In an upcoming game my son is interested in playing a blaster type Dragon Disciple. Here is the problem, I am having trouble finding a way to meet all of what he wants into the build and still make it a passable Dragon Disciple.
His wishlist:
1. Blaster. He would like to be able to have his primary schtick be casting offensive spells. He doesn't want them to be piddley enough for the enemies to ignore them.
2. He is really attracted to the Sidestep Secret from Oracle. He is also attracted to the Paladin's Divine Grace ability.
3. Dragon Disciple. He wants at least 4 levels of it.
As you can see 2 and 3 really cut into how effective he can be with 1. Honestly, this all started from the desire of playing a full caster but not wanting to completely suck at combat and have nothing to turn back to when he is out of spells.
Honestly, if there were a workable way of doing it I would just say to have him go Aasimar Magus with a single level of Oracle into Dragon Disciple. I don't think he would mind if his blastery spells came in the form of the Magus' spell list. The major problem with that is that Magus doesn't use Cha as a caster stat thus Sidestep Secret is right out and he wouldn't get Divine Grace.
So... Opinions?
A kobold (or human with kobold heritage) can take Scaled Disciple which lets them get into DD via Oracle instead of Sorcerer (and advances Oracle casting). Which lets you build him an Oradin (Oracle w/ 2 level Paladin dip) heading into DD.
That does still leave you with the problem that Lore Oracle is very un-blasty. Why does he want Sidestep Secret anyhow? Unless his Dex is super low, it's not enough to justify choosing a minimally combat focused mystery.
Aasimar qualifies for DD with their spell-like ability, no need to go Kobold. Aasimar is more in theme with his concept anyway.
With Sidestep Secret and Divine Grace the character would add Charisma to Saves, Spell DC and advancement, AC and Reflex saves. That would only leave Strength to be a stat he would need to focus on as well as a bit into Con to make him survivable. Angel Blooded Aasimar grants Strength and Charisma so it seems like a shoe-in.
He could take the Nature instead and get Nature's Whisper which would add to AC and CMD instead but Sidestep seems better.
The closest I can come is to go Paladin 2/Oracle 1/Sorcerer X/Dragon Diciple. But that doesn't make him very blasty. I suppose it would make for a passable gish though.
I only brought up the kobold because blasty sorcerer and Dragon Disciple + 3 levels of non-sorcerer dipping are completely incompatible goals. It's too unfocused and won't be at all effective.
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There are ways btw to make a beefy caster that dont involve DD. But if he is set on it id say base classes should be 1 level fighter, 1 level oracle, rest sorcerer. PrC classes being 4 DD and as many levels of EK he can get away with.
Class Lay Out Ex
F1
O1
S1
S2
DD1
DD2
DD3
DD4
S3
EK1-10
S4
That lay out, at 20, will get you 15 bab and a cl 16. Obviously this is without feats and traits atm.
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Also i failed to mention some beefy casters. A monk 1-2 / druid x is amazing adding wis, the druid's caster stat, to ac which does work in druid forms. A 1-2 level fighter / Sorcerer x / EK 10 also makes for an amazing melee crit caster were every time you crit you can perform a swift cast spell that does not up the level or time of the spell. An Arcane Duelist Bard x / Fighter 1 / EK 10 is also quite powerful especially when you get your Greater Bladed Dash Spell that you can use a a standard action and highly likely to be able to use it again as a swift depending on how lucky you were.
Psion-Psycho: Yep, I am aware of those builds. I also don't want this to discourage you but none of those builds included number 2 from his wish list. : /
I think you are seeing the issue I'm having.
In an upcoming game my son is interested in playing a blaster type Dragon Disciple. Here is the problem, I am having trouble finding a way to meet all of what he wants into the build and still make it a passable Dragon Disciple.
