I didn't want to detract from the OPs actual question in the current 'Crossbow Rogues' thread, so here's my question:
I've been looking at the fighter crossbowman archetype, the rogue sniper, and the ranger with crossbow combat style. I'm trying to work out who'd be the most effective sniper.
Second question: same again for normal longbow/shortbow.
I like aspects of all of them, but I'm having trouble seeing the wood for the trees. Thoughts?
This is not a question of pure damage, it is a mechanical question, but I'm not after gimped builds that wouldn't RP well. Just consider this an academic discussion based on the new rules, from a player who's always loved to snipe.
Go. ;)
Nobody? No sniper love?
Ignoring everything else (skills beyond stealth/perception, ability to contribute beyond sniping, magic, etc) I would always rule in favor of the Fighter when it comes to deciding who is best at using a weapon in any generic scenario.
Rogues have more stealth options and tricks, rangers have magic and companions, and both have context sensitive damage. If you want to expand beyond being simply a sniper, it'd be either of those two. But balls to the wall? Fighters are simply the best at fighting. They have enough feats to pimp the sh#t out of any sort of archery and still be awesome enough to take on another fighting style.
Personal opinion, though.
Well, yes a sneak attack will always be the best taking out an unaware enemy. I mean more long term in the context of a campaign, often you can't repeatedly make stealth checks, or catch them flatfooted at range. Is it just feats that will allow you to pump the best damage out of a crossbow?
Well to help offset range penalties you pretty much need full BAB. Plus crossbows don't do extra damage based on strength and Weapon Specialization is a very good way to get consistent extra damage, whereas with Favored Enemy you might not be facing one.
And since you can only Sneak Attack with a ranged weapon within 30 feet, Rogue is right out.
So to make a long-ranged crossbow sniper, grab the Weapon Focus tree, Deadly Aim, and then the Vital Strike tree. You won't be hitting very easily with iterative attacks so just make one devastating shot each round. Plus with the Crossbowman archetype for the Fighter, you're getting the weapon training, half/level bonus to Stealth when sniping and Dex to damage.
For longbow and short bow, still Fighter.
And for RP, Fighter is a blank slate. You can RP one anyway you want. A grizzled veteran who specializes in crossbows, an outlaw, a sadistic killer who enjoys the "finger of god" style of killing. And for the crossbow fighter, since you don't need Strength, you can bump Intelligence for skill points and Charisma for Bluff, Intimidate etc.
There are googles to increase sneack attack range so the rogue isn't out as a sniper.
However, with the cross bow archetype a figther can snipe you with a double crossbow for up to:
(1d8 + 3d8(Vital Strike) + 12(Deadly Aim) + 5(Enhancement) + DEX(9)(Archetype) + INT(4)(a feat in the APG) +4(Weapon Training) + 4(Specialization)) X2(Double crossbow) = 112
Humbly,
Yawar
Yeah, the more I look at this the more fighter seems to make sense. Although as far as the 'sneak attack at range' argument goes, the sniper archetype increases the range at which you can do it.
I haven't built one yet but I suspect the Skirmisher Ranger variant with the crossbow style might make for a decent sniper. Most of the hunter's tricks are geared more towards melee rangers but a few are appropriate for sniper builds.
The main advantage over the fighter isn't so much the DPR but that with Ranger skill points and skill list the Ranger is better suited to handle the stealth and scouting functions of the sniper archetype.
For one shot assasination snipng? a Rogue with a lot of sneak attack dice. However it also depends on what you're going to be doing the other 99 percent of the time.You only get precision damage at 30 feet or less.
...Unless you're a Sniper Rogue variant from the APG. IIRC (away from my books), at 3rd level and every 3 or 4 levels thereafter, the Sniper Rogue increases the range at which they can Sneak Attack by 10 ft.
Also, Vital Strike can increase the damage of a single shot; as can using a large crossbow (if you don't mind the -2 on attack rolls). Vital Strike is probably more useful for a fighter or a ranger, but can be a good option for a rogue who uses the sniping (IIRC) Stealth action (shoot and then hide again as a move action at -20 to the check).
In the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting there's a regional feat that you might like:
Sniper Shot
You are skilled at making deadly attacks from an extreme distance.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Wis 13, Far Shot, Focused Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Kyonin affinity.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you may make an attack that allows you to deal precision-based extra damage to a distance equal to your weapon’s range increment. You may only make this attack with bows and crossbows. Precision-based damage includes sneak attacks, a ranger’s favored weapon bonus, and the damage bonus from the Focused Shot feat. Creatures immune to critical hits and sneak attacks are immune to this extra damage.
