Please clarify how a mounted overrun works.

[Mathius]

trample:

When you attempt to overrun an opponent while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you. Your mount may make one hoof attack against any target you knock down, gaining the standard +4 bonus on attack rolls against prone targets.

overrun:

As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.

When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has.

Questions
1.On a mounted overrun can a rider attempt to make an overun or can only the mount attempt it?

2. If the rider can attempt an overrun does the mount provoke an AoO from moving through a foes square/threatened area?

3. Whose action must be used to activate trample and mounted onslaught?

I can understand a ruling that say a mount's move action to move counts as your move witch would allow a rider to make overrun attempt but I think it makes more sense to forbid a rider from doing so or use the 3.5 rule where the mount's size and str were used instead of the rider's. I am also unclear as to whose action is used with the trample feat for the same reason things are unclear with ride by attack. It is not really an issue if a rider can not overrun a foe but if he can then I am not sure what the intent of the feat was.

Things I already assume
1. If a mount makes an overrun then the rider may also pass through the foes square.
I base this on the charge through feat and that it has been added to the charger archetype for animal companions.

2. A rider does not provoke AoO because the movement is not his but his mounts.

3. A mount may pass through a square as well if its rider succeeds in an overrun. I base this on it being really stupid if it does not but I suppose that it is possible that both rider and mount must separately make and pass at an overrun.

4. If a rider can not make an overrun trample and mounted onslaught refer to the mount's overrun in the same way that ride by attack refers to the mount's charge.

[Mathius]

Please hit FAQ on this or quote the rules that show how this works.

[Mathius]

Thank you all for the FAQ clicks so far. Please add some more.

[blahpers]

This really doesn't seem necessary, but if it's confusing to some people then maybe a designer will post about it.

[Necrovox]

Alright, so when you choose to overrun while mounted, does it take yours or your mount's standard action? Can you charge whilst mounted, have your mount overrun and you attack with a single melee attack, gaining bonuses from prone+charge (+6)?
And does Mounted Combat negate the attack that would be made by the AOO that would be made for the overrun attempt?

[Mathius]

All very good questions. The rules are unclear. This the reason for the FAQ request. Hit FAQ on the first post please.

[blahpers]

Necrovox wrote:

Alright, so when you choose to overrun while mounted, does it take yours or your mount's standard action? Can you charge whilst mounted, have your mount overrun and you attack with a single melee attack, gaining bonuses from prone+charge (+6)?

And does Mounted Combat negate the attack that would be made by the AOO that would be made for the overrun attempt?

1. Your mount makes the overrun. How are you going to overrun someone from atop a horse?

2. Your mount can overrun someone as part of a charge. If that knocks the target prone, you can make your attack and gain the benefit of both your mount's charge and attacking a prone target. You even still get +1 bonus for higher ground. (However, don't be surprised if your GM applies a situational modifier or even a Ride check if you try to do something extremely unlikely, such as using a dagger to attack the prone target from atop a horse.)
3. Mounted Combat can negate any attack that hits your mount, but only once per round. Whether the attack is an attack of opportunity is irrelevant.

[Mathius]

@blahpers: I think you are exactly correct but I can find no rules stating such. In 3.5 a rider could make an overrun or bullrush but used the mounts size and str. I can find no such rules in PF. That means that either mount does the overrun with it's own CMB or the rider does. A mount certainly can but it is unclear if a mount's move counts as "your move" for purposes of overrun. If it does, there is no language that lets you use the mount's size and str. If one can not make an overrun then the language of trample has the same problem as ride by attack. I would assume that it has the same solution. If a rider can overrun (with or with mount's str and size) then question arises on whom they meant to do the overrun with that feat.

I lean toward mount must do overrun with its own CMB. It would make no sense to have a rider use overrun and the presence of the mount mean nothing except maybe a hoof attack.

I would love to be able to use my BAB and my mount's size and str.

[Neo2151]

Mathius wrote:

I would love to be able to use my BAB and my mount's size and str.

Seems reasonable to me. After all, the mount isn't overrunning because it wants to - It's overrunning because you, the rider, are guiding it and telling it where to go, how fast to go, etc.

[Phosphorus]

1. I think it is the mount that is performing the overrun.

2. See answer to 1.

3. Both the rider and the mount take actions - The rider uses 'Fight with a combat-trained mount' from the Ride skill to tell the mount to charge and trample. The mount then performs the overrun.

However, this is just my interpretation. FAQ'd

[Mathius]

Thank you for the FAQ. I had not actually thought about your answer to number 3. Since that can be do with a free action the rider would still have his full allotment of actions but it would make a difference if the rider was daze/stunned/otherwise incapable of making a free action.

Keep them FAQS rolling.

I think most people agree that a rider can not actually overrun but the rules for overrun say "your move" not your move action and the mounted combat rules state the you use your mount to move so maybe you can use your mount's move action and your standard action to do an overrun.

In 3.5 it worked exactly that way but you gained your mount's str and size for the overrun attempt.