His wishlist:
1. Blaster. He would like to be able to have his primary schtick be casting offensive spells. He doesn't want them to be piddley enough for the enemies to ignore them.2. He is really attracted to the Sidestep Secret from Oracle. He is also attracted to the Paladin's Divine Grace ability.
3. Dragon Disciple. He wants at least 4 levels of it.
As you can see 2 and 3 really cut into how effective he can be with 1. Honestly, this all started from the desire of playing a full caster but not wanting to completely suck at combat and have nothing to turn back to when he is out of spells.
Honestly, if there were a workable way of doing it I would just say to have him go Aasimar Magus with a single level of Oracle into Dragon Disciple. I don't think he would mind if his blastery spells came in the form of the Magus' spell list. The major problem with that is that Magus doesn't use Cha as a caster stat thus Sidestep Secret is right out and he wouldn't get Divine Grace.
So... Opinions?
1. This is easy enough. crossblooded Sorc. Dragon and Orc. He will get 2 extra damage per die on his chosen element, and 1 extra on everything else.
To make up for loss of caster levels later, he takes Magical knack: Sorc.
2. 1 Level dip into Oracle.
3. Mk. Takes 4 levels of DD.
Done. His Sorc Caster level is going to stay his character level, and his damaging spell are going to really, really hurt.
Say he goes with a fire dragon type. A fun addition would be the trait Wayang Spellhunter: Scorching Ray. This will let him Empower it with a 3rd level spell slot. Follow up with the feat Spontaneous Metafocus: scorching ray so the casting time stays regular.
He'd get 3rd level spells at 8th leve though, so he is behind the curve in that regard. But at this level, an empowered scorching ray would do 1.5 x (4d6+8) x2 rays, avg 33 each ray.
He'd get those non-empowered ones by 5th or 6th level, and the non empowered ones would do that same 4d6+8 each, avg 22 damage.
It isn't trivial. He could have fireball at 9th that'd do 9d6+18, or 50 avg damage to a 20ft radius. That's not trivial either.
Until then, he'd have to suffice with burning hands, ideally, which would do 1d4+2 per level. So those would sting too. 4th level, 4d4+8 to a 15ft cone isn't trivial at all... 18 damage, not bad for an aoe 1st level spell.
Yep, that is about as close as I could get too, Remy.
I think for him to be an effective blaster he is going to have to leave off the 2 levels of Paly.
Yep, that is about as close as I could get too, Remy.
I think for him to be an effective blaster he is going to have to leave off the 2 levels of Paly.
What level is this hypothetical character?
If he is leveling it, he could probably squeeze in the paladin levels, but not until later, say, after 3-4th level spell access. It wouldn't be optimal, as at that level you're simply giving up access to better magic... but, doable without becoming useless, and it'd certainly increase his defensive side.
If he is starting off at say, level 12. Paladin2/Oracle1/Sorc5/DD4 would leave him at
Bab 6. Not very fighter.
CL 10, spells know/per day as 8th. BL powers as 9th.
But, remarkable saves, minor self healing. Really good AC.
A fireball for 10d6+20 hits pretty well. Even for 12th character level.
First through whenever the campaign stops.
It is for a Dragon Campaign that I'm going to be running so he will need high saves for dragon fear and breath weapons so I can understand him wanting it. But yeah, by mid level if he fit in the couple of levels of Paladin it wouldn't be so painful I think.
That is a good effective build, Kazaan, but it isn't blasty. At all. Why bard for this kind of character anyway?
Not to be weird or anything, but why not go Pal 2 / Sorceror x / Eldritch Knight? That seems pretty close to what he wants, and it's probably a better gish than the DD.
It is a Dragon based campaign. That is where he is gettin' his dragon in at.
The real problem is that your player wants to be a nuker (which tends to be sub-optimal to begin with), and dip a minimum of 3 levels as well (which makes it weaker to a crippling degree). Some things just aren't to be. I mean, a kobold monk may sound like a cool idea, but don't expect to shine if you've got more standard character around as well.
