Navior's Savage Tide

Game Master Navior

Hey, it's your archetype. ;)

Yep :) - and that is what playtesting is all about.

Though the archetype is slightly crippled by the word-count limit imposed for round 2. If left unrestricted there would be a number of things I'd add (Disable Device skill and some replacement for Wholeness of Body at the very least).

Neither build has any equipment upgrades, save I upgraded both to a nonmasterwork, no strength rating composite longbow.

Felos does some serious damage when he gets to smite evil (twice per day), but Yvgeni does more reliable damage without needing to smite. Yvgeni also had room in his feats for Big Game Hunter, which gives +1 to attack and +2 to damage against large or larger opponents, which by 7th level is quite common to find. Felos gets to make attacks of opportunity with his bow; Yvgeni will be able to do that in two levels' time.
Felos has way better self-healing (3d6 8 times per day, instead of 7 point 5 times per day), and crazy better saves. His AC is more dependent on equipment than Yvgeni's, meaning Yvgeni will be able to spend his money on cooler things than plain old armour, and the typical required money drain monk items like amulets of mighty fists aren't as useful to zen archers.

Some of the comparison is lost because one is a catfolk and one is a human. Basically, Felos is tougher, harder to take out of the fight, and can hold his own damage wise if he's smart with his limited resources like divine bond and smite evil. He's also a better melee fighter, though with Snap Shot, he shouldn't even need to use his flail unless he's fighting something that needs bludgeoning damage. Yvgeni can dish out the hurt all day long, but is much squishier.

In terms of AC, the Zen Archer is well ahead, even while smiting, the paladin doesn't get to the monk's AC. Not to mention the money you save not having to invest in amulet of natural armor.

+1 monk AC (level 4 monk, going to +2 at level 8)
+4 mage armor
+3 barkskin

AC 25 touch 18 flat 23 (2 dex + 5 wis + 3 natural + 4 armor + 1 monk)

And another +4 dodge AC via ki if it is really necessary.

The paladin can smite 2/day, but the zen archer also gets extra flurry attack with ki. Although not as powerful as smiting, the selective nature of the ki gets you +9/+9/+9/+4 when it is needed against whatever targets need it without having to be cautious about the precious smite-commodity. As is, the numbers show that the normal flurry is more than twice the paladin's normal rapid shot, and is competitive even with the smite. The ki flurry is about as good as a smiting paladin + a normal paladin together. This does not account for the Perfect Strike attempts that the monk can make, which push up the DPR even more in favor of the pure zen archer.

Paladin: (deadly aim rapid) +5/+5 (1d8+4; 20/x3)
Expected DPR vs AC 20: 2 * 0.3 * 8.5 = 5.1

Paladin: (smite deadly aim rapid) +9/+9 (1d8+9; 20/x3)
Expected DPR vs AC 20: 2 * 0.5 * 13.5 = 13.5

Zen archer: (deadly flurry) +9/+9/+4 (1d8+6; 20/x3)
Expected DPR vs AC 20: 2 * 0.5 * 10.5 + 0.25 * 10.5 = 10.5

Zen archer: (ki deadly flurry) +9/+9/+9/+4 (1d8+6; 20/x3)
Expected DPR vs AC 20: 3 * 0.5 * 10.5 + 0.25 * 10.5 = 18.375

...

The saves clearly go to the paladin/monk combination (no surprise there) - but that shouldn't detract from how good the zen archer saves actually are. That's plenty respectable at level 7 without a cloak. The zen archer has more options with skill points though.

...

The healing of the paladin is a big plus too - but for a ranged paladin it's not as prominent a power as for a melee paladin.

...

I'd keep High Jump over Deny Death for the added mobility. The zen archer is definitely ahead in the mobility department with higher base speed (and potentially ranks in Acrobatics).

...

PS - the Zen Archer seems to be missing his +1 trait bonus to Fortitude

Of course the zen archer is completely neutralized by DR that screws with piercing damage, or spells like fickle winds or wind wall, and high jump didn't fit with the character background anymore than slow fall.

Nazard, no matter what you say, Lorekeeper will always argue in favour of the monk. It's just what he does. :)

:)

That's fine. To each his own, after all. I'll still go with kitty, who by the way, will not be going by the nickname of "Kitty", planning on maxing out as a paladin 18/monk 2.

So far, the party is:
catfolk archer paladin
Monk (maybe of Milani, maybe not)
Possibly some sort of inquisitor
Unknown
Unknown

Some sort of rogue would be nice. Are traps likely to be a major issue in this AP?

Some sort of rogue would be nice. Are traps likely to be a major issue in this AP?

Hmmm... Good question. There are a couple of traps in the first adventure, but I don't recall the AP as a whole being very trap-heavy.

What about dungeons? We going to spend a great deal of time in 5-foot corridors?

I just had a quick look through all the maps for the AP, and there are very few 5-foot corridors. You do spend some time in caves, but there aren't a whole lot of dungeons, and those there are mostly have 10-foot corridors. That said, the first adventure has a dungeon with 5-foot corridors.

