Goblin Squad Member
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Ha! Thanks ;) I'm not sure what you are saying about my heritage there...There was actually a 'raider' flag early on in development of this feature. In fact, raiding was something that you 'declared' at one point. When we rejigged the management of outposts, however, it not longer matched up as neatly.
This blog post has made raiding a hot-button topic among the design team again, particularly with all of this input we are getting. The basic position at the moment is that raiding is mean and powerful and that is exactly how I intended it. What we are discussing is whether its TOO powerful, since there seems to be a lot of feeling on the boards that it might be. I am very much on the 'you have what you hold' side of the River Freedoms but there are more sympathetic whisperings in the office that might well have legs!
This discussion is very helpful!
Well, while you are on that side of River Freedoms, remember that this is a game and that if you make it too hard to hold anything, nothing will get built. Usually the ones you are on the side of don't build anything, they just take. Make it too hard to hold and builders won't build.
I don't envy your task to balance that.
Oh, and I certainly hope that if you are going to allow raiders to strip mine, then the owners of an outpost should have the same option to strip mine their own outpost.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Ha! Thanks ;) I'm not sure what you are saying about my heritage there...There was actually a 'raider' flag early on in development of this feature. In fact, raiding was something that you 'declared' at one point. When we rejigged the management of outposts, however, it not longer matched up as neatly.
This blog post has made raiding a hot-button topic among the design team again, particularly with all of this input we are getting. The basic position at the moment is that raiding is mean and powerful and that is exactly how I intended it. What we are discussing is whether its TOO powerful, since there seems to be a lot of feeling on the boards that it might be. I am very much on the 'you have what you hold' side of the River Freedoms but there are more sympathetic whisperings in the office that might well have legs!
This discussion is very helpful!
Well, while you are on that side of River Freedoms, remember that this is a game and that if you make it too hard to hold anything, nothing will get built. Usually the ones you are on the side of don't build anything, they just take. Make it too hard to hold and builders won't build.
I don't envy your task to balance that.
Oh, and I certainly hope that if you are going to allow raiders to strip mine, then the owners of an outpost should have the same option to strip mine their own outpost.
I'm worried about getting too embroiled in the mathematics since I dont have figures concrete enough for you yet and its hard to make this land without - but as a rule - if something is easy do destroy it is proportionally easy to build. Outposts are both easy to build and easy to lose. They are 'semi-permanent structures'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm worried about getting too embroiled in the mathematics since I dont have figures concrete enough for you yet and its hard to make this land without - but as a rule - if something is easy do destroy it is proportionally easy to build. Outposts are both easy to build and easy to lose. They are 'semi-permanent structures'.
Ha! Thanks ;) I'm not sure what you are saying about my heritage there...There was actually a 'raider' flag early on in development of this feature. In fact, raiding was something that you 'declared' at one point. When we rejigged the management of outposts, however, it not longer matched up as neatly.
This blog post has made raiding a hot-button topic among the design team again, particularly with all of this input we are getting. The basic position at the moment is that raiding is mean and powerful and that is exactly how I intended it. What we are discussing is whether its TOO powerful, since there seems to be a lot of feeling on the boards that it might be. I am very much on the 'you have what you hold' side of the River Freedoms but there are more sympathetic whisperings in the office that might well have legs!
This discussion is very helpful!
Well, while you are on that side of River Freedoms, remember that this is a game and that if you make it too hard to hold anything, nothing will get built. Usually the ones you are on the side of don't build anything, they just take. Make it too hard to hold and builders won't build.
I don't envy your task to balance that.
Oh, and I certainly hope that if you are going to allow raiders to strip mine, then the owners of an outpost should have the same option to strip mine their own outpost.
Ahh, okay. Knowing that does change my view of the raid picture painted so far to a more favorable one. If I had to invest a lot only to hope not to be raided I would balk at investing any. If that investment is minimal with a potential for a good return but also a good chance to be raided, then I would take the chance.
I like a few others, were thinking that outposts would be a considerable cost to erect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really don't want to spend game time in open-ended guard patrols where usually nothing even happens, that's too much like a job.
Caravanning materials from an outpost to a settlement 2-3 times a day -day after day after day- split among a few people who happen to be online at the time to prevent that stockpile from getting raided also sounds like a job.
As has been said we don't know the balance of all these factors but I hope the devs who can play out outpost maintaining and raiding take these factors into account; that most players (I believe) won't want one section of how we spend our time in the sandbox game to start feeling less optional because it's so vital to settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really don't want to spend game time in open-ended guard patrols where usually nothing even happens, that's too much like a job.
Caravanning materials from an outpost to a settlement 2-3 times a day -day after day after day- split among a few people who happen to be online at the time to prevent that stockpile from getting raided also sounds like a job.
As has been said we don't know the balance of all these factors but I hope the devs who can play out outpost maintaining and raiding take these factors into account; that most players (I believe) won't want one section of how we spend our time in the sandbox game to start feeling less optional because it's so vital to settlements.
Welcome to a sandbox game lol... It can be a second job. The people who dedicate themselves to settlements will be happy to do all of this. Some will be happy for a time then want to pass it on, others will be happy so long as they see some profit.
Again, it is part of playing a sandbox game with real territory control that everyone will need to come to terms with. You may not want to do it, but it will need to be done.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really don't want to spend game time in open-ended guard patrols where usually nothing even happens, that's too much like a job.
Caravanning materials from an outpost to a settlement 2-3 times a day -day after day after day- split among a few people who happen to be online at the time to prevent that stockpile from getting raided also sounds like a job.
