I will pay for what sounds to be a HUUUUGE time saver. So excited.

As proposed by Ryan and Perram from the Know Direction podcast, an AP set in the afterlife, that tours the outer planes would be incredibly neat.

If you continue to put out more, I will definitely use them. My group has a slower pace perhaps than most, and we switch between two different campaigns. They've just finished off the Tower Girls in AP1, still have to explore the rest of the crow.

Really appreciate your time and effort, these look great!

Tarondor wrote:
Despite what I said above, I've gone and converted the whole thing. Here is the LINK.

I start my DMing run of RHoD today. I was wondering if anyone has the opportunity to play through these conversions, and how it went. I want things to be challenging for my players, but not a slaughter. I'm sure I'll have to do some on the fly balancing, but just looking for input.

Question for DMs and rule-lawyers: Should web work underwater? What if it is cast just above the surface of the water, say, under a bridge clearing the water at most 2 feet? Would just above the water contain webbing, or would it extend below the water as well?

Thanks for reading. I'm a DM that likes to work with my players to help them create characters they are passionate to play. I'm willing to bend the rules, but also like to keep balance. This player is creating a sorcerer, and has lots of 3.5 experience, but no Pathfinder experience.

In the 3.5 PHB II regarding sorcerers, there is an option allowing them to lose familiar and gain Rapid Casting (no extra casting time for metamagics). The closest Pathfinder equivalent I can find is the arcane bloodline, which at 1st level provides arcane bond, and at 3rd level Metamagic Adept (similar to rapid casting, but only usable a certain number of times per day).

I'm willing to compromise, and allow them to take the arcane bloodline, forego the arcane bond and instead use Metamagic Adept more times than they would otherwise be allowed. The question is:

How much more? I'm tempted to allow them to do so unlimitedly, but wonder if this might prove very unbalancing. Perhaps a better compromise would be to double or triple the allowed per-day usage.

Thoughts or comments? Thanks for your input.

Thanks for the input. To answer Montana77, no one else is playing a non-core race, but the guy that joined with him is talking about playing a half-dragon. Honestly, I'm okay with it. I just need to decide whether I should start their class levels off at 1 or 2 so they're equal to a 4th level core race/class.

Alright, so I've got a couple of new players with uber-pathfinder/gaming experience, and they're putting my newb GM status to the test by coming up with challenging character concepts.

One wants to play a Drow Noble template using the information from the bestiary. I'm letting him create a 4th level character, but I need input on what level a drow noble character should be (perhaps EL -2) to compensate for the powerful racial modifiers, spell resistance, and spell like abilities. In other words, would a 2nd level Drow Noble PC (prolly fighter) be equal to a 4th level core race PC? Keep in mind that I include wealth with PC level, and thus in this scenario would only allow him starting wealth for a 2nd level character also.

Drow Noble Characters

Drow nobles are defined by their class levels—they do not
possess racial Hit Dice. A drow noble’s challenge rating
is equal to her class level. Drow nobles possess all
of the racial traits listed above for drow characters,
plus the following.

+4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence,
+2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, –2
Constitution. Noble drow
are very agile, observant,
and regal. These ability
score modif iers replace the
standard drow ability score

Spell Resistance:
Drow nobles have spell
resistance equal to 11 +
their character level.

Spell-Like Abilities:
Drow nobles can cast
dancing lights, deeper
darkness, faerie
fire, feather fall,
and levitate
each at will,
and have detect
magic as a constant
spell-like ability. A
drow noble can also
cast divine favor, dispel
magic, and suggestion
once per day each. In
some cases, a drow noble’s
spell-like abilities might vary,
although the level of a particular spelllike
ability does not. A drow noble’s caster level for her spell-like abilities is equal to her
character level.

Medium: Drow are Medium creatures, and have no
bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Normal Speed: Drow have a base speed of 30 feet.

Darkvision: Drow can see in the dark up to 120 feet.

Drow Immunities: Drow are immune to magic
sleep effects and get a +2 racial bonus to saves against
enchantment spells.

Keen Senses: Drow receive a +2 racial bonus on
Perception checks.

Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light blinds
drow for 1 round; on subsequent rounds, they are dazzled
as long as they remain in the affected area.

Poison Use: See Special Abilities, above.

Weapon Familiarity: Drow are proficient with the hand
crossbow, rapier, and short sword.

Languages: Drow begin play speaking Elven and
Undercommon. Drow with high Intelligence can choose
bonus languages from the following: Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan,
Common, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, or Goblin.