Another balance consideration that is giving me a bit of a build-headache is that all the magical items designed to make combat more lethal are not very friendly with an archetype that assumes 1 attack a round. This gets particularly noticeable for unarmed-builds where a +1 to attack and damage costs 4000gp for unarmed strikes.

I think I they errated the cost of that item recently to be more in line with other weapon bonuses. My search-fu is weak, though, but I'll try to get a link to it.

Which deity are you planning to inquisit for, Dax?

My first thought is Desna. I'm also considering a summoning cleric/healbot.

Nazard, no matter what you say, Lorekeeper will always argue in favour of the monk. It's just what he does. :)

Navior doesn't know what he talks about. In completely disrelated news:

Of course the zen archer is completely neutralized by DR that screws with piercing damage, or spells like fickle winds or wind wall

Unless you have blunt arrows, or aren't averse to use your unarmed damage progression to attack with unarmed strikes. DR as a whole is something that you manage with having a variety of arrows and a well upgraded bow.

How does the paladin do against concealment, total concealment and total cover? A zen archer smiles at those.

Have you considered a paladin 2/zen archer 18? Best of both worlds.

and high jump didn't fit with the character background anymore than slow fall

A catfolk archer you say? ;)

I think I they errated the cost of that item recently to be more in line with other weapon bonuses.

Correct, the cost changed from 5000gp to 4000gp - effectively the amulet is now in-line with paying for the item costs of Two-Weapon Fighting (2 x 2000gp for +1 weapon). And there is of course the 3000gp body wrap of mighty strikes that works for 1 attack a round.

Finally made my way through this thread.

Yes, I admit, I sometimes have a life on weekends (if, by life, you mean running PFS at the local game store).

Yes, I admit, I like monks too much.

Yes, I admit, I have 3 PFS monks (and 2 of them are tengu monks).

But, I really don't mind playing any of the classes or party roles, as needed or as per my current theorycraft interests. I've been thinking of a cleric of Besmara (Varisian Pilgrim archetype (PFS rules: do not give up 8th level domain power for Blessing of the Harrow) for awhile now. I wouldn't mind translating that idea into a character for this PbP.

Of course, I can find a more suitable deity, if needed. It shouldn't be too much of a stretch to rework my ideas to suit Cayden (no Desna though - I hate starknives).

The paladin does just fine with concealment, even total, being able to add the seeking property whenever he needs it. Yeah, limited per day, but enough.

Navior wrote:

Nazard, no matter what you say, Lorekeeper will always argue in favour of the monk. It's just what he does. :)

Navior doesn't know what he talks about.

Ha! :)

Of course, I can find a more suitable deity, if needed. It shouldn't be too much of a stretch to rework my ideas to suit Cayden (no Desna though - I hate starknives).

Clerics aren't required to use their deity's favoured weapon, you know. ;)

So it seems there might be two clerics. You certainly won't have to worry about healing in such a case!

Now we just need a dumb brute.

Don't forget an arcane caster. :)

By the way. It's a ways off - but Jerall just pointed out the new Pathfinder Module line that'll start in May or so. I think they might be well suited for pbps as they cover around a 5-level spread extended story. AP-lite.

Not *this* pbp, of course.

I'm retooling the website for Jade Regent to go with this campaign (since we don't need it for Jade Regent any more). Jatori, PM me your e-mail address and I'll add you to the site permissions.

Were you thinking of using the google site to run the campaign like we did with the aborted Kingmaker. It worked fine except for the lack of a decent dice roller. I'm not sure if Invisible Castle can be made to work with Google sites, because if it can, it's very nice having all the info in one place.

So far we seem to have a pretty holy party shaping up. We just need a bruiser and spell monkey.

Were you thinking of using the google site to run the campaign like we did with the aborted Kingmaker. It worked fine except for the lack of a decent dice roller. I'm not sure if Invisible Castle can be made to work with Google sites, because if it can, it's very nice having all the info in one place.

No, we'll use these boards as normal. The site will primarily be used to post maps, as well as any journals or other notes people choose to write.

Joana has yet to chime in with a character concept. Given her past characters that I've seen her use, I'd bet more on the spell monkey than the bruiser. A wizard or sorcerer would fit in perfectly.

All I've seen are numbers and mechanics and comparisons of builds at level 7. With the exception of Felos, I have no clue what these characters are actually going to be like, to have the slightest feel for party composition and what kind of character might fit in.

"Save the world" is a beauty pageant motivation; I need something less vague and more concrete. If I can't have a motivation beyond "to complete the AP," then I'm already bored.

The problem is if Navior gives much that's more concrete, he risks giving away the plot. He has mentioned that our characters should either want to go to sea or want to own our own ship. I would suggest that a merchant vessel makes the most sense for PCs to aspire to, either that or a privateer vessel.

Has anybody ever tried the halfling opportunist prestige class? Its main ability looks like a lot of fun to play, a lot like the old panache system from the Savage Coast/Red Steel setting.

Has anybody ever tried the halfling opportunist prestige class? Its main ability looks like a lot of fun to play, a lot like the old panache system from the Savage Coast/Red Steel setting.