As has been said we don't know the balance of all these factors but I hope the devs who can play out outpost maintaining and raiding take these factors into account; that most players (I believe) won't want one section of how we spend our time in the sandbox game to start feeling less optional because it's so vital to settlements.
Welcome to a sandbox game lol... It can be a second job. The people who dedicate themselves to settlements will be happy to do all of this. Some will be happy for a time then want to pass it on, others will be happy so long as they see some profit.
Again, it is part of playing a sandbox game with real territory control that everyone will need to come to terms with. You may not want to do it, but it will need to be done.
Well said, thanks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just wanted to add a note that the faces are just static placeholders at the moment (one male one female), and we will be doing a ton of work on that...
Thanks for the feedback and compliments. The art team always loves to hear both!
I love how the armor is coming along. I feel like I'll want to wear leather all the time regardless of Pathfinder systems just because it will look that good by the time you're done with it.
While I'm flattering you, can we get a long hairstyle that has beads, bones, shiny miniature daggers, and other small trophies and baubles tied into strands of the hair? For both male and female no genderizing here. It's an art issue close to my barbarian heart.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Indeed. Like Ryan Dancey said in one thread, the true base currency, the only thing with real value, is player time. Just as someone in the system has to have the monotonous job of banging tools on gathering nodes, so too does someone have to have the monotonous job of standing around and making sure you keep what you have, in whatever form this job takes. In this way the objects being guarded are given gold value.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just some random thoughts about 'Raiding'.
If it is a 'Criminal' action in a Player-Controlled Hex, shouldn't it flag the 'Raiders' with the Criminal Flag FOR SO LONG AS THEY ARE HOLDING THE STOLEN GOODS, allowing everyone to attack them? That would certainly add a hell of a lot of risk to Raiding.
On the other hand, if a Settlement considers Raiding Outposts to be illegal, then it's a tactic they can't use in turn without going against their own laws and ramping up the 'Corruption' Development Index, as the Blog states. But at the same point, it might be the only way for a Settlement-Outpost to function at the beginning.
Raiding the Farm:
Let's be brutally honest. Only idiots will burn down the 'Farm'. Most Raiders/PvPers aren't going to be good crafters or gatherers. Every single choice and ability they have will be dedicated to blowing things up/stabbing things in the face/healing things while melting faces. They may have a few 'gather-focused' players to gather materials/resources while in-control of an Outpost, but most of them will be Combat-Focused Purists.
And I think they're gonna fall into two categories.
The 'Foxes' Raiders. These types are going to run in, take as much as they can, stay as long as they can and try to destroy the Outpost just for the 'Lulz'. "We took you thing, we broke it then we crapped on it! LOL NOOB QQ ROFLMAOBBQQUEENBEE and all that jazz.
The "Fox" Raiders are gonna be the morons. They 'Take and Break' and bring nothing else to the Raiding scene.
Why do I call them morons? Because sooner or later their antics will either cause a reactionary swing to the defence of Outposts from Goblinworks, which is going to make it harder and less profitable for anyone to Raid. And when they can no longer 'dominate' and ruin an Outpost, it's going to be "QQ the Game is too hard!" or "Stop defending the Noobs, they deserve it!" and the all important "OMG stop helping the filthy casuals!"
The next 'group' I see evolving is the "Farmer" Raiders.
These guys know that if an Outpost becomes a site of permanent drain of resources and 'un-fun', the Builders and Defenders will just down sticks and go home, and then nobody has fun.
They'll go in for an hour or two, take the resources, then leave before the damage to the Outpost becomes too severe.
They're not there to destroy the Outpost. They need the Outpost as much as the Builders/Defenders. These guys will have dedicated Fighters, dedicated Gatherers, and maybe even dedicated Movers to get the resources away asap.
"Farmer" Raiders aren't there to stampede the villagers and [redacted] the livestock. These players understand that their Raiding is best spread out over multiple targets, and a target is never hit more than once every few weeks, enough to keep the Outpost profitable for the Defenders and fun for the Builders.
Of course, if an Outpost is being too productive and the Settlement it's feeding is looking like it's going to be expanding towards the Raider's own Settlement/Outpost ... well, that's a different story.
But how to defend an Outpost when the bulk of Players may not be there?
Perhaps as an optional drain on the 'Parent' Settlement, the 'Child' Outpost could be outfitted with NPC Guards that, while not able to stop a dedicated Raiding Crew, can slow them down and send out NPC Messengers to the Settlement, which gives the Raiders perhaps 20 minutes of peace while the Messenger gets to the town to start gathering and set up their own defenses, while the Defenders not only send out more NPC Guards (Again, at cost to themselves) but can also send out angry Players, which may take another 25-35 minutes to arrive as people rush around, get their PvP gear together, organise defensive groups and saddle up.
Under this scenario, it's the final minutes of the 'hour' cycle of the Raid/Gather situation where things really heat up. The raiders may have had to deal with a sporadic attacks of lone defenders sniping at them, but now they've got a pissed off warband charging at their asses, and they've got a pile of resources slowing them down.
The other thing that springs to mind is that 'Gathering' in the wild often causes random events like monsters to pop up, if I recall.
Why not, if the Raid is occurring at a 'quiet time' for the majority of the server, to up the % of hostile NPCs spawning.
