I was hoping the community could help me clarify a rules point with our group.
One of the characters has a pair of Golden Lions and uses them pretty frequently in combat. The question that was raised is:
When the lion makes a successful bite attack and gets to use grab, which initiates a free grapple, would it still get to use both of it's attacks? My contention on it is, yes. Because, if you decided to claw, claw and then bite - it would initiate the grapple. Thoughts?
Also, the "rake" ability while the cat has the creature grappled - is that an extra attack in addition to the bite/claw/claw? I ask only because it talks about "rake" as an ADDITIONAL attack to everything else. Or does the rake replace the claw attacks because you are grappling?
I guess it all depends on how the grapple goes down.....Any clarity is greatly appreciated.
More specifically: Since the grapple was free to initiate, on the next round I could conceivably rake, then let go of the grapple, claw claw and bite, reinitiating the grapple. Thus getting the rake/claw/claw/bite all in. Thoughts?
Grapple does not prevent any other natural attacks. It does impose a -2 to hit, but since the target of the attacks has a -4 to dex from being grappled it is a wash.
Rake can be used under 2 circumstances.
1) On a charge from a creature that also has the pounce ability. (Lions have pounce.)
2) When you start the turn with the grappled condition. (You do not even need to be in control of the grapple.)
You could play the catch and release game, but if you miss with the bite then you no longer have the grapple.
The rake attacks do not replace the claw attacks technically, because in some circumstances you can get them both. But, in practice they do. To maintain a grapple you must spend a standard action to do so, so no full attack, thus no claw attacks. But you do get your rake attacks as free actions. Or you could full attack and get claw/claw/bite. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. The only real question is whether or not there is a tactical advantage in keeping the foe grappled.
P.S. The attack sequence is rake/rake/claw/claw/bite. You get 2 rakes.
So then you could technically rake, rake - release the grapple, claw, claw, bite - grapple. Correct?
No, because maintaining the grapple is a standard action.
Most creatures have a limited selection of choices when choosing to maintain (damage, move or pin).
Rake is simply an additional option. Others exist as well, such as the Crocodile's Death Roll.
If you want the Lion to utilize its claw/claw/bite again, then you'd have to drop the grapple as a free action at the start of its turn, rather than spending a standard action to maintain.
Rake is a free action, and all are primary attacks, so technically you can rake (free action), release the grapple (free action, and then full attack (full round action). Some GMs may be offended by this, however.
Rake is a free action, and all are primary attacks, so technically you can rake (free action), release the grapple (free action, and then full attack (full round action). Some GMs may be offended by this, however.Eh, while I see where you are getting that reading, that's most likely not what the rule means.
The relevant passage: In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe.
The "in addition to" is referring to the actions you can make when maintaining a grapple, so I would read it as the rakes occurring as a free action as part of the maintaining action.
Free actions are discrete actions, not part of another action unless explicitly so stated. Drawing a weapon while moving is the only example I can think of that has a free action that is part of another action. Since neither rake nor grapple have such limiting language those free action rakes are not part of the grapple action; they are discrete.
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Free actions are discrete actions, not part of another action unless explicitly so stated. Drawing a weapon while moving is the only example I can think of that has a free action that is part of another action. Since neither rake nor grapple have such limiting language those free action rakes are not part of the grapple action; they are discrete.Rake is a free action, and all are primary attacks, so technically you can rake (free action), release the grapple (free action, and then full attack (full round action). Some GMs may be offended by this, however.Eh, while I see where you are getting that reading, that's most likely not what the rule means.
The relevant passage: In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe.
The "in addition to" is referring to the actions you can make when maintaining a grapple, so I would read it as the rakes occurring as a free action as part of the maintaining action.
Before you can rake you need to maintain the grapple.
If you don't maintain the grapple the target is released at the start of the turn.You can't say "I will later try to maintain the grapple, so now I can rake", you need a confirmed grapple.
Similarly you can't move and move your target with you and then confirm the grapple. For that kind of actions you need to have already confirmed the grapple for that turn.
Free actions are discrete actions, not part of another action unless explicitly so stated. Drawing a weapon while moving is the only example I can think of that has a free action that is part of another action. Since neither rake nor grapple have such limiting language those free action rakes are not part of the grapple action; they are discrete.Rake is a free action, and all are primary attacks, so technically you can rake (free action), release the grapple (free action, and then full attack (full round action). Some GMs may be offended by this, however.Eh, while I see where you are getting that reading, that's most likely not what the rule means.
The relevant passage: In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe.
The "in addition to" is referring to the actions you can make when maintaining a grapple, so I would read it as the rakes occurring as a free action as part of the maintaining action.
Before you can rake you need to maintain the grapple.
If you don't maintain the grapple the target is released at the start of the turn.
You can't say "I will later try to maintain the grapple, so now I can rake", you need a confirmed grapple.