Personally, I'd work on finding a nuking class and working in the dragon flavour through the backstory (ditch the DD idea). Alternatively, play the DD as a melee brute (Pal 3 / Bard or Summoner or Sorceror 2 / DD). Flaming weapons or claws can replace the nukes for elemental flavour purposes, and at least you'll have a character that can hold his own. Transmutation spells can keep you relevant later on.
Would YOU want to honour a draconic heritage through ineffectual flailing or the casting of a second level spell at level 6?
A third way may be to embrace the heritage differently, though. Play a lore-focused (core) bard. Draconic legends are pretty awesome, and buffing people with the tales of all that glory can make for a pretty entertaining character. If you don't like buffing other people, a Bard (archeologist) 6 / DD can make for a potent melee character, with some handy spell support.
this is less optimized than some of the posted suggestions, but it does meet all of his requests...
aasimar[scion of humanity], take racial heritage[kobold] and scaled disciple
blackened lunar oracle 3/oath of vengeance paladin 2/dragon disciple
prophetic armor (lunar revelation) is the same as sidestep secret
oath of vengeance isn't applicable until 4th but i added it in case pally levels increased later
you'll have to focus on finding all the decent blasting spells/abilities, which blackened will help with. the good news is: smite will improve your attack rolls and spell damage, and you can stack whatever armor you want with the natural armor bonuses you get from DD! also, heavenly radiance at 9th lets you add Sunbeam as a SLA (huge damage vs undead).
this is less optimized than some of the posted suggestions, but it does meet all of his requests...
aasimar[scion of humanity], take racial heritage[kobold] and scaled disciple
blackened lunar oracle 3/oath of vengeance paladin 2/dragon disciple
prophetic armor (lunar revelation) is the same as sidestep secret
oath of vengeance isn't applicable until 4th but i added it in case pally levels increased lateryou'll have to focus on finding all the decent blasting spells/abilities, which blackened will help with. the good news is: smite will improve your attack rolls and spell damage, and you can stack whatever armor you want with the natural armor bonuses you get from DD! also, heavenly radiance at 9th lets you add Sunbeam as a SLA (huge damage vs undead).
What kind of convoluted background story would possibly explain all of this?
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Hmm sadly i cant really think of a feasible way to be a blaster with out going full caster. If he wants all those nifty things of paladin and oracle as stated he would be better off as a high def bruiser. Which in that case i would give the Synthesis Summoner a look over and just have the Ediolon flavored as a wingless dragon at 1st or one with very immature wings that is impeding his ability to fly until he qualifies for the flight evolution. Either way sadly the player at hand is gonna have to trade some thing. Sadly we cant have every thing we want.
What kind of convoluted background story would possibly explain all of this?
well... 8 generations ago Draahzlik the Brave (a kobold) was exiled from his tribe and their warren for the crime of bearing golden scales; in rebellion he embraced the dwarf god Torag and took up the mantle of a paladin- he committed his life to protecting the innocent denizens of the under-realms from attacks by drow and abberations. eventually he attracted the attention of a female Cassisian who fought by his side (and periodically on his head), and in time became his lover (choosing to remain in humanoid form for extended periods).
their daughter Arianna was intimidating despite her stature, looking something like a small-sized draconal agathion and wielding great power as a sorceress. her courage, power, and goodness earned her a place in a great dwarven city, and the love of a cleric of Torag. Their son Grindar stood nearly 5 feet tall and was said to be the handsomest dwarf born in an age (though scholars would point out he was actually an aasimar). wanderlust took him far over land and into the kingdoms of men where he sired two generations of aasimars before the bloodline grew thin and began to yield human children.
its from this line that <your> father, a handsome and talented artist, comes. <your> mother's lineage was not so... complex, though she counts both a celestial sorcerer and sage (expert) with the eldritch heritage[draconic] feats in her recent ancestry. the tinge of celestial blood was enough to revive the aasimaric bloodline in <you>, though only the most astute observer would know it...