Raiders decide that a 3am Raid is their best bet, but whoops, turns out that in doing so they've also given the game a better than 60% chance of spawning a large and greedy Warband of Gnolls who've decided that they're going to show the 'stupid pinkies' how it's done. Now the Raiders not only have to deal with annoyingly tough-to-kill NPC Guards that are also alerting the few Defender Players still awake, but they've got fast moving and brutal Gnolls chewing on their backsides at the same time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let's be brutally honest. Only idiots will burn down the 'Farm'. Most Raiders/PvPers aren't going to be good crafters or gatherers. Every single choice and ability they have will be dedicated to blowing things up/stabbing things in the face/healing things while melting faces. They may have a few 'gather-focused' players to gather materials/resources while in-control of an Outpost, but most of them will be Combat-Focused Purists.
The blog never said you need extraction skill to strip mine. The invisible peasants are doing the actual work, the invaders just crack the whip (from my read). Like Tork said the biggest challenge is caravanning the heavy bulky stripped resources away.
If you took a poll of likely EE players, most of whom have destiny's twin, about 40% of characters are going to be gather/craft/economic focused. In a year or two, combat characters will pick up a narrow but high level extraction or craft ability of their favorite flavor. With the narrowed combat gap a relatively small amount of combat training will make two crafters dangerous to even an advanced lone fighter. If someone forms a party to do any form of economic burglary or sabotage there can easily be industrialists for it.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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It seems to me there are three main issues being discussed here:
1) The fact that these outposts are very vulnerable, all the time.
- This issue is deliberate. There are a couple of ways we are currently discussing to reduce the number of hours outposts are vulnerable but it would be at a SIGNIFICANT penalty to production. Basically, outposts are inherently both a necessity and liability to their owner settlements. They are not 'holdings' in the PoI sense and players are not going to get attached to them like a favourite pet or a cottage in the country. In a stable area you might hold onto an outpost for weeks or months, but out on the frontier they are as risky as they are vital, so keep your eyes peeled for trouble.
In short - yes, they are vulnerable, and while we might dial it down a little it is important that they do not get locked down by your PvP window like PoIs and Settlements. The upside of this is that they are cheap to build - so you can afford to hire some mercenaries to help you defend them.
2) The power of Stripmining.
- This I am more concerned about. Stripmining is meant to provide a way to inflict harm on a settlement, not as a way to gather goods rapidly. The fact that it also includes this feature is a slight hangover from the desire for raiding to provide a material benefit and from the very concept of real-world 'raiding'. Raiders dont care about the long term goals of the village they are sacking - they will slaughter its stud cattle, consume its seed crops, or steal its winter supplies. They want everything they can get as fast as they can. Its not about them being 'faster at chopping wood' than the inhabitants - its about them chopping down seedlings and stealing unfinished planks. They get more faster because they are not trying to run an ongoing operation.
All that said it may be too much to get all this benefit AND get to hamper cultivation at that outpost. I'm looking at this more closely and I'm avidly reading the various analyses you guys have made of this issue :)
3) The concept of 'work'.
- As Ryan, Xeen, Shane, and KitnNyx all point out the economy in a sandbox is based on time. It is very possible that there a lot of you who will not engage in any of the shipping/guarding/etc activities that are written into PFO's economy, and thats fine too. If you dont want to do it you dont have to do it! The company system is such that if you really only want to slay dragons and bash other players over the head that is totally fine, but you will need to spend some of your loot on hiring other players to do the 'boring' stuff for you. For them that stuff aint boring - and your coin only sweetens the deal.
Its come up in this thread in particular in the notion of 'guarding'. Guarding might not be your cup of tea, but it doesnt mean standing around doing sod all. You could be one or more hexes away slapping some goblins around and still be available to defend an outpost (or PoI) from attack. You could be working on some of the interface based elements of the game (building/company/skills management) and then jump into action when someone comes a'knocking. Or maybe you are just patrolling - scouring the hexes with your pickaxe out, bashing nodes when you see them and keeping one eye on your company chat log.
However guarding looks to the individual this is a sandbox game and there are no 'safe hours' (thats not quite true because of PvP windows but you get my drift.) Even if you were online when your node was attacked there is no guarentee that you are ready to respond. Perhaps you are elbow deep in dragon guts (ok that sounds wrong. Apologies) or trying out new skills you just bought, or exploring some far-off hex. We dont want people to be forced into guard duty all the time because then they are never ready to do anything else, and thats why we have the mercenary/guard/caravan companies to make sure you can go off and get yourself some nice new essences from those ghosts over there.
I feel like I'm in danger of rambling, but I guess what I'm saying is that point 1 and point 2 feed into each other. The world needs some danger, but it also needs a way to combat that danger, and in a sandbox game that is other players. Similarly, players who want total freedom provide content for players who want to work. Its a loop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The power of Stripmining.
- This I am more concerned about. Stripmining is meant to provide a way to inflict harm on a settlement, not as a way to gather goods rapidly.
One way to temper stripmining as a harvest means and prevent settlements from doing their own preventive stripping might be to apply diminishing returns.
So after all the accumulated goods have been grabbed (or spilled on the ground), every 10 minutes spent by the raiders does the same damage, but there's less and less booty found. There's only so many stud cattle and they're killed early.
So the first 10 minutes they get a full hour's production and do 10% damage. The next 10 minutes they get less production (maybe 90%, maybe only (90%)^2 or 81%, depending on how fast you to want it to be less profitable. Whatever works best.). And every additional 10 minutes they do 10% more damage and get less booty.
The damaged farm site produces only a fraction of its production thereafter, until it is repaired by the owner. So a farm with 80% damage only produces 20% of its normal production each hour.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The power of Stripmining.
