I currently run an Iron Gods adventure path with a magus, skald, gunslinger, bloodrager, and fighter. The magus, with Str 14, has trouble hitting with Spellstrike. If he accepted the skald's Inspired Rage song, he would gain +2 to Strength for a +1 to attack rolls. But he routinely rejects it, because it prevents spellcasting.
The Skald's player has developed a Rube Goldberg plan to overcome this handicap when the party reaches 5th level next week. I have checked over the rules, and it appear that it will work. But I would appreciate other eyes examining her plan for complications.
At 5th level, the skald gains spell kenning and will take the Craft Wand feat.
Spell Kenning (Su): At 5th level, a skald is learned in the magic of other spellcasters, and can use his own magic to duplicate those classes' spells. Once per day, a skald can cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or sorcerer/wizard spell list as if it were one of his skald spells known, expending a skald spell slot of the same spell level to cast the desired spell. A spell cast with spell kenning always has a minimum casting time of 1 full round, regardless of the casting time of the spell.
She believes that she can combine the two to create wands with spells known only through spell kenning. I agree, but the only related rules thread I found was unanswered, Spell Kenning + Scribe Scroll?. I pointed out that if the spell is not on the skald's spell list, then she can use the wand herself only through Use Magic Device.
She intends to craft a wand of Shocking Grasp, which is on the magus's spell list, and give it to the magus. The magus, while using Inspired Rage, can use the wand beause that is not casting a spell. And he can channel the attack from the Shocking Grasp charge through his rapier.
As the GM, I will rule that this works, but I am curious whether it works under the rules as written.
They can not channel the Shocking Grasp through their weapon using Spellstrike.
Spellstrike (su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
The Magus must cast the spell to use it with Spellstrike.
Even Wand Wielder arcana doesn't change that. It just allows the use of the wand as part of spell combat.
Note that the idea still has merit. Instead of Shocking Grasp, how about Bladed Dash (Inner Sea Magic) or some of the battlefield control spells like Grease?
Small Magus with a -2 STR race?
They can not channel the Shocking Grasp through their weapon using Spellstrike.
Spellstrike (su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.The Magus must cast the spell to use it with Spellstrike.
Even Wand Wielder arcana doesn't change that. It just allows the use of the wand as part of spell combat.
Thank you for catching that.
Ah, interesting Catch-22 for my houserule. If I rule that activating a wand counts as casting a spell for Spellstrike, then it would require concentration and could not be used while accepting the Inspired Rage song. Instead, my houserule will have to be that Spellstrike can be used for a touch melee attack from activating a wand, too. Maybe I should ask the magus to learn a homebrew arcana that allows that.
A better question is if he can use Moment of Clarity combined with Spellstrike.
Moment of Clarity is a rage power that lets a barbarian, skald, or primalist bloodrager continue raging but ignore the benefits and penalties of raging for a round. I allow the characters to chose at the beginning of their turn whether they will be affected by the skald's Inspire Rage song that turn. Thus, everyone except the skald herself has the equivalent of Moment of Clarity for free.
Sometimes, when the magus cast Shocking Grasp and then missed with his attack that turn, he would hold the charge in his rapier, accept the ragesong on his next turn, and attack with Spellstrike while raging. I presume this is how you imagined Moment of Clarity working with Spellstrike.
As an aside, how did you end up with a Magus with 14 Strength? I assume they have low Dexterity too based on your problem...
The magus is a half-elf with a 20-point build. At 1st level, his stats were Str 14, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 17, Wis 12, Cha 11. The 4th-level increase in an attribute boosted Int to 18.
This is the player's first arcane spellcasting character and first Pathfinder character, but he had played a barbarian with a dip into cleric in D&D 3.5. He did not know how to optimize stats for a magus. He is the smartest person in the game and I thought he would do fine without me guiding him to a Guide to the Magus. He did want to maximize Knowledge(Engineering), which is a vital skill in the Iron Gods campaign.
