Advice on a Monk's feat (Tomb of Battle)

Hello gang,

In my Gestalted SCAP, I have a Monk / Fighter.

He wants to know if he can take a feat from the tomb of battle and how it will interact with his characters long term layout.

I don't have ToB and would like some insight.

The feat is:

Tome of Battle p 33
Superior Unarmed Strike
Gist of the Effect: +4 to monk levels for unarmed strike.

Now, that doesn't sound overpowering.
He asked two follow up questions:
1) Will it stack with Improved Natural Attack (from the Monster Manual)
2) Will it stack with a Monk's Belt

Belt, Monk’s
This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.
Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, righteous might or transformation; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Now my first thought is to allow the feat, as it seems reasonably fine.
There is no mechanical reason for it to not work with Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) either.

The big question, is would it stack with a Monk's Belt. That would make him have unarmed strike 9 levels higher than his level. That seems overpowering to me, and I first want to dissallow it, but then, I hate telling player's 'NO' to something (and hate hearing it when I get to be player and find a kickass combo).

Thoughts, Comments, Questions?

Thanks all,
-c

Personally I wouldn't let it stack. The Improved Natural Attack moves it up to the next damage die (which is the equivalent of like 3 monks levels I think). Then if the feat and magic item stacked the character would be doing damage of a monk like 12 levels higher than itself.

Really I wouldn't even let Improved Natural Attack work for a monk but I'm probably being conservative. For me Improved Natural Attack is to help monsters increase damage output without buffing there strength, especially since monsters don't get extra attack with an increase of base attack (if I'm remembering correctly). Plus a monk unarmed strike it a trained attack where as Improved Natural Attack improves instinctive attacks.

In the end it's your game and you can do as you plus. Strictly speaking I can't think of a rule offf the top of my head that wouldn't allow them to stack since each bonus is un-typed.

The improvements are untyped, so should theoretically stack. I'm guessing that the character is around 9th-level (base unarmed damage 1d10, 5.5 average damage). If they both stack, he's the equivalent of an 18th-level monk, so base damage rises to 2d8, or 9 average damage. That's +3.5 hp damage. Again, if he stops taking monk levels at 11th-level, then average base damage rises to 11 (from 2d10 damage), and he gets greater flurry of blows. Is that a lot? It's up to you.
If it is too much for you, consider the following:
You could have the feat work like Practised Spellcaster (Complete Arcane or Complete Divine), in that it provides a bonus to effective monk level, if the character multiclasses. See how Practiced Spellcaster works to see what I mean.
Superior Unarmed Strike is permanent knowledge, so should apply before the Belt's effect. I'd allow the Belt to stack on that basis, so if he doesn't multiclass, he gets no benefit from the feat, but does from the belt. If he does multiclass, he benefits from both.
And if he get's improved critical, critical range is still only 19-20.
Hope this helps.

Hello gang,

In my Gestalted SCAP, I have a Monk / Fighter.

He wants to know if he can take a feat from the tomb of battle and how it will interact with his characters long term layout.

I don't have ToB and would like some insight.

The feat is:

Tome of Battle p 33
Superior Unarmed Strike
Gist of the Effect: +4 to monk levels for unarmed strike.

Now, that doesn't sound overpowering.
He asked two follow up questions:
1) Will it stack with Improved Natural Attack (from the Monster Manual)
2) Will it stack with a Monk's Belt

Belt, Monk’s
This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.
Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, righteous might or transformation; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Now my first thought is to allow the feat, as it seems reasonably fine.
There is no mechanical reason for it to not work with Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) either.

The big question, is would it stack with a Monk's Belt. That would make him have unarmed strike 9 levels higher than his level. That seems overpowering to me, and I first want to dissallow it, but then, I hate telling player's 'NO' to something (and hate hearing it when I get to be player and find a kickass combo).

Thoughts, Comments, Questions?