Similarly you can't move and move your target with you and then confirm the grapple. For that kind of actions you need to have already confirmed the grapple for that turn.
Not supported by the rules anywhere. You are saying that no free actions can happen before the grapple check. That means that you could not release the grapple (free action) before you try to maintain the grapple, which is in direct conflict with the rules.
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Not supported by the rules anywhere. You are saying that no free actions can happen before the grapple check. That means that you could not release the grapple (free action) before you try to maintain the grapple, which is in direct conflict with the rules.
You are completely missing the point. You can't take any action that depend on maintaining the grapple before you make the check to maintain the grapple. You can't play the Schrodinger grapple where you are maintaining and non maintaining it at the same time.
You can't take the free action "release the grapple2 before maintaining the grapple as the two actions boil down to the same thing. You either maintain the grapple or you release it.
The free action "release" is a separate action from the "non maintain the grapple" decision only if you take it when you aren't forced by the rules to decide between "maintain" and "non maintain".
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Where do the rules require a maintain at the beginning of the turn?
They don't. You can Rage before maintaining, you can sheath a weapon before maintaining, you can Rake before maintaining.
Rake, Rake, Release, Claw, Claw, Bite is as legitimate as Rake, Rake, Maintain to Damage and is as legitimate as Maintain to Damage, Rake, Rake. I'm sure you can tell what the more optimal options are, so use those options.
He didn't say you have to maintain at the start of your turn. He said you have to maintain before raking, which is a reasonable reading of the rake rules, as they are mentioned as attacks that you gain in addition to your other options when grappling.Where do the rules require a maintain at the beginning of the turn?
They don't. You can Rage before maintaining, you can sheath a weapon before maintaining, you can Rake before maintaining.
Rake, Rake, Release, Claw, Claw, Bite is as legitimate as Rake, Rake, Maintain to Damage and is as legitimate as Maintain to Damage, Rake, Rake. I'm sure you can tell what the more optimal options are, so use those options.
And one of those options is let go. The free action rakes are explicitly in addition to the other options, so you can rake and then let go.
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It is interesting to see that now we have the Schrodinger grappler, that is capable to grapple and not grapple at the same time.
If you are using an ability that require you to have a grappled target you should maintain before using it.
If you use an ability that require you not to be grapple, you have to release/not maintain the grapple before using it.
For those saying you can rake, and the release the grapple as a free action do you think that is what the PDT would say if they weighed in right now, or are you just saying "intent doesn't matter, only the words do"?
I am asking because many times one side is arguing how they think the rules are intended to work, and the other side is knows the intent, but they are arguing what the book says.
If the PDT follows true to form over the last couple of years the answer is "whatever will cause the biggest nerf, regardless of the words."
It is interesting to see that now we have the Schrodinger grappler, that is capable to grapple and not grapple at the same time.
If you are using an ability that require you to have a grappled target you should maintain before using it.
If you use an ability that require you not to be grapple, you have to release/not maintain the grapple before using it.
To rake you must be in a grapple. There is nothing stating that the rake is part of the "maintain grapple action". You are adding that last bit.
Are you grappled (have the grappled condition) before you release a grapple? Since the answer is obviously yes you never have the Schrodinger's grapple that you claim. You are grappled, so you can rake. Then you release the grapple. This is sequential, not simultaneous.
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If the PDT follows true to form over the last couple of years the answer is "whatever will cause the biggest nerf, regardless of the words."
So your answer is ?????
Seeing the Lion can rake rake bite claw claw + initiate grapple on the initial turn pounce, I don't see what's wrong with the Lion rake rake let-go-of-grapple full-attack bite claw claw + initiate grapple on the following turns.For those saying you can rake, and the release the grapple as a free action do you think that is what the PDT would say if they weighed in right now, or are you just saying "intent doesn't matter, only the words do"?
I am asking because many times one side is arguing how they think the rules are intended to work, and the other side is knows the intent, but they are arguing what the book says.
So which side of my question do you fall on?
It is interesting to see that now we have the Schrodinger grappler, that is capable to grapple and not grapple at the same time.
If you are using an ability that require you to have a grappled target you should maintain before using it.
If you use an ability that require you not to be grapple, you have to release/not maintain the grapple before using it.To rake you must be in a grapple. There is nothing stating that the rake is part of the "maintain grapple action". You are adding that last bit.
Are you grappled (have the grappled condition) before you release a grapple? Since the answer is obviously yes you never have the Schrodinger's grapple that you claim. You are grappled, so you can rake. Then you release the grapple. This is sequential, not simultaneous.
The issue at hand is there is debate over "there is nothing stating that the rake is part of the "maintain grapple action"". The rake rules state:
In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe.
Here is the relevant portion of the grapple rules:
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition. If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the...
I agree that this is a perfectly valid interpretation and would not argue with a GM over it. Arguing on a message board however...