Until now, I was completely unfamiliar with it. Looks like it could be a fun class though. I might give it a try one day.

The problem is if Navior gives much that's more concrete, he risks giving away the plot. He has mentioned that our characters should either want to go to sea or want to own our own ship. I would suggest that a merchant vessel makes the most sense for PCs to aspire to, either that or a privateer vessel.

I think Joana was referring to finding a character that fits into this specific group. With the exception of Felos, nobody's presented anything more than very vague concepts. She wants to avoid a situation where (I'm making up something completely random here) she creates a halfling opportunist only to find out that everyone else is playing a bunch of halfling haters who enslave every halfling they meet. Your characters need to do more than just fit into the AP; they need to be compatible with each other as well.

And by compatible, I mean personality-wise as well as mechanically.

Yes, that's what I meant.

Well, I've never played Felos before, and I'm usually not very good at coming up with personalities until after a few "sessions", so i'll just start writing some stuff here and see what emerges. My intention is for him to be friendly, warm, and polite. He isn't condescending or self-righteous, and will tolerate small vices, but although he understands the needs for alcohol on board a ship (at least, on a ship without a cleric to purify the drinking water), he regards drunkeness with severe distaste. Appearing drunk in public is an excellent way to lose his respect. Drunkeness aboard ship is a serious breach of discipline, and a danger to ship and crew alike.

He enjoys dancing, though he admits to having only a passable amount of ability. While he is nimble and lithe, he is a bit lazy. He would never shirk his duties, like napping while on watch, but would prefer to not have duties in the first place so he can nap, preferably someplace with warm sunlight. He is a cat, after all.

He lacks the intelligence to come up with good plans on his own, and the wisdom to realize his own inadequate mental faculties, but he has the force of personality that compels him to offer suggestions anyway. That suggests a man with very little verbal filter. Connecting that with his natural politeness and decorum will be an interesting challenge. He's probably the type of person to say what he thinks, realize after the fact that he shouldn't have said it, apologize, and then make the same mistake again soon after.

All that decorum goes out the window when he's faced with evil-doers, especially pirates. To him, piracy is equivalent to treason against the community of seafarers, and he views them the same way a career soldier would view deserters. Intercontinental thugs and bullies, mostly, preying on the honest and innocent.

So far all I have is a name, Orroras, and I know I want to play a divine class (cleric, inquisitor, or oracle). I'm considering an aasimar mostly because I never play one and think it might be neat, but can't figure a way to do so that would be any different than if I played a human.

Yeah, the problem with so many races is trying to make them all distinct. After a while, they just become repetitive.

I've decided upon a human oracle of life. He'll focus on summoning and party support. I'm doing something unusual for me and going all in on charisma.

Str 12
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 20

Excellent. That means we have a party face for a change ;)

Regarding Joana's query:

Festa Fire (current name) imagines himself destined by prophecy to act as a vessel for Milani's will. Though the details are unclear, he believes he will play part in righting a great wrong. He's rather devout with emphasis on Milani (of course), but also respects and calls upon a variety of gods in their aspects.

He is usually settled and at peace within himself, but easily becomes erratic when confronted with slavery or oppression. He places no requirements on his companions, other than that he expects a certain goodness of heart in others and can be very disappointed when he finds that trust shaken.

I've decided upon a human oracle of life. He'll focus on summoning and party support. I'm doing something unusual for me and going all in on charisma.

Str 12
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 20

Small note: That's actually a 21-point build (2+0+2+0+0+17=21). Changing one of the tens to a nine will fix it though (or whatever other option you prefer).

Well you meant to give us 25 points anyway so I'm just being proactive.

Oh, I see! Anything else I meant to give you? ;)

Mythic tiers.

I just thought he'd already included the stat bump.

We are starting at level 4, aren't we?

That seems to sort out the healing bit of our party composition. I'd like to fill out the melee brute role, but I still need to settle on a final character concept and class. It may still be a cleric, or maybe another alchemist sans tentacles and tumours... or a monk :)

We are edging closer to a complete party. Yay!

In other news, the map for the first encounter is one of those 3D perspective maps. It is utterly impossible to fit the grid to MapTool. Sigh. I'm going to have to redraw it entirely. :( Luckily, none of the other maps are like this. I don't why this one was done differently from all the others.

Or remove the grid and just move the icons around free-form, similar to what I do in Crimson pbp

Or remove the grid and just move the icons around free-form, similar to what I do in Crimson pbp

Yes, but there's a printed grid as part of the map that I can't remove and the squares are skewed for the 3D effect, so the ones at the back are smaller than the ones at the front. That means the tokens don't fit all the squares. :)

3d6 ⇒ (6, 3, 6) = 15 x10 = 150 gold

3d6 x10 = 150 gold

Nice roll!

Navior, you said we would start in Corentyn. Where is that? Cheliax?

Yes.

Here it is on a map. (Click on Corentyn under Cities on the right.)

Thanks. I'm considering being an aasimar. It might be amusing to be perscuted as an angel in the land of devils. My inclination would be to try to do more and more good to gain acceptance, but it never seems to work because I just don't get it.