- This I am more concerned about. Stripmining is meant to provide a way to inflict harm on a settlement, not as a way to gather goods rapidly.
One way to temper stripmining as a harvest means and prevent settlements from doing their own preventive stripping might be to apply diminishing returns.
So after all the accumulated goods have been grabbed (or spilled on the ground), every 10 minutes spent by the raiders does the same damage, but there's less and less booty found. There's only so many stud cattle and they're killed early.
So the first 10 minutes they get a full hour's production and do 10% damage. The next 10 minutes they get less production (maybe 90%, maybe only (90%)^2 or 81%, depending on how fast you to want it to be less profitable. Whatever works best.). And every additional 10 minutes they do 10% more damage and get less booty.
The damaged farm site produces only a fraction of its production thereafter, until it is repaired by the owner. So a farm with 80% damage only produces 20% of its normal production each hour.
I very much like where that is going, but I wonder if they need any additional reward at all? Might it be enough reward to simply take whatever is in the outpost on arrival instead?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems to me there are three main issues being discussed here:
Thank you for engaging the community Tork and GW.
I very much like where that is going, but I wonder if they need any additional reward at all? Might it be enough reward to simply take whatever is in the outpost on arrival instead?The power of Stripmining.
- This I am more concerned about. Stripmining is meant to provide a way to inflict harm on a settlement, not as a way to gather goods rapidly.
One way to temper stripmining as a harvest means and prevent settlements from doing their own preventive stripping might be to apply diminishing returns.
So after all the accumulated goods have been grabbed (or spilled on the ground), every 10 minutes spent by the raiders does the same damage, but there's less and less booty found. There's only so many stud cattle and they're killed early.
So the first 10 minutes they get a full hour's production and do 10% damage. The next 10 minutes they get less production (maybe 90%, maybe only (90%)^2 or 81%, depending on how fast you to want it to be less profitable. Whatever works best.). And every additional 10 minutes they do 10% more damage and get less booty.
The damaged farm site produces only a fraction of its production thereafter, until it is repaired by the owner. So a farm with 80% damage only produces 20% of its normal production each hour.
Or stripmining, instead of increasing yield, can damage the outpost while "creating" a means of transportation for the goods, such as wagons. By having the cost of creating the outpost slightly greater that the cost of outright creating wagons, it creates a benefit for the raiders while insuring the owning community does not utilize that tactic (or does so at a loss).
Even without the idea of wagons, the raiders could "harvest" the resources used to create the outpost (with a slight loss).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I'm going to talk about not raiding now.
Going forward with the GUI: It will be 2014 please let's move beyond well-defined square buttons in a skill bar. What about really cool looking (shaded for depth perception?) pictures of the action that are whatever shape they organically happen to be? Like a foreshortened spear stabbing out of the computer screen at you for a thrusting move. A picture of a fist or a dagger dripping blood without the background squares; there are other ways to contrast.
Especially if there was a small amount of animation in the icon as you used the skill. The dagger blade twists, the greatsword comes down in a mighty cleave, the gas and sparkles swirl around as you refresh etc.
If you need it in a square for placement and alignment make the negative space transparent. Because obviously, every element of the GUI should come with the option to drag it wherever on the screen we like it.
I've always mentally pictured a red health globe with a thin bar over the top half representing how much stamina you have that refills every 6 seconds. I haven't made up my mind if a timer should be an option for the stamina bar for tactical planning. But I like the option to see the numbers of current/maximum for both.
Is that a radar in the bottom right corner? That is a whole thread by itself.
What about the issue of turning off helmets/cloaks but still "wearing" them and benefitting from whatever they provide.
Does turning them off save a measurable amount of computing effort that can be used to increase performance?
Are we going for so much realism that we're not going to have the option to turn off cloaks?
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Goblin Squad Member
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the raiders could "harvest" the resources used to create the outpost (with a slight loss).
This would work well in a system that allowed OPs to be "upgraded". Improved OPs have increases of various sorts such as yield or material type/quality, which in turn makes the OP a more valuable target for raiding...and the increased resources necessary to build and upgrade them, makes them a more valuable target to stripmining raiders.
Settlements have no motive to raid their own OPs because of the net loss.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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It seems to me there are three main issues being discussed here:Thank you for engaging the community Tork and GW.
I very much like where that is going, but I wonder if they need any additional reward at all? Might it be enough reward to simply take whatever is in the outpost on arrival instead?The power of Stripmining.
- This I am more concerned about. Stripmining is meant to provide a way to inflict harm on a settlement, not as a way to gather goods rapidly.
One way to temper stripmining as a harvest means and prevent settlements from doing their own preventive stripping might be to apply diminishing returns.
So after all the accumulated goods have been grabbed (or spilled on the ground), every 10 minutes spent by the raiders does the same damage, but there's less and less booty found. There's only so many stud cattle and they're killed early.
So the first 10 minutes they get a full hour's production and do 10% damage. The next 10 minutes they get less production (maybe 90%, maybe only (90%)^2 or 81%, depending on how fast you to want it to be less profitable. Whatever works best.). And every additional 10 minutes they do 10% more damage and get less booty.
The damaged farm site produces only a fraction of its production thereafter, until it is repaired by the owner. So a farm with 80% damage only produces 20% of its normal production each hour.
Or stripmining, instead of increasing yield, can damage the outpost while "creating" a means of transportation for the goods, such as wagons. By having the cost of creating the outpost slightly greater that the cost of outright creating wagons, it creates a benefit for the raiders while insuring the owning community does not utilize that tactic (or does so at a loss).
