Sacredless
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Monk/Maneuver Master + Cavalier of the Penitent
This build is focusing on the action economy around the "Tie Up" actions and any implications it has for combat, without becoming a glass canon. I will try to explain as best I can my choices and then ask for help concerning the rest. Afterwards, I would like to hear what others think.
Foreword
Tying people up can be a gamebreaker. You find the final monster in the campaign. You sneak up on it, make three grapple attempts and you've tied it up. Coupe de Grace and bob's your uncle. This is a build that you have to check with your GM so he can build the adventure on the presumption that you are looking to make one-hit K.O.s where you can. Otherwise, you have to ask yourself, "Do you want to play Dungeons and Dragons or don't you?"
Why Cavalier?
There are two major reasons to take the Cavalier class; first is the Penitent ability "Expert Captor" which allows him to tie up opponents whom aren't pinned without the -10 penalty. Since the characters will be tied up and helpless, the Stunning Pin feature of the Tetori monk becomes useless against them.
The second reason the Cavalier class works is because you will have an animal companion. Animal companions are often pegged wrong; they aren't tanks, they offer support. In this case, any kidnap victim needs to be defended. If an enemy gets to his buddy, they can cut him loose and that is not what you want. At the start of combat, order your animal to defend a strategic location with "Guard". Once your enemy is bound, use the "Reposition" combat maneuver to toss him over to your animal companion's location(your opponent's CMD is probably effectively 0, if your DM agrees with you, so you can probably move him three squares on average), who then remains vigilant for any attempts to break free.
There are other reasons to take cavalier of course; you have a mount that can carry around prisoners, if you have one that's got good AC, you can use it as a way to gain mobile total cover (my kidnapper has an ankylosaur, par example). You gain martial weapon proficiencies and since we don't have flurry of blows, you can use weapons that monks normally eschew. Invest in a bill, which has reach and disarm. If you fumble the disarm chest, you are a monk, you can manage without. If you succeed, you have disarmed your opponent and forced combat on your own terms. And given that you have flurry of maneuvers, you can use that bill both offensively and defensively in the same turn(Flurry of Maneuvers doesn't require the use of monk weapons).
Tie-Ups Breakdown
This is the core reason why you want to build a kidnapper; you want to end an encounter and you want to end it fast. The moment that you tie an opponent up, he's helpless. Hi-fives all around. There is a reason why people typically do not use this tactic however.
First, you need to grapple someone. Then, in their turn, they'd get to try to break free. Then you'd have to grapple that person again to pin them. They'd get to try to break free a second time. Finally, you get to tie them up. That means that you have to succeed five consecutive grapple checks, spanning three rounds, surrounded by enemies. Usually, they will get away and what's worse, they'll not be hurt. So it's a gamble. You can try to eschew pinning your opponent, but that takes a -10 penalty.
Not for us, though. We can tie someone up without pinning them, so that slashes one round of combat already. Then, we have maneuver master, which allows us to make multiple grapples in one turn. Therefore, we don't have to grapple against the opponent in their turn; in a single flurry, we can tie someone up and at later levels still be able to make another attack and/or maneuver.
No matter the amount of HP the opponent has, if we can grapple them, we can beat them in one round. That makes us more effective than most hammers. Add that we don't /have/ to grapple; with our bill, we can also attack and disarm to make full use of our flurry of blows.
Miscellaneous Notes
The focus of the build is, of course, Combat Maneuvers; specifically Grapple. You could invest in Agile Maneuvers, but you want to do things other than grapple. You could argue that you need it to get higher AC without penalty. However, I advise that you use Body Shield for this, which provides you cover as long as you are grappling someone (including bound enemies). Instead, have a stock of thrown weapons ready so you can do ranged combat in a pinch; you need that versatility.
You could try to get proficiency with harpoons, since they come with rope and can drag the target back. That style of play is more suited for a dedicated cavalier, though; instead, buy pilums and/or sibats. Pilums can ruin the day of a shieldbearer and sibats can grapple opponents on a crit. You're not trying to kill people, you're trying to kidnap them. Your mount can carry your throwing weapons for you, so no worries about being encumbered(thus retaining your wisdom bonus).