There is absolutely no language in PF like that. A mount can certainly do an overrun but it is unclear if a rider can. If a rider can then the trample feat may require it to be the rider's overrun and not the mount's.

On the other hand if a rider can not overrun then trample has the same issues as ride by attack and the same solution.

Though common sense would dictate this there is also no rule that says that a rider can go through a foes square if a mount performs and overrun or vice versa.

I think that a rider using his own str and size would make little sense but it would actually not be a bad thing to allow a rider to use his mount's move action, str and size and his own standard action, bab and feats. This would require that trample and mounted onslaught use the rider's standard action but that would still make sense. You would even still have the flexibility to have the mount make an overrun but it would not benefit from trample. This would useful with ride by attack if there is not charge line that does not go through the foe's space.

[Mathius]

A shameless attempt to gain more FAQs.

[Mathius]

Can I get an FAQ whoo hoo.

[Mathius]

Been a bit but I would love to see a FAQ on this.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Would love to see an answer to:

Which phrase is more accurate? "Your on a charging mount, able to shoot arrows, cast spells, or spear the enemy you are charging" or "You are charging on a mount, and can only do things allowed per the charge rules".

[blahpers]

The first one, subject to the usual caveats (such as concentration check for spells), and you take the AC penalty for the charge regardless of what you're doing.

[Gherrick]

I don't feel the rules as-is make sense, let alone achieve the sense of balance I am guessing the devs were aiming for.

Having the mount be the "primary" charger still hurts my sensibilities unless the mount is doing the attacking. I'd rather see the rules divide mount and rider into primary/secondary, where the primary attacker gets all of the the charge bonuses/penalties, but the secondary gets fewer or none of the bonuses/penalties.

For example, if the rider is the primary attacker, the mount perhaps might not take the AC penalty if it doesn't attack, etc. The mount itself should not require a ton of feats to allow a rider to perform combat maneuvers, specifically overrun.

Perhaps add one extra feat after Mounted Combat called "Improved Mounted Combat" that simply allows you to use your charge- and maneuver-related feats while mounted, although, IMO, they already should be.

[blahpers]

Hey, give it a shot and see how it plays. Maybe hold a jousting tournament or have the PCs participate in a cavalry charge (on either or both sides). There's nothing sacred about these rules, PFS aside.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

I really don't want this to just slide under the carpet. The mounted combat system is a bit... fuddled and would really like to see things clarified!

[DocShock]

I really want a FAQ for this as well. I'm building a fell rider cavalier from the advanced race guide, and how overrun works is really important to that build. It makes sense to me that the mount (not the rider) is the one making the overrun, but then what the heck does it mean in the Advanced Race Guide when the fell rider gets rampage:

Advanced Race Guide wrote:

"Rampage (Ex): At 3rd level, a fell rider gains Trample as a bonus feat. The fell rider receives a +2 bonus on overrun attempts made while mounted. In addition, his mount gains a +2 bonus on damage rolls when making hoof attacks or using the trample monster ability, even when not overrunning. This ability replaces cavalier's charge."

Emphasis mine.

The rider is the one getting the bonus, right? And he only gets them while mounted? So is the rider the one making the overrun, even though he's mounted? Who's CMB do you use with the +2 bonus? And if it's the rider, can I take improved overrun and greater overrun and have those effects apply to my mounted overrun? The fell rider archetype seems pretty weak if you're trading in all the charge stuff for an overrun that provokes AoOs and doesn't trigger AoOs for you or your teammates.

Please give us an FAQ for this, it's really confusing and extremely important to the cavalier and fell rider.

[SoonerTed]

DocShock wrote:

I really want a FAQ for this as well. I'm building a fell rider cavalier from the advanced race guide, and how overrun works is really important to that build. It makes sense to me that the mount (not the rider) is the one making the overrun, but then what the heck does it mean in the Advanced Race Guide when the fell rider gets rampage:

Advanced Race Guide wrote:

"Rampage (Ex): At 3rd level, a fell rider gains Trample as a bonus feat. The fell rider receives a +2 bonus on overrun attempts made while mounted. In addition, his mount gains a +2 bonus on damage rolls when making hoof attacks or using the trample monster ability, even when not overrunning. This ability replaces cavalier's charge."

Emphasis mine.

The rider is the one getting the bonus, right? And he only gets them while mounted? So is the rider the one making the overrun, even though he's mounted? Who's CMB do you use with the +2 bonus? And if it's the rider, can I take improved overrun and greater overrun and have those effects apply to my mounted overrun? The fell rider archetype seems pretty weak if you're trading in all the charge stuff for an overrun that provokes AoOs and doesn't trigger AoOs for you or your teammates.

Please give us an FAQ for this, it's really confusing and extremely important to the cavalier and fell rider.

Mounted Combat rules are in desperate need of clarification. Perhaps we could get a Player's Companion or Campaign Setting that helps deal with all the issues of rider vs mount. In our campaign, we play with a house rule that the rider occupies all spaces occupied by the mount, to simplify reach issues.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

That is actually not a house rule, but in the core rule book.

[blahpers]

Yup. You share space with your mount.