Aramyros |
Agreed
Ethana Minara |
Oh yeah. I'm here, but I'll be quiet for a bit. Hopefully not for too long, though.
Quercus Thousandborn |
@Kitnos: Mhhh, I think it would be helpful to provide us more examples of how those beings are and how they react, speak and influence you.
Maybe give two or three example situations and the list how each of them behaves in that situation?
For downtime, you could just roll, which of the four has the uphand for the week/month/day and play it out accordingly?
During adventures, when you feel it would be a good time for another twist, you could go ahead and list the behaviour of two of them and the GM can then steamroll the others?
Ktinos Amyntas |
Hmmm... I'll have to think on that. Also it's late and I should sleep. XD
Ktinos Amyntas |
Aaaand then I forgot to reply. XD I am planning on rolling at the beginning of every day to see which one has the most influence that day. I hadn't really thought about downtime.
I'd actually been thinking of a modification of the taboo system for Ktinos dealing with the beast spirits. Normally a Medium (or Prowler at World's End, in Ktinos's case) can accept taboos to call upon the power of his spirits without increasing their influnce: so, say, for the day you have to avoid accepting having arcane spells cast on you, or you have to avoid using metal armor, etc.
For Ktinos, I'm thinking that instead the spirits try to bargain with or bully him. Let's see, an example...
If he were struggling with some sort of skill check, the Sphinx might say something along the lines of, "Oh, I remember how to do that. I might even be willing to help you with it, but I'd need a little favor in return..." and then propose some sort of task he'd have to do in return. Taking the deal would mean he could use a spirit surge without incurring extra influence, but breaking it would have to have some sort of cost--perhaps two whole points of influence if he doesn't keep his end of the deal?
I suppose that's a tweak on the rules, not just a role-playing issue, so that would have to be agreed on.
For how the spirits would bargain:
Sphinx: Offers to help with skills, asking for bizarre, nonsensical-seeming tasks in return.
Chimera: Loves killing, but demands destroying things in return. Her 'deals' might be more like, "KILL HIM AND SMASH HIS ARMOR BREAK HIS WEAPON REND HIS FLESH"--so a spirit surge on an attack, with the cost being destroying at least some of the foe's equipment.
Lion: This one's harder, since he's the Guardian, and spirit surge can't be applied to defense. I suppose it could be used for Fortitude saves... so his bargains might be along the lines of "Bah. I could survive that spell without even noticing it. Kill the fool who dared us it on us slowly, and I suppose I'll help you deal with it." So Ktinos would have to try to draw out the death of the enemy painfully in return for a spirit surge on a save.
Griffon: Gives a bonus on charisma checks, so his deals might be along the lines of humiliating or otherwise claiming superiority over others in return for bonuses on charisma checks.
Quercus Thousandborn |
So using the influence system, you would have to come up with special penalties per spirit if you reach the 3+ influence threshold.
They are usually given with the spirits, but I think you created your own?
Balancing out the bargains can be challenging ... but also rewarding I guess.
A generic bargain-break penalty would be to add a penalty on exactly that which the spirit helped you with in the first place, depicting the spirit being mad at you which leads to the fact that you now suck at the spirits-sphere of influence.
So if you break a bargain with the Sphinx, you would incur a hefty penalty on skill checks, or breaking with the Chimera will reduce damage/attack.
Something like that? (in addition to the usual influence increase)
Ktinos Amyntas |
Yeah, I am a bit worried it's too much to ask from a rotating-GM situation like this. That's why I'm trying to not vary too much from the baseline where I can help it.
The four spirits are actually re-flavored versions of the four spirits the Prowler at World's End archetype can access. Specifically, the Chimera is the Champion, the Sphinx is the Trickster, the Lion is the Guardian, and the Griffon is the Marshal. I just discovered that there's such a thing as Legendary Spirits, so I may have a look at them and see if I want to steal something from them to fit the Beast Spirits better, but for now I'm leaving them as-is for everything but the taboos just to keep it simpler for the rotating GM pool.
Aramyros |
just to keep it simpler for the rotating GM pool.
that would be much appreciated :)
on another note: I should probably make a second alias for my vigilante identity.
@Quercus, can you link the shared one-note in the description so that it is available form everywhere
Quercus Thousandborn |
uhhh, I cannot edit my campaign at the moment *another-site-bug*.
I had it added to the campaign info tab .... and copy it here as well.
here you go
Aramyros |
yep
Is this the char you want to play? Because we're not doing automatic bonus progression. Also your backstory doesn't tie you to the setting at all.
Ktinos Amyntas |
I was thinking of a couple of alternatives to having whoever the GM is at the time role-play Ktinos's spirits.