If you use a mount that you cannot ride yet, consider hiring a halfling or gnomish mercenary. Perhaps the Order of the Penitent is kind enough to provide you with a squire. The halfling can use your mount to perform deadly charges.
Tactician feat
You'd think you should take the Coordinated Maneuver feat, but it's a trap. Your mount is likely not going to be adjacent to you during any of this; it'll be in the background defending the prisoners. Instead, you may consider taking Combat Medic, since you typically want your prisoners to survive and your mount might be in dire straits quickly.
Monk bonus feats
Improved Grapple is a given, followed by Improved Reposition (moving helpless targets), Dodge(more AC), Greater Grapple.
Character Progression feats
Boon Companion to make full use of Cavalier. Body Shield to use an opponent as cover (make sure to heal them afterwards or lose your order abilities for 24h). Rapid Grappler to get as many combat maneuvers out of your turn as possible.
Animal companion feats
You will be using your mount as cover more often than not, so invest in making your animal the tank you are not. Make it a Bodyguard, because that's what you'll use it for. Get Medium Armor Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency and Toughness.
Gear
The usual; Monk's Robe, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, Amulet of Natural Armor and Ring of Protection. Don't take the Amulet of Mighty Fists; you no longer have the Flurry of Blows, after all. You may want to get the Dire Collar.
Attributes:
Str>Wis>Con>Dex>Int>Cha. Aim for with STR 18 DEX 13 CON 13 INT 8 WIS 14 CHA 7 and build from there. The best way to think about this is, you are a monk with levels in cavalier, not a cavalier with levels in monk.
Skills
Acrobatics are the most important, since you'll be wading into combat practically naked. You don't need perception as much; your animal companion's a Bodyguard. Ride is more important than Handle Animal, because you often use the Cover action of the Ride skill to avoid damage. Your GM may try some combat maneuvers himself, since you forced him to study, so get Sense Motive to detect feints. Climb can also be important, though typically, you want to stay close to your mount. Since you are Penitent, get Heal to make sure anyone you capture doesn't die.
Levels
You need at least two levels in Cavalier to make this work. Then, take four levels in Monk if you want to take the Boon Companion feat. Take one more level if you have a mount that grow to Large size at 7th level, then focus completely on monk again. If you have a Horse or Camel and you want it to stay that way, you can do without a third level in Cavalier.
You could theoretically use Ranger or Druid levels instead, but you need that ability to tie up without pinning. If only Skirmisher would allow that; otherwise it would have been the perfect fit for this build in all respects. Strange how the ranger class has no archetypes that reward using ties and knots if they are the stereotypical use rope class from 3.5.
If you want to go down the cowboy route fully, you can take Dunewalker. In Japan, during the sengoku jidai, monks used firearms to fight off samurai, so there's some flavor for you. However, this build is made in the assumption that your DM prefers a setting without guns.
Alignment
The kidnapper is lawful, the Monk class demands it. However, unlike paladins, you don't need to be good. Yes, you eschew killing people, but a Chelish kidnapper might be a slaver, so you can still be evil. You just adhere to a set of standards. Many tactics of a kidnapper may not be Good, though. Using your enemies and animal companion as cover is usually considered to be highly dishonorable, but you are not an honorable knight, you are a knight that gets the job done. You could call yourself a Han Solo, even. And like Han Solo, you actually pair up well with Good alignments, since you kill less than they do. Even if you're Chelish and lawful evil, you can't kill because of your edicts. You'll buddy up as well with a paladin on horseback as a chaotic neutral Mounted Fury, as long as you honor your edicts.
Conclusions
So, overall, the build seems viable to me. Despite Maneuver Master being MAD, the loss of Flurry of Blows frees up synergy with the Cavalier. However, I've never actually run a character all the way to level 20; I just don't have the time for it. Any opinions on the viability of this build/guide?
