Making dual-wielding as useful as possible


Advice

Silver Crusade

So i got all excited about using an awesome miniature as the basis of a character for starfinder, but his 2 swords wont work (in any believable/satisfying way) with multi-weapon fighting. I have another miniature i'm basing a character around who has 2 pistols, who i'm going to be using MWF with, but; i really want to try and squeeze as much usefulness as possible out of the fact that i'm holding 2 weapons both in order to optimize my 2 pistol dude and to see if there's any way to build a 2 sword character who actually has some appreciable benefits to dishing out the creds for 2 weapons.
So far i've got the following as pluses:
- having 2 different damage types allows you to swap between them without having to draw/sheathe
- double the ammo (including melee, as some have charges) and have an immediate backup if you're disarmed

what other advantages can people think of?

thanks! :)


You can make a good two knife character if you go melee operative. They get the ability to make a lot more attacks with a full attack action, so if you make an Operative with decent strength and take multi weapon fighting and weapon focus, you can do pretty good.

Liberty's Edge

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Yeah, Operatives can make good use of paired batons, knives, or pistols via Multiweapon Fighting. Maybe not quite optimal, but handy.

For the two swords...yeah, it's pretty much just the stuff you list. It's not really a mechanically advantageous thing to do in Starfinder. Not with two of the same weapon anyway.

A, say, sword and taclash character can be awesome, using the sword for attacks and buying the Feats to be good at trip and disarm and using the taclash for those.


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Actual multi weapon fighting is rough. BUT. there are a few cases where holding two weapons at once (though not attacking with them the same round) is useful. Say, if one weapon is unwieldy, you can hold a different weapon in your other hand for AoO. Or one melee weapon uses charges, and the other doesn't. Use the analog (and typically less damaging) weapon for mobs. Use your powered weapon (that you eventually need to reload) for powerful opponents, or desperate moments.

Same for pistols. Plasma pistol in one hand for lined up shots. A single target pistol for otherwise.

Or, one of, say, electric damage, the other, slashing or piercing. That way, if you run into DR, you don't need to draw a different weapon... you already have it in hand.


For an operative use your operative weapon for normal attacks and then an advanced melee weapon (feat or multi-class for proficiency) for AoO.
MDC

Liberty's Edge

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

For an operative use your operative weapon for normal attacks and then an advanced melee weapon (feat or multi-class for proficiency) for AoO.

MDC

This is generally a pretty bad idea, actually. Unless you invest immensely heavily in Str anyway.

-2 to hit for +2 damage at 1st level is a really bad trade, so this gets started slow-to-nonexistent. In fact, the -2 to hit for +14 damage at 12th level is finally just barely worth it (making average damage go from 10.5 to 14, assuming Weapon Focus in both). The -2 to hit for +55 damage we're talking at 20th level is actually quite good (+23 DPR on AoO).

But this whole thing assumes an extra level appropriate weapon and three Feats spent purely on this trick, plus a rather heavy stat investment in Str (14 to start, leveled up every time, your second best upgrade).


It also presumed the GM is going to be consistently provoking AoOs for no apparent reason, which is dubious at best. It's a bafflingly heavy investment reliant on a GM taking pity on a bad character build by running enemies as idiots.


Voss wrote:
It also presumed the GM is going to be consistently provoking AoOs for no apparent reason, which is dubious at best. It's a bafflingly heavy investment reliant on a GM taking pity on a bad character build by running enemies as idiots.

Not really.

Not all fights are out in the open.

I was provoking AoO's left and right in our game Saturday. We were in a classic "Dungeon" setting and multiple times I was able to back pew-pew'ers against a wall. If they're against the wall and I'm standing front and center then I am getting that AoO. Shoot from melee? I'm hitting you. Cast from melee? I'm hitting you. Guarded step? Be my guest no matter where you go from this point I am in melee.

Remember, again, not all enemies are tactical geniuses. If you run all of your enemies like they are seal team six then you're not being fair and you aren't doing it right.

I'll use this as an example:

In another thread someone was talking about how bad melee was. They were claiming that they had run the Guild Quest Starfinder Society four times and every time they had all of the enemies in the first encounter focus fire down the "stupid melee" who ran out to engage them.

They explained that they had enemies sit back and focus fire down anyone who wasn't in cover.

... Until I pointed out that the scenario specifically gives enemy behavior and states that:

1. The thugs will attempt to enter melee combat.
2. The thugs will attempt to engage different targets whenever possible.

(There was never a reply once this was pointed out.)

The point being - It is fine for a military minded enemy to be a master of tactical positioning. When everyone starts doing it? When ANIMALS start doing it (which I have seen bad GMs do) then there is a serious problem.

To use the Guild Quest example:

(Aside from the book actually saying how they behave)

Look at the stat blocks:

+0 Intelligence, +0 Wisdom - These guys are dead average at best. They are not tactical commandos.

-----

As far as AoOs -

For those who insinuate that it isn't possible, I'll point to another map in Guild Quest.

The Endless Threnody - This combat map is a series of 10 foot wide hallways.

You can all but guarantee AoOs on any ranged opponent in a 10 foot wide hallway, at the very least forcing 2 separate Acrobatics checks (DC 15+(1.5xCR)) and eat up 10 feet per square they try to move through.

-----

Starfinder is NOT a game about "mock the stupid melees" and we can see that from the published APs and adventures that we have. You are supposed to create environments where sometimes ranged is better and sometimes melee is better. Don't bring your personal bias into adventure design.


Critical effects can be something to look into. While its not going to happen all the time it can be a strong combo.

When full attacking in later levels you can make a lot of attacks increasing the likelihood of crits.

The combo I kind of like is knock down and staggering. Staggered while prone makes it so all they can do is stand up, or stay down and try to attack from the ground.

It will rarely happen in tandem, but looking for things with strong critical hit effects can be helpful when consistently full attacking.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

For an operative use your operative weapon for normal attacks and then an advanced melee weapon (feat or multi-class for proficiency) for AoO.

MDC

This is generally a pretty bad idea, actually. Unless you invest immensely heavily in Str anyway.

-2 to hit for +2 damage at 1st level is a really bad trade, so this gets started slow-to-nonexistent. In fact, the -2 to hit for +14 damage at 12th level is finally just barely worth it (making average damage go from 10.5 to 14, assuming Weapon Focus in both). The -2 to hit for +55 damage we're talking at 20th level is actually quite good (+23 DPR on AoO).

But this whole thing assumes an extra level appropriate weapon and three Feats spent purely on this trick, plus a rather heavy stat investment in Str (14 to start, leveled up every time, your second best upgrade).

The idea is for later development and not at level 1 or 2.

For D&D clone games I generally like to tell the GM what my plan of advancement (levels 1-5, then 5-10, etc) will be so they can see if there will be any problems with their game and or rules we might be testing/evaluating.

MDC


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Seems like the old swashbuckling sword and pistol is pretty useful. That way if you get engaged in melee you can reply in kind without invoking any AoO and then shoot when they are not in melee range which gives you options.

As others have said melee and taclash is useful as well so you can do some combat maneuvers easier and I believe it has some reach so you are less screwed if a target is just out of melee range for some reason.

Silver Crusade

another advantage! :D

you increase the amount of fusions you have access to. so at level 1 (after getting some more cash) i could have a longsword with a lvl 1 fusion and either another longsword with another lvl 1 fusion, or a dueling sword with a lvl 2 fusion

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