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At 5th level, the skald gains spell kenning and will take the Craft Wand feat.
Spell Kenning (Su): At 5th level, a skald is learned in the magic of other spellcasters, and can use his own magic to duplicate those classes' spells. Once per day, a skald can cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or sorcerer/wizard spell list as if it were one of his skald spells known, expending a skald spell slot of the same spell level to cast the desired spell. A spell cast with spell kenning always has a minimum casting time of 1 full round, regardless of the casting time of the spell.She believes that she can combine the two to create wands with spells known only through spell kenning. I agree, but the only related rules thread I found was unanswered, Spell Kenning + Scribe Scroll?. I pointed out that if the spell is not on the skald's spell list, then she can use the wand herself only through Use Magic Device.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
I doubt that "as if it were one of his skald spells known," will satisfy the first part of the bolded sentence, and a wand is a spell trigger item, so you need to have the spell when making it, but she can work together with the magus, she using the feat, he memorizing and spending the spell (second part of the bolded sentence), so they together can make the wand.
Perhaps a retraining switch to the Spellwarrior Archetype might help with the groupmates accepting the buff then.
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I know that many people agree with the activating wands does not work with spellstrike argument, but I disagree with that.
Under wands it says: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Note that you are still casting a spell, which to me seems to satisfy the requirements for spellstrike (as long as it is a magus spell). That said, it isn't clear that you can activate a wand if under the effects of raging song, and I would assume that if you counted wands as I do you certainly could not.
Moment of Clarity is a swift action, so it's a matter of whether they can choose the "slightly more than free action" after landing the blow but before a spell is cast. I imagine it can't but it's not a terrible work around.
That would work with a Spell Combat in which he attacks before spellcasting, but the magus has been avoiding Spell Combat due to the -2 to hit. The magus cannot learn rage powers himself, but if the skald learns Moment of Clarity, he would be able to use it. Something to keep in mind for later levels, when the magus relies less on Spellstrike.
At 5th level, the skald gains spell kenning and will take the Craft Wand feat.
Spell Kenning (Su): At 5th level, a skald is learned in the magic of other spellcasters, and can use his own magic to duplicate those classes' spells. Once per day, a skald can cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or sorcerer/wizard spell list as if it were one of his skald spells known, expending a skald spell slot of the same spell level to cast the desired spell. A spell cast with spell kenning always has a minimum casting time of 1 full round, regardless of the casting time of the spell.She believes that she can combine the two to create wands with spells known only through spell kenning. I agree, but the only related rules thread I found was unanswered, Spell Kenning + Scribe Scroll?. I pointed out that if the spell is not on the skald's spell list, then she can use the wand herself only through Use Magic Device.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.I doubt that "as if it were one of his skald spells known," will satisfy the first part of the bolded sentence, and a wand is a spell trigger item, so you need to have the spell when making it, but she can work together with the magus, she using the feat, he memorizing and spending the spell (second part of the bolded sentence), so they together can make...
Diego Rossi and I must speak English differently, because to me, "as if it were one of his skald spells known," means to treat her as a caster who knows the spell temporarily. Since a prepared caster ceases to know the spell once it is expended for the day, the requirement cannot be to know the spell throughout the entire multi-day wand-crafting period. Instead, the simplest interpretation is that the wand maker must know the spell when the spell slot is consumed. And spell kenning does that.
Cleric domain spells that are not on the cleric/oracle spell list can be used the same way.
I know that many people agree with the activating wands does not work with spellstrike argument, but I disagree with that.
Under wands it says: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
I have been reading old Rules Forum threads about that. A good counterargument is that "casting a spell from a wand" means that the wand itself is casting the spell under the wielder's direction. Supporting evidence is that the wielder cannot apply metamagic to the wand's spell and the spell uses the wand's Caster Level.