And go a rogue for the sneak attack.
I will note tho, that this would probably be unplayable in a usual campaign.
I do like that feat, and used it once in a 3.5 game, but I don't think my DM is allowing feats from the campaign setting now we play Pathfinder.
The Sniper archetype looks good, but it seems to me that that distance isn't going to get practical until high levels. Even at level nine you're looking at 60ft, and it maxes at level 18 with 90ft. I am talking about distances usable in an encounter, but a ranged character never gets *too* close, making this impractical until higher levels.
In the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting there's a regional feat that you might like:
Sniper Shot
*snip*
I will note tho, that this would probably be unplayable in a usual campaign.
I will concur. My group plays without house rules, with point buys, and strictly by-the-book, and in Daigle's RotRL campaign I played a dwarven fighter 4/rogue* who was built out as a crossbow sniper.
First off, this was 3.5, and I used the great crossbow from Races of Stone. If you can get your hands on one of those, you don't need to worry about class as much anymore. 2d8 damage with a 18-20 critical hit range that many call unfair. Range is 120 ft., so with crossbow sniper, you're waaaaay deadly.
I got up to fighter 4 to specialize, took Big Game Hunter, Crossbow Mastery and Sniper Shot, and it was the deadliest character our group had ever seen. The raging barbarian had nothing on this guy.
As we aren't power gamers, I started to regret the build decision at about 8th level. I assumed the guy would start out strong due to weapon choice then balance out, but it never happened. After I leveled-up at about level 10 or so and scored Improved Critical, it got to be so overbearing damage-wise that I stopped sneak attacking just to give other folks a chance to kill something. And god forgive anything that happened while hasted or powered up with that divine wind spell or whatever it was.
Nasty, nasty character, that one!
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There are googles to increase sneack attack range so the rogue isn't out as a sniper.
However, with the cross bow archetype a figther can snipe you with a double crossbow for up to:
(1d8 + 3d8(Vital Strike) + 12(Deadly Aim) + 5(Enhancement) + DEX(9)(Archetype) + INT(4)(a feat in the APG) +4(Weapon Training) + 4(Specialization)) X2(Double crossbow) = 112
Humbly,
Yawar
what googles? =D
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I do like that feat, and used it once in a 3.5 game, but I don't think my DM is allowing feats from the campaign setting now we play Pathfinder.
You could always ask ;).
I tend to do campaign setting stuff on a case-by-case basis, some of it is still great and some of it has just been made redundant by the changes to Pathfinder.
Personally, I think the best sniper would be an Elf Fighter using the new crossbow archetype, and using focused shot- thus adding 1/2 dexterity to damage and intelligence as well on a readied/standard action. Dexterity and intelligence sky-high, with strength as a dump stat as much as possible.
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Why should a sniping fighter use Vital Strike instead of Deadly Stroke? Even in comparison with Greater Vital Strike Deadly Stroke would deal more damage with Deadly Aim, Weapon Training and Weapon Specialization.You can Vital Strike and use Deadly Aim in the same attack.
But you can't use Deadly Stroke and Vital Strike in the same attack.
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If you're not averse to 3pp stuff then this might interest you.
Especially the 'sharpsooter' archetype.
I wonder how Deadly Stroke and Double Crossbow interact..
"you deal Double the normal damage"
"If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts".
I guess it should be triple damage but..
Play 1/2 elf and pick any any combo Fighter/Rouge Fighter/Ranger or Ranger/Rouge
It would be easier to come up with a viable build for a hackey sack user than a crossbow.
A Myrmidach(magus) might be a decent choice as a sniper, an intensified+empowered shocking grasp will be potentially very nasty, though there are prolly better spells to use
Half-Orc Alchemist
Explosive Missile
Prerequisite: Alchemist 4
Benefit: As a standard action, the alchemist can infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet with the power of his bomb, load the ammunition, and shoot the ranged weapon. He must be proficient with the weapon in order to accomplish this. When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target. If the explosive missile misses, it does not detonate.
1. Can load and shot crossbow as a standard action
2. Bomb (+ Int) to Damage
3. 1/2 level to bomb damage (Half-Orc alternate race bonus)
4. Some other effect on tagets he hit (trip, staggerd, confused ..). Making it harder to close the distance to the snipper.
Later he can have confusion (8th) level or cloudkill (12th level) on his shoot. Shoot an enemy with a cloudkill sniper shot run and hide again while the enemy leaves the cloud. Shoot again.
Breiti