Even without the idea of wagons, the raiders could "harvest" the resources used to create the outpost (with a slight loss).
Not a problem. Thats crowdforging for ya! Thanks for your help!
Modeling this out with Stephen in the office and input from you guys it feels like we are moving in the right direction. We are going to start putting more numbers in tomorrow but if we park strip-mining for a moment I think we are ok with the rest of the mechanics. Notably because its such a hassle to move bulk goods that the advantages of capturing an outpost that is super-full because noone has emptied it in a while a minimal.
I am quite liking this wagon creation vibe too... Applying the resources from the outpost to help remove what you got from the outpost bank is potentially much tidier than continueing to get a huge payout from the outpost...
Anyway. Thinking about this will probably consume my evening now. OH THANKS! ;P
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Goblin Squad Member
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If creating wagons from craft materials is already a developed craft skill for players, combat raiders with bulk goods also making wagons doesn't fit game mechanics logically. Also let a trained extractor fashion a wagon out of a wood harvest in case you find a mothernode. A cleric can whittle leather armor into wheels and rusty swords the bed of a wagon. I don't see why there should be the one exception at outposts to the rule that players have to craft and drive transport using skills they trained and normal production facilities.
#defending crafter jobs
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Goblin Squad Member
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If creating wagons from craft materials is already a developed craft skill for players, combat raiders with bulk goods also making wagons doesn't fit game mechanics logically. Why not make a cart out of a wood harvest in case you find a mothernode? I don't see why there should be the one exception to the rule that players have to craft and drive transport using skills they trained.
I'd think that the outposts might have a wagon or two around for local workings - those logs don't haul themselves to the mill for sawing. And those NPC laborers in the huts nearby? I'll bet they have a few oxen. It's not unreasonable that the longer the raiders search the local area, the more stuff like that they might turn up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If creating wagons from craft materials is already a developed craft skill for players, combat raiders with bulk goods also making wagons doesn't fit game mechanics logically. Also let a trained extractor fashion a wagon out of a wood harvest in case you find a mothernode. A cleric can whittle leather armor into wheels and rusty swords the bed of a wagon. I don't see why there should be the one exception at outposts to the rule that players have to craft and drive transport using skills they trained.
#defending crafter jobs
So why not just require creation of an OP to take the same (or at least the same) resources as making wagons, "strip mining" harvests those resources from the OP, damaging it in the process (maybe using a salvage skill); allowing the harvesting up to but not including the amount of resources it took to build the OP. Then, the same "node" that allowed the building of an OP, allows the building of other units such as siege weapons and wagons...by someone trained to do so. I like the idea of requiring raiders to have skills in order to maximize the reward or raiding.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Moving large heavy things requires trained crafters to use specifically refined materials and time and coin at buildings dedicated for the production of goods. Those vehicles have to be driven by characters who spent xp and coin and time and merit badges? in that skill.
Except, you know, for a raid. Everywhere else in all circumstances but not raiding an outpost.
It renders production facilities unnecessary. Do you know anyone that can tear down a house and build a ballista from it? It's a matter of continuity in game systems.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Moving large heavy things requires trained crafters to use specifically refined materials and time and coin at buildings dedicated for the production of goods. Those vehicles have to be driven by characters who spent xp and coin and time and merit badges? in that skill.
Except, you know, for a raid. Everywhere else in all circumstances but not raiding an outpost.
It's a matter of continuity in game systems.
Why not require those things too? I am all for requiring bandits/raider to have to train skills that benefit their play-style too. They do not after all have to "strip mine" the OP, especially if they do not have the skills to do so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why not require those things too?
I do want to require all those things. It's more than skills trained.
Refined materials - I don't think I could knock down a barn and build an onager. Refiners need their part in making wagons, siege, etc. so their skill isn't devalued.
Production facilities - an important link in the production chain that GW has put a lot of work into already. Building those things requires special tools not kept on a cotton farm. It also needs to be an actual link in how siege and wagons get where they're going or the economy is destabilized commensurately; and settlements lose out.
I just say if you want siege and wagons at an outpost, build them at a place with the right tools from the real refined materials they need and drive them on roads to where you're fighting. Seeing that convoy might be the only warning a company has for the coming fight and attackers shouldn't get an unbalanced advantage by skipping that risk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why not require those things too?I do want to require all those things. It's more than skills trained.
Refined materials - I don't think I could knock down a barn and build an onager. Refiners need their part in making wagons, siege, etc. so their skill isn't devalued.
Production facilities - an important link in the production chain that GW has put a lot of work into already. Building those things requires special tools not kept on a cotton farm. It also needs to be an actual link in how siege and wagons get where they're going or the economy is destabilized commensurately; and settlements lose out.
I just say if you want siege and wagons at an outpost, build them at a place with the right tools from the real refined materials they need and drive them on roads to where you're fighting. Seeing that convoy might be the only warning a company has for the coming fight and attackers shouldn't get an unbalanced advantage by skipping that risk.
Agreed, in light of your points, I think I definitely prefer 'strip mining' being the ability to "mine" the resources used to build the OP...as opposed to just destroying it. Leave crafting to crafting in the appropriate order and roles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's a thought. What if stripmining produced low quality resources? You would get whatever resource was normally produced, but it would be twice as heavy or something.