Note that you are still casting a spell, which to me seems to satisfy the requirements for spellstrike (as long as it is a magus spell). That said, it isn't clear that you can activate a wand if under the effects of raging song, and I would assume that if you counted wands as I do you certainly could not.
You noticed the same catch that I noticed. If activating a wand counts as casting a spell, then activating a wand while raging is not allowed.
However, in browsing the threads about wand-wielding magi, I found a loophole at Magus Aracana - Close range and wand wielder?.
Close Range (Ex): The magus can deliver ray spells that feature a ranged touch attack as melee touch spells. He can use a ranged touch attack spell that targets more than one creature (such as scorching ray), but he makes only one melee touch attack to deliver one of these ranged touch effects; additional ranged touch attacks from that spell are wasted and have no effect. These spells can be used with the spellstrike class feature.
By the words as written, Close Range arcana does not require that the magus cast the ray spell himself. Since the ranged touch attack from a wand uses the wielder's attack bonus for delivering the spell, the wielder himself is delivering the spell from the wand. So a magus using a wand for a ranged touch spell fits the requirement for Close Range arcana. This arcana specifically states it can be used with spellstrike.
And the magus in my game has already learned the Close Range arcana. He wanted to use spellstrike with Ray of Frost.
Thus, the Rube Goldberg device grows more complicated.
1) The skald uses spell kenning temporarily know Acid Arrow, a magus spell with a ranged touch attack.
2) She crafts a wand of Acid Arrow.
3) She gives the wand to the magus.
4) During combat, the skald sings Inspired Rage and the magus accepts the ragesong for +1 to hit.
5) The magus activates the wand as a standard action while raging.
6) He uses Close Range arcana to deliver the acid arrow as a melee touch attack.
7) He uses spellstrike to deliver the melee touch attack through his rapier.
8) A successful hit will deliver 1d6+2 piercing damage and 2d4 acid damage.
I am amused.
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I know that many people agree with the activating wands does not work with spellstrike argument, but I disagree with that.
Under wands it says: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Note that you are still casting a spell, which to me seems to satisfy the requirements for spellstrike (as long as it is a magus spell). That said, it isn't clear that you can activate a wand if under the effects of raging song, and I would assume that if you counted wands as I do you certainly could not.
Magus, Spell Combat: What spells can I cast when using spell combat?
The relevant text of the ability is:
"As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty)."
The spell you cast when using spell combat has to be a magus spell you know, and it must be a magus spell prepared with one of your magus spell slots.
(Other magus abilities may modify what spells can be used with spell combat. For example, the broad study magus arcana explicitly states the magus can use spell combat to cast spells from the selected non-magus spellcasting class.)
"it must be a magus spell prepared with one of your magus spell slots" is pretty clear.
Spellstrike use exactly the same wording of spell combat.Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
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I know that many people agree with the activating wands does not work with spellstrike argument, but I disagree with that.
Under wands it says: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
I have been reading old Rules Forum threads about that. A good counterargument is that "casting a spell from a wand" means that the wand itself is casting the spell under the wielder's direction. Supporting evidence is that the wielder cannot apply metamagic to the wand's spell and the spell uses the wand's Caster Level.
Note that you are still casting a spell, which to me seems to satisfy the requirements for spellstrike (as long as it is a magus spell). That said, it isn't clear that you can activate a wand if under the effects of raging song, and I would assume that if you counted wands as I do you certainly could not.You noticed the same catch that I noticed. If activating a wand counts as casting a spell, then activating a wand while raging is not allowed.
However, in browsing the threads about wand-wielding magi, I found a loophole at Magus Aracana - Close range and wand wielder?.
Close Range (Ex): The magus can deliver ray spells that feature a ranged touch attack as melee touch spells. He can use a ranged touch attack spell that targets more than one creature (such as scorching ray), but he makes only one melee touch attack to deliver one of these ranged touch effects; additional ranged touch attacks from that spell are wasted and have no effect. These spells can be used with the spellstrike class feature.By the words as written, Close Range arcana does not require that the magus cast the ray spell himself. Since the ranged touch attack from a wand uses the wielder's attack bonus for delivering the...