It is a Dragon based campaign. That is where he is gettin' his dragon in at.
Honestly, getting the dragon for a blaster is best from the Bloodline and skipping the dragon disciple altogether.
All it does is up his strength at a cost of spell progression, and if his goal is blasting... strength simply isn't the stat he needs. It takes a LOT of strength to make a sorc melee capable. Not that it cannot be done, just that it takes all of the character's resources to do it and doesn't leave them all that blasty afterwards.
Oracle- Nature/Lore 1
Sorc- Orc+Draconic 6-8
Paladin 2
Sorc 11-9
What kind of convoluted background story would possibly explain all of this?this is less optimized than some of the posted suggestions, but it does meet all of his requests...
aasimar[scion of humanity], take racial heritage[kobold] and scaled disciple
blackened lunar oracle 3/oath of vengeance paladin 2/dragon disciple
prophetic armor (lunar revelation) is the same as sidestep secret
oath of vengeance isn't applicable until 4th but i added it in case pally levels increased lateryou'll have to focus on finding all the decent blasting spells/abilities, which blackened will help with. the good news is: smite will improve your attack rolls and spell damage, and you can stack whatever armor you want with the natural armor bonuses you get from DD! also, heavenly radiance at 9th lets you add Sunbeam as a SLA (huge damage vs undead).
Cthulhu stirred in his slumber, just for a moment, and one of the nightmarish and unfathomable thoughts from his mind escaped to manifest in the world.
Remy: thats about what I got too. Alternatively 4 levels of DD only drops 1 caster level. He could feasibly work those in at some point. I may also convince him to drop the paly levels depending on how gish he wants to be.
Remy: thats about what I got too. Alternatively 4 levels of DD only drops 1 caster level. He could feasibly work those in at some point. I may also convince him to drop the paly levels depending on how gish he wants to be.
Well, normally I consider some of the following tricks to be a bit munchkiny, but since this concept is stretched thin, I figure I'll throw em out there.
Magical Lineage/Wayang spellhunter traits reduce the spell level of a selected spell when applying metamagic to it.
This is very helpful to a cross-blooded sorcerer, as when they gain access to a new spell level, they won't have any known spells of this level. So benefit greatly from access to metamagic.
Picking a single spell to focus on makes this tactic even stronger. Using one of those traits reduces the total level by 1. In theory, using them both would reduce the level by two... basically free empower, maximize only a +1, and quickened only a +2.
Unfortunately, Magical Lineage and Magical Knack are the same category of trait... because this concept is going to lose some CLs, magical knack seems the better option.
Even with just Wayang Spellhunter, you can empower for +1, maximize for +2, and quicken for +3. This helps offset the lowered progression and lowered spells known issue.
There is also a highly gimicky way to up this character's effectiveness. Paragon Surge. It is a 3rd level spell, requires that he be a half-elf. But while under the effects of the spell, he gains a temporary feat.
Why is that gimicky? Well, selecting Extra Spells as the feat gives him another spell known, that he can freely select. It only lasts for the duration of Paragon Surge...but it is remarkably effective to be able to freely pick any spell as a spell known whenever you need it. He could also pick a number of other feats that are ridiculously effective when used this way.
There is also the option to skip Oracle altogether and instead pick up a Ring of Revelation. It'd cost like 10k or something in that ballpark, and require a UMD check to activate it every hour... but, if he got his UMD skill high enough it'd be pretty reliable.
If you are willing to go with a 3rd party product, Super Genius Games has a feat (with Skill Focus as a prerequisite) in Feats of Multiclassing that would let a non-oracle take a single oracle revelation around level 3. Their Godling PDFs include a talent (which could be gained by a couple of feats) that would let him gain charisma instead of the usual stat as a bonus to saves (not quite as good as divine grace, but close). If you allow those feats and the character takes no more than 4 levels of dragon disciple with the rest as sorcerer, then he only loses one level of spells per day/spells known. For race, make the character human (for that extra feat) and he will have (nearly) everything he wants by 6th level (4 feats by 5th level, and his first level of dragon disciple at 6th level).