Or, strip mining a outpost gives the raiders "Raided Stone" or "Raided Wood" which when brought back home needs to be processed into normal bulk material before it can be used. So raiding can produce needed materials, but they will clog your refineries if you get too much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Raiding as presented does appear to be be a low risk high reward option, which is all kinds of wrong.
The actual reward doesn't sound all that out of place with the actual concept raiding is supposed to represent. The problem is in the risk category. Further more, most of the obvious ways to increase the risk do so to a degree of almost making raiding not worth the effort.
How about instead of changing the mechanics associated raiding, making the retaliation a less costly option. Feuds and Wars and the like are costly affairs for the initiator. If the cost to initiate a Feud or War are reduced by an proportional to the 'damage' a group has done to your organization frequent raiding could put you are much higher risk of being involved in a much larger conflict against a much better prepared group.
Just a thought.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's a thought. What if stripmining produced low quality resources?
This fits with the fact that resources used in crafting will have a range of quality. Not weight, but rather a value which affects how powerful of items (buildings in the case of bulk wood?) that it can be used to make.
(July 3 blog)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed, in light of your points
Oh my gosh I WON THE INTERNET!!!
For real, thank you for a good crowdforging debate.
The term "strip mining" to our modern brains conjures images of the results of industrial ravaging of forests like a buzz cut or taking off the top of a mountain where there's literally nothing left. "Strip mining" requires industrial machinery, what this blog described is good old fashioned (and more world appropriate) plundering.
But I don't understand how plundering all the cotton, milking all the cows, or cutting down all the timber would lead to naught but a smoking hole in the ground.
I prefer the idea of diminishing returns each tick of plundering as it's potential is drained until an outpost is at 0% productivity. But the buildings are still there, non-operational, and require resources to get back to 100%.
If you wanted to leave the outpost as a smoking hole in the ground denying the parent settlement those resources, just knock it down into rubble. That will require more from the attackers but also be even more costly in time and material to replace and return to 100%.
I think that way still leaves outposts' ability to provide resources for a settlement semi-permanent like GW wants (it will be costly and consume time and labor to restore to 100% productivity) even if the structure remains. But also provides raiders more tactical flexibility depending on their bigger goals and more realism for players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Raiding as presented does appear to be be a low risk high reward option, which is all kinds of wrong.
The actual reward doesn't sound all that out of place with the actual concept raiding is supposed to represent. The problem is in the risk category. Further more, most of the obvious ways to increase the risk do so to a degree of almost making raiding not worth the effort.
I may have misread but the reward part is pretty low in take home goods because of the nature of the goods; low value, heavy, large supply, need many other players to get the haul back home, and many of the bandits will likely be killed on the way back to the settlement/hideout. That said, the real reward is the damage done to the operation and depriving the owners of the outpost the bulk goods produced. Raids will have a time and a place...raiding a little bit all the time will not produce the results needed prior to a war, which will require raiding a lot for a little bit. It's the gut punch to take away resources right before the attack, not the loot carried away.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's a thought. What if stripmining produced low quality resources?This fits with the fact that resources used in crafting will have a range of quality. Not weight, but rather a value which affects how powerful of items (buildings in the case of bulk wood?) that it can be used to make.
(July 3 blog)
In the case of outposts and bulk goods it is literal weight. The product comes in variable purity like 40% or 80%. TO have an equal amount after refining there is and extra 60% useless weight or extra 20% useless weight respectively to haul to the refinery. The 80% stuff is a smaller, easier haul and raiders might not try to rob 20% purity goods at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the case of outposts and bulk goods it is literal weight. The product comes in variable purity like 40% or 80%. TO have an equal amount after refining there is and extra 60% useless weight or extra 20% useless weight respectively to haul to the refinery. The 80% stuff is a smaller, easier haul and raiders might not try to rob 20% purity goods at all.Here's a thought. What if stripmining produced low quality resources?This fits with the fact that resources used in crafting will have a range of quality. Not weight, but rather a value which affects how powerful of items (buildings in the case of bulk wood?) that it can be used to make.
(July 3 blog)
That's kind of the point I was getting to. So let's say there's a mine producing 80% purity bulk metal. Raiders come along, kill the guards, steal the stuff, then start strip-mining. The stuff they mine will be 40% purity (or something), thereby reducing the value of strip-mining for profit. You still get useful stuff, it's just less useful than stuff you can get normally. So raiders who raid because they don't have outposts themselves *cough*Bludwolfs*cough* will be less inclined to strip-mine. Strip-mining will be for those who desperately need that extra bit of stuff, or those who really want to hurt a settlement (hopefully.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really don't want to spend game time in open-ended guard patrols where usually nothing even happens, that's too much like a job.
Think more about Planning raids at coordinated times per the lead planner, but maybe needing to respond to a reported attack. DO you recapture the resource or capture the caravan?
Caravanning materials from an outpost to a settlement 2-3 times a day -day after day after day- split among a few people who happen to be online at the time to prevent that stockpile from getting raided also sounds like a job.
Other will enjoy the challenge to see that this happens, esp. if the concept of stoarge is implemented. Players should not be running caravan step by step, but setting them up, arranging for NPC guards (are 3 enough is 6 to many). Others sweeping in to protect lopads under attack or recapture stolen loads.
As has been said we don't know the balance of all these factors but I hope the devs who can play out outpost maintaining and raiding take these factors into account; that most players (I believe) won't want one section of how we spend our time in the sandbox game to start feeling less optional because it's so vital to settlements.