While under the effects of inspired rage, allies other than the skald cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
"Concentration" isn't the concentration check for casting spells, it is concentration as a normal dictionary definition.
You, as the GM, will decide if using a wand is an action that require concentration.
While under the effects of inspired rage, allies other than the skald cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration."Concentration" isn't the concentration check for casting spells, it is concentration as a normal dictionary definition.
You, as the GM, will decide if using a wand is an action that require concentration.
By the dictionary definition, Acrobatics and Ride require concentration, yet they are allowed. Climbing is a matter of patience. Rage powers such as Guarded Stance, Moment of Clarity, Scent, and Surprise Accuracy sound like matters that occupy attention.
Instead, I rely on more blatant clues. Does the activity use the word, "concentration"? Does it require a concentration check under certain circumstances, such as during rough weather? Does the activity take longer than a round, so that it might require patience? Does it occupy so much attention that it provokes an attack of opportunity?
The answer for activating a wand (without resorting to Use Magic Device) is no. It has none of the earmarks of concentration.
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I know that many people agree with the activating wands does not work with spellstrike argument, but I disagree with that.
Under wands it says: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Note that you are still casting a spell, which to me seems to satisfy the requirements for spellstrike (as long as it is a magus spell). That said, it isn't clear that you can activate a wand if under the effects of raging song, and I would assume that if you counted wands as I do you certainly could not.
Magus, Spell Combat: What spells can I cast when using spell combat?
The relevant text of the ability is:
"As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty)."
The spell you cast when using spell combat has to be a magus spell you know, and it must be a magus spell prepared with one of your magus spell slots.
(Other magus abilities may modify what spells can be used with spell combat. For example, the broad study magus arcana explicitly states the magus can use spell combat to cast spells from the selected non-magus spellcasting class.)
"it must be a magus spell prepared with one of your magus spell slots" is pretty clear.
Spellstrike use exactly the same wording of spell combat.Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
The FAQ you quoted is dealing with Spell Combat. The Wand Wielder Arcana removes the requirement in Spell Combat that the spell be cast using a spell slot. It allows it to be cast from a wand. For Spell Combat. It does not specifically remove that exception for Spellstrike, which is why it's generally interpreted that even with the Wand Wielder Arcana, you still can't use it with Spellstrike.
I have a Wand Wielder Magus in PFS, I don't try to use Spellstrike with spells from a wand, because of the way the rules discussions have gone. It's safest to assume it doesn't work. The arcana is still useful for things like Truestrike or Blade Lash.
For the OP, there's a jump in effectiveness for a Magus at 5th level when they can start adding a special ability to their weapon (usually Keen). Rather than jumping through hoops, they'd be better off crafting a Belt of Strength and with the Magus just taking the raging song on rounds when he isn't going to cast. Keep in mind with Shocking Grasp, if the target is wearing metal armor or holding a metal weapon, there's a +3 to hit. The difference between a 14 str and an 18 str for a magus is just +2 hit/ +2 dmg. It's much less pronounced than for someone two-handing an attack. There are plenty of ways to overcome that loss.
Why not just use furious spell; I mean its not a perfect solution, but it would allow casting during rage.
Why not just use furious spell; I mean its not a perfect solution, but it would allow casting during rage.
Because I did not know about it. I have been reading through the Advanced Class Guide, Technology Guide, and the Iron Gods adventure path and decided to leave reading Occult Adventures for later. I had not expected it to contain anything related to rage.
I will tell the magus's player about Furious Spell.
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While under the effects of inspired rage, allies other than the skald cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration."Concentration" isn't the concentration check for casting spells, it is concentration as a normal dictionary definition.
You, as the GM, will decide if using a wand is an action that require concentration.
