Power Attack and Non-Lethal Damage


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

I've included the descriptions from the SRD of both the Power Attack feat and the nonlethal damage section of Combat.

I've seen other players using saps (in particular rogue sap masters) and fighters with merciful weapons doing power attack and non-lethal together. However, reading Power Attack to remind myself of the differences between PF and 3.5, it says the bonus damage does not apply to effects that do not hit point damage. And non-lethal damage says it is tracked separately from hit point which implies it is not hit point damage.

Doesn't that mean that you don't get the bonus damage of power attack when you deal nonlethal damage?

I was looking at playing a sap master myself in PFS, but I don't want to be a cheater by using Power Attack if it does not work together.

Thanks,

Eric

Power Attack (Combat)
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Nonlethal Damage
Nonlethal damage represents harm to a character that is not life-threatening. Unlike normal damage, nonlethal damage is healed quickly with rest.

Dealing Nonlethal Damage
Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage
You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage
You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll


I would expect most GMs to allow it. They may not technically be hit points but non-lethal damage is close enough. I think they're mostly trying to avoid trying to use power attack to add to stat damage, which would be problematic becuase they're on non-compatible scales. Non-lethal damage, however, is on the exact same scale as hit points so there really should be no problem.


That's a good question.

I think that by the strictest RAW reading, non-lethal damage is NOT dealing hit point damage. As you say, it's tracked separately from your actual HP damage and not deducted from current HP like actual HP damage would be. Therefore, no, Power Attack should not apply. By RAW.

But I don't think for even a minute that this is the RAI the devs were going for.

For one thing, you actually ARE comparing non-lethal damage to the target's HP, so it behaves exactly like HP damage (with regard to determining how much damage the target can take).

For another thing, it's very logical that Power Attack is just hitting somebody extra hard - it doesn't logically matter whether you're hitting them extra hard with a greatsword or a greatpillow, you should be able to hit them extra hard. And the mechanics support this even if the wording seems to deny it.

Finally, I'm pretty sure the RAI was to disallow using Power Attack with things damage or drain ability scores or levels. You don't want shadows damaging 2x STR with Power Attack and you don't want vampires draining 2x Levels with Power Attack. I think this was the kind of stuff they wanted to prevent when they said it doesn't work with non-HP damage.

TL;dr: a lawyer could probably win the case that Power Attack should not be applicable to non-lethal damage, but that's probably not the intended interpretation.

Scarab Sages

Personally, I think pathfinder has too many hindrances for non-lethal adventurers. The Merciful Spell metamagic feat is also rather unreasonably worded for adventuring without excessive killing.

But, yes, I agree with your understanding of power attack. If I were the GM, I'd probably allow the non-lethal with power attack unless some PC found a truly broken way to use non-lethal damage.

Though as GM, you can always throw a curve ball on any party that is too reliant on non-lethal damage via Zon Kuthon's Flagellant feat: http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Flagellant Basiclly makes character immune to non-lethal damage (not immune, but can't be rendered helpless).

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