Thanks all,
-c

Yeah, for the monk's belt, I presume that the AC for a non-monk would still be dependent on them wearing no armor, naturally. But I presume the +1 bonus from being the equivalent of a 5th level monk would assume the Wisdom bonus that would normally apply to a monk applies to the wearer- so a wisdom of 17 would put the AC bonus at +4 (for a total of say 15 for a not so dextrous character, but add a Ring of Mage Armor, and that's an AC of 19, damn, the cleric would be better unarmored...) I'm considering giving it to an npc cleric who fancies himself powerful with his unarmed attacks. he actually wears quick release armor, so that this wouldn't be a bad option. I am also considering giving it to the monk in my party, cuz duh, but he suffers under the delusion that he NEEDS special items to make his monk character formidable at higher levels...as if I wouldn't provide for such challenges, one must have faith in their DM...

Now, onto your question.
Should the feats stack, probably not, I don't think the improved natural attack should even be applied to the monk, at least not in congruence with Superior Unarmed.

I don't feel that the monk's belt and superior unarmed strike should stack, and it isn't because of any unnamed bonuses or conflicts in rules...it's a gut feeling of sorts.
Basically, Superior Unarmed Strike is a feat that represents power, skill and training, wheras the Monk's Belt is a magical item that improves your monk abilities, so perhaps you could have Superior Unarmed Strike and then get the belt and thus improve your unarmed strike greatly, but I feel as though you should just take the higher of the two bonuses. The reason being that the Superior Unarmed Strike is a character's natural ability and the Monk's Belt is a supernatural ability, it shouldn't increase his natural ability other than adding a stunning fist or perhaps increasing his flurry of blows- supernatural kinda stuff, unarmed strike damage is something that should come with training, not just a belt. But, since you do ask, there is nothing in any rule book I've read so far that would keep them from stacking. They are, in fact, Unnamed bonuses. so do as you please with them. But ithe Superior Unarmed Strike would stack ONLY as a monk, so my NPC cleric wouldn't benefit from taking both Superior Unarmed Strike (until 12th level) and the Monk's Belt.

I'd be willing, as a DM, to allow the Belt and the Feat- Superior Unarmed Strike- to stack or perhaps allow the difference (Mean it, (4+5)/2 is still 4.5 so take 5 levels of extra monk potential!, but wait that doesn't work out in higher levels and wastes a feat...), but Improved Natural Attack- no way- that's a typically taken by monsters feat, it is general, but I think the Manual just precludes Monstrous feats...I still think it should only apply to monsters and maybe npcs, it is just too likely to be abused by a PC. And besides, does a monk's unarmed strike REALLY count as a NATURAL attack? as far as this purpose is concerned? It'd be like him taking Multiattack. (which has been debated before and is in my opinion a ridiculous idea though mechanically possbile, but only as 3 attacks I would think)

Another question is, does he already HAVE the Monk's Belt? Maybe the conflict in question doesn't need to arise, just omit that option unless he gets to need it, it is 13,000 gp, which should be hard even for a gestalt monk/fighter to earn unless he saves his pennies and gets free room and board...of course that depends on what kind of treasure your party gets.

In the least, I don't think Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack should stack, suffice to say if a Monstrous monk had improved natural attack & donned the monks belt, then perhaps he could still take Superior Unarmed Strike, but I'm going with the conservative and disallow Improved Natural Attack for the Monk class as far as most humanoids are concerned.

alright, i did alot of looking around this morning on these subjects. granted, i dont have access to the superior unarmed strike feat description, but everything else i do have access to.

what i saw is this: monk unarmed strikes are not natural attacks. in fact, in the errata at wizards's website, they distinctly delineate between a monks unarmed attack and a natural weapon attack for creatures that have both. in other words, no improved natural attack for the monk, unless of course this monk has a natural attack, but the unarmed strike ability of the monk should never be affected by said feat.

as far as the monks belt and superior unarmed strike... well, the belt is effectively +5 levels of monk for unarmed damage and ac, along with +1 use of stunning fist, if it is a feat the character has. superior unarmed strike is apparently +4 levels of monk for unarmed damage. everything suggests they should stack. however, i cant imagine them not making it like practiced spellcaster (see earlier post). of course, i dont know the prerequisites for this feat, either...

to conclude, RAW suggests these things:
1) no improved natural attack for monk unarmed strike.
2) the monks belt and superior unarmed strike stack.