Between the slower spell progression of Dragon Disciple, 2 levels of Paladin, and a level of Oracle, his caster level will be down by 4 (or 2 if he takes Magical Knack). And blaster casters live and die by their caster level. If you give him everything he wants, odds are he'll get frustrated with how sucky his blasting is.
Would it be possible to use a 3PP or custom dragon race instead of Dragon Disciple? That way you could focus on Oracle, with the Blackened curse to add some fire spells to your spells known and function as a blaster. You could keep caster level at character level with Magical Knack (which is still weak for a blaster, but maybe he can live with it).
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What kind of convoluted background story would possibly explain all of this?this is less optimized than some of the posted suggestions, but it does meet all of his requests...
aasimar[scion of humanity], take racial heritage[kobold] and scaled disciple
blackened lunar oracle 3/oath of vengeance paladin 2/dragon disciple
prophetic armor (lunar revelation) is the same as sidestep secret
oath of vengeance isn't applicable until 4th but i added it in case pally levels increased lateryou'll have to focus on finding all the decent blasting spells/abilities, which blackened will help with. the good news is: smite will improve your attack rolls and spell damage, and you can stack whatever armor you want with the natural armor bonuses you get from DD! also, heavenly radiance at 9th lets you add Sunbeam as a SLA (huge damage vs undead).
Amnesia.
Between the slower spell progression of Dragon Disciple, 2 levels of Paladin, and a level of Oracle, his caster level will be down by 4 (or 2 if he takes Magical Knack). And blaster casters live and die by their caster level. If you give him everything he wants, odds are he'll get frustrated with how sucky his blasting is.
A crossblooded orc/draconic sorc doesn't have sucky blasts, even if his caster level isn't maxed out.
Caster level 10 fireball; 10d6. Avg 35 damage.
Caster level 7 orc/draconic fireball; 7d6+14. Avg 38.5 damage
Just sayin
Between the slower spell progression of Dragon Disciple, 2 levels of Paladin, and a level of Oracle, his caster level will be down by 4 (or 2 if he takes Magical Knack). And blaster casters live and die by their caster level. If you give him everything he wants, odds are he'll get frustrated with how sucky his blasting is.A crossblooded orc/draconic sorc doesn't have sucky blasts, even if his caster level isn't maxed out.
Caster level 10 fireball; 10d6. Avg 35 damage.
Caster level 7 orc/draconic fireball; 7d6+14. Avg 38.5 damageJust sayin
Of course, that locks you in to your bloodlines, and gives you the -2 penalty to Will saves and fewer spells known. Also, if you ever want to cast a spell that's not fire, your damage goes down quite a bit.
Between the slower spell progression of Dragon Disciple, 2 levels of Paladin, and a level of Oracle, his caster level will be down by 4 (or 2 if he takes Magical Knack). And blaster casters live and die by their caster level. If you give him everything he wants, odds are he'll get frustrated with how sucky his blasting is.A crossblooded orc/draconic sorc doesn't have sucky blasts, even if his caster level isn't maxed out.
Caster level 10 fireball; 10d6. Avg 35 damage.
Caster level 7 orc/draconic fireball; 7d6+14. Avg 38.5 damageJust sayin
That's before saves. Let's be generous and say that enemies only save 1/4 of the time and call it 30 damage in a round. That's at level 10, when melee types do double that (accounting for movement, or it'd be triple) without using up spell slots. And *then* there is elemental resistance, and spell resistance. You *were* planning on spell penetration feats, I hope?