1) If someone likes the idea of playing a quartet of monster spirits tempting, raging at, and whispering to Ktinos, perhaps they could take the job? Given the only interaction they'd have that would have to be adjudicated by a GM is when they offer one of their deals to Ktinos, I think it wouldn't be too hard for someone who's not always the GM to play them.
2) I could play them. I don't like this because then I'm having to work against myself to some degree and I struggle with this, but it would be doable.
Ktinos Amyntas |
So I tried to expand on my thoughts on Ktinos, and it's ended up a bit long. So here's info in the spoiler:
Ktinos is afflicted by four spirits, each with their own motives and desires. They are the spirits of four great monsters slain in the distant past of Iblydos who have somehow taken up residence in his body.
(In Greek mythology, monsters were generally not species but unique, dangerous individuals. The spirits afflicting/empowering Ktinos are meant to reference this--in life each would have been much more dangerous and powerful than an ordinary member of their species, perhaps a Mythic version of their kind with extra hit dice and abilities)
Sphinx
Alignment: ????
Spirit Type: Trickster
Goals: Enigmatic
Personality: The Sphinx spirit delights in riddles and outright lies, seeming to take special delight in keeping Ktinos guessing as to her true identity and motivations. She’s hinted at being killed by no less than five different hero-gods at different times, and alternately proclaimed a desire for vengeance on and protection for various cities of Iblydos. She mostly holds herself aloof from the squabbling of the other spirits, waiting for opportunities when they are distracted by their infighting to make her own attempts to influence or control Ktinos. Her actions while influencing Ktinos are likewise enigmatic, having no clear end goal.
Possible secrets:
Perhaps she, unlike the others, plans on breaking free and regaining her power and form. Perhaps her enigmatic actions are building up to somehow doing this. Or perhaps she simply wishes to completely possess Ktinos and is being misleading to obfuscate this.
Thoughts:
The Grecian sphinx is famous from the story of Oedipus for her riddle and for devouring any who could not answer it. In the world of Pathfinder, an unusually powerful (and evil) Gynosphinx may well have been a skilled spellcaster in addition to being a dangerously strong leonine monster. Instead of a formal riddle, the question she torments Ktinos with is her true identity and purpose--and like the Grecian sphinx, it may well be that failing to discover the truth of this matter will lead to Ktinos’s destruction.
Chimera
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Spirit Type: Champion
Goals: Destruction of humanoid cities, gluttony
Personality: The Chimera is a creature of wrath, swearing her vengeance on all civilization for her death. She rages constantly against Ktinos and humanoids in general, urging him to random acts of destruction and violence. The only thing that calms her rage for a moment is gorging herself on fresh meat, and impulse she tries to impart on her unwilling host whenever he makes a kill of something that looks at least vaguely edible. She seems to have a particular target to her rage, but who it is she will not reveal.
Thoughts:
The Chimera is very straightforward. She wishes to devour the hero-god who slew her, gorge herself on anything and everything, and destroy Iblydian civilization. She’s the most classically ‘monstrous’ of the four spirits, being basically rage and hunger incarnate.
The Chimera of Greek mythology was rather different in form from the Pathfinder kind--rather than having all three heads in front, she had a lion head in front, a goat head in the middle, and a snake or dragon head for a tail. Also, she lacked wings (significant because it meant Bellerophon riding Pegasus had an advantage over the Chimera). My idea of the Chimera is that she’s very, very angry about how she was killed--perhaps the Hero-God who slew her stayed out of her reach and thus, in her view, cheated? Her top desire is revenge, but given how unlikely it is she’ll get to attack the Hero-God who killed her, she’s willing to settle for just killing and burning whoever and whatever she can.
Lion (Nemean Lion)
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Spirit Type: Guardian
Goals: Torment humanoid civilization
Personality: The Lion seems far older than the other spirits. He also hungers for revenge, but his is a more gradual, more sadistic anger. All of the direct targets of his vengeance are long-dead, and so he instead wishes to torment humanoid civilization in general, sowing misery and poverty instead of death. While he calls himself a Lion, it is clear from his speech that he was far more than an ordinary animal in life, for he boasts of his impenetrable hide and razor-sharp claws and fangs. He refuses to speak of how he was slain if his hide could not be pierced.
Thoughts:
The Lion is a reference to the Nemean Lion, a lion with an impenetrable hide and razor-sharp claws, slain by Heracles because he was strong enough to strangle it. In my version, he was an incredibly huge dire lion with special abilities giving him high DR and very deadly claws and teeth (not to mention human-level intelligence), to use game terms. He’s angry about being killed and skinned, but it’s been so long his killer is long since dead. So for his ‘revenge’ he mostly just wants to make everybody miserable--his anger is the sullen instead of wrathful type.