tog

ps - dont let me ruin your fun if RAW suggestions get in the way of that. tog

Another thing to bear in mind. If you're running a gestalt campaign because it's a small group of PCs, and the monk is the main warrior-type, it's probably best to let them stack, without the modifications I suggested above.
As a further suggestion if the PC is the main warrior in a small group. If you have Complete Warrior and Magic of Incarnum, after 11th-level, gestalting as a kensai/soulborn would probably be a good idea: kensai for the Strength boost ability, and +4 axiomatic holy evil outsider-bane unarmed strike, and soulborn (which has good BAB) for the Mauling Gauntlets soulmeld. He'll need it!

what i saw is this: monk unarmed strikes are not natural attacks. in fact, in the errata at wizards's website, they distinctly delineate between a monks unarmed attack and a natural weapon attack for creatures that have both. in other words, no improved natural attack for the monk, unless of course this monk has a natural attack, but the unarmed strike ability of the monk should never be affected by said feat.

...

to conclude, RAW suggests these things:
1) no improved natural attack for monk unarmed strike.

The RAW are actually ambiguous on this point. The controversy rests on the definitions of words that are undefined anywhere in the RAW, particularly the definition of "effect" in:

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Does a feat, like Improved Natural Attack, create an "effect" that "enhances" or "improves" natural weapons? The rules are silent on this point, and detail freaks have gone round and round (and round and round and round....!) on this for years in numerous places. There is never a consensus, and there is no firm solution in the RAW, so it's basically up to the DM.

That said, WotC's D&D FAQ recently weighed in by saying that monks can use INA to increase the damage of their unarmed strikes.

Wow!
Thanks for all the replies everyone!

From what I can dig up, the Superior Unarmed Strike looks like this:

Name: Superior Unarmed Strike
Description: Your unarmed strikes have become increasingly deadly, enabling you to strike your foes in their most vulnerable areas.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +3
Benefit: You deal more damage with your unarmed strikes, as shown on the table below:

Character Level Unarmed Damage
3rd 1d4
4th-7th 1d6
8th-11th 1d8
12th-15th 1d10
16th-20th 2d6

Special: If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher.

Occam: Yeah, the FAQ is where I got the idea in my head to let Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) work for a monk. All the DM's in my group agree and we all see it in use often. It is not to overpowering. That is why I'm ok with allowing it.

ChrisP: Yeah, I can see your point. It is the unnamed bonus on the feat and monk's belt that bothers me as well.

ErictheCleric: Yeah, capping the bonus to not exceed Character Level (like Practised Spellcaster) would normally be my answer, but as the character is Gestalt, he won't have any non-monk levels. Thanks for the damage output numbers, I hadn't thought about crunching those yet, was still overwhelmed by the +5 and +4 bonuses for unarmed damage, +9 is a LOT before INA.

punkassjoe: Yeah, taking Multiattack (and its subsequent tree) is ridiculous. However, the Monk only has one "natural attack." So he wouldn't be eligible. Good point on the bonus to his unarmed attack being both innate (feat) and supernatural (magic belt).

the other guy: As noted above, the FAQ allows for INA on a monks strike. Thanks for the straightforward reading on the belt and Superior Unarmed, the real ones I'm worried about. And no, I never let anything get in the way of fun, we just like to play by the rules, and I had no real rules heavy precedent to allow or dissallow that. I have previously told this character that Improved Natural Attack and a Fanged Ring from Dragon Magazine that improves the natural attack by one size category in damage dice does not stack. The basis was that the feat and item do the same thing, and do not stack like Improved Critical vs. Keen on a weapon.

So far, I've decided:

Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed) would stack with either effect Monk's Belt or Improved Unarmed Strike.

What I still need to decide:

1) To allow Monk's Belt and Improved Unarmed Strike to stack because they are unnamed bonuses.

or

2) To disallow Monk's Belt and Improved Unarmed Strike to stack because they are inherently the same bonus much like Improved Critical, the spell Keen Edge, and the weapon ability Keen do not stack.