That's before saves. Let's be generous and say that enemies only save 1/4 of the time and call it 30 damage in a round. That's at level 10, when melee types do double that (accounting for movement, or it'd be triple) without using up spell slots. And *then* there is elemental resistance, and spell resistance. You *were* planning on spell penetration feats, I hope?Between the slower spell progression of Dragon Disciple, 2 levels of Paladin, and a level of Oracle, his caster level will be down by 4 (or 2 if he takes Magical Knack). And blaster casters live and die by their caster level. If you give him everything he wants, odds are he'll get frustrated with how sucky his blasting is.A crossblooded orc/draconic sorc doesn't have sucky blasts, even if his caster level isn't maxed out.
Caster level 10 fireball; 10d6. Avg 35 damage.
Caster level 7 orc/draconic fireball; 7d6+14. Avg 38.5 damageJust sayin
Well that just went all over the place...
I was comparing the two, to show that 'it can be done'. Which the contention was 'it will be sucky'.
If you'd like to discuss the pros and cons of caster vs melee, or aoe vs single target... that is an entirely different conversation.
(But I will note that your estimates for melee damage potential seems ludicrous)
Of course, that locks you in to your bloodlines, and gives you the -2 penalty to Will saves and fewer spells known. Also, if you ever want to cast a spell that's not fire, your damage goes down quite a bit.Between the slower spell progression of Dragon Disciple, 2 levels of Paladin, and a level of Oracle, his caster level will be down by 4 (or 2 if he takes Magical Knack). And blaster casters live and die by their caster level. If you give him everything he wants, odds are he'll get frustrated with how sucky his blasting is.A crossblooded orc/draconic sorc doesn't have sucky blasts, even if his caster level isn't maxed out.
Caster level 10 fireball; 10d6. Avg 35 damage.
Caster level 7 orc/draconic fireball; 7d6+14. Avg 38.5 damageJust sayin
CL 10 avg 35 from 10d6
CL 8 (orc.dra) avg 44 from 8d6+16 for fire (assuming fire dragon)
CL 8 (orc.dra) avg 36 from 8d6+8 for non-fire (assuming fire dragon)
2 CLs lower, and the orc/dragonic sorc blasts hurt just as well, and/or better.
Do they have their own drawbacks? Of course they do. But the quality of their blasts isn't the setback. -2 will saves? Right, true. But... he adds his CHA to his will saves...
He'll work as a blaster. He wont have the versatility of spells one normally expects of a full caster... but he isn't aiming for that.
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There is also the option to skip Oracle altogether and instead pick up a Ring of Revelation. It'd cost like 10k or something in that ballpark, and require a UMD check to activate it every hour... but, if he got his UMD skill high enough it'd be pretty reliable.
This is what I would suggest as well. It will require some leniency on the part of the GM (you) as current opinion on the exact wording of the ring and the UMD skill leans towards it not working unless you have at least one level of (any mystery) oracle. But hey, that's what house rules are for!
I might also suggest he look at the spell bestow grace and consider getting scrolls or a wand he can UMD to take the place of the paladin levels. It's not always active but the minimum duration is 4 minutes, which will last just about any fight.
There is also the option to skip Oracle altogether and instead pick up a Ring of Revelation. It'd cost like 10k or something in that ballpark, and require a UMD check to activate it every hour... but, if he got his UMD skill high enough it'd be pretty reliable.This is what I would suggest as well. It will require some leniency on the part of the GM (you) as current opinion on the exact wording of the ring and the UMD skill leans towards it not working unless you have at least one level of (any mystery) oracle. But hey, that's what house rules are for!
I might also suggest he look at the spell bestow grace and consider getting scrolls or a wand he can UMD to take the place of the paladin levels. It's not always active but the minimum duration is 4 minutes, which will last just about any fight.
The question of if it works is out there. But with this particular revelation it is at least feasible, since it has no level dependent values.
Some other revelations do things based on oracle level, and those simply wouldn't work at all for a non-oracle. The ones that let you use Cha to AC don't have that variable at all, so you can make a good case for allowing them.