One thing that *would* rouse him to much more vigorous rage would be seeing his pelt, which he would want Ktinos to claim.
Griffon
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Spirit Type: Marshal
Goals: Subjugate others, amass wealth
Personality: All of the spirits are proud, but the Griffon exceeds them all in arrogance. He desires revenge on the world by subjugating them to his will and hoarding their wealth, especially gold. Certain treasures seem to particularly attract his attention, though he will not explain why.
Thoughts:
The griffon is odd in that, in spite of being present in sculpture and art for millenia, including in Greece, they never (to my knowledge) featured prominently in any myths. Greek and Roman bestiaries mention it being a guardian of gold, and it was often used as a symbol of military leadership and prowess, so my version combines these ideas. The Griffon was almost draconic in aspect, hoarding gold and subjecting the people in his territory. Now he wants to recover the treasures he’d hoarded and reclaim his ‘right’ to rule.
Other thoughts:
Ktinos might not always have been a catfolk. The spirits may have warped him that much. Perhaps he was once human, or a lion. Or perhaps he wasn’t even a living creature before getting possessed.
Exorcising the spirits is Ktinos’s “abandon your quest test”. Sure, they’re evil spirits… but without them, Ktinos isn’t exactly able to take on high-level challenges. So getting them exorcised would likely remove him from the game. Instead, perhaps he could eventually come to an understanding with them, where they quit trying to take over in return for some concessions for their needs.
Ktinos’s club is a Heracles reference--Heracles often used a club as a weapon for killing monsters, and Ktinos’s club is particularly good for killing magical beasts. I considered giving him an Invulnerable Hide Shirt as a reference to the Nemean Lion’s hide, but I like the idea of the Lion spirit hunting for his hide more (also Invulnerable is *expensive* to put on armor).
One other thing I was realizing I hadn't mentioned--the Shifter half of his build is mostly for him to partially or fully assume the form the one of the Beast Spirits. That and to let me make him more monstrous in general--he has natural armor and a bite attack thanks to his Shifter levels.
Quercus Thousandborn |
That certainly helps.
I can see them as personal quest providers, which may very well interfere with the current party goal - which is always an interesting option.
But how do you imagine them influencing your basic behaviour? So like talking, accepting other quests, etc?
I would handle it as follows:
- If I think one (or more) of the spirits have spotted or want something important, they will rise up (GM-initiative)
--> expect some mini-quest (did you play the newer versions of sims? sometimes they have ... whatisitcalled? ... impulses that are like mini-quests that you can let them fulfill - or not, sometimes with consequences)
- Everything else I would leave in your hands, as I feel that it will be a major part of your roleplay
--> maybe I would throw in some rp-hooks if I feel like one of them isn't satisfied (or VERY satisfied) with one of your actions
Ktinos Amyntas |
To a certain degree, I was planning on that mostly being a matter of my role-playing--I'd try to play Ktinos as being more aggressive and easier to anger when the Chimera is dominant, more sullen and wary when the Lion is dominant, and so forth. I do like the idea of the Spirits speaking up suddenly from time to time--I did try to give an example of how they might 'comment' on situations in his first gameplay post, with Chimera being happy that something's wrong in the city.
Are you saying you'd be interested in playing the Beast Spirits?
Oh, yes, and which Spirit today?: 1d4 ⇒ 3
Aramyros |
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situation:
5 players dotted (including GM)
7 people are interested according to the discussion thread
3 players are active in gameplay (4 with GM included)
if we find one more, we'd be a perfect party of four.
My CR estimation is as follows:
4 people = APL 8
high point buy and extra feats = +1
Gestalt = +2
=> APL = 11
Hard encounter = CR 13
Epic Encounter = CR 14
The Ghost of War |
I will focus my GM-time for NPCs, the environment and encounters and not on trying to figure out how you do stuff - unless something seems fishy and/or I am particular curious.
So please make sure that you know how your stuff works and check your crunch yourself, because I do not know every 3PP/Paizo stuff we have in the group.
I am just going to trust everyone that what you say you can do, you can actually do.
@Aramyros: Good list. I ended with that number myself, although I added 3 for gestalt but discarded feats/high-stats. Thanks for the summary!
Aramyros |
I don't know all the stuff, too. But I'll try to skim through all chars at one point, due to interest and finding obvious mistakes. I encourage everyone to do that. All builds are complicated and making mistakes is human.
Ktinos Amyntas |
I'd appreciate that--I used Hero Lab to help me do the build, but couldn't quite get it to accept *all* of the craziness we have going on, so there could well be errors. The hardest part of Ktinos is going to be making sure I keep up with which spirit he has active at the time--switching spirits is almost like changing classes (though not as much so as for an actual Medium), so it has a lot of ripple effects.