This will not be right at EE. This will be tuned as settlements, PoI, outposts, hideouts, and other destinations are in place and characters interact. This will need to be tuned. If settlements are not here by OE, then OE should be advertised as BETA and tuning will go on. GW should not publish tune points but that they will adjust/adapt.
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I think there is needed an intermediate between outpost and settlement.
It is good to have an easy build, easy raid site. This should only be raid what is stored. Main defenders are NPC, depending on how much the 'owner' wants to buy. PC can be in place, but that is boring.
Second building is a higher cost, higher to destroy facility, but one that can increase or decrease return. It should have NPC response, but also easier for characters to reinforce themselves, mercenary characters, and NPC company reinforcements (such reinforcements need to be produced before encounter, and feed between encounters).
Rievers attack site against strong, maybe layered defense. They raid but they can, with some effort/investment, can get more out (damaging the resource level of the hex.) At some point they stop and start destroying the structure, but this also has costs of equipment even if only axes, mauls, and crow bars.
Settlements are harder to attack (layered defense), Allies can come in or try to beak siege. Attackers, defenders, and siege breakers have costs of Personnel, characters, support, logistics and environment.
If attacker NPCs have left their home, what escalations are happening. What happens with all the combat at target\; do escalations happen. If the settlement is under attack or siege, what happens to providing NPC, supplies to more remote sites.
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Dang this is going to be fun! Finally some real grit; not jus twhat single individual get attacked on road. Can I bring my old team to this? (My in that I was part, not that I was lead -- my role was scout and second wave (loss of replaceable resources right behind NPC wave to open the way). Ultimately the specific of the rules determine what in needed.
I can see a role as Priest of Desna, shielding travelers; a gnome crafter/mage with high end weapons/armor/Misc magic, a soldier leading a raid of NPC scouting a field, military engineer preparing that same field or reducing the defense; town council deciding the distribution of limited/rare resources; or the merchant using those alloted resources for an increase of what is most needed (selling to those with the most need for the greatest return).
Alts, but that is for another thread.
lam
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's late, but I have to answer Tork Shaw's various posts. Chopping down the seedlings and stealing the unfinished planks ramps up the production of a lumber operation? By six? If you're looting the stored inventory that's, well, stealing the winter supplies. It's a separate action. As you're absolutely destroying the place productivity goes up?!You mean to tell me your average Roman citizen woke up once the Vandals were gone and said "Honey, I know. We just endured three days of slaughter, rapine and plunder. Look at the bright side! Our city's a smoking ruin, but there's all this brand new furniture, pottery and baby carriages! Apparently those bozos couldn't carry it all! Think of it as Christmas on a volcano!" Dude, your office whisperers are low on blood sugar. By the Cold Gods that stare down upon us, buy 'em some muffins.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, as I see a 'Productive' Raid happening.
Maximum people that can 'raid' an Outpost: 50.
People we're taking on the 'Raid': 80.
40 'Raiders', full-combat Specc, designed for maximum carnage, take the Outpost and keep pounding any Defenders, PC or NPC, into the dirt while the remaining 10 people assaulting the Outpost start their gathering routines.
8 'Gatherers', minimal-combat Specc, designed to harvest as many different resources as fast as they can and as efficiently as they can.
2 'Porters', built to carry as much as possible and still move at a good speed to ferry goods from the Outpost to the remaining 30 people sitting just outside of the Outpost.
The remaining 30 people are split up further.
20 'Defenders', full-combat Specc, designed for maximum defence and Group-Survivability to frustrate and slow-down anyone attacking the Caravan.
10 'Wagoneers', minimal-combat Specc, designed to be able to carry as much loot as they can, either on their person, on mounts or in wagons, which they will take from the 'Porters' and assign amongst themselves.
As soon as the Wagoneers and Porters are carrying their maximum load while still moving at a respectable speed, the Defenders and 10 of the Raiders bug-out for home, while the remaining 30 Raiders stick around and keep the wheels turning, just to distract anybody still coming to defend the Outpost, then bug out in 3 groups and take separate routes back to their home.
Angry Defenders that are coming to the Outpost will hopefully snag on the remaining Raiders, and if they can destroy them, will think "Hey, we got the bad guys!" while the bulk of the forces still make it home with all the loot.
The Defenders and the Raiders who joined up with them can keep everything but a Dragon from killing the Wagoneers and taking the loot, but there's the risk that people carrying too much will slow the whole group down, in which case particularly vengeful people who got robbed will be able to track you down, catch up and maybe even start sniping your asses, or worst still, 'train' an enemy NPC Warband onto you for revenge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would hope the maximum number of people who can raid an outpost is determined by how many people can gather in one place before their server node crashes. There should be no limitations on how many people you can bring to a fight in an Open World game.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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One of my early thoughts was that raiders could rapidly get a different resource from the one the outpost normally created, at the cost of doing 'semi-permanent' damage to the outpost. This suggestion is intended to replace "strip-mining" as a means of damaging the outpost and taking stuff.
An orchard, for example, could provide lumber, while a timber stand could produce charcoal. The problem I ran into was that I couldn't find things that made sense to get from a razed wheat field or coal mine.
The concept is similar enough to the idea of dismantling the outpost and taking the materials used to build it (with some material destroyed in the process) that it might make sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Question: How will the notification of raids be handled?
If a raid is taking place on an outpost your company controls, will you be notified (ie. warning in global or company chat)?
Or, would you be unaware of a raid unless you have a PC there?
If there are NPC guards, and they could raise the alarm, what would be the time frame (delay) between first contact and the alarm being raised?