Sacredless
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you missed the best part.
the "Expert Captor" allow to tie a grappled foe.
not YOUR grappled foe.
let the animal tiger of yours move in, attack and grab. than you move in, and tie up = 1 round win.
Yeah, that's true, but commanding your companion removes the ability to use a fullround action. AFAIK, ordering companions around takes a standard action, meaning that you break up the rythm of combat to say a command here or blow a whistle there. It's how we treat at our table; specific commands like grab or retrieve require standard actions to command. Hence why my advice is to assign a guarding location and retrieving things for the mount to guard.
In my case, it's an ankylosaurus with heavy armor. I can use him for cover and basically not worry about her getting hit by anything, because she's got 26 AC by level 7. And if she does, I have Combat Healer to heal her in the midst of battle without provoking attacks of opportunity.
Sacredless
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I have tried to make an alternative build that I call 'Rope Magician' which uses Equipment Trick to get a Expert Captor lite edition. However, without an animal companion to defend your kidnap victims, the moment you fail a grapple check and can no longer make attacks of opportunity to guard them from anyone who would cut them free, a smart GM will have NPCs cut the ties of their friends and you are back at square zero. The rest of the party may be accomodating to you in this respect, but for things like PFS, you typically do not have that reliability. The bonus would have been that you do not require the code of conduct from the Order of the Penitent.
A kidnapper had an entirely different approach to fighting than any other class in the game. Most games are built around the assumption that you are trying to kill creeps and claim loot.
If you are a GM who deals with a kidnapper; Think of him or her as a pickpocketing rogue that steals people. The people are the loot. When a kidnapper enters a dungeon, he expects to come out with prisoners as opposed to treasure. Sure, you can help him deck out his animal companion and he'll have use for certain magical items, but compared to the rest of the party, his pride will lie in imprisoning people. So don't think that the kidnapper isn't playing dungeons and dragons; just think "loot is people".
The kidnapper needs, of course, a convincing reason why he kidnaps people; for slavery? For law and order? Perhaps he tracks down runaway children or works for an insane asylum who's violent patients have escaped. Remember that you are lawful, so you need to make sure if taking people against their will is sanctioned in some way. Make sure that you have a warrant or contract.
Sacredless
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A note; beyond a certain level, your animal companion will not be as powerful anymore. This is my advice;
This is the track you will go through the first three levels;
1 Monk; Nature Soul
2 Cavalier
3 Cavalier; Boon Companion
4 Monk
5 Monk
6 Monk
Now, this is where it gets funky. After you reach sixth' level, you try to qualify for the feat "Animal Ally". For this to work, clear the method below with your GM.
This is the completely legal way; First, you retrain your two levels of Cavalier to Monk so that you're a full monk. This will make you lose Boon Companion, since you're no longer eligible for Boon Companion; replace it with Animal Ally. But Sacredless, you say, you can't take Animal Ally as a level 3 monk. Ah, but according to the retraining rules, as long as you are elligible for the feat at the moment of retraining, you can!
This will have taken 2 weeks. Then, retroactively, you retrain back to having two levels of Cavalier; 2 more weeks. Now, like before, you are a Monk 3/Cavalier 2 with an effective druid level of 5 in regards to your animal companion.
The difference is that from this point on, your character levels will count as though they had an effective druid level -3 for animal companions. So the sum becomes; monk + cavalier levels -3 + cavalier levels. At level twenty, this'll be 18 + 2 -3 + 2. Animal Ally specifically states that it stacks with cavalier levels. If your DM thinks that your cavalier levels don't count double, you'd still have an effective druid level of CL -1, possibly supplemented with a third cavalier level to make it CL.
Your new build will look as if you had leveled as follows;
1 Monk; Nature Soul
2 Monk
3 Monk; Animal Ally
4 Monk;
5 Cavalier
6 Cavalier
You might grumble at having to waste a feat on Nature Soul, but compare that to what you might have been saddled up with (*punpun*): an animal companion that stays at an effective druid level of 6 forever and cannot learn the 5 other feats he'd have gotten if you hadn't been such a cheapskate.