Ethana Minara |
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Oh hey, there are posts in gameplay. They weren’t showing as new for me. I’ll start posting there later.
Gosor Proudhoof |
Yeah, this thread is hard to find unless I look for it. Hopefully when I post in gameplay I'll have an easier time spotting it on my list of things I'm tracking!
Aramyros |
@Lady Zal we're not doing automatic bonus progression afaik
Aramyros |
I think we agreed on these rules. And since nobody else has ABP, it's a fair bet it was not accepted.
Ktinos Amyntas |
Yeah, I certainly didn't build Ktinos with ABP.
Ktinos Amyntas |
You know, I rolled Lion for the day for Ktinos, but Chimera has been more talkative thus far. :D
The Ghost of War |
Haha, I don't know how you do half of that Ethana ^^
...
What's with all those AoOs?
Are they just there as a matter of principle should they come up?
@All: Could you please add the important numbers (HP, AC, CMB/CMD, saves, Perception, Sense Motive) in either
- your alias header (similar to Ktinos) or
- make a habbit of adding a footer to every combat post which includes those numbers?
That will make it much easier for me to handle rounds. Thanks.
Ethana Minara |
The quick answer is that Fighters are actually good these days. There have been so many fixes over the years by various methods (archetypes, bonus feats, advanced weapon training), that, when all combined, are really impressive. Plus, Spheres of Might is generally awesome as well. But yeah, the AoOs are there just generally, and given how AoO-centric my build is, I’ll try to remember to do it, along with various alternative things I might do instead of a basic attack. Of course, once Mythic kicks in, I won’t be able to roll all my AoOs, but we’ll deal with that once we get there.
A slightly more complicated answer is that I built Ethana to be a master of the action economy- just wait until I have more than a swift action to play with!
Ethana Minara |
I don't think so? It would be a fairly major nerf to its utility, but also kind of understandable. Most AWT options are constant, though, so there's that, and those that aren't have their action called out. I guess it's a GM call, though. It would make it so that I almost would never be able to use it, though, and it was a fairly central mechanic for my character.
Aramyros |
Meno is right in that the default is always a standard. Paladin's divine bond which does almost the same, is a standard action, too. On the other hand, a Magus can enhance his weapon as a swift. But at least it's explicitly called out.
Ethana Minara |
Hmmm, fair point.
I may need to rethink a good amount of my build/imagined playstyle now. Free action or long-term enhancement was a fairly central part.
Ethana Minara |
That would be appreciated. On further reflection, it's not so much of an issue if I just spend a round or two getting ready before jumping into battle. I guess I could do any of the following, really, and it would make sense:
Spend 6 or 7 Combat Stamina points (giving it my all) to use it as a Swift action (similar to Barroom Brawler) instead of a Standard
Spend 3 Tension to use as a Swift action (similar to making an attack or moving). That might be counterproductive, though, considering Tension starts most combats at 0.
Expend Martial Focus (which I keep forgetting about) to use it as a Swift. This would be the most preferable, as it would be active at the start and can be regained during combat. However, it has the least comparable abilities to base it off of.
In any case, so much for my poor Swift action ;P.
I think regardless, though, this round would have played out differently. I would have probably have moved something like 55 feet, activated Warrior Spirit, and probably used Enhance Weapon with my Arcane Pool as well. So probably no attack, but I might have been in range of Haste.
Ktinos Amyntas |
Sense motive can be used to get a hunch someone is under the effect of mind-affecting magic, right? Or maybe we should look for magical effects?
Menophotine |
It might take me another couple rounds to get there if I do this, but I can barroom brawler to get Shapeshifter Foil with a 15-20 crit range to deny it a save, if that frees you up to do other stuff that would be just as productive.
Sense motive can be used to get a hunch someone is under the effect of mind-affecting magic, right? Or maybe we should look for magical effects?
Yep! Good call.
The Ghost of War |
Spending the equivalent of a standard action (attack or similar) would be okay in my book.
@Retcon: your call but I'd be okay if we just let it stand as-is and just go on. Retcon in pbp (unless in massive favour of pcs) are usually counterproductive as they confuse matters even more than pbp combat is already...
Ethana Minara |
I mean, I'm fine with leaving it as it stands (go figure)- I expect there'll be a few of these kinds of incidents while we're figuring everything out (Ethana is easily one of my most complicated characters ever).
Menophotine- it's fine, there's some stuff that I could grab, but I imagine it'll go decently quick as it is- no real need for overkill. Besides, we can both try to force him back to his natural form in any case.
Ktinos Amyntas |
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Don't ask me how you deal non-lethal damage with a club the size of a tree.