Could there be some kind of a magic device installed, as an early warning system? This item would obviously be expensive, can be looted or targeted and destroyed before it sends the alarm (much smaller delay than guards, alpha strike and instant kill on item probably required).
What I hope we don't have is the global chat warning like there is in Darkfall UW, where anyone, anywhere can respond without any justification for that knowledge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I hope we don't have is the global chat warning like there is in Darkfall UW, where anyone, anywhere can respond without any justification for that knowledge.
Agreed. I feel that if a group of raiders are skilled enough that they manage to orchestrate a raid without anyone noticing, they should be rewarded for it. I don't mind if this requires an action on the part of the raiders, but I would like to see some skill play involved.
For example, when the raiders attack an outpost a small number of messanger NPCs try and run away from the outpost. These messengers fan out and away from the outpost, and if interacted with will announce in local chat what is happening at the outpost. They also try and make their way to any other holdings that the owners of the outpost might have, and should they get there an announcement on the owners global channels is pushed out.
If the raiders can catch the messengers before they meet anyone then, without outside player interaction, the raiders can loot and pillage without anyone being the wiser. If a messenger gets away and meets a neutral party then the neutral party can choose whether or not to inform the outposts owner. And if one of the outposts owners meet one of the messengers when they are out and about they can themselves put out the alarm.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I hope we don't have is the global chat warning like there is in Darkfall UW, where anyone, anywhere can respond without any justification for that knowledge.Agreed. I feel that if a group of raiders are skilled enough that they manage to orchestrate a raid without anyone noticing, they should be rewarded for it. I don't mind if this requires an action on the part of the raiders, but I would like to see some skill play involved.
For example, when the raiders attack an outpost a small number of messanger NPCs try and run away from the outpost. These messengers fan out and away from the outpost, and if interacted with will announce in local chat what is happening at the outpost. They also try and make their way to any other holdings that the owners of the outpost might have, and should they get there an announcement on the owners global channels is pushed out.
If the raiders can catch the messengers before they meet anyone then, without outside player interaction, the raiders can loot and pillage without anyone being the wiser. If a messenger gets away and meets a neutral party then the neutral party can choose whether or not to inform the outposts owner. And if one of the outposts owners meet one of the messengers when they are out and about they can themselves put out the alarm.
Good idea
That has been one of the big discussions in Eve. Removing local chat... that way you have no idea who is in the solar system. Granted Darkfall is different in that it is just a global chat, but darkfall is smaller.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I hope we don't have is the global chat warning like there is in Darkfall UW, where anyone, anywhere can respond without any justification for that knowledge.
Ryan addressed this in one of his previous posts:
If you don't have automated in-game warnings when your territory is being attacked, players will simply create out of game workarounds to achieve the same level of information.ie. bots or alts parked at every outpost that generate tweets or text messages to alert settlement members.
As for strip-mining, I really like what Andius suggested earlier in the thread:
A "raid" is quick, profitable for the raiders and just a set-back to the owners.
A "stripmine" or "pillage" is longer, expensive for the raiders, and completely destroys the resource.
Having an option that is profitable for the raiders and destroys the outpost tilts the balance between creation and destruction so far that you'll end up with all destroyers and no builders.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd actually prefer a Global Chat Channel, or Private Channels, but that's purely because of my experiences with WoW where I'm often the only one of my Guild online for hours at an end.
I'd quit without the insanity of General Channel and a couple of Private Channels popping off in the background to keep me entertained.
Perhaps like EvE, have channels, but not related to the maps. Instead, you have a Global Channel where a mod can sit in and moderate, chat with folks and generally be the 'GM' for the players while we're running around being stabbed by the NPCs/Other Players/Blue Lightning Bolts On A Cloudless Sunny Day.
Anyone found abusing the channel, either by abusing other players, spamming topics unrelated to Pathfinder Online or whatever the GM/Mod feels is inappropriate will be banned for 10 minutes, then 30, then an hour, then a week.
I dunno, I like the idea that even when I'm alone in the wilderness, exploring uncharted territories and evading Orc patrols, I can have witty (or drunken) banter with a couple of other folks going on in the background.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan addressed this in one of his previous posts:
If you don't have automated in-game warnings when your territory is being attacked, players will simply create out of game workarounds to achieve the same level of information.ie. bots or alts parked at every outpost that generate tweets or text messages to alert settlement members.
I'm not criticizing your post, but his answer: It is a non answer, and has nothing to do with addressing the question.
There will always be a work around, for everything, so does that mean you (not you, but the generic "you") do nothing?
Yes of course players will use TS or Vent, but that does not mean that the game's system needs to be coded to give out an automated warning.
As for strip-mining, I really like what Andius suggested earlier in the thread:
A "raid" is quick, profitable for the raiders and just a set-back to the owners.
A "stripmine" or "pillage" is longer, expensive for the raiders, and completely destroys the resource.Having an option that is profitable for the raiders and destroys the outpost tilts the balance between creation and destruction so far that you'll end up with all destroyers and no builders.
If raiders are willing to expend the resources (influence, materials and time) I don't see why they don't have the choice to do both?
Isn't gaining maximum profits and leaving a smoldering hole in the ground also a choice?
If my group is contracted to assault a rival's outpost, for the purpose of removing it, I would also want to extract as much profit from it as well. That might even have been a part of our negotiation in the contract.
Settlement Manager(s) grant UNC freedom of action within their land; what ever loot we get is our payment; we evict the unwanted party and destroy their outpost; Settlement Manager(s) send their own group in to set up their outpost.