By the dictionary definition, Acrobatics and Ride require concentration, yet they are allowed. Climbing is a matter of patience. Rage powers such as Guarded Stance, Moment of Clarity, Scent, and Surprise Accuracy sound like matters that occupy attention.
Instead, I rely on more blatant clues. Does the activity use the word, "concentration"? Does it require a concentration check under certain circumstances, such as during rough weather? Does the activity take longer than a round, so that it might require patience? Does it occupy so much attention that it provokes an attack of opportunity?
The answer for activating a wand (without resorting to Use Magic Device) is no. It has none of the earmarks of concentration.
Ah, duration, yes:
Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.)
A spell cast with spell kenning always has a minimum casting time of 1 full round, regardless of the casting time of the spell.
The spell you put into a wand when you make it is exactly the spell you have memorized or that you know, the spell you get with spell kenning has a casting time of 1 full round, so the wand has a casting time of 1 full round.
I would call that more evidence that you can't make a wand with Spell Kenning. Even if you allow it, the spell now has a casting time of 1 full round, so it is unsuitable for spell combat.
Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.)A spell cast with spell kenning always has a minimum casting time of 1 full round, regardless of the casting time of the spell.The spell you put into a wand when you make it is exactly the spell you have memorized or that you know, the spell you get with spell kenning has a casting time of 1 full round, so the wand has a casting time of 1 full round.
I would call that more evidence...
One round, i.e., six seconds, is not my threshold for an action requiring patience. Most intimidations take longer than that.
Nevertheless, thank you for pointing out another limitation of spell kenning. The skald's player and I miight have overlooked that one. I agree that a wand made with spell kenning would take a one round or more to activate.
But that does not stop the skald's plan. Instead, the Rube Goldberg device gains more steps:
1) The skald uses spell kenning to temporarily know Acid Arrow, a magus spell with a ranged touch attack, but with a one-round casting time.
2) She scribes a scroll of one-round Acid Arrow using the Scribe Scroll feat given to skalds at 1st level.
3) The magus studies the scroll and makes a Spellcraft check to learn Acid Arrow. He can cast it as a standard action.
4) The magus and the skald work together to craft a wand of Acid Arrow for the magus.
5) During combat, the skald sings Inspired Rage and the magus accepts the ragesong for +1 to hit.
6) The magus activates the wand as a standard action while raging.
7) He uses Close Range arcana to deliver the acid arrow as a melee touch attack.
8) He uses spellstrike to deliver the melee touch attack through his rapier.
9) A successful hit will deliver 1d6+2 piercing damag and 2d4 acid damage.
As a side point, does anyone know why skalds receive Scribe Scroll at 1st level? A skald is a hybrid of barbarian and bard, but neither of those recieve Scribe Scroll at 1st level.
Diego Rossi, I know that the intent of Close Range is not to enable using spells from wands in spellstike. The sentence, "These spells can be used with the spellstrike class feature," should have been written more restrictive. However, the developers who wrote that restriction had added a clause in the Magus Arcana ability that they thought covered that already.
Magus Arcana: As he gains levels, a magus learns arcane secrets tailored to his specific way of blending martial puissance and magical skill. Starting at 3rd level, a magus gains one magus arcana. He gains an additional magus arcana for every three levels of magus attained after 3rd level. Unless specifically noted in a magus arcana's description, a magus cannot select a particular magus arcana more than once. Magus arcana that affect spells can only be used to modify spells from the magus spell list unless otherwise noted.
I am less sure that the developers did not want wands to combine with spellstrike. It seems harmless. The only reason that a magus with a wand would be more effective than a wizard with a wand is that a magus is more likely to be in a position where he wants to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity.
But the final vote is the campaign. My campaign, Iron Gods among Scientists, has had a strong emphasis on engineering and research. Figuring out how to make spell kenning work with wands and wands work with spellstrike will make a nice research project for the characters.