Now, if you discuss with your GM, you can reason that you are really just retraining a feat, as though you had been elligible for it at 4th level. Given that the Boon Companion and Animal Ally are almost identical, most GMs will probably be able to agree with you that it takes only 5 days to retrain this. Not just because it's fair, but because your character won't be gone for a month. Or double it to simulate a stand-in level 3 feat having been retrained at level 4 for animal ally. GMs want to keep their game going.
If they don't, 4 weeks of game time might mean that you have to temporarily retire your kidnapper as he goes through intensive training to prepare the animal companion for even more powerful targets and roll up a different character while the rest of the party moves on.
| Mark_Twain007 |
The problem I see, beside the boatload of time you need if you wanted to do the retraining, is that You are going to be front and center in melee with what looks like 18 AC, and not that much health.
Against 1 person, yes you are king, if you start your turn within 5 feet of them, grapple, bind, done, if you have to move though, you only get to grapple. Everyone else in combat can attack you, though body shield helps, and the person you have grappled, can full attack you, if they have a 1 handed weapon.
Also what is your game plan if you try and grapple and you find out it's CMD is too high for you? What is your backup battle plan?
This can be solved by making sure your party has a caster in it, there is a wizard spell I can't remember the name of that lets you move allies around, which would get you into full attack range, and you will need a way to fly eventually.
Also, are you taking the beast rider archtype to get a special mount or are you assuming your GM will let you have something that isn't a horse or a camel. The Horselord feat in Ultimate combat fixes your mount problem, if you aren't replacing expert trainer.
Also i'm pretty sure because you are treated as a druid, unless you have to push your companion, handling them is a free action, which means getting something with grab is worth it.
Finally some late game advice, the Mounted skirmisher feat is a great late game feat for you, because it lets you move in on your mount, do a quick dismount, and full round grapple someone down.
Basically what I'm saying is what I would do, is instead of a monk with a cavalier dip, I would go cavalier with a monk dip.
| Mark_Twain007 |
Honestly, I would only take 1, then either be the emissary cavalier, who swaps tactician and banner for a bunch of bonus feats, freeing up your regular feats, or go beast rider, and get a big cat, or a tyrannosaurus, because they have grab.
My tactic would be start combat mounted, and use my mounts higher movement speed to get into good position, then I just need to worry about getting them within 20-30 feet of me. My turn would be ride check to free action dismount, free action handle animal to order mount to attack, mount attacks, and uses grab, move action move forward, standard action bind. Your house rule of commanding animal companion being a standard puts that plan down however.
Unfortunately my plan has a bigger problem with flying creatures then yours does, because you only need to make yourself fly, I would want me, and my mount flying.
Sacredless
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My GM is not allowing flying, so that's a moot point anyway. :P Honestly, if I order my animal companion to "Guard", I usually don't need to direct him. At that point, as long as it falls under the directive "Guard", my saurian sister'll be allowed to attack on her own. It's when her directive changes that I have to take a standard action to grab her attention and then command her. I honestly like it better that way, it makes her being a trained animal under my command feel more part of the character. IRL, I've written horses for a few years and I know that it's not as instinctual as they might portray in the movies, so I'll gladly sacrifice one action each battle for flavour's sake.
For the optimal kidnapper build, definitely just 1 level in Maneuver Master. Possibly, I could see someone leveling it to 8 to get one more maneuver out of it, but with the penalties that incurs, dunno if it's worth it.
Myself, I'll be going down the Beast Rider Route, but Emissary works great, probably better. For flavour's sake; I personally wouldn't advise carnivorous mounts, since they have the instincts to kill and eat the people you are trying to kidnap. It wouldn't make much sense to me for the Order of the Penitent to give contracts to the guy on a massive tyrannosaurus rex. I stick to herbivores. For an optimal build, it's better to take a horse or camel, since they are much faster than most the provided mounts. If you have to, you can slap a horse's rear and spirit away your kidnap victims while you take out the rest on your own(like when there's less than six people left). Emissary fits the kidnapper role excellently.