After typing all of this up, I'm leaning towards option the latter choice.

Thanks to everyone for their comments and help, and please feel free to chime in further if you have more points or different points to bring to the table!

I love these message boards.

-c

Clint, I just checked page 208 of the DMG (3.5). It says that unarmed damage doesn't increase past 16th-level, which is clearly an error held over from 3.0. I think it should be 20th-level (in 3.5, damage increases to 20th-level).
As your player wants the monk to proceed to 20th-level, both the belt and Superior Unarmed Strike become irrelevant the closer he reaches that level (for purposes of unarmed damage).
Improved Natural Attack for a 20th-level monk, improves base damage (for Medium size) from 2d10 (11 hp average damage) to 4d8 (18 average damage), so it remains worth his while to gain that feat, but not to gain the other stuff.

Clint, I just checked page 208 of the DMG (3.5). It says that unarmed damage doesn't increase past 16th-level, which is clearly an error held over from 3.0. I think it should be 20th-level (in 3.5, damage increases to 20th-level).

As your player wants the monk to proceed to 20th-level, both the belt and Superior Unarmed Strike become irrelevant the closer he reaches that level (for purposes of unarmed damage).
Improved Natural Attack for a 20th-level monk, improves base damage (for Medium size) from 2d10 (11 hp average damage) to 4d8 (18 average damage), so it remains worth his while to gain that feat, but not to gain the other stuff.

Man, good good stuff!

-c

out of curiosity, where in the faq does it state that a monks unarmed strike works for the improved natural attack feat? i THOUGHT i read the faq thoroughly before answering... maybe i missed a section. however, i will defend with this: it was a part of the faq that caused me to write that the feat is not applicable to monks without natural attacks.

im not saying youre wrong, nor that im right, just trying to clarify.

tog

TOG, I checked the large FAQ for you. Page 20, right hand column.

So you can have an 11th-level monk with INA, Superior Unarmed Strike, and a Monk's Belt, dealing base 4d8 damage, using a greater flurry of blows. I doubt most DMs would allow it. But as I said above, SUS and MB become useless at 20th-level.
Of course, an NPC ogre 11th-level monk would deal base 6d8 damage using those options. :-)

TOG, I checked the large FAQ for you. Page 20, right hand column.

so it is. thanks eric. i was reading out of the monk section, which has a question about flurry of blows combined with natural attacks (as opposed to using natural attacks in a flurry of blows). it didnt dawn on me to check the feats section (im dumb sometimes) for a question about a feat...

tog

ericthecleric wrote:

TOG, I checked the large FAQ for you. Page 20, right hand column.

so it is. thanks eric. i was reading out of the monk section, which has a question about flurry of blows combined with natural attacks (as opposed to using natural attacks in a flurry of blows). it didnt dawn on me to check the feats section (im dumb sometimes) for a question about a feat...

tog

So, not having read the monstrous FAQ yet, the Feat Improved Natural Attack IS applicable to monks of non-monstrous origin?

Punkassjoe, the answer to your question is yes. Any monk with a BAB of 4+ can gain INA.

Punkassjoe, the answer to your question is yes. Any monk with a BAB of 4+ can gain INA.

well, thanks. That's what the talk implied. I'll keep in mind not to actually allow it in the case of my player's ghostly monk, but okay, he could legally take it, I'd just rather relegate that feat to the monsters and npcs...besides I doubt he'll try. But if he does, I guess we could talk about it.

ericthecleric wrote:

Clint, I just checked page 208 of the DMG (3.5). It says that unarmed damage doesn't increase past 16th-level, which is clearly an error held over from 3.0. I think it should be 20th-level (in 3.5, damage increases to 20th-level).

As your player wants the monk to proceed to 20th-level, both the belt and Superior Unarmed Strike become irrelevant the closer he reaches that level (for purposes of unarmed damage).

Man, good good stuff!

I didn't realize that the unarmed strike damage didn't go epic.

Yup, I'm playing a 14th-level monk with INA and a monk's belt, and after getting Tome of Battle I was considering taking SUS at 15th level. But then I found that same (mistaken) reference in the DMG and decided against it.